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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Nov 18, 2018 13:01:21 GMT
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 18, 2018 13:03:16 GMT
Correct and if Blair and Brown had followed this idea instead of just opening the door to any Eu citizens regardless of there intent to work or not Than we would probably have seen a different outcome to the referendum I would of still voted out as my vote was never about free movement Yes my reasons are the same as yours I think but it is interesting that one of the few things the wankdrawal agreement does seem to end is the freedom of movement yet about 98% of leave voters dont seem to care about this its almost like what we were told was supposedly the main reason for us all voting leave is bollocks or something. If the Withdrawal Agreement ended all other co-operation apart from freedom of movement you would suddenly find that FoM was actually the most important part of the agreement. |
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Post by felonious on Nov 18, 2018 13:05:29 GMT
I can't find where Selymar actually says this but what Raab says does not seem to be disputed. The effect on the EUof the UK genuinely leaving would be such that I honestly believe that those in charge of the EU will not stop at anything as long as they can blame the chaos/ unrest/ disruption on BREXIT Losing Northern Ireland would be the best thing the EU has ever done for us. |
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Post by salopstick on Nov 18, 2018 15:48:37 GMT
Just watched Johnathon Pies latest video and he nails it.
As soon as the Brexit vote was finished every party, MP etc should have put aside their own personal opinions on Brexit and got behind the result to get the negotiations done proper.
Labour refused to accept it, tories were split etc. Easy for the EU to screw the negotiations on a deal most of them didn’t want to make.
Easy to blame May. Everyone of those cunts in Westminster are responsible for the shit now.
NO DEAL - and make it work
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 18, 2018 15:57:51 GMT
Apparently, sometimes in a democracy you don't get what you want
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 18, 2018 16:46:48 GMT
The part where he says "there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain — but with a few conditions." would probably see this plan dubbed as Brino. Interestingly, would Leave voters on here take a no deal if it involved the freedom of movement continuing? The freedom of movement he is talking about here is pretty much how 99% of the rest of the world works, if you have a job or job offer and can support yourself, you are allowed to go and work in that country. But surely there has to be limits to immigration, even with that? Make no mistake, immigration levels were the key to some areas voting Brexit. That's what Labour are still failing to address. |
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Post by xchpotter on Nov 18, 2018 17:34:11 GMT
Apparently, sometimes in a democracy you don't get what you want What a gentleman and a diplomat. Wish we could be allowed to do more business with Australia. |
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Post by numpty40 on Nov 18, 2018 21:02:48 GMT
Apparently, sometimes in a democracy you don't get what you want What he says is so simple and yet so blindingly obvious. |
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 18, 2018 21:49:01 GMT
Think he hits the nail on the head here. It seems as though we are surrendering to the might of the EU rather than standing for what is right. It's at times like this when we need a strong and stubborn pm like Churchill or even thatcher. Not this weak joke of a pathetic excuse for pm at the moment. Former Australian PM Tony Abbott... "It’s pretty hard for Britain’s friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess that’s being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesn’t seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, it’s baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny. Let’s get one thing straight: a negotiation that you’re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation — it’s surrender. It’s all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britain’s EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that he’d never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that she’s desperate for whatever deal she can get. The EU’s palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that there’s only one ‘deal’ on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because it’s terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence. YBut even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, it’s not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. It’s time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU can’t make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year — and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the world’s fifth-largest economy? A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You don’t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows what’s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe. Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently — and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you don’t need a deal. You don’t need Michel Barnier’s permission. If Europe knows what’s best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are. Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain — but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign worker’s tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers. Fourth, no ‘divorce bill’ whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EU’s property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britain’s share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasn’t getting its fair share, it’s the EU that should be paying Britain. Finally, there’s no need on Britain’s part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldn’t be imposing tariffs on European goods, so there’s no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so let’s not pretend you need to check for problems we all know don’t exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership. Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US — but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? We’re talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere). UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. It’s been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids. And let’s not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum. As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britain’s future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britain’s admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it." Tony Abbott served as Prime Minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015 The part where he says "there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain — but with a few conditions." would probably see this plan dubbed as Brino. Interestingly, would Leave voters on here take a no deal if it involved the freedom of movement continuing? Definitely yes . We were all immigrants once. We should be open to all the world's talent and cheap labour who are prepared to work for our minimum wage. But not those who just want to come here on welfare, claim welfare for family back in their native country, or an NHS holiday. |
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 18, 2018 22:29:50 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 19, 2018 7:44:42 GMT
Blair is being sincere again.
(Is this a Spoof or is it real...if real it is a good indication of where our politicians are coming from)
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 19, 2018 7:50:38 GMT
I agree with O'Flynn here....Intended outcome...3 or 4 years down the the line ,the further away we get from the Referendum, " Let's rejoin"
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Post by felonious on Nov 19, 2018 7:52:33 GMT
Blair is being sincere again. (Is this a Spoof or is it real...if real it is a good indication of where our politicians are coming from) The suggestion might be if he's being very, very quiet it's all going to plan. This weasel has done more to devalue politicians than anyone else in my lifetime. It takes a special person to upset the left and the right in equal measure. |
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Post by bathstoke on Nov 19, 2018 8:49:43 GMT
Blair is being sincere again. (Is this a Spoof or is it real...if real it is a good indication of where our politicians are coming from) One of the greatest DrWho’s we’ve had in recent times. Much better than subsequent incarnations... |
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Post by xchpotter on Nov 19, 2018 10:32:48 GMT
Blair is being sincere again. (Is this a Spoof or is it real...if real it is a good indication of where our politicians are coming from) The suggestion might be if he's being very, very quiet it's all going to plan. This weasel has done more to devalue politicians than anyone else in my lifetime. It takes a special person to upset the left and the right in equal measure. I think you are right and this supports my belief that those deep within the establishment would never allow us to leave. I have no intention ever again of voting for a mainstream party. Who knows what the long term impact will be on the political spectrum and as a consequence whether more hard line parties start to emerge. Then again if there were more “out there” views across the political spectrum, I’m guessing the powers that be would just ban them. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2018 10:57:04 GMT
Blair is being sincere again. (Is this a Spoof or is it real...if real it is a good indication of where our politicians are coming from) I absolutely detest this despicable man. If he had one shred of decency he would never make any public statement on any subject ever again. |
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Post by starkiller on Nov 19, 2018 11:12:50 GMT
Boris was wrong.
The bus should have said £394 million a week.
Start at 1:33
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 19, 2018 12:11:35 GMT
Blair is being sincere again. (Is this a Spoof or is it real...if real it is a good indication of where our politicians are coming from) I absolutely detest this despicable man. If he had one shred of decency he would never make any public statement on any subject ever again. If he had any shred of decency he’d hand himself over to The Hague for trial |
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Post by followyoudown on Nov 19, 2018 12:49:00 GMT
I absolutely detest this despicable man. If he had one shred of decency he would never make any public statement on any subject ever again. If he had any shred of decency he’d hand himself over to The Hague for trial For ? |
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 19, 2018 13:03:13 GMT
If he had any shred of decency he’d hand himself over to The Hague for trial For ? Complicity in the deaths of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians The deaths of British service men through the supply of unsuitable equipment The illegal invasion of a sovereign nation state That will do for starters |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 19, 2018 13:21:21 GMT
The suggestion might be if he's being very, very quiet it's all going to plan. This weasel has done more to devalue politicians than anyone else in my lifetime. It takes a special person to upset the left and the right in equal measure. I think you are right and this supports my belief that those deep within the establishment would never allow us to leave. I have no intention ever again of voting for a mainstream party. Who knows what the long term impact will be on the political spectrum and as a consequence whether more hard line parties start to emerge. Then again if there were more “out there” views across the political spectrum, I’m guessing the powers that be would just ban them. Funny how UKIP has all but vanished, isn't it? On the verge of being a real force (if we had PR they would have been) until Labour and the Tories wooed their voters back. Now, this stitch up. Trouble is, I think Labour voters, especially will stay with Jezza out of loyalty and lack of alternative representation. Democracy is an illusion, I think. But the media will sway people into thinking they are getting it. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 19, 2018 13:23:45 GMT
Complicity in the deaths of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians The deaths of British service men through the supply of unsuitable equipment The illegal invasion of a sovereign nation state That will do for starters Making fortunes from the aftermath. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 19, 2018 14:00:42 GMT
Gerard has a point
I'm not sure that politicians will go to a referendum again because they will be so scared that they could lose it and they could. Of course the actual question would be all important, ideally they would not want the BREXT option and would hope to split the "out" vote
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 19, 2018 14:05:39 GMT
Our nation is at a very serious crossroads, to state the obvious / |
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Post by followyoudown on Nov 19, 2018 15:06:02 GMT
Complicity in the deaths of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians The deaths of British service men through the supply of unsuitable equipment The illegal invasion of a sovereign nation state That will do for starters I hate Tony Blair as much as anyone but if you are wanting to convict him of war crimes then by default you are placing every british soldier who served there in the same court as the only following orders defence was as proved at Nuremburg trails not an allowable defence. Blair is a cnut and may even have deliberately lied / misled to take us to war but there is nothing he has done that puts him in the hague. |
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Post by Northy on Nov 19, 2018 15:32:14 GMT
Complicity in the deaths of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians The deaths of British service men through the supply of unsuitable equipment The illegal invasion of a sovereign nation state That will do for starters I hate Tony Blair as much as anyone but if you are wanting to convict him of war crimes then by default you are placing every british soldier who served there in the same court as the only following orders defence was as proved at Nuremburg trails not an allowable defence. Blair is a cnut and may even have deliberately lied / misled to take us to war but there is nothing he has done that puts him in the hague. You can't compare the average British squaddie with the prominent Nazi leaders who were tried at Nuremberg. Tony Blair was the country leader who ignored specialists advice and went to war by sending in the army, his soldiers obeyed their senior commanders, if they didn't they would have been arrested themselves. Tony Blair should be on trial for war crimes, he went to war against the evidence being shown him. |
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 19, 2018 16:11:37 GMT
Complicity in the deaths of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians The deaths of British service men through the supply of unsuitable equipment The illegal invasion of a sovereign nation state That will do for starters I hate Tony Blair as much as anyone but if you are wanting to convict him of war crimes then by default you are placing every british soldier who served there in the same court as the only following orders defence was as proved at Nuremburg trails not an allowable defence. Blair is a cnut and may even have deliberately lied / misled to take us to war but there is nothing he has done that puts him in the hague. Well if you can’t stick him in The Hague The old bailey will do on man slaughter charges for sending service personal to there deaths with unsuitable equipment |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2018 17:00:50 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 19, 2018 18:12:31 GMT
The suggestion might be if he's being very, very quiet it's all going to plan. This weasel has done more to devalue politicians than anyone else in my lifetime. It takes a special person to upset the left and the right in equal measure. I think you are right and this supports my belief that those deep within the establishment would never allow us to leave. I have no intention ever again of voting for a mainstream party. Who knows what the long term impact will be on the political spectrum and as a consequence whether more hard line parties start to emerge. Then again if there were more “out there” views across the political spectrum, I’m guessing the powers that be would just ban them. I assume you voted very much in favour of PR in that referendum? Our system is rigged to keep the mainstream parties in power by first past the post “democracy” which means UKIP, the Lib Dems and the Greens are completely unrepresented in Parliament whereas the DUP has an absurd amount of power for the votes they get. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 19, 2018 18:40:47 GMT
This one size fits all, EU model is simply inappropriate for the vast rich diversity across the European nations. what is good for Germany may not be good for Greece. It is not all about trade deals( not that much the current discussion is merely about trade). Political and other economic decisions and culture are just as important. Immigration decisions were made in my opinion on the trends in German population ( decline)....our situation is completely different. Democracy should be as close to the people as possible....top up. ............. Until recently, Germany's population was shrinking because not enough children were being born. Increased immigration and higher birth rates have changed the prognosis. Has a demographic crisis been averted? For many years, it was a generally accepted fact that the German population was going to fall. The Federal Statistical Office and the Federal Institute for Population Research pointed to continually low birth rates and not enough immigration as the reasons for this development. If birth rates remained constant at 1.4 children per woman and immigration at 100,000 people per year, by 2060 Germany would no longer be home to around 80 million people - the figure would have fallen to around 68 million. m.dw.com/en/germany-is-not-shrinking/a-37415327 |
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