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Post by mrcoke on Jul 5, 2021 19:00:55 GMT
"there are few if any Brexiteers who argued that leaving the EU would lead to an immediate improvement in trading or the economy;".. seriously? there were numerous saying exactly that, especially on this board! I appreciate the detail of your post but like your comment about "emerging markets" your position has more holes in it than a piece of Swiss cheese.. He also keeps banging on about how emerging markets are outpacing the EU in terms of growth %, yet doesn't grasp that's it's all relative. Well, I think he does, but that it's just a weak attempt to pull the wool over peoples eyes. A bit like his attempt last week of saying the car industry is a whopping '30x' that of the fishing industry, which itself represents significantly less than 1% of GDP. The car industry itself fits somewhere in the 7% manufacturing GDP. He loves throwing in home-made stats that might look impressive on the face of it, but when you scratch below the surface they're nothing but snippits aimed at misleading the lesser informed. I must be getting thin skinned in my old age and rising to your baiting, but here goes: The fishing industry is generally agreed to contribute c. £1 billion pa to the UK economy. The car industry size depends on what you count, figures quoted vary between c £18 billion and c.£50 billion pa. www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/02/brexit-fishing-gamble-suggests-no-10-forgot-its-economics-homeworkwww.gov.uk/government/news/fishing-industry-in-2019-statistics-publisheden.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_in_the_United_KingdomI quoted 30 times to be conservative in stating the importance of the car industry in reply to your post in which you described the car industry as "peanuts". (or were you trying to be sarcastic?) I don't consider 7% insignificant. How many other manufacturing industries are bigger? Automotive exports are one of the UK's biggest goods exports and extremely important to the UK economy. The world economy has changed dramatically over the last 20 years; "emerging markets" are becoming very significant to the world economy. The EU share of the world economy is declining rapidly. India's industry is massive and growing rapidly. Singapore has one of the most technically advanced economies in the world. But what is most important for the UK about these countries (China, India, ASEAN group) is many of them now have mature manufacturing industries with rapidly growing middle class* populations that present a huge opportunity for the UK as they are potential customers to UK's large service industry. The service industries of those economies will grow very rapidly. The growth of these markets is now becoming very significant in absolute terms having been large in % growth terms for many years. The economies of South Korea and Indonesia are the same order of size as Spain, the EU's 4th largest economy, other Eastern economies are outgrowing many smaller EU economies. * By middle class I refer to people with disposable income and able to buy luxury goods, high tech products, invest, travel, etc. The growth the Eastern economies is also becoming increasingly important to the UK in term of imports and inward investment. China has displaced Germany as highest country the UK imports from. India is a major investor in the UK with Tata the largest manufacturing employer. Whereas imports from the EU are declining. There has been large investment by EU countries in the UK in the past, particularly French companies in utilities and cement, but it seems to be declining, with the major investments from the Americas and the east. It is important to be self sufficient as far as possible but it is also important to have balanced trade with countries. If we expect the rapidly growing economies to buy from us, we need to buy from them and avoid the sort of massive imbalance of trade the UK has had with the EU, reaching £60 billion pa pre pandemic.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 7, 2021 17:34:18 GMT
To absolutely no-one's great surprise, I imagine... www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57753277So, longer hours and less rest for truck drivers...what could possibly go wrong? From the RAC website: "Truck drivers hours cannot be taken lightly, and infringements can be heavily penalised, both for the driver and the company, and can even lead to the loss of an operator’s licence should they be repeat offenders. Drivers also need to be aware of why we have strict restrictions on the hours they can spend both behind the wheel and at work; it’s about making roads safer. A tired driver is a lethal driver and no driver wants a fatality on their record – or their conscience". Good old Brexit Britain, the race to the bottom continues apace, on so many levels.
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 7, 2021 18:15:33 GMT
To absolutely no-one's great surprise, I imagine... www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57753277So, longer hours and less rest for truck drivers...what could possibly go wrong? From the RAC website: "Truck drivers hours cannot be taken lightly, and infringements can be heavily penalised, both for the driver and the company, and can even lead to the loss of an operator’s licence should they be repeat offenders. Drivers also need to be aware of why we have strict restrictions on the hours they can spend both behind the wheel and at work; it’s about making roads safer. A tired driver is a lethal driver and no driver wants a fatality on their record – or their conscience". Good old Brexit Britain, the race to the bottom continues apace, on so many levels. A special gift for you. An iconic song from the birth of punk…
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 7, 2021 18:21:45 GMT
To absolutely no-one's great surprise, I imagine... www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57753277So, longer hours and less rest for truck drivers...what could possibly go wrong? From the RAC website: "Truck drivers hours cannot be taken lightly, and infringements can be heavily penalised, both for the driver and the company, and can even lead to the loss of an operator’s licence should they be repeat offenders. Drivers also need to be aware of why we have strict restrictions on the hours they can spend both behind the wheel and at work; it’s about making roads safer. A tired driver is a lethal driver and no driver wants a fatality on their record – or their conscience". Good old Brexit Britain, the race to the bottom continues apace, on so many levels. A special gift for you. An iconic song from the birth of punk… Lighten up and grow up, partick
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Post by mrcoke on Jul 7, 2021 18:40:47 GMT
To absolutely no-one's great surprise, I imagine... www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57753277So, longer hours and less rest for truck drivers...what could possibly go wrong? From the RAC website: "Truck drivers hours cannot be taken lightly, and infringements can be heavily penalised, both for the driver and the company, and can even lead to the loss of an operator’s licence should they be repeat offenders. Drivers also need to be aware of why we have strict restrictions on the hours they can spend both behind the wheel and at work; it’s about making roads safer. A tired driver is a lethal driver and no driver wants a fatality on their record – or their conscience". Good old Brexit Britain, the race to the bottom continues apace, on so many levels. I am not in favour of reducing driving rule standards. Why are you posting this on the Brexit thread? I have been occused of being one eyed on the EU, which as it happens I am not. I have changed my mind from being very pro membership to very anti. Why is there a lorry driver shortage, estimated at 60,000? www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-57587253Reasons: 1. There is a natural turnover of drivers as with all jobs. The pandemic resulted in a drop in 30,000 drivers being qualified to drive due the pandemic impact on training and driver exams/tests. 2. The pandemic boosted the amount of ecommerce by 46% in 2020. This has put a huge increase in demand on postal and delivery services. The Post Office have for the first time in nearly 200 years history have started parcel collection. Many lorry drivers were on reduced hours during the start of the pandemic and moved into delivery van work. Many have found it more enjoyable, less stressful, and prefer to sleep in their own bed at night. Even though their old jobs are back in demand and pay better, many prefer a better life style/quality of life. The increase in delivery drivers has been massive. Many companies have started delivering for the first time. My local Morrisons took on 50 leased delivery vans, so goodness knows how many drivers. 3. Many foreign workers went to their homeland at the start of the pandemic to be with their families. A doctor I know went back to India to look after his parents. He got trapped their unable to come back due to travel restrictions. Many do not intent to return till it is safe as they have been unable to get their vaccinations in their homeland. 4. Then there is Brexit. There is 6 million applicants for UK residency which has totally overwhelmed the authorities. It is apparent many of the applicants are not in the UK having gone back to their homelands due the lockdowns. Now many are waiting for their residency to be confirmed before they come back to the UK. Brexit will not have helped the shortage of drivers as with a great many other professions, but it clear that pandemic is the over-riding reason, but if you want to be one eyed and blame the problem on Brexit no one can stop you.
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 7, 2021 18:41:56 GMT
A special gift for you. An iconic song from the birth of punk… Lighten up and grow up, partick Proto punk not to your taste? Maybe miserablist Manc is more your thing…
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 7, 2021 18:46:13 GMT
To absolutely no-one's great surprise, I imagine... www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57753277So, longer hours and less rest for truck drivers...what could possibly go wrong? From the RAC website: "Truck drivers hours cannot be taken lightly, and infringements can be heavily penalised, both for the driver and the company, and can even lead to the loss of an operator’s licence should they be repeat offenders. Drivers also need to be aware of why we have strict restrictions on the hours they can spend both behind the wheel and at work; it’s about making roads safer. A tired driver is a lethal driver and no driver wants a fatality on their record – or their conscience". Good old Brexit Britain, the race to the bottom continues apace, on so many levels. I am not in favour of reducing driving rule standards. Why are you posting this on the Brexit thread?I have been occused of being one eyed on the EU, which as it happens I am not. I have changed my mind from being very pro membership to very anti. Why is there a lorry driver shortage, estimated at 60,000? www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-57587253Reasons: 1. There is a natural turnover of drivers as with all jobs. The pandemic resulted in a drop in 30,000 drivers being qualified to drive due the pandemic impact on training and driver exams/tests. 2. The pandemic boosted the amount of ecommerce by 46% in 2020. This has put a huge increase in demand on postal and delivery services. The Post Office have for the first time in nearly 200 years history have started parcel collection. Many lorry drivers were on reduced hours during the start of the pandemic and moved into delivery van work. Many have found it more enjoyable, less stressful, and prefer to sleep in their own bed at night. Even though their old jobs are back in demand and pay better, many prefer a better life style/quality of life. The increase in delivery drivers has been massive. Many companies have started delivering for the first time. My local Morrisons took on 50 leased delivery vans, so goodness knows how many drivers. 3. Many foreign workers went to their homeland at the start of the pandemic to be with their families. A doctor I know went back to India to look after his parents. He got trapped their unable to come back due to travel restrictions. Many do not intent to return till it is safe as they have been unable to get their vaccinations in their homeland. 4. Then there is Brexit. There is 6 million applicants for UK residency which has totally overwhelmed the authorities. It is apparent many of the applicants are not in the UK having gone back to their homelands due the lockdowns. Now many are waiting for their residency to be confirmed before they come back to the UK. Brexit will not have helped the shortage of drivers as with a great many other professions, but it clear that pandemic is the over-riding reason, but if you want to be one eyed and blame the problem on Brexit no one can stop you. www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/07/04/shortage-lorry-drivers-raises-spectre-empty-shelves/"With more than a quarter of the UK's food coming from the EU, many corner shops are already reporting shortages and experts begin to worrying about Christmas. Dairy giant Arla, Evian, Volvic and Haribo have all admitted they haven't been able to dispatch orders. Some local authorities are reporting they haven't been able to fulfil their contractual obligations to collect waste. Haulage firms in the UK have been supported by 60,000 eastern European drivers, but many have returned home during the pandemic and Brexit has made it difficult for them to return.One of the proposed solutions is to relax regulations around driver hours, a move not supported by the Road Haulage Association who described it as creating a road safety risk." More knocking the country no doubt, whereas this is just reporting the reality of pandemic Brexit Britain. I wonder if Boris will backtrack on all the immigration bollocks that was so effective during the referendum. Nothing if not ironic how Brexit and the pandemic have shown the value of these immigrants...!
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Post by mrcoke on Jul 8, 2021 18:32:15 GMT
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 8, 2021 19:04:55 GMT
The new deal builds on the rollover agreement the UK signed before it left the EU's economic zone. The Norwegian government said the deal with the UK would not restore all the advantages it had when both countries were in the EEA. In terms of their overall trade volumes, this deal is more significant for Norway and Iceland than it is for the UK. But politically, it's really important for the post-Brexit British government to show that new trade deals are being done quickly. Even if - as the Norwegian side points out - it is less open than the previous relationship inside the same single market.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Jul 8, 2021 19:33:31 GMT
Albeit deals that are inferior to the ones we had as an EU member trading with EEA countries. David Henig, a former UK government trade official who is now director of the UK Trade Policy Project, said: “This UK-EEA free trade agreement provides better trading conditions than World Trade Organization terms, though with considerably more trade barriers when compared with the previous single market relationship. “There are some useful provisions for UK business such as on professional qualifications or digital trade, but there will also be many difficulties as we see with the similar UK-EU trade and cooperation agreement. Overall this is quite a standard free trade agreement, with limited economic value.” Hardly something for Brexiters to be crowing about I would have thought- but then again it always was more about headline than substance.
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Post by foster on Jul 8, 2021 19:43:56 GMT
Albeit deals that are inferior to the ones we had as an EU member trading with EEA countries. David Henig, a former UK government trade official who is now director of the UK Trade Policy Project, said: “This UK-EEA free trade agreement provides better trading conditions than World Trade Organization terms, though with considerably more trade barriers when compared with the previous single market relationship. “There are some useful provisions for UK business such as on professional qualifications or digital trade, but there will also be many difficulties as we see with the similar UK-EU trade and cooperation agreement. Overall this is quite a standard free trade agreement, with limited economic value.” Hardly something for Brexiters to be crowing about I would have thought- but then again it always was more about headline than substance.Not like Mrjoke to try and mislead people
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Post by mrcoke on Jul 8, 2021 20:04:35 GMT
Albeit deals that are inferior to the ones we had as an EU member trading with EEA countries. David Henig, a former UK government trade official who is now director of the UK Trade Policy Project, said: “This UK-EEA free trade agreement provides better trading conditions than World Trade Organization terms, though with considerably more trade barriers when compared with the previous single market relationship. “There are some useful provisions for UK business such as on professional qualifications or digital trade, but there will also be many difficulties as we see with the similar UK-EU trade and cooperation agreement. Overall this is quite a standard free trade agreement, with limited economic value.” Hardly something for Brexiters to be crowing about I would have thought- but then again it always was more about headline than substance. Not crowing, just pointing out deals being done that remainers said: Little Britain would not be able to negotiate, Trade deals would take years to agree, Trade deals would be inferior to EU deals, whereas Japan deal is better there is commitment to an improved deal with Canada, and a deal concluded with Australia, with others under negotiation. Oh! and we still have a goods trade deal with the EU which is crap for Northern Ireland and our massive food exporting industry (?), but never mind. Look Boris is waving at us: www.economist.com/britain/2021/07/10/britains-car-industry-is-finding-brexit-far-less-of-a-problem-than-expected
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Post by foster on Jul 8, 2021 20:11:59 GMT
Albeit deals that are inferior to the ones we had as an EU member trading with EEA countries. David Henig, a former UK government trade official who is now director of the UK Trade Policy Project, said: “This UK-EEA free trade agreement provides better trading conditions than World Trade Organization terms, though with considerably more trade barriers when compared with the previous single market relationship. “There are some useful provisions for UK business such as on professional qualifications or digital trade, but there will also be many difficulties as we see with the similar UK-EU trade and cooperation agreement. Overall this is quite a standard free trade agreement, with limited economic value.” Hardly something for Brexiters to be crowing about I would have thought- but then again it always was more about headline than substance. Not crowing, just pointing out deals being done that remainers said: Little Britain would not be able to negotiate, Trade deals would take years to agree, Trade deals would be inferior to EU deals, whereas Japan deal is better there is commitment to an improved deal with Canada, and a deal concluded with Australia, with others under negotiation. 'Remainers, remainers, remainers'... So repetitive and boring. Making out like you're some kind of patriot. You literally write the same incorrect generalising shit every post.
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Post by numpty40 on Jul 8, 2021 20:24:02 GMT
Channel 4 news tonight invited someone called Philippe Lamberts, an MEP apparently, to comment regarding the UK's decision to lift lock down. He took a very dim view of the large crowd at Wembley and suggested that Brexiteers are claiming that England are in the final due to Brexit. The EU are somewhat bitter and very twisted.
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Post by foster on Jul 8, 2021 20:28:13 GMT
Channel 4 news tonight invited someone called Philippe Lamberts, an MEP apparently, to comment regarding the UK's decision to lift lock down. He took a very dim view of the large crowd at Wembley and suggested that Brexiteers are claiming that England are in the final due to Brexit. The EU are somewhat bitter and very twisted. I've heard a few people questioning the size of the crowds we're allowing into games considering covid rules. Also mentioning home advantage. My reply to them has been consistent. 'Tough shit!'.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Jul 8, 2021 20:30:04 GMT
Albeit deals that are inferior to the ones we had as an EU member trading with EEA countries. David Henig, a former UK government trade official who is now director of the UK Trade Policy Project, said: “This UK-EEA free trade agreement provides better trading conditions than World Trade Organization terms, though with considerably more trade barriers when compared with the previous single market relationship. “There are some useful provisions for UK business such as on professional qualifications or digital trade, but there will also be many difficulties as we see with the similar UK-EU trade and cooperation agreement. Overall this is quite a standard free trade agreement, with limited economic value.” Hardly something for Brexiters to be crowing about I would have thought- but then again it always was more about headline than substance. Not crowing, just pointing out deals being done that remainers said: Little Britain would not be able to negotiate, Trade deals would take years to agree, Trade deals would be inferior to EU deals, whereas Japan deal is better there is commitment to an improved deal with Canada, and a deal concluded with Australia, with others under negotiation. Oh! and we still have a goods trade deal with the EU which is crap for Northern Ireland and our massive food exporting industry (?), but never mind. Look Boris is waving at us: www.economist.com/britain/2021/07/10/britains-car-industry-is-finding-brexit-far-less-of-a-problem-than-expectedHowever I thought all this was about Britannia Unchained - doing deals it would be impossible to do whilst 'shackled' to the EU. Well - we kicked off with a trade deal with the EU which must be the only trade deal in human history where worse terms were negotiated than the ones that ready existed. The vast majority of all other deals done are either 'rollover' or replication of deals that the EU did for us - no improvement - so no guarantee we would have got there on our own - the jury is actually out on whether the Japan deal is really any better than the 'do nothing' option, we've managed to negotiate worse deals than we already had with Iceland (population approx size of Wigan) and Lichtenstein (so small it has no airport) - so clearly maximising our leverage there!! -and the Australia deal (worth 0.02% GDP) will take years to come into effect and looks a far better deal for them than us. You've got what you want so get on and deliver - (and don't give me the "jam tomorrow line") but as someone far more eloquent than me once said " I can see your broken eggs but where is this omlette you've been telling me about?"
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 8, 2021 20:57:38 GMT
Channel 4 news tonight invited someone called Philippe Lamberts, an MEP apparently, to comment regarding the UK's decision to lift lock down. He took a very dim view of the large crowd at Wembley and suggested that Brexiteers are claiming that England are in the final due to Brexit. The EU are somewhat bitter and very twisted. We’ll, it’s a fact that, as a member of the EU, from the first of January 1973 to the 31st of January 2020 we never made the final of a major national football tournament. So it’s clear, It’s Brexit wot has done it.
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Post by numpty40 on Jul 8, 2021 21:20:58 GMT
Channel 4 news tonight invited someone called Philippe Lamberts, an MEP apparently, to comment regarding the UK's decision to lift lock down. He took a very dim view of the large crowd at Wembley and suggested that Brexiteers are claiming that England are in the final due to Brexit. The EU are somewhat bitter and very twisted. We’ll, it’s a fact that, as a member of the EU, from the first of January 1973 to the 31st of January 2020 we never made the final of a major national football tournament. So it’s clear, It’s Brexit wot has done it. To be fair we've been a part of Europe since the 1400's, it's taken a while to come home.
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 8, 2021 21:29:04 GMT
We’ll, it’s a fact that, as a member of the EU, from the first of January 1973 to the 31st of January 2020 we never made the final of a major national football tournament. So it’s clear, It’s Brexit wot has done it. To be fair we've been a part of Europe since the 1400's, it's taken a while to come home. I guess you could say as far back as 1066, maybe even a thousand or so years before that!
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Post by mrcoke on Jul 8, 2021 22:46:52 GMT
Not crowing, just pointing out deals being done that remainers said: Little Britain would not be able to negotiate, Trade deals would take years to agree, Trade deals would be inferior to EU deals, whereas Japan deal is better there is commitment to an improved deal with Canada, and a deal concluded with Australia, with others under negotiation. Oh! and we still have a goods trade deal with the EU which is crap for Northern Ireland and our massive food exporting industry (?), but never mind. Look Boris is waving at us: www.economist.com/britain/2021/07/10/britains-car-industry-is-finding-brexit-far-less-of-a-problem-than-expectedHowever I thought all this was about Britannia Unchained - doing deals it would be impossible to do whilst 'shackled' to the EU. Well - we kicked off with a trade deal with the EU which must be the only trade deal in human history where worse terms were negotiated than the ones that ready existed. The vast majority of all other deals done are either 'rollover' or replication of deals that the EU did for us - no improvement - so no guarantee we would have got there on our own - the jury is actually out on whether the Japan deal is really any better than the 'do nothing' option, we've managed to negotiate worse deals than we already had with Iceland (population approx size of Wigan) and Lichtenstein (so small it has no airport) - so clearly maximising our leverage there!! -and the Australia deal (worth 0.02% GDP) will take years to come into effect and looks a far better deal for them than us. You've got what you want so get on and deliver - (and don't give me the "jam tomorrow line") but as someone far more eloquent than me once said " I can see your broken eggs but where is this omlette you've been telling me about?" The UK is no longer shackled to the EU Commission and the ECOJ (apart from NI agreement). An independent free country like most countries in the world. Free from paying every year for 43 years for the privilege of a massive negative trade balance, and being held back from better trading terms with the RoW in the future. Your post generally and the last sentence particularly is full of doubt, scepticism, and cynicism. "Doubters do not achieve; sceptics do not contribute; cynics do not create."If we are into quotations to support our position: "Large streams from little fountains flow, Tall oaks from little acorns grow." "Rome wasn't built in a day." "Don’t judge each day by the harvest you reap but by the seeds that you plant."
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Jul 9, 2021 4:58:58 GMT
However I thought all this was about Britannia Unchained - doing deals it would be impossible to do whilst 'shackled' to the EU. Well - we kicked off with a trade deal with the EU which must be the only trade deal in human history where worse terms were negotiated than the ones that ready existed. The vast majority of all other deals done are either 'rollover' or replication of deals that the EU did for us - no improvement - so no guarantee we would have got there on our own - the jury is actually out on whether the Japan deal is really any better than the 'do nothing' option, we've managed to negotiate worse deals than we already had with Iceland (population approx size of Wigan) and Lichtenstein (so small it has no airport) - so clearly maximising our leverage there!! -and the Australia deal (worth 0.02% GDP) will take years to come into effect and looks a far better deal for them than us. You've got what you want so get on and deliver - (and don't give me the "jam tomorrow line") but as someone far more eloquent than me once said " I can see your broken eggs but where is this omlette you've been telling me about?" Your post generally and the last sentence particularly is full of doubt, scepticism, and cynicism. "Doubters do not achieve; sceptics do not contribute; cynics do not create."How very honest of you to describe your Euro-sceptic position.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 9, 2021 9:26:56 GMT
Incidentally, they seem to be taking quite a time to finalise and reveal the details of the Australia trade deal, which was agreed in principle in mid June.
What's the hold up?
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Jul 9, 2021 9:43:42 GMT
However I thought all this was about Britannia Unchained - doing deals it would be impossible to do whilst 'shackled' to the EU. Well - we kicked off with a trade deal with the EU which must be the only trade deal in human history where worse terms were negotiated than the ones that ready existed. The vast majority of all other deals done are either 'rollover' or replication of deals that the EU did for us - no improvement - so no guarantee we would have got there on our own - the jury is actually out on whether the Japan deal is really any better than the 'do nothing' option, we've managed to negotiate worse deals than we already had with Iceland (population approx size of Wigan) and Lichtenstein (so small it has no airport) - so clearly maximising our leverage there!! -and the Australia deal (worth 0.02% GDP) will take years to come into effect and looks a far better deal for them than us. You've got what you want so get on and deliver - (and don't give me the "jam tomorrow line") but as someone far more eloquent than me once said " I can see your broken eggs but where is this omlette you've been telling me about?" The UK is no longer shackled to the EU Commission and the ECOJ (apart from NI agreement). An independent free country like most countries in the world. Free from paying every year for 43 years for the privilege of a massive negative trade balance, and being held back from better trading terms with the RoW in the future. Your post generally and the last sentence particularly is full of doubt, scepticism, and cynicism. "Doubters do not achieve; sceptics do not contribute; cynics do not create."If we are into quotations to support our position: "Large streams from little fountains flow, Tall oaks from little acorns grow." "Rome wasn't built in a day." "Don’t judge each day by the harvest you reap but by the seeds that you plant."So what you are saying is I've had to give up what I had to go to a place I don't want to be for the promise of something that might never happen at some unspecified time in the future? In the neantime you cekebrate deals with tiny countries that are crapper than the ones we already had. And please don't use the word 'sceptic' against me - as that is exactly the idealogical cult that has done nothing other than look to undermine our membership of the EU and directly contributed to the rancid relationship with it we have now.
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Post by mrcoke on Jul 9, 2021 9:50:25 GMT
Incidentally, they seem to be taking quite a time to finalise and reveal the details of the Australia trade deal, which was agreed in principle in mid June. What's the hold up? "Broad terms " were agreed less than a month ago. You'll remember it takes years to negotiate a trade deal. The EU started negotiating with Australia over 3 years ago.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 9, 2021 9:51:57 GMT
Incidentally, they seem to be taking quite a time to finalise and reveal the details of the Australia trade deal, which was agreed in principle in mid June. What's the hold up? "Broad terms " were agreed less than a month ago. You'll remember it takes years to negotiate a trade deal. The EU started negotiating with Australia over 3 years ago. Are we going to have to wait years for the final details to emerge?
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Post by mrcoke on Jul 9, 2021 10:33:57 GMT
The UK is no longer shackled to the EU Commission and the ECOJ (apart from NI agreement). An independent free country like most countries in the world. Free from paying every year for 43 years for the privilege of a massive negative trade balance, and being held back from better trading terms with the RoW in the future. Your post generally and the last sentence particularly is full of doubt, scepticism, and cynicism. "Doubters do not achieve; sceptics do not contribute; cynics do not create."If we are into quotations to support our position: "Large streams from little fountains flow, Tall oaks from little acorns grow." "Rome wasn't built in a day." "Don’t judge each day by the harvest you reap but by the seeds that you plant."So what you are saying is I've had to give up what I had to go to a place I don't want to be for the promise of something that might never happen at some unspecified time in the future? In the neantime you cekebrate deals with tiny countries that are crapper than the ones we already had. And please don't use the word 'sceptic' against me - as that is exactly the idealogical cult that has done nothing other than look to undermine our membership of the EU and directly contributed to the rancid relationship with it we have now. Your first paragraph is correct. I voted for Brexit for sovereignty which has been achieved. Yes it will take an unspecified time to unpick decades of EU membership. Hold long will depend on how long people fight against it. It sounds like we are going to have to pay the EU more for the divorce according to today's news. That is largely because we didn't get on and leave in 2016 and spent years arguing between ourselves, giving encouragement to the EU that the UK could be forced to follow all future EU legislation. One senior EU negotiator thought the UK would capitulate and not leave. I apologise if you are not sceptical about the UK trade deals, which I am not celebrating but simply highlighting what remainers said would take years to achieve. I do hold a very negative attitude to the EU CAP dumping excess food production in the third world and calling it "trade", EU raping the seas with over fishing, EU Euro, EU Commission committed to ever closer union, EU Parliament moving back and forth, EU military force, EU common foreign policy, EU unemployment, where east European newly qualified medical students move the the West to stack supermarket shelves, where high unemployment force people in southern and eastern Europe to leave home to find work, EU moves to fiscal union with the pandemic recovery fund, EU moving to majority voting to overrule individual countries, etc. In the 1970's I heard the warnings from Benn and Shaw about European unity, but believed the arguments in favour of economic benefits and ensuring peace were stronger. I voted remain. During the subsequent 4 decades my views changed to doubt, shrugging acceptance* following Thatcher negotiating the rebate, scepticism, annoyance with the duplicity, and finally opposition. * many Europeans I've met (mainly Scandanavians) are fully aware of the defects of the EU, but feel helpless and shrug their shoulders and feel they are trapped. Many Europeans I know are very happy with the EU (mainly Germans, French, Benelux nations, Austrians) it has brought them a comfortable lifestyle and huge positive trade balances.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Jul 9, 2021 11:17:36 GMT
So what you are saying is I've had to give up what I had to go to a place I don't want to be for the promise of something that might never happen at some unspecified time in the future? In the neantime you cekebrate deals with tiny countries that are crapper than the ones we already had. And please don't use the word 'sceptic' against me - as that is exactly the idealogical cult that has done nothing other than look to undermine our membership of the EU and directly contributed to the rancid relationship with it we have now. Your first paragraph is correct. I voted for Brexit for sovereignty which has been achieved. Yes it will take an unspecified time to unpick decades of EU membership. Hold long will depend on how long people fight against it. It sounds like we are going to have to pay the EU more for the divorce according to today's news. That is largely because we didn't get on and leave in 2016 and spent years arguing between ourselves, giving encouragement to the EU that the UK could be forced to follow all future EU legislation. One senior EU negotiator thought the UK would capitulate and not leave. I apologise if you are not sceptical about the UK trade deals, which I am not celebrating but simply highlighting what remainers said would take years to achieve. I do hold a very negative attitude to the EU CAP dumping excess food production in the third world and calling it "trade", EU raping the seas with over fishing, EU Euro, EU Commission committed to ever closer union, EU Parliament moving back and forth, EU military force, EU common foreign policy, EU unemployment, where east European newly qualified medical students move the the West to stack supermarket shelves, where high unemployment force people in southern and eastern Europe to leave home to find work, EU moves to fiscal union with the pandemic recovery fund, EU moving to majority voting to overrule individual countries, etc. In the 1970's I heard the warnings from Benn and Shaw about European unity, but believed the arguments in favour of economic benefits and ensuring peace were stronger. I voted remain. During the subsequent 4 decades my views changed to doubt, shrugging acceptance* following Thatcher negotiating the rebate, scepticism, annoyance with the duplicity, and finally opposition. * many Europeans I've met (mainly Scandanavians) are fully aware of the defects of the EU, but feel helpless and shrug their shoulders and feel they are trapped. Many Europeans I know are very happy with the EU (mainly Germans, French, Benelux nations, Austrians) it has brought them a comfortable lifestyle and huge positive trade balances. So basically it's ok to be sceptical about o the EU when we were in it but not about Brexit. Given you like posting sayings how about that one about people in glass houses?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 9, 2021 11:19:08 GMT
Your first paragraph is correct. I voted for Brexit for sovereignty which has been achieved. Yes it will take an unspecified time to unpick decades of EU membership. Hold long will depend on how long people fight against it. It sounds like we are going to have to pay the EU more for the divorce according to today's news. That is largely because we didn't get on and leave in 2016 and spent years arguing between ourselves, giving encouragement to the EU that the UK could be forced to follow all future EU legislation. One senior EU negotiator thought the UK would capitulate and not leave. I apologise if you are not sceptical about the UK trade deals, which I am not celebrating but simply highlighting what remainers said would take years to achieve. I do hold a very negative attitude to the EU CAP dumping excess food production in the third world and calling it "trade", EU raping the seas with over fishing, EU Euro, EU Commission committed to ever closer union, EU Parliament moving back and forth, EU military force, EU common foreign policy, EU unemployment, where east European newly qualified medical students move the the West to stack supermarket shelves, where high unemployment force people in southern and eastern Europe to leave home to find work, EU moves to fiscal union with the pandemic recovery fund, EU moving to majority voting to overrule individual countries, etc. In the 1970's I heard the warnings from Benn and Shaw about European unity, but believed the arguments in favour of economic benefits and ensuring peace were stronger. I voted remain. During the subsequent 4 decades my views changed to doubt, shrugging acceptance* following Thatcher negotiating the rebate, scepticism, annoyance with the duplicity, and finally opposition. * many Europeans I've met (mainly Scandanavians) are fully aware of the defects of the EU, but feel helpless and shrug their shoulders and feel they are trapped. Many Europeans I know are very happy with the EU (mainly Germans, French, Benelux nations, Austrians) it has brought them a comfortable lifestyle and huge positive trade balances. So basically it's ok to be sceptical about the EU but not about Brexit. Correct. That is knocking the country.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Jul 9, 2021 11:32:34 GMT
So what you are saying is I've had to give up what I had to go to a place I don't want to be for the promise of something that might never happen at some unspecified time in the future? In the neantime you cekebrate deals with tiny countries that are crapper than the ones we already had. And please don't use the word 'sceptic' against me - as that is exactly the idealogical cult that has done nothing other than look to undermine our membership of the EU and directly contributed to the rancid relationship with it we have now. Your first paragraph is correct. I voted for Brexit for sovereignty which has been achieved. Yes it will take an unspecified time to unpick decades of EU membership. Hold long will depend on how long people fight against it. It sounds like we are going to have to pay the EU more for the divorce according to today's news. That is largely because we didn't get on and leave in 2016 and spent years arguing between ourselves, giving encouragement to the EU that the UK could be forced to follow all future EU legislation. One senior EU negotiator thought the UK would capitulate and not leave. I apologise if you are not sceptical about the UK trade deals, which I am not celebrating but simply highlighting what remainers said would take years to achieve. I do hold a very negative attitude to the EU CAP dumping excess food production in the third world and calling it "trade", EU raping the seas with over fishing, EU Euro, EU Commission committed to ever closer union, EU Parliament moving back and forth, EU military force, EU common foreign policy, EU unemployment, where east European newly qualified medical students move the the West to stack supermarket shelves, where high unemployment force people in southern and eastern Europe to leave home to find work, EU moves to fiscal union with the pandemic recovery fund, EU moving to majority voting to overrule individual countries, etc. In the 1970's I heard the warnings from Benn and Shaw about European unity, but believed the arguments in favour of economic benefits and ensuring peace were stronger. I voted remain. During the subsequent 4 decades my views changed to doubt, shrugging acceptance* following Thatcher negotiating the rebate, scepticism, annoyance with the duplicity, and finally opposition. * many Europeans I've met (mainly Scandanavians) are fully aware of the defects of the EU, but feel helpless and shrug their shoulders and feel they are trapped. Many Europeans I know are very happy with the EU (mainly Germans, French, Benelux nations, Austrians) it has brought them a comfortable lifestyle and huge positive trade balances. Who are these people 'fighting against it?' Outside of Scotland (where its a part of a wider independence agenda) there is no remain or rejoin movement. So stop blaming other people. It's done - just badly. We have a leave government with an 80 seat majority and an opposition that daren't mention Brexit. It's completely on the govt/leavers to deliver. But it's got to deliver for everyone and it patently isn't - so what do you want fishermen, musicians, hauliers, the Northern Irish, exporters and the rest to do? - just shut up and put up. Not point out flaws and inconsistencies? Stay silent while damage is being done to economic sectors? They're worse off than they were pre- referendum and their livlihoods are going down the pan now - they're not interested in some sunlit uplands 20 years in the future when the world will be a different place anyway. Oh - and you're not highlighting anything that remainers said would take years to achieve because something that is worse than what we already had is NOT an achievement.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 9, 2021 11:38:40 GMT
Your first paragraph is correct. I voted for Brexit for sovereignty which has been achieved. Yes it will take an unspecified time to unpick decades of EU membership. Hold long will depend on how long people fight against it. It sounds like we are going to have to pay the EU more for the divorce according to today's news. That is largely because we didn't get on and leave in 2016 and spent years arguing between ourselves, giving encouragement to the EU that the UK could be forced to follow all future EU legislation. One senior EU negotiator thought the UK would capitulate and not leave. I apologise if you are not sceptical about the UK trade deals, which I am not celebrating but simply highlighting what remainers said would take years to achieve. I do hold a very negative attitude to the EU CAP dumping excess food production in the third world and calling it "trade", EU raping the seas with over fishing, EU Euro, EU Commission committed to ever closer union, EU Parliament moving back and forth, EU military force, EU common foreign policy, EU unemployment, where east European newly qualified medical students move the the West to stack supermarket shelves, where high unemployment force people in southern and eastern Europe to leave home to find work, EU moves to fiscal union with the pandemic recovery fund, EU moving to majority voting to overrule individual countries, etc. In the 1970's I heard the warnings from Benn and Shaw about European unity, but believed the arguments in favour of economic benefits and ensuring peace were stronger. I voted remain. During the subsequent 4 decades my views changed to doubt, shrugging acceptance* following Thatcher negotiating the rebate, scepticism, annoyance with the duplicity, and finally opposition. * many Europeans I've met (mainly Scandanavians) are fully aware of the defects of the EU, but feel helpless and shrug their shoulders and feel they are trapped. Many Europeans I know are very happy with the EU (mainly Germans, French, Benelux nations, Austrians) it has brought them a comfortable lifestyle and huge positive trade balances. Who are these people 'fighting against it?' Outside of Scotland (where its a part of a wider independence agenda) there is no remain or rejoin movement. So stop blaming other people. It's done - just badly. We have a leave government with an 80 seat majority and an opposition that daren't mention Brexit. It's completely on the govt/leavers to deliver. But it's got to deliver for everyone and it patently isn't - so what do you want fishermen, musicians, hauliers, the Northern Irish, exporters and the rest to do? - just shut up and put up. Not point out flaws and inconsistencies? Stay silent while damage is being done to economic sectors? They're worse off than they were pre- referendum and their livlihoods are going down the pan now - they're not interested in some sunlit uplands 20 years in the future when the world will be a different place anyway. Oh - and you're not highlighting anything that remainers said would take years to achieve because something that is worse than what we already had is NOT an achievement. Yes, basically, because to continue to scrutinise what are the effects of Brexit is somehow unpatriotic or knocking the country, if, as it appears to date, the effects are largely negative. There have been numerous examples of the negative consequences of Brexit, several of which you cited above; where are the tangible successes, which have actually made people's lives better in a meaningful way, other than the sovereignty claim which has changed people's lives how exactly? Where is the £350 mill a week going for example? Kicking out the foreigners has done what exactly for British industry and services? Etc.
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