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Post by Davef on Jun 13, 2023 18:49:21 GMT
The UK is now free to get rid of all the barriers to trade with the rest of the world which represents 84% of world trade and is growing faster than the EU. Not it's not. www.turbulenttimes.co.uk/news/latest-stories/the-slow-death-of-brexit-3/"What’s more, Britain out of the EU is not free to act unilaterally, and is still entangled in a web on international agreements and globalised regulation where divergence has real geopolitical consequences. Moreover, the establishment/blob (whatever you want to call it) believes that international law is sacrosanct – and of greater legitimacy. Brexit alone was not going to solve that."
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 13, 2023 19:45:14 GMT
The UK is now free to get rid of all the barriers to trade with the rest of the world which represents 84% of world trade and is growing faster than the EU. Not it's not. www.turbulenttimes.co.uk/news/latest-stories/the-slow-death-of-brexit-3/"What’s more, Britain out of the EU is not free to act unilaterally, and is still entangled in a web on international agreements and globalised regulation where divergence has real geopolitical consequences. Moreover, the establishment/blob (whatever you want to call it) believes that international law is sacrosanct – and of greater legitimacy. Brexit alone was not going to solve that." Yes, if you look and see before the vote I posted endlessly about the thousands of other international agreements and treaties we are a party to, and said how ridiculous it is to leave the EU for sovereignty. Sovereignty in the sort little englander brexiteers desire does not exist in a globalised world. Perhaps North Korea is closest to it.
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Post by wannabee on Jun 13, 2023 20:32:23 GMT
The UK is now free to get rid of all the barriers to trade with the rest of the world which represents 84% of world trade and is growing faster than the EU. Not it's not. www.turbulenttimes.co.uk/news/latest-stories/the-slow-death-of-brexit-3/"What’s more, Britain out of the EU is not free to act unilaterally, and is still entangled in a web on international agreements and globalised regulation where divergence has real geopolitical consequences. Moreover, the establishment/blob (whatever you want to call it) believes that international law is sacrosanct – and of greater legitimacy. Brexit alone was not going to solve that." A Blogger says we got the wrong Brexit and he knows exactly why people voted for Brexit and its all the fault of the Blob. Where have I heard that before? He so over the detail of TCA that he said "The TCA is not up for renegotiation" Wrong the TCA is formally reviewed every 5 years beginning 2025. Never mind NI formally voting every 4 years beginning 2024 if they wish to continue the arrangement and Fishing Quotas to be reviewed in 2026. Ad hoc changes can be msde if both parties agree e.g. Windsor Framework The TCA also allows either part to give 12 months to terminate. Besides that he's totally correct. What did he think would happen when "Global Britain" left the EU? Pull out of International Agreements each of which partially "lends" Sovereignty to the Grouping it belongs to.
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Post by smallthorner on Jun 13, 2023 21:40:32 GMT
60% of people now think it was the wrong decision to leave the EU. Wow. Who are the 40%!? Inconceivable that anyone who knows anything about the issue could possibly think it was the right decision. But I guess we have a very uneducated electorate Mmm. ..Controversial choice of words there. Think it's more about a proportion of people don't like admitting they were duped, conned and blind-sided by a bunch of charlatans and liars. It's of no consequence now but the 350 bus still makes me angry.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 14, 2023 7:54:25 GMT
Who are the 40%!? Inconceivable that anyone who knows anything about the issue could possibly think it was the right decision. But I guess we have a very uneducated electorate Mmm. ..Controversial choice of words there. Think it's more about a proportion of people don't like admitting they were duped, conned and blind-sided by a bunch of charlatans and liars. It's of no consequence now but the 350 bus still makes me angry. How were they conned in the first place? Because of a lack of education so they were unable to see through the lies.
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Post by smallthorner on Jun 14, 2023 12:56:32 GMT
Mmm. ..Controversial choice of words there. Think it's more about a proportion of people don't like admitting they were duped, conned and blind-sided by a bunch of charlatans and liars. It's of no consequence now but the 350 bus still makes me angry. How were they conned in the first place? Because of a lack of education so they were unable to see through the lies. Rubbish.
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Post by phileetin on Jun 14, 2023 13:11:56 GMT
daily mirror blames brexit on increase in gonorrhea and syphillis . Apparently not enough other types to replace eu toilet cleaners .
brexit even to blame for lack of covid preparedness .
what next ?
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 14, 2023 16:58:48 GMT
How were they conned in the first place? Because of a lack of education so they were unable to see through the lies. Rubbish. What is? 70% of people without formal qualifications voted leave. 25% of those with a degree voted leave. Education about EU membership would have meant nobody would have believed Johnson’s bus, or Farage’s claims about Turkey imminently joining the EU, or the EU army claims, or leaving would mean we have more control over immigration and particularly asylum seekers.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 14, 2023 17:00:12 GMT
daily mirror blames brexit on increase in gonorrhea and syphillis . Apparently not enough other types to replace eu toilet cleaners . brexit even to blame for lack of covid preparedness . what next ? It’s certainly part of reason we weren’t prepared for a pandemic as it used up all our resources preparing for Brexit and all the potential outcomes.
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Post by tuum on Jun 14, 2023 17:35:40 GMT
What is? 70% of people without formal qualifications voted leave. 25% of those with a degree voted leave. Education about EU membership would have meant nobody would have believed Johnson’s bus, or Farage’s claims about Turkey imminently joining the EU, or the EU army claims, or leaving would mean we have more control over immigration and particularly asylum seekers. Educated is not the same as intelligent. 70% = this is shit, there must be something better? Could also be 30% this is proper shit and 40% this is shit let's give the govt a bloody nose! 25% = I'm alright Jack pull the ladder up.
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Post by smallthorner on Jun 14, 2023 18:56:51 GMT
What is? 70% of people without formal qualifications voted leave. 25% of those with a degree voted leave. Education about EU membership would have meant nobody would have believed Johnson’s bus, or Farage’s claims about Turkey imminently joining the EU, or the EU army claims, or leaving would mean we have more control over immigration and particularly asylum seekers. I've generally agreed with most of your sentiments and politics on this thread but genuinely think you are wide of the mark on this point. I also think you are being quite disrespectful to people like me and millions of others who left school with 3 o levels but went on to have reasonably successful careers in the real world. People were duped and conned and historically ingrained anti EU. The generation issue was also a major factor. Reckon most people over 75 voted leave. (And a few of them went to university 😉)
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 14, 2023 19:24:54 GMT
What is? 70% of people without formal qualifications voted leave. 25% of those with a degree voted leave. Education about EU membership would have meant nobody would have believed Johnson’s bus, or Farage’s claims about Turkey imminently joining the EU, or the EU army claims, or leaving would mean we have more control over immigration and particularly asylum seekers. I've generally agreed with most of your sentiments and politics on this thread but genuinely think you are wide of the mark on this point. I also think you are being quite disrespectful to people like me and millions of others who left school with 3 o levels but went on to have reasonably successful careers in the real world. People were duped and conned and historically ingrained anti EU. The generation issue was also a major factor. Reckon most people over 75 voted leave. (And a few of them went to university 😉) It isn’t disrespectful. It is a fact: blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/brexit-inequality-and-the-demographic-divide/“ differences in voting patterns appear to divide along the lines of age (above all else), then by social attitudes, and then by education, with older, socially conservative and less well-educated voters more likely to vote to leave the EU than younger, socially liberal and better educated voters.”
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Post by iancransonsknees on Jun 14, 2023 19:32:47 GMT
I've generally agreed with most of your sentiments and politics on this thread but genuinely think you are wide of the mark on this point. I also think you are being quite disrespectful to people like me and millions of others who left school with 3 o levels but went on to have reasonably successful careers in the real world. People were duped and conned and historically ingrained anti EU. The generation issue was also a major factor. Reckon most people over 75 voted leave. (And a few of them went to university 😉) It isn’t disrespectful. It is a fact: blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/brexit-inequality-and-the-demographic-divide/“ differences in voting patterns appear to divide along the lines of age (above all else), then by social attitudes, and then by education, with older, socially conservative and less well-educated voters more likely to vote to leave the EU than younger, socially liberal and better educated voters.” So what's the educated level barometer then and why would where you sit on this make you more inclined to vote in a certain direction?
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 14, 2023 19:35:32 GMT
What is? 70% of people without formal qualifications voted leave. 25% of those with a degree voted leave. Education about EU membership would have meant nobody would have believed Johnson’s bus, or Farage’s claims about Turkey imminently joining the EU, or the EU army claims, or leaving would mean we have more control over immigration and particularly asylum seekers. Educated is not the same as intelligent. 70% = this is shit, there must be something better? Could also be 30% this is proper shit and 40% this is shit let's give the govt a bloody nose! 25% = I'm alright Jack pull the ladder up. Obviously education is not the same as intelligence. Else the 25% with degrees who voted leave would have had the intelligence not to!
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jun 14, 2023 19:39:04 GMT
Educated is not the same as intelligent. 70% = this is shit, there must be something better? Could also be 30% this is proper shit and 40% this is shit let's give the govt a bloody nose! 25% = I'm alright Jack pull the ladder up. Obviously education is not the same as intelligence. Else the 25% with degrees who voted leave would have had the intelligence not to! God almighty how on earth are you going to get off that high horse? Pathetic
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 14, 2023 19:40:11 GMT
It isn’t disrespectful. It is a fact: blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/brexit-inequality-and-the-demographic-divide/“ differences in voting patterns appear to divide along the lines of age (above all else), then by social attitudes, and then by education, with older, socially conservative and less well-educated voters more likely to vote to leave the EU than younger, socially liberal and better educated voters.” So what's the educated level barometer then and why would where you sit on this make you more inclined to vote in a certain direction? I don’t know about a barometer. Perhaps more educated people are more likely to have learned about the EU and what being a member does and does not mean, and so they were more likely to vote remain as a result. Age is about the biggest determining factor for the brexit vote. Why did older people generally get it so wrong?
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 14, 2023 19:45:37 GMT
Obviously education is not the same as intelligence. Else the 25% with degrees who voted leave would have had the intelligence not to! God almighty how on earth are you going to get off that high horse? Pathetic Badger, do you not sense that I was making a joke? Or does it perhaps cut too close for you? It doesn’t detract from the facts I am posting about more educated people (not necessarily more intelligent people) generally voting remain, and less educated people (not necessarily less intelligent people) generally voting leave. That was the fact I was picked up upon and questioned about.
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Post by iancransonsknees on Jun 14, 2023 19:48:10 GMT
So what's the educated level barometer then and why would where you sit on this make you more inclined to vote in a certain direction? I don’t know about a barometer. Perhaps more educated people are more likely to have learned about the EU and what being a member does and does not mean, and so they were more likely to vote remain as a result. Age is about the biggest determining factor for the brexit vote. Why did older people generally get it so wrong? But why would a higher level of education make you more likely to favour the EU?
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 14, 2023 20:08:43 GMT
I don’t know about a barometer. Perhaps more educated people are more likely to have learned about the EU and what being a member does and does not mean, and so they were more likely to vote remain as a result. Age is about the biggest determining factor for the brexit vote. Why did older people generally get it so wrong? But why would a higher level of education make you more likely to favour the EU? Perhaps those with a degree get secretly brainwashed to love the EU! Perhaps they are better able to spot bullshit spouted by politicians. Perhaps they are more likely to read about this thing called the EU and what being a member means. Nobody can conclusively say. For me, studying EU law and UK constitutional law made me understand how our membership of the EU worked, and made me knowledgeable about how the EU works, and it helped me understand the positive impact membership has had on the UK.
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Post by smallthorner on Jun 14, 2023 20:30:01 GMT
I think it's more to do with age and social conditions than having a degree.
My immediate adult close family comprises twelve adults (40+)
Five voted remain and seven voted leave.
Three of the seven obtained degrees.
The five who voted remain all left school at 16 and pursued worthwhile responsible careers.
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Post by mtrstudent on Jun 14, 2023 20:47:44 GMT
I don’t know about a barometer. Perhaps more educated people are more likely to have learned about the EU and what being a member does and does not mean, and so they were more likely to vote remain as a result. Age is about the biggest determining factor for the brexit vote. Why did older people generally get it so wrong? But why would a higher level of education make you more likely to favour the EU? "Dominic Cummings, argues that the better educated are more prone to holding irrational political opinions because they are more driven by fashion and a group mentality." That's one theory!
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Post by iancransonsknees on Jun 14, 2023 20:54:35 GMT
All higher education provides is shiny pieces of paper and the rudimental skills and understanding of theories which may or may not apply in the work place or real world. Achieving a level of educational attainment doesn't immediately imbue superior intelligence on those 'lucky' enough to experience it.
That's why I fail to understand the snobbery around it, it's nothing more than another form of classism.
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Post by wannabee on Jun 14, 2023 20:55:48 GMT
I think trying to analyse why people voted Leave or Remain is rather pointless, the fact is a majority did for a myriad of reasons I'm not even sure if whether either Campaign was honest unless criminal or foreign interference was involved is relevant either, its not going to change the result. What is relevant is unless your a Pinball Wizard it was the wrong decision for the Economy Conservatives dare not admit it, Labour won't discuss it. Of the two options the ones most likely to attempt to repair the damage if not restore completely are Labour, quite likely with more confidence when they have the power to do so.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2023 0:58:47 GMT
I’d actually have more respect for people if they just had the balls to fess up to being in favour of some sort of intellect weighted system for voting credits, rather than getting close to that line then nervously backtracking.
It’s an appalling suggestion (not that I’ve seen it explicitly proposed but I’m sure someone somewhere has) but if you’re going to harp on about how dumb the other side is then at least have the balls to admit you think it might be worth a try.
I’d like to see it trialled for no other reason than the satisfaction of knowing that, ironically, many of the proponents would find themselves severely disappointed and humbled to discover their newly awarded personal voting might under the new system.
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Post by mtrstudent on Jun 15, 2023 1:45:54 GMT
All higher education provides is shiny pieces of paper and the rudimental skills and understanding of theories which may or may not apply in the work place or real world. Achieving a level of educational attainment doesn't immediately imbue superior intelligence on those 'lucky' enough to experience it. That's why I fail to understand the snobbery around it, it's nothing more than another form of classism. I don't like the snobbery either. Respect for getting a degree, it takes commitment. The same respect goes for doing a solid apprenticeship or working hard on a career, as a caretaker or volunteer though.
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Post by tuum on Jun 15, 2023 2:54:09 GMT
Educated is not the same as intelligent. 70% = this is shit, there must be something better? Could also be 30% this is proper shit and 40% this is shit let's give the govt a bloody nose! 25% = I'm alright Jack pull the ladder up. Obviously education is not the same as intelligence. Else the 25% with degrees who voted leave would have had the intelligence not to! My apologies. I misread your original post. My reply to you re. the 25% was not relevant. Serves me right for trying to show how intelligent/educated I was
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 15, 2023 6:54:37 GMT
All higher education provides is shiny pieces of paper and the rudimental skills and understanding of theories which may or may not apply in the work place or real world. Achieving a level of educational attainment doesn't immediately imbue superior intelligence on those 'lucky' enough to experience it. That's why I fail to understand the snobbery around it, it's nothing more than another form of classism. Would you prefer a surgeon who studied medicine operating on you, or one who skipped medical school and somehow went straight into working in a hospital, with you as their 1st patient? Would you prefer a Judge presiding over your case who hasn’t studied law at any point so doesn’t understand the system, the cases or the history of it? Research in universities is where vast numbers of human advancements have come from. Inventions, medical breakthroughs, new technologies, etc. literally an endless list of achievements from universities, and people studying there. You are talking utter bullshit.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 15, 2023 6:55:02 GMT
All higher education provides is shiny pieces of paper and the rudimental skills and understanding of theories which may or may not apply in the work place or real world. Achieving a level of educational attainment doesn't immediately imbue superior intelligence on those 'lucky' enough to experience it. That's why I fail to understand the snobbery around it, it's nothing more than another form of classism. I don't like the snobbery either. Respect for getting a degree, it takes commitment. The same respect goes for doing a solid apprenticeship or working hard on a career, as a caretaker or volunteer though. Absolutely
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 15, 2023 6:57:40 GMT
I’d actually have more respect for people if they just had the balls to fess up to being in favour of some sort of intellect weighted system for voting credits, rather than getting close to that line then nervously backtracking. It’s an appalling suggestion (not that I’ve seen it explicitly proposed but I’m sure someone somewhere has) but if you’re going to harp on about how dumb the other side is then at least have the balls to admit you think it might be worth a try. I’d like to see it trialled for no other reason than the satisfaction of knowing that, ironically, many of the proponents would find themselves severely disappointed and humbled to discover their newly awarded personal voting might under the new system. The big flaw is it would undermine democracy and so it is a terrible idea. For one off votes (brexit) i was in favour of your voting being worth the higher of 1, or 100 minus your age, as the younger people have to live with the consequences for longer. That’s fine because democracy has already gone out the window for a one off referendum because it isn’t democratic if the vote is never repeated.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2023 11:10:20 GMT
I’d actually have more respect for people if they just had the balls to fess up to being in favour of some sort of intellect weighted system for voting credits, rather than getting close to that line then nervously backtracking. It’s an appalling suggestion (not that I’ve seen it explicitly proposed but I’m sure someone somewhere has) but if you’re going to harp on about how dumb the other side is then at least have the balls to admit you think it might be worth a try. I’d like to see it trialled for no other reason than the satisfaction of knowing that, ironically, many of the proponents would find themselves severely disappointed and humbled to discover their newly awarded personal voting might under the new system. The big flaw is it would undermine democracy and so it is a terrible idea. For one off votes (brexit) i was in favour of your voting being worth the higher of 1, or 100 minus your age, as the younger people have to live with the consequences for longer. That’s fine because democracy has already gone out the window for a one off referendum because it isn’t democratic if the vote is never repeated. I don’t understand the mentality of thinking it’s anything but a horrific idea to hand (even more) power to adolescents, even if you argue a once in a generation referendum doesn’t fall under the umbrella of conventional democratic rules. Some of the most dangerous and diseased ideologies of modern times are powered by “educated” youth. (Of course recognising that my characterisation of these movements/this culture is subjective and many here will strongly disagree, but my opinion here is absolutely a hill I’d be willing to die on) The only debate in my mind is whether 16 or 18 is the correct age to start voting. No votes for under 18s was a huge point of contention for the remain campaign but then the younger the person the least likely they are to vote anyway, so would votes for 16/17 year olds have even swung the pendulum anyway? Personally I think the age at which you’re legally allowed to be employed full time is the age you should be able to vote, but not sure what age that is these day as I believe hearing that college until 18 became mandatory after I left school? Maybe I’m mistaken there. And then the mentality of telling older people; who have far more life experience and have generally contributed far more to society, that their vote is worth less than that of a teenager, is quite frankly an offensive suggestion. I wonder if anyone was proposing age based voting credits pre-referendum? It feels more to me like an idea that remain voters adopted post-referendum when the statistics on demographics became apparent. So, whilst recognising that we all have our biases and not criticising you here, I highly doubt you would be making any concessions if remain had won because old people had voted for it, and I was making the argument you’re currently making.
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