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Post by xchpotter on Jun 17, 2021 21:03:36 GMT
Except , for me Fister, having read the treaties, the whole purpose of the EU is economic and political UNION, by ever closer union.....incremental steps , no matter how small, as long as the direction is....ever closer union. I don't want that because it undermines democracy. We did have " opt out"....but I believe because of " ever closer union" , we would not always been able to maintain them...there was already a two tier EU , the Eurogroup and the others.....the priority of the decision makers was and is the Eurogroup......eventually we would have to join or pay the price of not being in the msin group.....and at the basis of the project , you'd have to believe that the decision makers had the UK interests at heart....I don't....better off out, just like any independent country. But As we have both said The fact is We ate now Out. So We need to Let it go And come together on what is best for the nation. And try to be a decent country in relation to the rest of the world. In my opinion. I have the distinct impression you've had a few beers tonight mate Who says the Oatcake doesn’t cover a wide variety of topics. I mean, fisting, whatever next?😂😂😂
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 17, 2021 21:06:43 GMT
I have the distinct impression you've had a few beers tonight mate Who says the Oatcake doesn’t cover a wide variety of topics. I mean, fisting, whatever next?😂😂😂 I'll have to sort out this predictive XCH or check my posts. Anyway, I think fisting deserves its own thread.......do you want to go first?
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Post by foster on Jun 17, 2021 21:08:51 GMT
I have the distinct impression you've had a few beers tonight mate Who says the Oatcake doesn’t cover a wide variety of topics. I mean, fisting, whatever next?😂😂😂 Yeah I'm happy with either. There's an element of truth either way.
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Post by xchpotter on Jun 17, 2021 21:09:18 GMT
Who says the Oatcake doesn’t cover a wide variety of topics. I mean, fisting, whatever next?😂😂😂 I'll have to sort out this predictive XCH or check my posts. Anyway, I think fisting deserves its own thread.......do you want to go first? Ha ha, I’d rather not. I’m still traumatised from the brown wings thread.
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 17, 2021 22:38:54 GMT
We have had this debate before. I believe you do not have to have political union to ensure peace, economic interdependence will provide peace. The longest period of peace in Europe was under the rule of the Roman Empire, circa 200 years. Are you proposing a EU empire? It would appear so. Most nations in Europe do not want to conquer one another, they want independence. I could go into which nations in Europe are the aggressors, but that might be viewed as racist or xenophobic. Suffice to say, most of the issues in 1870 - 1945 were between two nations. The link attached herald's the virtual 100 years of relative peace after Napoleon was defeated. fee.org/articles/has-the-european-union-maintained-peace-in-europe/Do you propose a South American Union, in place of Mercosur, just in case Venezuela gets out of hand? I believe nationalism should be suppressed by education, economic interdependence, and a spirit of cooperation, not by suppression of individual countries democracy by politicians and bureaucrats who see their role to enforce people like the Basques to be subjected to a greater authority by those who know what is best for them. I do not see Nationalism and Cooperation as mutually exclusive. You are correct, we have become a divided country because most English and Welsh do not want to be subjected to rule by others (as indeed don't the Scots it appears) except of course the minority who do very well out of it. It should speak volumes to you that: (a) the only region of England that voted to remain was Greater London, (b) the only regions of the UK to vote remain were Scotland and Northern Ireland who received the lion's share of EU regional aid in the UK, and (c) if you examine the individual regions, the localities that voted remain were those than are, let us say, are "comfortably off". like Harrogate in Yorkshire. Yes there is a divide between "haves", doing well out of EU membership, and "have nots". As I have repeatedly posted. UK politicians and civil service are flawed, but they are at least our people and the government can be removed at a general election. The UK had no influence on the decisions of the EU Parliament, no influence on the EU Commission, and no influence of the EU Council, as Cameron* found out to his cost when he pleaded to be given "something" to take back to the British people to convince them to stay in the EU. The UK escaped the EU just in time before the pandemic. I am not just referring to the vaccine procurement fiasco, but not getting tied into the massive south EU nation's debt (we have enough of our own!), the fiscal union being created by the EU (pandemic) Recovery Fund, and moves towards an EU army and loss of individual nation's veto on foreign policy. * Bassett, former Irish diplomat: Yes, I know we have had this debate before. What is happening though, is that some people are entering their views on here (which they are perfectly entitled to do). The issue that is coming out as this develops is that Brexiteers write time and time again about money and economics. As long as that happens, I am at ease in arguing that the EU debate never was just about money. 1) Who is talking about political union except for Brexit supporters? I think you will find that all members of the EU have their own elections to their own governments. Nice try though. And you were here earlier this week writing about lies on TV. And you spread a completely wrong quotation about a Founding Father of the European Union. 2) I think you will find that the Romans ruled over Europe rather longer ago than 200 years. 3) In all, I think around 37% (+/-) of eligible UK voters actually voted to leave the EU, no matter where they lived. 4) What exactly do you mean when you write that the UK had no influence on the decisions of the UK Parliament? What on earth were they elected for then? 5) If you are going to bring up the "vaccine procurement fiasco", you will also have to acknowledge that EU countries are now getting their act together, and more importantly that you regurgitated another untruth earlier this week. This was when you said that the UK would have worked inside the EU vaccine procurement programme if we had stayed inside the EU. There was no requirement to do this at all, so you have really made that up to suit your anti EU fervour. The UK after all, stayed in the EU for years, but we kept the £ and we stayed out of Schengen for example. 6) Could you possibly show us an example of "moves towards an EU army" which are founded on facts, ie thoughts and decisions of serving members of the EU? P.S. In an earlier response, you suggested that the wars of 1870-1945 were centred on the rivalry between France and Germany. Do not forget though the role of G.B. and the other major European powers in the years before 1914, or the fact that the FWW started in the Balkans. Nor that countries across the world became involved because European leaders could not keep peace on the continent. I'll take your first comment that all Brexiteers talk about is "money and economics" as a complement. Usually we are insulted by all sorts of other accusations. You are correct in a way that Brexiteers have turned to financial issues. This is probably because from the onset of Brexit the remain camp warned of financial disaster, recession, unemployment, house price fall, etc. almost all of which proved to be untrue, apart from the £ dropping in value after the referendum and a slow down in investment in 2019 when doubts were rife that there would not be a trade deal with the EU, or it would take years to achieve. I have always maintained the importance of Brexit is sovereignty and judicial independence, and expect economic benefits to be in the longer term. 1) The EU is committed to ever closer union, by treaties and stealth through ECOJ decisions. Maastricht meant EU regulations take precedence of individual countries laws and ECOJ decisions take precedence of national supreme courts. I revoked on the quotation you refer to. The next step is ever closer union will be fiscal union. Ireland will be told to increase its Corporation Tax by Brussels and the Recovery Fund will place onerous fiscal rules on member countries, mark my words well. The EU will make it financially impossible for another country to leave. 2) The point was 200 years was the longest ever period of of peace in Europe during the Roman Empire. Since then many people/countries have tried to control large sections of Europe such as Charlemagne, Napoleon, Hitler, and Stalin/USSR but all have failed, as, I believe will the EU. 3) Agreed. Remain got a lower %. 4) I didn't say UK parliament, I said no influence on European institutions. I mean that each individual countries' representation in the EU is so small and divided by proportional representation that they is no collective opinion or policy in the parliament, which is just a talking shop, or the Council where Germany and France dominate proceedings. For example, are all MEPs in favour of moving the parliament back and forth between Brussels and Strasbourg each month? Can they do anything about it? The EU Parliament is a joke. None of its members can introduce legislation which is the preserve of the EU Commission. Will they ever do anything about it? No, they are all on the expenses gravy train, and turkeys don't vote for Christmas. 5) Most EU individual countries governments have managed the pandemic better than the UK. The EU Commission input has been a disaster and lead to many deaths. Those EU countries are very annoyed with the EU Commission. 6) Ever closer union: find a common enemy: progress by stealth: www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/security/20190612STO54310/eu-army-myth-what-is-europe-really-doing-to-boost-defencewww.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/19/hard-power-europes-military-drift-causes-alarmwww.theguardian.com/business/2018/nov/21/europe-finally-pulls-the-trigger-on-a-military-force-eu-army-trumpwww.politico.eu/article/angela-merkel-emmanuel-macron-eu-army-to-complement-nato/www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-military-mission-mozambique-may-be-operating-months-bloc-says-2021-05-28/On your final post script, I don't believe you have to have political union to maintain peace. Economic interdependance is sufficient. Many aspects of the EU mutual cooperation between states like travel, student movement, research, residence, etc. which Remainers complain about losing, could be replicated by reciprocal agreements without having to have a legislature in Brussels. See link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_organisations_in_Europe
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Post by wagsastokie on Jun 18, 2021 5:17:30 GMT
Good idea there’s around one million workers who would add immensely to this country waiting to be freed from Chinese tyranny in Hong Kong Start getting them the British passports they deserve and get them over here You really think a million educated people from Hong Kong are are going to come here to work in abattoirs We could get a million people currently on benefits to do that. We thankfully have had hundreds of thousands of well educated Europeans doing menial jobs for years Are you saying those from Hong Kong are different Do you think we should allow those who wish to flee Chinese tyranny the chance or not
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 18, 2021 7:04:46 GMT
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 18, 2021 7:07:50 GMT
Pick any bit of analysis/research into "who voted what" you like....feel free to chuck it on here... Unlike you, I can't be arsed to trawl the internet to find out why people voted for somthing over five years ago. I don't even do it when I'm on losing side although I have to admit, that is very rare. Fair enough, we'll agree that the findings of that paper I referenced align with those of the overwhelming majority of all the other research done since 2016. Not sure why it was so worth arguing over...
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Post by franklin on Jun 18, 2021 7:10:58 GMT
You really think a million educated people from Hong Kong are are going to come here to work in abattoirs We could get a million people currently on benefits to do that. We thankfully have had hundreds of thousands of well educated Europeans doing menial jobs for years Are you saying those from Hong Kong are different Do you think we should allow those who wish to flee Chinese tyranny the chance or not That's true my university educated son was delivering fast food on a pedal cycle in Germany after losing his job through covid. He did eventually get another job but he did enjoy it for 6 months.
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Post by Kilo on Jun 18, 2021 7:53:58 GMT
Unlike you, I can't be arsed to trawl the internet to find out why people voted for somthing over five years ago. I don't even do it when I'm on losing side although I have to admit, that is very rare. Fair enough, we'll agree that the findings of that paper I referenced align with those of the overwhelming majority of all the other research done since 2016. Not sure why it was so worth arguing over... Fair enough, you carry on reading all your negative, anti UK stuff and enjoy pointing out all that's bad about us. I'm more of a happy glass full type of person who loves the UK (despite our faults) and am proud of our history including our explorers, inventors, engineers, scientists and sportsmen. If you're happy wading through lots of research papers on how you lost a vote over five years ago then knock yourself out, weird pastime though if you ask me.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 18, 2021 7:56:40 GMT
Unlike you, I can't be arsed to trawl the internet to find out why people voted for somthing over five years ago. I don't even do it when I'm on losing side although I have to admit, that is very rare. Fair enough, we'll agree that the findings of that paper I referenced align with those of the overwhelming majority of all the other research done since 2016. Not sure why it was so worth arguing over... It wasn't worth it, that's what kilo is saying
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 18, 2021 8:12:13 GMT
Fair enough, we'll agree that the findings of that paper I referenced align with those of the overwhelming majority of all the other research done since 2016. Not sure why it was so worth arguing over... Fair enough, you carry on reading all your negative, anti UK stuff and enjoy pointing out all that's bad about us. I'm more of a happy glass full type of person who loves the UK (despite our faults) and am proud of our history including our explorers, inventors, engineers, scientists and sportsmen. If you're happy wading through lots of research papers on how you lost a vote over five years ago then knock yourself out, weird pastime though if you ask me.
I don't think not wanting the UK to go down a regressive, backward looking path which ends up with it shrinking its own economy, damaging sectors like farming and fishing and the financial services industry, making the fracturing of the UK more likely and threatening the peace in NI is anti-UK. Quite the opposite I'd have said. Anything that lessens that damage is a good thing in my eyes, why would anyone want the opposite? Like I said, not sure why you bothered challenging it previously, when all the evidence aligns with the findings of that research I quoted. Was it more a case of you not liking it, rather than disputing it? Generally, I think it makes sense to try to understand why people do things, including the way they vote, I guess that's why politicians, businesses etc spend fortunes doing just that. But, no-one's forcing you to look into any of this if you don't want to, each to their own. And I'm sure you're right, it must be a lot easier to remain glass half full if you don't!
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Post by foster on Jun 18, 2021 9:17:09 GMT
You really think a million educated people from Hong Kong are are going to come here to work in abattoirs We could get a million people currently on benefits to do that. We thankfully have had hundreds of thousands of well educated Europeans doing menial jobs for years Are you saying those from Hong Kong are different Do you think we should allow those who wish to flee Chinese tyranny the chance or not What are you talking about you nobber. My post had nothing to do with allowing them to come here or not.
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Post by wagsastokie on Jun 18, 2021 9:35:48 GMT
We thankfully have had hundreds of thousands of well educated Europeans doing menial jobs for years Are you saying those from Hong Kong are different Do you think we should allow those who wish to flee Chinese tyranny the chance or not What are you talking about you nobber. My post had nothing to do with allowing them to come here or not. Dear me another remainer sadly having to start resorting to personal insults When there arguments prove to be thinner then a fag paper You were saying why would the well educated people from Hong Kong come here to do what to some seem menial jobs I merely pointed out that many well educated Europeans had done similar for years I think we should bring those who wish to come and work from Hong Kong to this country I merely wondered if you agree
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Post by Kilo on Jun 18, 2021 9:48:05 GMT
Fair enough, you carry on reading all your negative, anti UK stuff and enjoy pointing out all that's bad about us. I'm more of a happy glass full type of person who loves the UK (despite our faults) and am proud of our history including our explorers, inventors, engineers, scientists and sportsmen. If you're happy wading through lots of research papers on how you lost a vote over five years ago then knock yourself out, weird pastime though if you ask me.
I don't think not wanting the UK to go down a regressive, backward looking path which ends up with it shrinking its own economy, damaging sectors like farming and fishing and the financial services industry, making the fracturing of the UK more likely and threatening the peace in NI is anti-UK. Quite the opposite I'd have said. Anything that lessens that damage is a good thing in my eyes, why would anyone want the opposite? Like I said, not sure why you bothered challenging it previously, when all the evidence aligns with the findings of that research I quoted. Was it more a case of you not liking it, rather than disputing it? Generally, I think it makes sense to try to understand why people do things, including the way they vote, I guess that's why politicians, businesses etc spend fortunes doing just that. But, no-one's forcing you to look into any of this if you don't want to, each to their own. And I'm sure you're right, it must be a lot easier to remain glass half full if you don't! I can't dispute all the findings in all of these reports that you keep finding can I? as I've not read any of them (I did have a scroll through the link you added which was full of 0.03 % figures) but I can question their interpretation of the stats as there are lots of people who frequently manipulate stats to suit their agenda. It's your opinion that leaving the EU will cause untold damage to the UK and you're quite entitled to that opinion, I just happen to believe that our history as a nation of people is that we're quite good at stuff and that we'll still be quite good at doing stuff without being ruled from Brussells. What I do know is that your view of the old, poor, unheathy, stupid, unemployed being the one's who voted out bears no resemblance to the people I know so I'm prepared to question the stats and the motives of those that interpret those stats. I was questioning not challenging.
I see lots of results of polls on all sorts of subjects yet in my 56 years, I've never once been asked my opinion so I also wonder and question who exactly does get asked in these polls. The one place I did get asked was in 2016 and I won on that occasion.
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Post by foster on Jun 18, 2021 9:54:39 GMT
What are you talking about you nobber. My post had nothing to do with allowing them to come here or not. Dear me another remainer sadly having to start resorting to personal insults When there arguments prove to be thinner then a fag paper You were saying why would the well educated people from Hong Kong come here to do what to some seem menial jobs I merely pointed out that many well educated Europeans had done similar for years I think we should bring those who wish to come and work from Hong Kong to this country I merely wondered if you agree Of course i agree with that. What a stupid question.
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Post by Kilo on Jun 18, 2021 10:08:15 GMT
Dear me another remainer sadly having to start resorting to personal insults When there arguments prove to be thinner then a fag paper You were saying why would the well educated people from Hong Kong come here to do what to some seem menial jobs I merely pointed out that many well educated Europeans had done similar for years I think we should bring those who wish to come and work from Hong Kong to this country I merely wondered if you agree Of course i agree with that. What a stupid question. Of course, you could have told him you agree but you chose to call him a nobber. Why can't everyone just get on Please don't call me a nobber, I'll tell myselt to butt out of your argument.
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Post by foster on Jun 18, 2021 11:04:02 GMT
Of course i agree with that. What a stupid question. Of course, you could have told him you agree but you chose to call him a nobber. Why can't everyone just get on Please don't call me a nobber, I'll tell myselt to butt out of your argument. Didn't need to tell him I agree because he just made that insinuation up. At no point did I mention anything on immigrants being allowed here and it's obvious to anyone who reads my post...and he knows it. The lowest kind of poster who has nothing to add so they make up stuff to try and look righteous/clever.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 18, 2021 11:17:53 GMT
I don't think not wanting the UK to go down a regressive, backward looking path which ends up with it shrinking its own economy, damaging sectors like farming and fishing and the financial services industry, making the fracturing of the UK more likely and threatening the peace in NI is anti-UK. Quite the opposite I'd have said. Anything that lessens that damage is a good thing in my eyes, why would anyone want the opposite? Like I said, not sure why you bothered challenging it previously, when all the evidence aligns with the findings of that research I quoted. Was it more a case of you not liking it, rather than disputing it? Generally, I think it makes sense to try to understand why people do things, including the way they vote, I guess that's why politicians, businesses etc spend fortunes doing just that. But, no-one's forcing you to look into any of this if you don't want to, each to their own. And I'm sure you're right, it must be a lot easier to remain glass half full if you don't! I can't dispute all the findings in all of these reports that you keep finding can I? as I've not read any of them (I did have a scroll through the link you added which was full of 0.03 % figures) but I can question their interpretation of the stats as there are lots of people who frequently manipulate stats to suit their agenda. It's your opinion that leaving the EU will cause untold damage to the UK and you're quite entitled to that opinion, I just happen to believe that our history as a nation of people is that we're quite good at stuff and that we'll still be quite good at doing stuff without being ruled from Brussells. What I do know is that your view of the old, poor, unheathy, stupid, unemployed being the one's who voted out bears no resemblance to the people I know so I'm prepared to question the stats and the motives of those that interpret those stats. I was questioning not challenging.
I see lots of results of polls on all sorts of subjects yet in my 56 years, I've never once been asked my opinion so I also wonder and question who exactly does get asked in these polls. The one place I did get asked was in 2016 and I won on that occasion. I'm sure you're right in that no-one you've met who voted Leave in 2016 matches any of the criteria in the analysis that's been carried out. However, if various people from various backgrounds do scientifically valid analysis and find the same results for the majority of the time, I think it's fair to say those conclusions, overall, are fairly safe. They are put together as representative samples, that's the whole point. There's no manipulation of stats going on. I'm sure if there was analysis out there that showed the opposite kind of people voted Leave, that's what would be out there. Overwhelmingly, it isn't. I don't doubt the UK will manage without being part of the EU. Just that it will be a poorer place in so many ways for it. Anything that lessens the impact of leaving is a good thing for the future of the country.
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Post by Kilo on Jun 18, 2021 11:27:32 GMT
I can't dispute all the findings in all of these reports that you keep finding can I? as I've not read any of them (I did have a scroll through the link you added which was full of 0.03 % figures) but I can question their interpretation of the stats as there are lots of people who frequently manipulate stats to suit their agenda. It's your opinion that leaving the EU will cause untold damage to the UK and you're quite entitled to that opinion, I just happen to believe that our history as a nation of people is that we're quite good at stuff and that we'll still be quite good at doing stuff without being ruled from Brussells. What I do know is that your view of the old, poor, unheathy, stupid, unemployed being the one's who voted out bears no resemblance to the people I know so I'm prepared to question the stats and the motives of those that interpret those stats. I was questioning not challenging.
I see lots of results of polls on all sorts of subjects yet in my 56 years, I've never once been asked my opinion so I also wonder and question who exactly does get asked in these polls. The one place I did get asked was in 2016 and I won on that occasion. I'm sure you're right in that no-one you've met who voted Leave in 2016 matches any of the criteria in the analysis that's been carried out. However, if various people from various backgrounds do scientifically valid analysis and find the same results for the majority of the time, I think it's fair to say those conclusions, overall, are fairly safe. They are put together as representative samples, that's the whole point. There's no manipulation of stats going on. I'm sure if there was analysis out there that showed the opposite kind of people voted Leave, that's what would be out there. Overwhelmingly, it isn't. I don't doubt the UK will manage without being part of the EU. Just that it will be a poorer place in so many ways for it. (In my opinion) Anything that lessens the impact of leaving is a good thing for the future of the country. If only some people didn't state their opinions as facts on here, there'd be far less arguing. Although this thread might only have been a couple of pages long and a lot less entertaining.
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Post by wagsastokie on Jun 18, 2021 12:25:15 GMT
Of course, you could have told him you agree but you chose to call him a nobber. Why can't everyone just get on Please don't call me a nobber, I'll tell myselt to butt out of your argument. Didn't need to tell him I agree because he just made that insinuation up. At no point did I mention anything on immigrants being allowed here and it's obvious to anyone who reads my post...and he knows it. The lowest kind of poster who has nothing to add so they make up stuff to try and look righteous/clever. 😁🥱 There’s only one of us looking sanctimonious and it isn’t me What have I made up I’m waiting for the list
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Post by foster on Jun 18, 2021 13:11:27 GMT
Didn't need to tell him I agree because he just made that insinuation up. At no point did I mention anything on immigrants being allowed here and it's obvious to anyone who reads my post...and he knows it. The lowest kind of poster who has nothing to add so they make up stuff to try and look righteous/clever. 😁🥱 There’s only one of us looking sanctimonious and it isn’t me What have I made up I’m waiting for the list You made up some bullshit insinuation about me and immigration. Pathetic.
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Post by wagsastokie on Jun 18, 2021 13:45:45 GMT
😁🥱 There’s only one of us looking sanctimonious and it isn’t me What have I made up I’m waiting for the list You made up some bullshit insinuation about me and immigration. Pathetic. I made nothing of the sort I insinuated nothing at all you mentioned a shortage of people to work in food sector I pointed out that there were roughly a million of people from hong Kong who could make up the short fall You in your belittling manner said why would well educated people form Hong Kong want to work in slaughter houses I merely pointed out that millions of well educated Europeans had done similar jobs I then simply asked if you agreed that we should allow Hong Kong citizens in as we had promised You than proceeded to climb upon a high horse quivering like a bitch on heat imagining some slight
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Post by foster on Jun 18, 2021 13:55:23 GMT
You made up some bullshit insinuation about me and immigration. Pathetic. I made nothing of the sort I insinuated nothing at all you mentioned a shortage of people to work in food sector I pointed out that there were roughly a million of people from hong Kong who could make up the short fall You in your belittling manner said why would well educated people form Hong Kong want to work in slaughter houses I merely pointed out that millions of well educated Europeans had done similar jobs I then simply asked if you agreed that we should allow Hong Kong citizens in as we had promised You than proceeded to climb upon a high horse quivering like a bitch on heat imagining some slight Don't get your panties in a twist. It's only a forum.
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Post by wagsastokie on Jun 18, 2021 13:58:03 GMT
I made nothing of the sort I insinuated nothing at all you mentioned a shortage of people to work in food sector I pointed out that there were roughly a million of people from hong Kong who could make up the short fall You in your belittling manner said why would well educated people form Hong Kong want to work in slaughter houses I merely pointed out that millions of well educated Europeans had done similar jobs I then simply asked if you agreed that we should allow Hong Kong citizens in as we had promised You than proceeded to climb upon a high horse quivering like a bitch on heat imagining some slight Don't get your panties in a twist. It's only a forum. Well at least we agree on that
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Post by 4372 on Jun 18, 2021 21:05:14 GMT
I'll take your first comment that all Brexiteers talk about is "money and economics" as a complement. Usually we are insulted by all sorts of other accusations. You are correct in a way that Brexiteers have turned to financial issues. This is probably because from the onset of Brexit the remain camp warned of financial disaster, recession, unemployment, house price fall, etc. almost all of which proved to be untrue, apart from the £ dropping in value after the referendum and a slow down in investment in 2019 when doubts were rife that there would not be a trade deal with the EU, or it would take years to achieve. I have always maintained the importance of Brexit is sovereignty and judicial independence, and expect economic benefits to be in the longer term. (You can take it as a “complement” (sic) but you would be reading me incorrectly. The point I was making was that ££££ is what brexit supporters and the government seems to be coming up with so far. I get access to the Telegraph on a daily basis, and all I read about is trade deals and the markets. I have seen no evidence of policies aimed at improving (eg) the rights of the child, or the disabled, to take them beyond EU standards. Makes you wonder if there ever was a plan to improve living conditions at all, or indeed any sort of plan for life after Brexit. Not being economically literate, I never made claims about the future of the economy. I wonder if house prices have not fallen because of the stamp duty initiative. In any case, is it not true that the effects of the Pandemic has clouded the effect of Brexit? And there definitely are issues still to play out. Trade with the EU in some sectors is down, according to HMRC figures, and there are significant issues about Northern Ireland, which Leave politicians said would be solved by technology or even magic. Are you suggesting that France is a member of the Security Council of the UN, but is not a sovereign nation?) 1) The EU is committed to ever closer union, by treaties and stealth through ECOJ decisions. Maastricht meant EU regulations take precedence of individual countries laws and ECOJ decisions take precedence of national supreme courts. I revoked on the quotation you refer to. The next step is ever closer union will be fiscal union. Ireland will be told to increase its Corporation Tax by Brussels and the Recovery Fund will place onerous fiscal rules on member countries, mark my words well. The EU will make it financially impossible for another country to leave. (This last sentence is opinion/assertion. It is not a fact.) (No, the EU is not committed to ever closer union. It can only move in directions agreed by member states. The governments of those states are democratically elected. It is an argument I have seen before. Medieval monarchs laid out similar ideas about the divine right of Kings, but they did not achieve absolute power and authority. There is a huge gulf between written theories and political reality. “Politics is the art of the possible” As you assert /claim yourself, “ ……. many people/countries have tried to control large sections of Europe . . . all have failed, as, I believe will the EU”. (I always laugh at the idea that some put forward on here that one the one hand the EU wants to achieve complete political control over Europe, and on the other assert that it will never happen. Both assertions cannot be right simultaneously.) 2) The point was 200 years was the longest ever period of of peace in Europe during the Roman Empire. Since then many people/countries have tried to control large sections of Europe such as Charlemagne, Napoleon, Hitler, and Stalin/USSR but all have failed, as, I believe will the EU. 3) Agreed. Remain got a lower %. ( You were arguing about how different parts of the country voted. It doesn’t matter though, does it? Everyone had the right to a vote, and only 37% voted to leave the EU. On the basis of 37%, the right to travel, study work and live in EU states has been taken away from future generations. That is a massive retrograde step, regardless of your final paragraph, where you argue that such cooperation could be reinstated. People voted to reduce the freedom of movement of future generations.) 4) I didn't say UK parliament, I said no influence on European institutions. I mean that each individual countries' representation in the EU is so small and divided by proportional representation that they is no collective opinion or policy in the parliament, which is just a talking shop, or the Council where Germany and France dominate proceedings. For example, are all MEPs in favour of moving the parliament back and forth between Brussels and Strasbourg each month? Can they do anything about it? The EU Parliament is a joke. None of its members can introduce legislation which is the preserve of the EU Commission. Will they ever do anything about it? No, they are all on the expenses gravy train, and turkeys don't vote for Christmas. (You are wilfully misunderstanding how the EU parliament works. In the meantime, I don’t think the British system, with the continued existence of an unelected second chamber, a hereditary monarchy and an unwritten constitution, has anything to teach the EU institutions. Far better to have tackled those issues, and I think likely with less division in the UK.) 5) Most EU individual countries governments have managed the pandemic better than the UK. The EU Commission input has been a disaster and lead to many deaths. Those EU countries are very annoyed with the EU Commission. 6) Ever closer union: find a common enemy: progress by stealth: www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/security/20190612STO54310/eu-army-myth-what-is-europe-really-doing-to-boost-defencewww.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/19/hard-power-europes-military-drift-causes-alarmwww.theguardian.com/business/2018/nov/21/europe-finally-pulls-the-trigger-on-a-military-force-eu-army-trumpwww.politico.eu/article/angela-merkel-emmanuel-macron-eu-army-to-complement-nato/www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-military-mission-mozambique-may-be-operating-months-bloc-says-2021-05-28/(I have had a brief look at some of these. The view seems to be that there is little prospect of an eu standing army along the lines of nineteenth century Prussia. Instead, the possibility of “pop-up” armies to co-operate where appropriate. I think a sort of “jelly baby” army, rather than an iron fist.) On your final post script, I don't believe you have to have political union to maintain peace. Economic interdependance is sufficient. Many aspects of the EU mutual cooperation between states like travel, student movement, research, residence, etc. which Remainers complain about losing, could be replicated by reciprocal agreements without having to have a legislature in Brussels. See link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_organisations_in_Europe
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Jun 19, 2021 7:37:26 GMT
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 19, 2021 7:52:36 GMT
You're getting the hang of it. Come back with the stats in 12 months time. A Yorkshire cheese producer has seen his sales to the EU decimated because of the barriers the EU put up to food imports (red tape) and started to look elsewhere. He has been inundated with enquiries from North America.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 19, 2021 9:15:24 GMT
You're getting the hang of it. Come back with the stats in 12 months time. A Yorkshire cheese producer has seen his sales to the EU decimated because of the barriers the EU put up to food imports (red tape) and started to look elsewhere. He has been inundated with enquiries from North America. "Inundated with enquiries" as opposed to yer actual sales to the continent Not quite so rosy in Cheshire, apparently... www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/23/cheshire-cheesemaker-says-business-left-with-250000-brexit-holeYou're getting it too, hopefully.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 19, 2021 11:49:04 GMT
"Supermarket bosses are calling for trucking rules to be relaxed urgently, after Tesco warned that a shortage of lorry drivers is forcing it to throw away almost 50 tons of food a week. Senior industry figures and representatives from the Road Haulage Association (RHA) met with ministers this week to warn that supply chains are in "growing peril" due to the crisis, which was partly brought on by a drop in migrant labour due to lockdown rules and Brexit". www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/06/18/tesco-sounds-alarm-driver-shortages/Another example of de-regulation and loosening of standards being required to deal with the realities of Brexit?
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