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Post by partickpotter on Jan 9, 2019 19:34:33 GMT
The consequences of not doing so are not clear. Maybe just series of meaningless words will suffice BUT isn't the real problem that it opens the door for other MPs to offer ' solutions to the mess" and ' a compromise to which everyone can agree" The real problem, according to you, is that our elected representatives have a say in the biggest issue facing this country since the second world war!!! You certainly hate parliamentary sovereignty then don’t you! No wonder you wanted out of the EU, you believe in an all powerful executive who cannot be held to account by Parliament. You don't really don't really understand what has happened here do you. Parliament decided (by voting unanimously) that the decision on leaving the EU would be made by a public referendum. As part of that they agreed they would implement the outcome of that referendum. Now Parliament is backtracking on that commitment. A disgrace. And I'm speaking as someone who voted to remain. |
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Post by partickpotter on Jan 9, 2019 19:38:42 GMT
No, you give it out on here as if you care about sovereignty and democracy but you say MPs having a say over brexit is wrong!? It is staggering how hypocritical you are. Unfortunately as has been said the political class are part of the problem, and the specific problem as we all know is that the majority of MPs don't actually want Brexit, despite the promises made to them. No point going round in circles, you either get that and it matters to you, or you don't. No - it's not the Political class that is the problem. It's you and the 52% who voted to leave. If you'd voted the right way we wouldn't be in this situation. Please show a little respect for the educated, sophisticated, honourable members of Parliament who are doing their level best to correct a huge error made by, and lets call a spade a spade here, a bunch of racist, stupid, dunderheids who have shown they can't be trusted to even put an X in the right box on a voting slip. (edit - typo now corrected!) |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 9, 2019 19:41:00 GMT
It really is a democratic crisis that undermines our democracy..... not just the attempted betrayal of the Referendum decision....but actually, just as importantly, the deceitful manifestos on which the two main parties were elected have been discarded......and politicians are doing so openly..,.it can be interpreted as lying simply to get a job they like and power.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 9, 2019 19:42:50 GMT
Unfortunately as has been said the political class are part of the problem, and the specific problem as we all know is that the majority of MPs don't actually want Brexit, despite the promises made to them. No point going round in circles, you either get that and it matters to you, or you don't. No - it's not the Political class that is the problem. It's you and the 52% who voted to remain. If you'd voted the right way we wouldn't be in this situation. Please show a little respect for the educated, sophisticated, honourable members of Parliament who are doing their level best to correct a huge error made by, and lets call a spade a spade here, a bunch of racist, stupid, dunderheids who have shown they can't be trusted to even put an X in the right box on a voting slip. I get what you mean Partick ( I think that you meant to say " voted to leave") It is alot of people when you think about it. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Jan 9, 2019 19:49:30 GMT
It's all set-up for what I said the other day. All hope is lost, we're heading for a catastrophic, cliff edge, no deal Brexit... Untill the EU come riding to the rescue with a last minute deal - Which is barely different to the current deal May has got planned for us, but it'll have just one or two minor changes & will be sold to us as the greatest deal of all time that we simply must accept, and that'll be that, we'll be remaining under the EU's control just like some of us have said all along. In other words what was previously called a "soft" Brexit now more correctly called Brino. I'm not sure this was inevitable after the referendum, but it certainly was after the General Election. The completely unnecessary General Election, you mean? That's when I smelled a rat. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Jan 9, 2019 19:52:40 GMT
It really is a democratic crisis that undermines our democracy..... not just the attempted betrayal of the Referendum decision....but actually, just as importantly, the deceitful manifestos on which the two main parties were elected have been discarded......and politicians are doing so openly..,.it can be interpreted as lying simply to get a job they like and power. Yet I reckon loads of voters will go back to their traditional loyalties. Pathetic, really. This country has no bollocks whatsoever. |
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Post by wagsastokie on Jan 9, 2019 19:57:35 GMT
Of course all you Remainers voted for this because you knew and were happy with this direction of travel because it was in the manifesto, that you read of course, of the MEP you voted for. France and Germany join forces as a single superpower - The Times "France and Germany are to forge shared defence, foreign and economic policies in an unprecedented “twinning” arrangement regarded as a prototype for the future of the European Union."
"France and Germany also intend to speak with one voice in Brussels, drawing up common positions before pivotal EU summits in an attempt to turn the bloc into a more decisive power on the world stage."Should be interesting to see German tanks on the streets of France trying to keep macron in a job |
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Post by partickpotter on Jan 9, 2019 19:58:54 GMT
No - it's not the Political class that is the problem. It's you and the 52% who voted to remain. If you'd voted the right way we wouldn't be in this situation. Please show a little respect for the educated, sophisticated, honourable members of Parliament who are doing their level best to correct a huge error made by, and lets call a spade a spade here, a bunch of racist, stupid, dunderheids who have shown they can't be trusted to even put an X in the right box on a voting slip. I get what you mean Partick ( I think that you meant to say " voted to leave") It is alot of people when you think about it. Whoops - a Freudian slip! |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Jan 9, 2019 20:25:33 GMT
It's all set-up for what I said the other day. All hope is lost, we're heading for a catastrophic, cliff edge, no deal Brexit... Untill the EU come riding to the rescue with a last minute deal - Which is barely different to the current deal May has got planned for us, but it'll have just one or two minor changes & will be sold to us as the greatest deal of all time that we simply must accept, and that'll be that, we'll be remaining under the EU's control just like some of us have said all along. In other words what was previously called a "soft" Brexit now more correctly called Brino. I'm not sure this was inevitable after the referendum, but it certainly was after the General Election. If it was the General Election that got us into this situation, then I guess Brino/Soft Brexit is the will of the people isn't it? If you believe that the General Election meant there was not going to be a no deal Brexit (and I agree with to you), then this situation is democracy in action. |
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Post by partickpotter on Jan 9, 2019 20:52:08 GMT
In other words what was previously called a "soft" Brexit now more correctly called Brino. I'm not sure this was inevitable after the referendum, but it certainly was after the General Election. If it was the General Election that got us into this situation, then I guess Brino/Soft Brexit is the will of the people isn't it? If you believe that the General Election meant there was not going to be a no deal Brexit (and I agree with to you), then this situation is democracy in action. Not at all. Both main parties stood on platforms to deliver on the referendum result. Be clear Brino does not do that. What happened in the election is that despite the parties' commitments, there was an influx of politicians in both parties who didn't want to honour their own party's commitments. And they haven't. Parliament has therefore decided to act on what it wants to do, ignoring the referendum result they committed to implement. This is an insult to democracy. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 9, 2019 20:54:45 GMT
The real problem, according to you, is that our elected representatives have a say in the biggest issue facing this country since the second world war!!! You certainly hate parliamentary sovereignty then don’t you! No wonder you wanted out of the EU, you believe in an all powerful executive who cannot be held to account by Parliament. You don't really don't really understand what has happened here do you. Parliament decided (by voting unanimously) that the decision on leaving the EU would be made by a public referendum. As part of that they agreed they would implement the outcome of that referendum. Now Parliament is backtracking on that commitment. A disgrace. And I'm speaking as someone who voted to remain. Unless the law changes, on 30 March 2019 we will not be a member of the EU. Which part of that means we are still a member of the EU? |
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 9, 2019 20:56:19 GMT
If it was the General Election that got us into this situation, then I guess Brino/Soft Brexit is the will of the people isn't it? If you believe that the General Election meant there was not going to be a no deal Brexit (and I agree with to you), then this situation is democracy in action. Not at all. Both main parties stood on platforms to deliver on the referendum result. Be clear Brino does not do that. What happened in the election is that despite the parties' commitments, there was an influx of politicians in both parties who didn't want to honour their own party's commitments. And they haven't. Parliament has therefore decided to act on what it wants to do, ignoring the referendum result they committed to implement. This is an insult to democracy. An insult to democracy is not being able to change positions. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2019 21:10:20 GMT
Not at all. Both main parties stood on platforms to deliver on the referendum result. Be clear Brino does not do that. What happened in the election is that despite the parties' commitments, there was an influx of politicians in both parties who didn't want to honour their own party's commitments. And they haven't. Parliament has therefore decided to act on what it wants to do, ignoring the referendum result they committed to implement. This is an insult to democracy. An insult to democracy is not being able to change positions. So I take it that if there is another referendum and Remain win this time you would be perfectly happy for the Leave camp to campaign relentlessly for a third referendum ? After all that is what democracy is all about according to you, it's just a vote on a certain day with a result that can change at any time, and "An insult to democracy is not being able to change positions". This could run ad infinitum if we were to abide by your statement. |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Jan 9, 2019 21:13:02 GMT
If it was the General Election that got us into this situation, then I guess Brino/Soft Brexit is the will of the people isn't it? If you believe that the General Election meant there was not going to be a no deal Brexit (and I agree with to you), then this situation is democracy in action. Not at all. Both main parties stood on platforms to deliver on the referendum result. Be clear Brino does not do that. What happened in the election is that despite the parties' commitments, there was an influx of politicians in both parties who didn't want to honour their own party's commitments. And they haven't. Parliament has therefore decided to act on what it wants to do, ignoring the referendum result they committed to implement. This is an insult to democracy. Which main party had a commitment to a no deal/WTO Brexit in their campaign referendum, if that is what you consider to be respecting the result? |
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Post by partickpotter on Jan 9, 2019 21:26:42 GMT
Not at all. Both main parties stood on platforms to deliver on the referendum result. Be clear Brino does not do that. What happened in the election is that despite the parties' commitments, there was an influx of politicians in both parties who didn't want to honour their own party's commitments. And they haven't. Parliament has therefore decided to act on what it wants to do, ignoring the referendum result they committed to implement. This is an insult to democracy. Which main party had a commitment to a no deal/WTO Brexit in their campaign referendum, if that is what you consider to be respecting the result? The parties had a commitment to leave the EU - if that means no deal, then fair enough. Ideally, a negotiated deal should have been committed but ths Government, this Parliament and the EU bureaucrats have contrived to not agree a negotiated deal that respects The Brexit vote. Instead what we have is Brino, which is a compromise that suits nobody and does not respect the referendum. In other words, Parliament has intentionally done what it can do to kill Brexit therefore both breaking election promises and turning its back on a referendum they did they would honour. |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Jan 9, 2019 21:27:38 GMT
An insult to democracy is not being able to change positions. So I take it that if there is another referendum and Remain win this time you would be perfectly happy for the Leave camp to campaign relentlessly for a third referendum ? After all that is what democracy is all about according to you, it's just a vote on a certain day with a result that can change at any time, and "An insult to democracy is not being able to change positions". This could run ad infinitum if we were to abide by your statement. Should a second referendum happen, should Remain be on the ballot paper, and should Remain win, I have no doubt the likes of UKIP will continue to believe the UK is better off out of the EU and campaign as such. There's not a lot to suggest any of the main protagonists of Vote Leave would stop campaigning had the referendum not gone their way. From Farage's "52-48 is unfinished business" to Redwood's article in the Guardian in 2016 that was titled "A vote to remain in the EU won’t be the last we hear of Brexit" - I've no doubt that people who believe that the EU is/was bad for the country would still continue campaigning as such, and they would be well within their rights to do so. |
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Post by partickpotter on Jan 9, 2019 21:29:20 GMT
An insult to democracy is not being able to change positions. So I take it that if there is another referendum and Remain win this time you would be perfectly happy for the Leave camp to campaign relentlessly for a third referendum ? After all that is what democracy is all about according to you, it's just a vote on a certain day with a result that can change at any time, and "An insult to democracy is not being able to change positions". This could run ad infinitum if we were to abide by your statement. It's called Neverendum. It's also why plebiscite democracy is generally something to avoid. It's, without doubt, one of the worst forms of democracy and should be used sparingly and very carefully. |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Jan 9, 2019 21:34:01 GMT
Which main party had a commitment to a no deal/WTO Brexit in their campaign referendum, if that is what you consider to be respecting the result? The parties had a commitment to leave the EU - if that means no deal, then fair enough. Ideally, a negotiated deal should have been committed but ths Government, this Parliament and the EU bureaucrats have contrived to not agree a negotiated deal that respects The Brexit vote. Instead what we have is Brino, which is a compromise that suits nobody and does not respect the referendum. In other words, Parliament has intentionally done what it can do to kill Brexit therefore both breaking election promises and turning its back on a referendum they did they would honour. Well May's deal is the first step to leaving the EU - so if their campaign promise was to leave the EU then she is trying (unsuccessfully) to see this through. We've no way of knowing what Labour would've done if they had power, because they didn't get enough votes to form a government. I don't see where the affront to democracy is at the moment. I think it was you that suggested in the very first post of this thread that the people had decided that there would not be a no deal Brexit - so they'd decided against the more extreme versions of Brexit and for a hodgepodge of a deal that would be negotiated by a weak government i.e. exactly where we are now. |
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Post by partickpotter on Jan 9, 2019 21:52:34 GMT
The parties had a commitment to leave the EU - if that means no deal, then fair enough. Ideally, a negotiated deal should have been committed but ths Government, this Parliament and the EU bureaucrats have contrived to not agree a negotiated deal that respects The Brexit vote. Instead what we have is Brino, which is a compromise that suits nobody and does not respect the referendum. In other words, Parliament has intentionally done what it can do to kill Brexit therefore both breaking election promises and turning its back on a referendum they did they would honour. Well May's deal is the first step to leaving the EU - so if their campaign promise was to leave the EU then she is trying (unsuccessfully) to see this through. We've no way of knowing what Labour would've done if they had power, because they didn't get enough votes to form a government. I don't see where the affront to democracy is at the moment. I think it was you that suggested in the very first post of this thread that the people had decided that there would not be a no deal Brexit - so they'd decided against the more extreme versions of Brexit and for a hodgepodge of a deal that would be negotiated by a weak government i.e. exactly where we are now. Yeah - it's true this thread started with that prediction. I guess we are now considering more fully the implications of it. One thing for sure - it's fascinating stuff. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 10, 2019 7:27:39 GMT
An insult to democracy is not being able to change positions. So I take it that if there is another referendum and Remain win this time you would be perfectly happy for the Leave camp to campaign relentlessly for a third referendum ? After all that is what democracy is all about according to you, it's just a vote on a certain day with a result that can change at any time, and "An insult to democracy is not being able to change positions". This could run ad infinitum if we were to abide by your statement. Yes, absolutely 100%. This is why referenda are anti-democratic and devisive and shouldn’t be used in a parliamentary democracy. To be democratic you have to keep repeating them once you start or politicians need to be brave enough to ignore them for the decisive abdication of responsibility they are. |
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Post by Northy on Jan 10, 2019 9:11:43 GMT
So I take it that if there is another referendum and Remain win this time you would be perfectly happy for the Leave camp to campaign relentlessly for a third referendum ? After all that is what democracy is all about according to you, it's just a vote on a certain day with a result that can change at any time, and "An insult to democracy is not being able to change positions". This could run ad infinitum if we were to abide by your statement. Yes, absolutely 100%. This is why referenda are anti-democratic and devisive and shouldn’t be used in a parliamentary democracy. To be democratic you have to keep repeating them once you start or politicians need to be brave enough to ignore them for the decisive abdication of responsibility they are. Or set down terms at the beginning of the referendum campaign, like our PM at the time did? Think we've mentioned it quite a few times what terms were stated Once in a lifetime vote was one of them .... |
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Post by yeokel on Jan 10, 2019 9:30:04 GMT
The nerve of some of you leave voting hypocrites who voted leave for our parliament (in our parliamentary democracy) to take back control! Ah, I see you’ve crawled back out from under your EU comfort blanket. I’m sure you won’t respond to this as you rarely respond to points or questions I ask of you, but I’d just like to take this opportunity to offer my congratulations on your learning how to spell ‘hypocrite’ correctly. It looks so much better than your usual “hypercrite”. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 10, 2019 15:39:52 GMT
Yes, absolutely 100%. This is why referenda are anti-democratic and devisive and shouldn’t be used in a parliamentary democracy. To be democratic you have to keep repeating them once you start or politicians need to be brave enough to ignore them for the decisive abdication of responsibility they are. Or set down terms at the beginning of the referendum campaign, like our PM at the time did? Think we've mentioned it quite a few times what terms were stated Once in a lifetime vote was one of them .... If the terms were set beforehand as you say, we wouldn’t be in the mess we are now. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 10, 2019 15:44:58 GMT
The nerve of some of you leave voting hypocrites who voted leave for our parliament (in our parliamentary democracy) to take back control! Ah, I see you’ve crawled back out from under your EU comfort blanket. I’m sure you won’t respond to this as you rarely respond to points or questions I ask of you, but I’d just like to take this opportunity to offer my congratulations on your learning how to spell ‘hypocrite’ correctly. It looks so much better than your usual “hypercrite”. Thanks. Spelling was never my strong point. Was there a point or question in your above post for me to respond to? No, there isn’t, just some insults. Obviously you have no input to add to the debate save to point out spelling mistakes and make odd insults about comfort blankets. |
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Post by Northy on Jan 10, 2019 16:35:08 GMT
Or set down terms at the beginning of the referendum campaign, like our PM at the time did? Think we've mentioned it quite a few times what terms were stated Once in a lifetime vote was one of them .... If the terms were set beforehand as you say, we wouldn’t be in the mess we are now. Wrong, if the MP's do what they are paid to do we wouldnt be in this mess now. |
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Post by yeokel on Jan 10, 2019 16:48:16 GMT
Ah, I see you’ve crawled back out from under your EU comfort blanket. I’m sure you won’t respond to this as you rarely respond to points or questions I ask of you, but I’d just like to take this opportunity to offer my congratulations on your learning how to spell ‘hypocrite’ correctly. It looks so much better than your usual “hypercrite”. Thanks. Spelling was never my strong point. Was there a point or question in your above post for me to respond to? No, there isn’t, just some insults. Obviously you have no input to add to the debate save to point out spelling mistakes and make odd insults about comfort blankets. “Spelling was never my strong point” I agree, you do seem to have a problem with accuracy which I’ve queried with you a few times recently but not received any response from you. But you did, at least, respond to ‘insults’ as you call them or ‘gentle goading’ as I thought of them. Here are two or three of examples for you… Ok, but what about competition laws and cosumer rights and workers rights? All those benefit the very poorest far more than the impact of VAT. EU law says the standard VAT rate on energy bills must be at least 15%. Our government chooses to make this 20%. So it is our domestic law that charges a higher rate of VAT on energy than under EU law. Blame our government, not the EU............. “ Our government chooses to make this 20%. So it is our domestic law that charges a higher rate of VAT on energy than under EU law. Blame our government, not the EU.” Apologies if this has already been pointed out, but as a late entry in to this part of the thread, could I point out that the vat rate on domestic energy is 5%? For business use, it is 20% but as most business reclaims VAT paid, it is effectively 0%. Where do you get your 20% figure from, Oggy, or is it just another of your fantasies and lies made up to support your belief of how shit the UK is compared with the EU? The Tories would sell their own children for the party. They are disgusting. And with gutless Corbyn on the other side we are the laughing stock of the world. However I hope people forever remember which party put us in this mess and which party chose internal party politics over the livelihoods of the people of this country. That would be the party that the Liberals saw fit to form a coalition government with only a few short years ago, would it? Can you show me that article? I have not seen that. The EU is much more than a trading bloc....... You've finally got it. When we joined, we didn't think we were joining anything other than a trading block called the Common Market as that's what we were told at the time. Either we were lied to then or, with its mission creep, the Common Market, EEC or EU (choose which ever alias you prefer) has expanded itself in to so much more than what we thought we were joining and we've never been asked to approve those major changes until 2016. And, once we were eventually consulted about it we decided that we want 'OUT'. Or, most of those of us who cared enough to vote do anyway. It has become something much larger than that which we joined, and it has ambitions to be come much larger still and the majority of those who care about this voted to leave. I’ve been quite hurt that you’ve been ignoring me and am glad to see we are on chatting terms again now. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 10, 2019 17:02:06 GMT
I do think that some Remainers have boxed themselves in a corner. Whilst still trying to win the argument, even though the substantive debate and decision was made prior to June 2016, they are still trying to get their own way , at the expense of undermining our Democracy, something that is particularly insulting to many of the working class who felt passionate enough to vote for perhaps the only time. But more importantly to argue for surrendering more of our Sovereignty to a remote German , and to lesser extent, French dominated EU is , in my opinion, a very serious and uncomfortable position to hold. The direction of travel of the EU is clear, and the decision makers in Brussels certainly will not have the interests of tge UK at heart. Sheer recklessness...... www.thetimes.co.uk/article/france-and-germany-join-forces-as-a-single-superpower-fjf3bgv60France and Germany are to forge shared defence, foreign and economic policies in an unprecedented “twinning” pact regarded as a prototype for the future of the European Union. The up and coming new boys in the EU won't have the UK's interest at heart.( Also see Manfrid Weber)..,.... ...... Brussels commentators maintain that Brexit details are determined by their respective number twos: Martin Selmayr (Chief of Staff to Juncker since 2014, and – controversially – General Secretary of the European Commission since March 2018) and Sabine Weyand, deputy to Barnier. Both happen to be German. Indeed, Die Welt, the leading German daily, early on in the negotiations did a feature titled ‘The top German players in the Brexit poker game’, with a certain pride, on their central role in the coming talks. It has been clear from the beginning that the mission of senior Brussels officials has been to punish Britain for Brexit. Selmayr and Weyand appear to be no exception to this. As early as May 2017, the Daily Telegraph reported that British officials believed that Mr Selmayr, an “arch-federalist”, was determined to poison the negotiations in a bid to “punish” the UK for leaving the European Union. It is Selmayr who stands accused of having leaked the details of two dinners between Theresa May and Jean-Claude Juncker to the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. Although he denies this. The accounts claimed May “begged for help” and described May as appearing “anxious”, “tormented”, “despondent and discouraged,” and cruelly described how our Prime Minister appeared to be having sleepless nights. www.conservativehome.com/platform/2019/01/greg-hands-the-two-vengeful-eu-officials-who-are-driving-the-brexit-talks.html |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Jan 10, 2019 18:09:33 GMT
Or set down terms at the beginning of the referendum campaign, like our PM at the time did? Think we've mentioned it quite a few times what terms were stated Once in a lifetime vote was one of them .... If the terms were set beforehand as you say, we wouldn’t be in the mess we are now. Here's Jacob Rees-Mogg setting out the terms of second referendum: Here's Nigel Farage setting out the terms of a Norway-type deal: |
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Post by harryburrows on Jan 10, 2019 18:38:33 GMT
So I take it that if there is another referendum and Remain win this time you would be perfectly happy for the Leave camp to campaign relentlessly for a third referendum ? After all that is what democracy is all about according to you, it's just a vote on a certain day with a result that can change at any time, and "An insult to democracy is not being able to change positions". This could run ad infinitum if we were to abide by your statement. Yes, absolutely 100%. This is why referenda are anti-democratic and devisive and shouldn’t be used in a parliamentary democracy. To be democratic you have to keep repeating them once you start or politicians need to be brave enough to ignore them for the decisive abdication of responsibility they are. What should the question be if a 2nd referendum takes place ? |
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 10, 2019 18:55:25 GMT
If the terms were set beforehand as you say, we wouldn’t be in the mess we are now. Wrong, if the MP's do what they are paid to do we wouldnt be in this mess now. Agreed! Then there would have been no referendum! |
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