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Post by essexstokey on Nov 24, 2018 23:22:27 GMT
Thank you for confirming what I wrote above. Parts of an industry may be taken in to public ownership. BUT only in as far as it complies with Article 107(I) Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union which states: 1. Save as otherwise provided in the Treaties, any aid granted by a Member State or through State resources in any form whatsoever which distorts or threatens to distort competition by favouring certain undertakings or the production of certain goods shall, in so far as it affects trade between Member States, be incompatible with the internal market.It is the protection of fair competition within the single market that is the test of whether an industry that is taken into public ownership is allowable. So it is allowable to take parts of banks into public ownership, but to take the whole of the banking industry is prima facie anti free European competition. Which is why when the Belgium government overstepped the mark in publicly funding the Duferco steel group the EU order recovery of €211m. It was effectively nationalising the Belgium steel industry. What I will accept is the level of state support would have to be tested on a case by case basis against A107(1) TFEU Yep, but it would be incredibly unlikely for an entire industry to be nationalised. It is always only going to be done in part. Particularly in the UK where we have sold off all government assets and bringing them back under government control would cost an absolute fortune. Even in many EU nations where far more is government owned entire industries tend not to be. That doesn’t stop the vast majorities of, for example, the French and German railways being government owned. Or energy etc. It doesn’t stop the health service or schools being government owned here for example. Private companies have to be allowed to compete. Who cares anyway, we won’t be bound by that in future. Oggy as I understand it labours manifesto pledge on ownership consists of this:: Railways (cost £0) this will be done by when a lease comes up for renewal it will not be renewed the leasing deals for trains etc will then be taken up by the nationalised rail company. all profits would go to the new rail company or the government instead of going out in dividends to shareholders. Utilities (cost not sure(my analysis is that it may not be as much as said because of the way its being done) As I understand it each share we be compulsory purchased by the government and each one will be exchanged for a government debenture over time this will be bought back and exchanged by the government from the profits that at the moment go to shareholders. which is the clever part of this renationalisation. people give fictitious values on these costs however you should understand that any government has the power to print money and hence pay for anything that they wish to. Labours proposal to renationalise these industries is to. put key industries like power, water, rail etc in the control of the government and hence the consumer, to stop excessive profiteering and price hikes. it may and should halt fuel poverty and also give you labour mobility. |
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Post by sorethumbs on Nov 24, 2018 23:30:57 GMT
I’m asking you to name the countries we will have trade deals with in the circumstances listed. As a member of the EU, we cannot negotiate our own trade deals. All trade deals we currently benefit from are due to our membership of the EU so when we leave the EU those trade deals end too. If I am wrong, please name the countries we will have trade deals with immediately once we leave.[/quote] I'm not going to list them all. Think about it. Better still, try if you can, to think about it without your EU hat on. |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 25, 2018 0:21:40 GMT
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 25, 2018 8:41:53 GMT
So as Banks was sod all to do with the official leave vote campaign Does this mean if they say it’s not void You will turn round and acept the vote ? Or will you continue to cling to any a attempt to thwart the will of the British people |
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Post by bathstoke on Nov 25, 2018 9:19:08 GMT
So if there is no deal, please name the countries we will have a trade deal with on 30 march 2019. In the event of a deal, at the end of the transition period, please name the countries we will have a trade deal with. Are you suggesting we will have zero deals with anyone else in the rest of the world? Where have you been for the past 2yrs. Have you not heard of us opporating under WTO rules in the event of a hard Brexit. It has been mentioned a few times... |
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Post by partickpotter on Nov 25, 2018 10:36:48 GMT
So - it's down to Westminster.
The EU leaders have endorsed the deal and made it clear it's the only one that's on the table.
Will enough MPs now get behind the deal - noting the only alternative is No Deal.
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Post by harryburrows on Nov 25, 2018 10:44:06 GMT
Not sure why there's so much angst for the transition arrangement. The government have until 2020 to arrange our long term future , no doubt they will horse trade away our fishing waters to enable free market access for our goods and financial services. Free trade agreement will mean the Irish border issue should melt away
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Nov 25, 2018 10:45:02 GMT
They implement instructions from Brussels. "A "regulation" is a binding legislative act. It must be applied in its entirety across the EU." "A "directive" is a legislative act that sets out a goal that all EU countries must achieve." europa.eu/european-union/eu-law/legal-acts_enThey implement instructions from Brussels that they’ve had a big hand in setting, that all countries in the EU have a chance to veto. May’s deal removes us from having our big say in creating the legislative acts, the chance to veto them and just has us following them. Who's the 'they' here? MEP's working for Brussels? Also we don't have a 'big hand' in setting anything. Cameron veoted Juncker's appointment. How did that work out? I agree with you about the deal Treason May has signed up to though. |
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Post by lordb on Nov 25, 2018 10:48:23 GMT
So - it's down to Westminster. The EU leaders have endorsed the deal and made it clear it's the only one that's on the table. Will enough MPs now get behind the deal - noting the only alternative is No Deal. Doubt it. No deal it is then. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 25, 2018 10:52:24 GMT
I’m asking you to name the countries we will have trade deals with in the circumstances listed. As a member of the EU, we cannot negotiate our own trade deals. All trade deals we currently benefit from are due to our membership of the EU so when we leave the EU those trade deals end too. If I am wrong, please name the countries we will have trade deals with immediately once we leave. I'm not going to list them all. Think about it. Better still, try if you can, to think about it without your EU hat on. [/quote] You can’t name 1 country can you. Because there aren’t any. |
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Nov 25, 2018 10:58:59 GMT
They implement instructions from Brussels. "A "regulation" is a binding legislative act. It must be applied in its entirety across the EU." "A "directive" is a legislative act that sets out a goal that all EU countries must achieve." europa.eu/european-union/eu-law/legal-acts_enYep, lots of other international treaties govern how we operate in this globalised world. Surely you cannot be hypocritical enough to want to leave the EU for sovereignty reasons but would be willing, for example, for us to trade under WTO rules with another nation? We haven’t singlehandly set the WTO rules so surely you must be against that and every other international law and treaty we are bound by. Or are you a hypocrite? The WTO don't dictate our immigration policy, or our environmental policy or our access to space projects or our co-operation over terror threats or our rules on state aid. Etc, etc, etc. The WTO provide a set of neutral rules that form the basis of almost all bespoke trading deals. They provide a forum for members to discuss, agree and dispute trade. But glad you finally admit the EU creates laws that the UK merely implements on their behalf. |
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Nov 25, 2018 11:06:04 GMT
So - it's down to Westminster. The EU leaders have endorsed the deal and made it clear it's the only one that's on the table. Will enough MPs now get behind the deal - noting the only alternative is No Deal. Or to word it slightly differently, will enough MPs now shit all over democracy & give us Remain on steroids, or will they go with the alternative & provide the Brexit the Plebs voted for. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 25, 2018 11:19:37 GMT
Yep, lots of other international treaties govern how we operate in this globalised world. Surely you cannot be hypocritical enough to want to leave the EU for sovereignty reasons but would be willing, for example, for us to trade under WTO rules with another nation? We haven’t singlehandly set the WTO rules so surely you must be against that and every other international law and treaty we are bound by. Or are you a hypocrite? The WTO don't dictate our immigration policy, or our environmental policy or our access to space projects or our co-operation over terror threats or our rules on state aid. Etc, etc, etc. The WTO provide a set of neutral rules that form the basis of almost all bespoke trading deals. They provide a forum for members to discuss, agree and dispute trade. But glad you finally admit the EU creates laws that the UK merely implements on their behalf. In reply to your last sentence, I have never, ever denied that te EU (including us) implement laws we have to follow. A drop in the ocean of legislation though. So you admit we would have to follow the WTO rules that our government have not dictated? What’s sovereign about that? We are party to hundreds of other international laws and treaties we don’t set. How can any Brexit supporter possibly argue we stay a signatory of them if they want us to be a totally sovereign nation? We have to cease trade with any foreign nation to have absolute sovereignty. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 25, 2018 11:20:27 GMT
So - it's down to Westminster. The EU leaders have endorsed the deal and made it clear it's the only one that's on the table. Will enough MPs now get behind the deal - noting the only alternative is No Deal. Or to word it slightly differently, will enough MPs now shit all over democracy & give us Remain on steroids, or will they go with the alternative & provide the Brexit the Plebs voted for. Not a fan of parliamentary democracy are you? |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 25, 2018 11:46:05 GMT
Or to word it slightly differently, will enough MPs now shit all over democracy & give us Remain on steroids, or will they go with the alternative & provide the Brexit the Plebs voted for. Not a fan of parliamentary democracy are you? I know what he means, though, Oggy. Where on the ballot paper did it say "We will honour any result apart from actually leaving"? |
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 25, 2018 12:03:59 GMT
Not a fan of parliamentary democracy are you? I know what he means, though, Oggy. Where on the ballot paper did it say "We will honour any result apart from actually leaving"? May has 100% honoured the vote. As it stands, we will leave the EU on 30 March 2019. That is all the leave voters voted for. Many think they voted for a certain type of Brexit. They didn’t. It wasn’t an option for them to do so. They voted blindly to leave the EU but are now complaining at the outcome and also complaining about the potential for being given the opportunity to vote on the type of brexit. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 25, 2018 12:07:16 GMT
I know what he means, though, Oggy. Where on the ballot paper did it say "We will honour any result apart from actually leaving"? May has 100% honoured the vote. As it stands, we will leave the EU on 30 March 2019. That is all the leave voters voted for. Many think they voted for a certain type of Brexit. They didn’t. It wasn’t an option for them to do so. They voted blindly to leave the EU but are now complaining at the outcome and also complaining about the potential for being given the opportunity to vote on the type of brexit. Type of Brexit. Apart from Rip, who has suggested that? |
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 25, 2018 12:10:55 GMT
May has 100% honoured the vote. As it stands, we will leave the EU on 30 March 2019. That is all the leave voters voted for. Many think they voted for a certain type of Brexit. They didn’t. It wasn’t an option for them to do so. They voted blindly to leave the EU but are now complaining at the outcome and also complaining about the potential for being given the opportunity to vote on the type of brexit. Type of Brexit. Apart from Rip, who has suggested that? Drunken Communist - he says May’s deal is “remain on steroids” and that shitss all over democracy. May’s deal 100% honours what leave voters voted for. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 25, 2018 12:33:37 GMT
Type of Brexit. Apart from Rip, who has suggested that? Drunken Communist - he says May’s deal is “remain on steroids” and that shitss all over democracy. May’s deal 100% honours what leave voters voted for. The so called People's Vote calls for May's deal or Remain, not May's deal or No Deal. |
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Post by Gods on Nov 25, 2018 13:10:39 GMT
A sort of funeral without a wake this morning.
The lunacy of this thing is starting to inescapably crowd in.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 25, 2018 13:27:07 GMT
A sort of funeral without a wake this morning. The lunacy of this thing is starting to inescapably crowd in. If it's such lunacy, all the MPs who voted for the referendum should resign, then, instead of deliberately scuppering Brexit and handing it back to the people again. If it was such an outlandish suggestion, why did they allow the referendum (even allowing for their miscalculation) in the first place? I think Brexit is achievable, but not enough of them want to try. |
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Nov 25, 2018 14:57:48 GMT
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 25, 2018 15:10:42 GMT
Have Labour offered anything, yet? Apart from basically staying in, I mean?
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Post by ravey123 on Nov 25, 2018 15:18:10 GMT
If further proof was needed the "friends" across the water are starting to line up with their demands to screw the UK.
Firstly our beloved leader gives a concession on further talks on the future of Gibraltar - since when did she have sole right to make that concession, now that lovable chappie Macron is lining up a "The UK must give us access to their fishing waters" demand.
What are they going to bargain with next - sovereignty over the Channel Islands, demands to use UK waters to build wind turbines, EU fishing rights to the waters around the Falklands - this lot will stoop at no lows to screw the UK and our beloved leader will stoop to any lows to appease them.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 25, 2018 15:27:16 GMT
Drunken Communist - he says May’s deal is “remain on steroids” and that shitss all over democracy. May’s deal 100% honours what leave voters voted for. The so called People's Vote calls for May's deal or Remain, not May's deal or No Deal. Perhaps at the next election the options should be labour or lib dem, with no option to vote tory? |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 25, 2018 15:33:34 GMT
If further proof was needed the "friends" across the water are starting to line up with their demands to screw the UK. Firstly our beloved leader gives a concession on further talks on the future of Gibraltar - since when did she have sole right to make that concession, now that lovable chappie Macron is lining up a "The UK must give us access to their fishing waters" demand. What are they going to bargain with next - sovereignty over the Channel Islands, demands to use UK waters to build wind turbines, EU fishing rights to the waters around the Falklands - this lot will stoop at no lows to screw the UK and our beloved leader will stoop to any lows to appease them. Yet our MPs have collectively decided that no deal is a non starter. Someone(I forget who) said earlier, we had to have a soft Brexit to appease the 48% who voted Remain. Thank fuck we didn't have a referendum on hanging; they would ask for a rope long enough for the condemned to be able to touch the floor with their feet. |
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Post by harryburrows on Nov 25, 2018 15:34:41 GMT
Have Labour offered anything, yet? Apart from basically staying in, I mean? Some tripe about everything still on the table |
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Post by harryburrows on Nov 25, 2018 15:36:23 GMT
The so called People's Vote calls for May's deal or Remain, not May's deal or No Deal. Perhaps at the next election the options should be labour or lib dem, with no option to vote tory? Why would we want a lib dem government? |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 25, 2018 15:36:55 GMT
Have Labour offered anything, yet? Apart from basically staying in, I mean? Some tripe about everything still on the table Wankers. Completely abandoned the British working class. |
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Nov 25, 2018 15:52:14 GMT
Wankers. Completely abandoned the British working class. Funnily enough I had a bloke from Labour knock on my door earlier today. Told me he's from Birmingham & is a Human Rights lawyer... He'll know all about life in Blurton then! |
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