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Post by numpty40 on Dec 5, 2018 22:21:41 GMT
Didn't Cameron/the Government spend £9.3 million sending their Referendum guide to every household to spell out the pro's and con's of remaining/leaving - I thought it was abundantly clear before the referendum what we were voting for. On the back page it also said that the Government would honour the result. Okay that's an interesting point and a good one too - that was remain propaganda. The "bus" was leave propaganda. Both have their place, arguably the bus was more "persuasive", but then a big advert or story always beats boring raw text. In the US elections there was a "fake news" story about a paedo ring in a pizza restaurant - it was propaganda but its narrative is so compelling that I still remember the story (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizzagate_conspiracy_theory). That is not passing any comment on either remain or leave propaganda but looking at them as each as a source of propaganda ahead of a vote. Neither contained fact but instead were suppositions of what "could" happen. We now have facts in terms of what the EU are prepared to agree to if we leave that's something to vote on instead of the "say so of politicians" regardless of their position.Are you suggesting that we should resume our position as a tributary state? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2018 22:25:34 GMT
Let’s be honest, the whole country has been played by politicians, for their own gain, since the referendum, regardless of which side of the fence you sit. We’re all just pawns in a huge game. We should have all realised that our Government couldn’t deliver a pint of milk, let alone Brexit, and now, after much time & effort, it really does look like we’d be better off whacking it in reverse, and sticking where we are. If we retain most of/all of that we held before, that seems like a half-decent result from where we currently stand. Many leavers no longer wanted what we had previously, that's precisely why they voted leave. No close ties to the EU, out of the customs union, out of the single market, stop freedom of movement etc. To stick where we currently are is precisely what the leavers don't/didn't want. I know. But how many of those Leavers would vote differently now they’ve seen what Brexit ‘could’ end up looking like? I’d say a few percent, and that’s all that was in it, would certainly flip. We’ve seen nothing to convince the ‘on the fence’ voters that they should sway towards a Brexit, and quite a bit to tell those same voters to err on the side of caution. So those that were in two minds, but voted anyway, are only more likely at this stage, to vote Remain. If we push through this Brexit as it stands, we’ll be left with our arse in our hands. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 5, 2018 22:32:19 GMT
It's a pity Cameron didn't have the integrity and guts to stay and deliver what he had promised. This current shower in the HoC should be made to watch that. Soubry is a classic example - her constituency voted heavily to l e ave yet she's one of the main vouces of Remain. She's got the nerve to take on her constituency chairman who she claims is trying to oust her because she's not listening to her voters - despicable bloody woman ! And there are countless others going against their constituency decision to leave. Dee I think that this video clearly illustrates the great divide between the electorate and politicians. Here is our Prime Minister, the man trusted by the people to lead the country, to do his best for them making a promise...a crystal clear commitment to do what people decide. He is the one who promised to have a referendum.He makes clear the importance of the decision, that there's no going back , it's once in a lifetime decision. He's dead clear that leave means leave, leaving the customs union, the single market. We listened and did as he asked. Then he/ his party/ the political class have gone back on their promise. What value is the word of any of them in the future? And that applies whichever side of the BREXIT argument that you are on |
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Post by numpty40 on Dec 5, 2018 22:34:46 GMT
It's a pity Cameron didn't have the integrity and guts to stay and deliver what he had promised. This current shower in the HoC should be made to watch that. Soubry is a classic example - her constituency voted heavily to l e ave yet she's one of the main vouces of Remain. She's got the nerve to take on her constituency chairman who she claims is trying to oust her because she's not listening to her voters - despicable bloody woman ! And there are countless others going against their constituency decision to leave. In a way I can see why he went, he advocated remain and spent millions of public money trying to persuade the unintelligent how to vote but failed. No other option but to fall on the sword. My biggest bugbear is the fraud that is Theresa May, a fucking awful Home Secretary and an even worse PM. I've been eligible to vote for near on 40 years now and she is without doubt the worst PM in my life time. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 5, 2018 22:38:22 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 5, 2018 22:39:37 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 5, 2018 22:40:20 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 5, 2018 23:07:48 GMT
Mary has received some telling comments from people who actually work in response to her tweet. Just reading the responses shows how out of touch the politicians are.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2018 23:20:40 GMT
I don't know why the MP's are even bothering to have the bloody Brexit Debate farce - they'd already made up their minds on 24th June 2016 !
Brexit means Remain !!!!!
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 5, 2018 23:47:41 GMT
The way that this article is worded once again clearly shows that the Commission thinks of itself as a country......eg a foreign policy. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to come to that conclusion.There can't be two Foreign policies, a national state one and an EU one. Where are policies such as this debated?......they are not in the EU parliament, Those that are in support of the EU support or are oblivious to the idea that the EU ' thinks of itself as a country' .................... "Plans to reduce European Union dependence on the US dollar – and so improve the bloc’s ability to run an independent foreign policy that is less exposed to US sanctions – were unveiled on Wednesday by the European commission. The proposal has grown in significance for European integrationists as firms from EU countries withdraw investments from Iran faced by the threat of punitive secondary sanctions from the US. The EU, unlike the US, wants to maintain the nuclear deal with Iran signed in 2015, but needs to deliver on its side of the bargain by increasing trade with Tehran." www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/05/european-union-dependence-on-dollar-to-be-reduced-under-new-proposals |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Dec 6, 2018 0:06:53 GMT
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Dec 6, 2018 0:24:49 GMT
It's a pity Cameron didn't have the integrity and guts to stay and deliver what he had promised. This current shower in the HoC should be made to watch that. Soubry is a classic example - her constituency voted heavily to l e ave yet she's one of the main vouces of Remain. She's got the nerve to take on her constituency chairman who she claims is trying to oust her because she's not listening to her voters - despicable bloody woman ! And there are countless others going against their constituency decision to leave. To be fair to Cameron he promised to push for a referendum and he delivered even though he campaigned for remain because that was what he personally believed in. He stepped aside because his heart wasn't behind Brexit. Shame Theresa May and Olly Robbins don't have the same principles. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 6, 2018 5:39:50 GMT
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Post by Timmypotter on Dec 6, 2018 5:54:46 GMT
The way that this article is worded once again clearly shows that the Commission thinks of itself as a country......eg a foreign policy. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to come to that conclusion.There can't be two Foreign policies, a national state one and an EU one. Where are policies such as this debated?......they are not in the EU parliament, Those that are in support of the EU support or are oblivious to the idea that the EU ' thinks of itself as a country' .................... "Plans to reduce European Union dependence on the US dollar – and so improve the bloc’s ability to run an independent foreign policy that is less exposed to US sanctions – were unveiled on Wednesday by the European commission. The proposal has grown in significance for European integrationists as firms from EU countries withdraw investments from Iran faced by the threat of punitive secondary sanctions from the US. The EU, unlike the US, wants to maintain the nuclear deal with Iran signed in 2015, but needs to deliver on its side of the bargain by increasing trade with Tehran." www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/05/european-union-dependence-on-dollar-to-be-reduced-under-new-proposalsIt's so depressing isn't it. And it's written in that article as though it's just a natural thing that isn't in, and of itself, comment worthy. I'm starting to feel very apathetic at the moment. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 6, 2018 6:22:37 GMT
I would actually have more time for them if they said the following:
"We cannot deliver Brexit. It's honestly too disastrous for the country, and it will cause chaos. We have lied about this in the past, but we're telling the truth now.
" We were utterly irresponsible in giving you a referendum. We didn't realise that you were living in a different world to us, and weren't 100% happy with how the EU project was going. We do now."
"But, on reflection, we have decided to override your views, for your own good. We can't let your vote stand. It was completely wrong of us to say that we would."
"We also would like to apologise for putting the country in economic danger and turning it into a laughing stock. As such, all the MPs who agreed to the referendum will be dismissed for dereliction of duty."
"We will not further embarrass ourselves by offering a second referendum. This would be an abdication of responsibility, and compound our previous recklessness. It would also be too much of a piss take, as I believe you might put it, to pretend that you are getting your way this time."
" So today, Parliament will be closed for the foreseeable future, while we put people in place who didn't cause this uncertainty and potential catastrophe. The civil service are more than capable of running the country, the MPs are really just for show, anyway."
" After this initial period of upheaval, we will recall parliament and start again. You will, of course, be eligible to vote for your new MP, safe in the knowledge that they have your concerns at heart."
"In closing, I would like to sincerely apologise for wasting two and a half years of your time pretending to get a good deal from the EU. It was utterly shameful, but we had to look as if we were trying".
I would honestly sooner hear something like that, than be insulted with a People's Vote. But I am preparing for insult.
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Post by wagsastokie on Dec 6, 2018 6:39:24 GMT
People’s vote this people’s vote that all we are beginning to hear is people’s vote as this is the saviour of the nation
I am yet to hear one advocate of this people’s vote come out and say what will happen if the people turn round and still tell the Eu to piss off again
The electorate has misbehaved once it’s not beyond reason it will do so again
These so called remainers really are playing with fire
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2018 6:48:45 GMT
I would actually have more time for them if they said the following: "We cannot deliver Brexit. It's honestly too disastrous for the country, and it will cause chaos. We have lied about this in the past, but we're telling the truth now. " We were utterly irresponsible in giving you a referendum. We didn't realise that you were living in a different world to us, and weren't 100% happy with how the EU project was going. We do now." "But, on reflection, we have decided to override your views, for your own good. We can't let your vote stand. It was completely wrong of us to say that we would." "We also would like to apologise for putting the country in economic danger and turning it into a laughing stock. As such, all the MPs who agreed to the referendum will be dismissed for dereliction of duty." "We will not further embarrass ourselves by offering a second referendum. This would be an abdication of responsibility, and compound our previous recklessness. It would also be too much of a piss take, as I believe you might put it, to pretend that you are getting your way this time." " So today, Parliament will be closed for the foreseeable future, while we put people in place who didn't cause this uncertainty and potential catastrophe. The civil service are more than capable of running the country, the MPs are really just for show, anyway." " After this initial period of upheaval, we will recall parliament and start again. You will, of course, be eligible to vote for your new MP, safe in the knowledge that they have your concerns at heart." "In closing, I would like to sincerely apologise for wasting two and a half years of your time pretending to get a good deal from the EU. It was utterly shameful, but we had to look as if we were trying". I would honestly sooner hear something like that, than be insulted with a People's Vote. But I am preparing for insult. There's more chance of Juncker and Tusk becoming Stoke's new central defensive partnership on Saturday ! This lot are so wrapped up in their own self importance and are determined to keep their noses in the trough. Having watched the Brexit debate on Parliament there are only one or two MP's who have said that the result of the referendum must be upheld, and that Parliament was insulting and angering 17.4 million voters with their actions. The vast majority basically said "I know what my constituency voted for but I know what's best for them" ! Tory Anna Soubry's Broxtowe constituency voted 54.6% leave yet she's one of the leading Remain campaigners. She's previously said she would vote against any deal at all costs, and would even join a new party to see Brexit overturned. Yesterday she said she would support the May deal if defeating it was likely to lead to a Corbyn government ! The vast majority are just self-serving and extremely arrogant. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2018 6:58:46 GMT
People’s vote this people’s vote that all we are beginning to hear is people’s vote as this is the saviour of the nation I am yet to hear one advocate of this people’s vote come out and say what will happen if the people turn round and still tell the Eu to piss off again The electorate has misbehaved once it’s not beyond reason it will do so again These so called remainers really are playing with fire They're so bloody arrogant with their incessant demands for this bloody "People's vote" (it's a sodding referendum !) - to quote Kevin Keegan "I would love it, love it" if all of us thick, racist plebs voted Leave yet again. As you say nobody has said what would happen if Remain lost again. No doubt there would be even more crying and wailing, more protest marches, and more debate leading to a third "final" vote, and if they lost that as well, what then, a fourth, fifth, who knows. The longer this has gone on the more entrenched and determined I have become that I really don't want to be part of the EU and that we should leave. If we do end up remaining in the EU my own outlook and relationship with my own country will have dramatically changed forever, which would be a terrible feeling. If these remainers are so desperate to stay in the EU that much they should bloody well bugger off and live there and allow us to leave in line with the referendum result ! Democracy - what democracy ? |
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Post by bathstoke on Dec 6, 2018 7:20:34 GMT
People’s vote this people’s vote that all we are beginning to hear is people’s vote as this is the saviour of the nation I am yet to hear one advocate of this people’s vote come out and say what will happen if the people turn round and still tell the Eu to piss off again The electorate has misbehaved once it’s not beyond reason it will do so again These so called remainers really are playing with fire What, like the protest voters(& there are many)that wanted to give the government a bloody nose/kick up the arse, were playing with fire... Before you gammons start getting your blood pressure up, about how your views haven't changed & knew what you were voting for, I know people that are now humbled & embarrassed at voting out. This $#!t is a proper mess & no worming weazley words will change that fact & no one knows where it will all end... |
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Post by wagsastokie on Dec 6, 2018 7:28:08 GMT
People’s vote this people’s vote that all we are beginning to hear is people’s vote as this is the saviour of the nation I am yet to hear one advocate of this people’s vote come out and say what will happen if the people turn round and still tell the Eu to piss off again The electorate has misbehaved once it’s not beyond reason it will do so again These so called remainers really are playing with fire What, like the protest voters(& there are many)that wanted to give the government a bloody nose/kick up the arse, were playing with fire... Before you gammons start getting your blood pressure up, about how your views haven't changed & knew what you were voting for, I know people that are now humbled & embarrassed at voting out. This $#!t is a proper mess & no worming weazley words will change that fact & no one knows where it will all end... My blood pressure is fine thakyou for your concern I also happen to know remain voters who were swayed by project fear would now vote leave The term gammon you really don’t add a thing to the debate By resorting to purile infantile insults |
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Post by bathstoke on Dec 6, 2018 7:31:02 GMT
What, like the protest voters(& there are many)that wanted to give the government a bloody nose/kick up the arse, were playing with fire... Before you gammons start getting your blood pressure up, about how your views haven't changed & knew what you were voting for, I know people that are now humbled & embarrassed at voting out. This $#!t is a proper mess & no worming weazley words will change that fact & no one knows where it will all end... My blood pressure is fine thakyou for your concern I also happen to know remain voters who were swayed by project fear would now vote leave The term gammon you really don’t add a thing to the debate By resorting to purile infantile insults Oh the irony! |
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Post by wagsastokie on Dec 6, 2018 7:35:13 GMT
My blood pressure is fine thakyou for your concern I also happen to know remain voters who were swayed by project fear would now vote leave The term gammon you really don’t add a thing to the debate By resorting to purile infantile insults Oh the irony! Glad you enjoyed it |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 6, 2018 8:09:01 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 6, 2018 8:17:37 GMT
Pat on the " People's" vote
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Post by wagsastokie on Dec 6, 2018 8:32:33 GMT
Pat on the " People's" vote Every mp in parliament should be forced to watch that |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2018 8:52:44 GMT
Pat on the " People's" vote Spot on - but these weasels in Parliament "know what's best for us" as they keep telling us ! Bunch of shysters ! |
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Post by skemstokie on Dec 6, 2018 9:04:17 GMT
The options were to leave the EU or remain in the EU. I really don't know how many times this has to be said. Ok, you believe the leave voters are thick racists but please don't patronise leave voters. I've made no suggestion that is what I think, I've merely suggested that neither remain nor leave voter had any evidence for what they voted for in 2016. They either voted out of fear that they were told leaving would be "bad" or that they disliked being in the EU for reason "xyz". Neither of those positions are educated reasons to vote either way and in 2016 that was largely the only evidence available. My proposition is that the vote had no basis in fact, I'm not suggesting that it wasn't a binary option. I feel if the facts that are now available had been known before the referendum some people would have perhaps voted differently, people who did not vote would perhaps have made the effort to vote and the outcome would have been based on fact not promises which have been proven to be false and and the outcome would perhaps be less divisive. |
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Post by wagsastokie on Dec 6, 2018 9:26:26 GMT
I've made no suggestion that is what I think, I've merely suggested that neither remain nor leave voter had any evidence for what they voted for in 2016. They either voted out of fear that they were told leaving would be "bad" or that they disliked being in the EU for reason "xyz". Neither of those positions are educated reasons to vote either way and in 2016 that was largely the only evidence available. My proposition is that the vote had no basis in fact, I'm not suggesting that it wasn't a binary option. I feel if the facts that are now available had been known before the referendum some people would have perhaps voted differently, people who did not vote would perhaps have made the effort to vote and the outcome would have been based on fact not promises which have been proven to be false and and the outcome would perhaps be less divisive. I agree but even under that premise the vote could very well been the same would you have then accepted the choice of the people |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 6, 2018 9:50:55 GMT
Pat on the " People's" vote Borderless countries was interesting. A young bloke argued the toss with Nigel Farage last night about Brexit, then finally admitted that he didn't want Borders to countries. He also said that Farage's way of thinking would die out as older people, well, died and the young, forward thinking people took over. This overlooks the chance that the older people might be right, of course, and the fact that not only they voted for Brexit. It's all tying in, though. Paint a picture of a beautiful continent in harmony due to the EU. Hammer away at kids in school, colleges, and universities. Brainwash them with the media, especially television. Flood countries with immigrants more likely to get with the programme. Of course, people who actually see the results of this in their daily lives see that it's not such a pretty picture. Ask why countries all over Europe are seeing a surge in so called populist parties? Could they possibly be right that too much immigration, too quick, has put huge strain on public services? Are Swedish people lying when they say they have no go areas that are crawling with crime? Is there no problem with youth unemployment in the EU? Make no mistake, if Brexit is overturned, all these issues will be swept under the carpet. Corbyn can go back to his "no upper levels of immigration" lunacy that he spouted before the referendum. Debate will be shut down for another 40 years, or until the EU finally implodes. I think this is the real suicide, not Brexit. |
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Post by wagsastokie on Dec 6, 2018 10:00:59 GMT
Pat on the " People's" vote Borderless countries was interesting. A young bloke argued the toss with Nigel Farage last night about Brexit, then finally admitted that he didn't want Borders to countries. He also said that Farage's way of thinking would die out as older people, well, died and the young, forward thinking people took over. This overlooks the chance that the older people might be right, of course, and the fact that not only they voted for Brexit. It's all tying in, though. Paint a picture of a beautiful continent in harmony due to the EU. Hammer away at kids in school, colleges, and universities. Brainwash them with the media, especially television. Flood countries with immigrants more likely to get with the programme. Of course, people who actually see the results of this in their daily lives see that it's not such a pretty picture. Ask why countries all over Europe are seeing a surge in so called populist parties? Could they possibly be right that too much immigration, too quick, has put huge strain on public services? Are Swedish people lying when they say they have no go areas that are crawling with crime? Is there no problem with youth unemployment in the EU? Make no mistake, if Brexit is overturned, all these issues will be swept under the carpet. Corbyn can go back to his "no upper levels of immigration" lunacy that he spouted before the referendum. Debate will be shut down for another 40 years, or until the EU finally implodes. I think this is the real suicide, not Brexit. I’m quite confident that the Eu will implode well within the next forty years which is why we need to be well away before it happens |
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