|
Post by mrcoke on Jun 17, 2021 12:12:18 GMT
You are correct, we have become a divided country because most English and Welsh do not want to be subjected to rule by others (as indeed don't the Scots it appears) except of course the minority who do very well out of it. It should speak volumes to you that: (a) the only region of England that voted to remain was Greater London, (b) the only regions of the UK to vote remain were Scotland and Northern Ireland who received the lion's share of EU regional aid in the UK, and (c) if you examine the individual regions, the localities that voted remain were those than are, let us say, are "comfortably off". like Harrogate in Yorkshire. Yes there is a divide between "haves", doing well out of EU membership, and "have nots". I think it's a bit wider than that! There's been plenty of analysis on who voted what. You could equally say that most Leave voters were associated with older age, white ethnicity, low educational attainment, infrequent use of smartphones and the internet, receiving benefits, adverse health and low life satisfaction. Reference here, just one of many that found the same thing: www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0176268018301320But, you're right, this has been done to death repeatedly, and nearly always provokes someone to react with the usual "we're all thicko racists are we", so let's not go there again!, but let's also not airbrush out some of the other just as pertinent reasons for the current divisions in the country. Your post reminded me of an article in the Daily Telegraph supplement many many years ago. The author advocated that one person one vote was wrong and advocated that people should be given multiple votes to distribute as they deemed fit. The number of votes allocated to them would depend on their intelligence among other things, so brainy, qualified, high tax paying voters got 10 votes to allocate, whilest others were graded down 1 vote. So referencing your first paragraph above, how would you describe the people in charge of the country, the cabinet? Maybe younger age (certainly none from the largest group in the country - the retired), mixed ethnicity, high educational attainment, always on their smart phones and Internet, paying taxes, healthy (I was impressed by Bojo's dip in the sea last week!), and full of themselves. So they must be making all the right decisions, aren't they? Personally I think everyone's opinion carries equal weight, certainly when it comes to voting. Millions have died fighting for sovereignty/independance, we voted for it, others want to give it away.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 17, 2021 12:45:25 GMT
You are correct, we have become a divided country because most English and Welsh do not want to be subjected to rule by others (as indeed don't the Scots it appears) except of course the minority who do very well out of it. It should speak volumes to you that: (a) the only region of England that voted to remain was Greater London, (b) the only regions of the UK to vote remain were Scotland and Northern Ireland who received the lion's share of EU regional aid in the UK, and (c) if you examine the individual regions, the localities that voted remain were those than are, let us say, are "comfortably off". like Harrogate in Yorkshire. Yes there is a divide between "haves", doing well out of EU membership, and "have nots". I think it's a bit wider than that! There's been plenty of analysis on who voted what. You could equally say that most Leave voters were associated with older age, white ethnicity, low educational attainment, infrequent use of smartphones and the internet, receiving benefits, adverse health and low life satisfaction. Reference here, just one of many that found the same thing: www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0176268018301320But, you're right, this has been done to death repeatedly, and nearly always provokes someone to react with the usual "we're all thicko racists are we", so let's not go there again!, but let's also not airbrush out some of the other just as pertinent reasons for the current divisions in the country. Fos has told you a couple of times" Let it go". Perhaps you are locked in this " division" in your head, for the rest of your life? Mind you, surely with disgruntled Fisherpeople, Farmers, environmentalists, meat eaters, vegetarians ( and vegans), industrialists, bankers, the answer to the NI problem, and the Scottish, lied to Leavers , enthusiastic evangelical Remainers and the rest ......the next election is an absolute cert for a left/ socialist party with the number one policy...Rejoining the EU....this time , not half in , half out....we've learnt our lesson and must come to heel, the full monty, the Euro, no borders....the United States of Europe, here we come.
|
|
|
Post by foster on Jun 17, 2021 13:05:33 GMT
I think it's a bit wider than that! There's been plenty of analysis on who voted what. You could equally say that most Leave voters were associated with older age, white ethnicity, low educational attainment, infrequent use of smartphones and the internet, receiving benefits, adverse health and low life satisfaction. Reference here, just one of many that found the same thing: www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0176268018301320But, you're right, this has been done to death repeatedly, and nearly always provokes someone to react with the usual "we're all thicko racists are we", so let's not go there again!, but let's also not airbrush out some of the other just as pertinent reasons for the current divisions in the country. Your post reminded me of an article in the Daily Telegraph supplement many many years ago. The author advocated that one person one vote was wrong and advocated that people should be given multiple votes to distribute as they deemed fit. The number of votes allocated to them would depend on their intelligence among other things, so brainy, qualified, high tax paying voters got 10 votes to allocate, whilest others were graded down 1 vote. So referencing your first paragraph above, how would you describe the people in charge of the country, the cabinet? Maybe younger age (certainly none from the largest group in the country - the retired), mixed ethnicity, high educational attainment, always on their smart phones and Internet, paying taxes, healthy (I was impressed by Bojo's dip in the sea last week!), and full of themselves. So they must be making all the right decisions, aren't they? Personally I think everyone's opinion carries equal weight, certainly when it comes to voting. Millions have died fighting for sovereignty/independance, we voted for it, others want to give it away. Not related to Brexit but imo criminals, non-British nationals, and people who have never paid taxes or have been on benefits for 5 years (unless retired or physically incapable to work) shouldn't get a vote. For the rest, 1 vote each.
|
|
|
Post by foster on Jun 17, 2021 13:07:19 GMT
I think it's a bit wider than that! There's been plenty of analysis on who voted what. You could equally say that most Leave voters were associated with older age, white ethnicity, low educational attainment, infrequent use of smartphones and the internet, receiving benefits, adverse health and low life satisfaction. Reference here, just one of many that found the same thing: www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0176268018301320But, you're right, this has been done to death repeatedly, and nearly always provokes someone to react with the usual "we're all thicko racists are we", so let's not go there again!, but let's also not airbrush out some of the other just as pertinent reasons for the current divisions in the country. Fos has told you a couple of times" Let it go". Perhaps you are locked in this " division" in your head, for the rest of your life? Mind you, surely with disgruntled Fisherpeople, Farmers, environmentalists, meat eaters, vegetarians ( and vegans), industrialists, bankers, the answer to the NI problem, and the Scottish, lied to Leavers , enthusiastic evangelical Remainers and the rest ......the next election is an absolute cert for a left/ socialist party with the number one policy...Rejoining the EU....this time , not half in , half out....we've learnt our lesson and must come to heel, the full monty, the Euro, no borders....the United States of Europe, here we come. I prefer you not to reference me unless it's to say that you wholeheartedly agree with everything I post. My 'Let it go' also applies to Brexiteers on here who seem incapable of moving on from EU bashing.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 17, 2021 13:12:20 GMT
Fos has told you a couple of times" Let it go". Perhaps you are locked in this " division" in your head, for the rest of your life? Mind you, surely with disgruntled Fisherpeople, Farmers, environmentalists, meat eaters, vegetarians ( and vegans), industrialists, bankers, the answer to the NI problem, and the Scottish, lied to Leavers , enthusiastic evangelical Remainers and the rest ......the next election is an absolute cert for a left/ socialist party with the number one policy...Rejoining the EU....this time , not half in , half out....we've learnt our lesson and must come to heel, the full monty, the Euro, no borders....the United States of Europe, here we come. I prefer you not to reference me unless it's to say that you wholeheartedly agree with everything I post. My 'Let it go' also applies to Brexiteers on here who seem incapable of moving on from EU bashing. I referenced you as a very significant contributor on the thread on this particular issue, with whom I agree 100%....Let it go....it's good to have some harmony. I knew that you were referring to both EU fanatics and Brexiteers being a neutral, like myself.
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 17, 2021 14:16:22 GMT
I prefer you not to reference me unless it's to say that you wholeheartedly agree with everything I post. My 'Let it go' also applies to Brexiteers on here who seem incapable of moving on from EU bashing. I referenced you as a very significant contributor on the thread on this particular issue, with whom I agree 100%....Let it go....it's good to have some harmony. I knew that you were referring to both EU fanatics and Brexiteers being a neutral, like myself. a neutral! Anyway, aside from the nonsense...Foster, your list of eligible voters is interesting...non-British nationals, what about those who've lived here for years and paid tax for years? No taxation without representation was a phrase the Americans went to war for independence over. No-one's suggesting that, before the usual lot get carried away again, but I think if you've lived here for over five years and paid taxes all that time, you should get a vote in general elections which, after all, decide where your taxes get spent. Similarly, if you've been a non-dom dodging taxes for five years you lose that right to vote. Be patriotic, pay your taxes, make a contribution, or bugger off if you want to, but don't get a say in how the country is run...seems fair enough. I think crims are currently prevented from voting. Not sure. The benefits one might concentrate a few minds but you do wonder how many of the actual scroungers would actually care. The creation of a disenfranchised underclass is also a bit worrying, although it'd reduce the effectiveness of the dog whistle stuff a little, I'd bet
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 17, 2021 14:17:05 GMT
I think it's a bit wider than that! There's been plenty of analysis on who voted what. You could equally say that most Leave voters were associated with older age, white ethnicity, low educational attainment, infrequent use of smartphones and the internet, receiving benefits, adverse health and low life satisfaction. Reference here, just one of many that found the same thing: www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0176268018301320But, you're right, this has been done to death repeatedly, and nearly always provokes someone to react with the usual "we're all thicko racists are we", so let's not go there again!, but let's also not airbrush out some of the other just as pertinent reasons for the current divisions in the country. Really? You're referencing a paper written by an Italian and three Germans where at least one has worked for the EEC to prove how it's the old, stupid, unwell, unemployed who voted for Brexit? Everybody I know (excluding anybody who posts on here) voted for Brexit and not one of them falls into the stereotypes you've listed apart from my mum & dad (who are old but none of the other categories) and they both voted to join the economic community in 1973. I'm 56 years old and 2016 was my first ever time I was allowed to vote on our membership of the union.
Pick any bit of analysis/research into "who voted what" you like....feel free to chuck it on here...
|
|
|
Post by mrcoke on Jun 17, 2021 14:17:23 GMT
Fos has told you a couple of times" Let it go". Perhaps you are locked in this " division" in your head, for the rest of your life? Mind you, surely with disgruntled Fisherpeople, Farmers, environmentalists, meat eaters, vegetarians ( and vegans), industrialists, bankers, the answer to the NI problem, and the Scottish, lied to Leavers , enthusiastic evangelical Remainers and the rest ......the next election is an absolute cert for a left/ socialist party with the number one policy...Rejoining the EU....this time , not half in , half out....we've learnt our lesson and must come to heel, the full monty, the Euro, no borders....the United States of Europe, here we come. I prefer you not to reference me unless it's to say that you wholeheartedly agree with everything I post. My 'Let it go' also applies to Brexiteers on here who seem incapable of moving on from EU bashing. Apologies foster but here I go again: This absolutely beggars belief: www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/17/wind-turbines-clash-adds-to-uk-eu-post-brexit-tensionsHaving worked for a French multinational for 7 years, one thing you never did, unless it was absolutely unavoidable, was to buy anything that wasn't French. There was no written rule, but to do so was a very bad career move!
|
|
|
Post by foster on Jun 17, 2021 14:37:05 GMT
I prefer you not to reference me unless it's to say that you wholeheartedly agree with everything I post. My 'Let it go' also applies to Brexiteers on here who seem incapable of moving on from EU bashing. Apologies foster but here I go again: This absolutely beggars belief: www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/17/wind-turbines-clash-adds-to-uk-eu-post-brexit-tensionsHaving worked for a French multinational for 7 years, one thing you never did, unless it was absolutely unavoidable, was to buy anything that wasn't French. There was no written rule, but to do so was a very bad career move! So what you're saying is that you had a Peugeot 106? As for waters, If they're British then as far as I'm concerned we dictate who fishes there. Whether in or out of the EU. Just as I expect every EU member to dictate who has rights to earn revenue on their turf.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 17, 2021 14:56:57 GMT
I referenced you as a very significant contributor on the thread on this particular issue, with whom I agree 100%....Let it go....it's good to have some harmony. I knew that you were referring to both EU fanatics and Brexiteers being a neutral, like myself. a neutral! Anyway, aside from the nonsense...Foster, your list of eligible voters is interesting...non-British nationals, what about those who've lived here for years and paid tax for years? No taxation without representation was a phrase the Americans went to war for independence over. No-one's suggesting that, before the usual lot get carried away again, but I think if you've lived here for over five years and paid taxes all that time, you should get a vote in general elections which, after all, decide where your taxes get spent. Similarly, if you've been a non-dom dodging taxes for five years you lose that right to vote. Be patriotic, pay your taxes, make a contribution, or bugger off if you want to, but don't get a say in how the country is run...seems fair enough. I think crims are currently prevented from voting. Not sure. The benefits one might concentrate a few minds but you do wonder how many of the actual scroungers would actually care. The creation of a disenfranchised underclass is also a bit worrying, although it'd reduce the effectiveness of the dog whistle stuff a little, I'd bet We've had the vote, let it go.
|
|
|
Post by franklin on Jun 17, 2021 15:05:58 GMT
a neutral! Anyway, aside from the nonsense...Foster, your list of eligible voters is interesting...non-British nationals, what about those who've lived here for years and paid tax for years? No taxation without representation was a phrase the Americans went to war for independence over. No-one's suggesting that, before the usual lot get carried away again, but I think if you've lived here for over five years and paid taxes all that time, you should get a vote in general elections which, after all, decide where your taxes get spent. Similarly, if you've been a non-dom dodging taxes for five years you lose that right to vote. Be patriotic, pay your taxes, make a contribution, or bugger off if you want to, but don't get a say in how the country is run...seems fair enough. I think crims are currently prevented from voting. Not sure. The benefits one might concentrate a few minds but you do wonder how many of the actual scroungers would actually care. The creation of a disenfranchised underclass is also a bit worrying, although it'd reduce the effectiveness of the dog whistle stuff a little, I'd bet We've had the vote, let it go. What was the result I've forgotten 🙂
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Jun 17, 2021 15:10:58 GMT
We've had the vote, let it go. What was the result I've forgotten 🙂 Remain was ground into the dirt
|
|
|
Post by foster on Jun 17, 2021 15:33:09 GMT
We've had the vote, let it go. What was the result I've forgotten 🙂 Neanderthals United 1 - 0 Homosapians FC, I think.
|
|
|
Post by foster on Jun 17, 2021 15:42:53 GMT
I referenced you as a very significant contributor on the thread on this particular issue, with whom I agree 100%....Let it go....it's good to have some harmony. I knew that you were referring to both EU fanatics and Brexiteers being a neutral, like myself. a neutral! Anyway, aside from the nonsense...Foster, your list of eligible voters is interesting...non-British nationals, what about those who've lived here for years and paid tax for years? No taxation without representation was a phrase the Americans went to war for independence over. No-one's suggesting that, before the usual lot get carried away again, but I think if you've lived here for over five years and paid taxes all that time, you should get a vote in general elections which, after all, decide where your taxes get spent. Similarly, if you've been a non-dom dodging taxes for five years you lose that right to vote. Be patriotic, pay your taxes, make a contribution, or bugger off if you want to, but don't get a say in how the country is run...seems fair enough. I think crims are currently prevented from voting. Not sure. The benefits one might concentrate a few minds but you do wonder how many of the actual scroungers would actually care. The creation of a disenfranchised underclass is also a bit worrying, although it'd reduce the effectiveness of the dog whistle stuff a little, I'd bet To be fair, he also listed me a 'very significant contributor' to this thread, which considering I mainly deal in banter is quite pleasing.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 17, 2021 16:02:27 GMT
We've had the vote, let it go. What was the result I've forgotten 🙂 It was close. It went to penalties. We won 13-12.....but alot of arguments afterwards disputing the result. Some people still can't believe and accept it. Should have had VR
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 17, 2021 16:06:28 GMT
a neutral! Anyway, aside from the nonsense...Foster, your list of eligible voters is interesting...non-British nationals, what about those who've lived here for years and paid tax for years? No taxation without representation was a phrase the Americans went to war for independence over. No-one's suggesting that, before the usual lot get carried away again, but I think if you've lived here for over five years and paid taxes all that time, you should get a vote in general elections which, after all, decide where your taxes get spent. Similarly, if you've been a non-dom dodging taxes for five years you lose that right to vote. Be patriotic, pay your taxes, make a contribution, or bugger off if you want to, but don't get a say in how the country is run...seems fair enough. I think crims are currently prevented from voting. Not sure. The benefits one might concentrate a few minds but you do wonder how many of the actual scroungers would actually care. The creation of a disenfranchised underclass is also a bit worrying, although it'd reduce the effectiveness of the dog whistle stuff a little, I'd bet To be fair, he also listed me a 'very significant contributor' to this thread, which considering I mainly deal in banter is quite pleasing. True. It was a bit bumlicky though, wasn't it and must be what being endorsed by GBNews feels like...
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 17, 2021 16:08:45 GMT
To be fair, he also listed me a 'very significant contributor' to this thread, which considering I mainly deal in banter is quite pleasing. True. It was a bit bumlicky though, wasn't it and must be what being endorsed by GBNews feels like... Dale Carnegie
|
|
|
Post by Kilo on Jun 17, 2021 16:19:11 GMT
Really? You're referencing a paper written by an Italian and three Germans where at least one has worked for the EEC to prove how it's the old, stupid, unwell, unemployed who voted for Brexit? Everybody I know (excluding anybody who posts on here) voted for Brexit and not one of them falls into the stereotypes you've listed apart from my mum & dad (who are old but none of the other categories) and they both voted to join the economic community in 1973. I'm 56 years old and 2016 was my first ever time I was allowed to vote on our membership of the union.
Pick any bit of analysis/research into "who voted what" you like....feel free to chuck it on here... Unlike you, I can't be arsed to trawl the internet to find out why people voted for somthing over five years ago. I don't even do it when I'm on losing side although I have to admit, that is very rare.
|
|
|
Post by foster on Jun 17, 2021 16:19:24 GMT
To be fair, he also listed me a 'very significant contributor' to this thread, which considering I mainly deal in banter is quite pleasing. True. It was a bit bumlicky though, wasn't it and must be what being endorsed by GBNews feels like... BJR doesn't bumlick me (much). We just avoid arguing with each other as it's not worth it. Same with Franklin. We have differing views on Brexit (he's wrong of course), but aside from that we're pretty aligned on everything else.
|
|
|
Post by foster on Jun 17, 2021 16:20:26 GMT
True. It was a bit bumlicky though, wasn't it and must be what being endorsed by GBNews feels like... Dale Carnegie Could be true actually. But I won't be so easily influenced.
|
|
|
Post by 4372 on Jun 17, 2021 16:27:56 GMT
People on here once again suggesting Brexit is about ££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££. Guess what, Brexit was not about money for many people. It was a national disgrace,the way it played out. Being in the European Union meant belonging to an institution in which peace and prosperity was the goal for all nations included.The European Union offers a vision of a continent united in peace, not riven by strife. Seventy five years (1870-1945) where 3 wars divided Europe. Followed by seventy plus years of peace. Which era has been the best to live in I wonder? Hard Question: Countries at war v Countries at peace. European people at war with each other v Families of different countries living in harmony with each other. Rise of Nationalism v Cooperation and mutual progress. We have ended up with a fiercely divided country, and next to no opportunity for the next generation to live,work,and study inside the European Union as things stand. That last point is a charge I lay against every single Brexit voter, who must have known that their vote would likely diminish the life opportunities of their own children and grandchildren, an opportunity that they had themselves once. We have had this debate before. I believe you do not have to have political union to ensure peace, economic interdependence will provide peace. The longest period of peace in Europe was under the rule of the Roman Empire, circa 200 years. Are you proposing a EU empire? It would appear so. Most nations in Europe do not want to conquer one another, they want independence. I could go into which nations in Europe are the aggressors, but that might be viewed as racist or xenophobic. Suffice to say, most of the issues in 1870 - 1945 were between two nations. The link attached herald's the virtual 100 years of relative peace after Napoleon was defeated. fee.org/articles/has-the-european-union-maintained-peace-in-europe/Do you propose a South American Union, in place of Mercosur, just in case Venezuela gets out of hand? I believe nationalism should be suppressed by education, economic interdependence, and a spirit of cooperation, not by suppression of individual countries democracy by politicians and bureaucrats who see their role to enforce people like the Basques to be subjected to a greater authority by those who know what is best for them. I do not see Nationalism and Cooperation as mutually exclusive. You are correct, we have become a divided country because most English and Welsh do not want to be subjected to rule by others (as indeed don't the Scots it appears) except of course the minority who do very well out of it. It should speak volumes to you that: (a) the only region of England that voted to remain was Greater London, (b) the only regions of the UK to vote remain were Scotland and Northern Ireland who received the lion's share of EU regional aid in the UK, and (c) if you examine the individual regions, the localities that voted remain were those than are, let us say, are "comfortably off". like Harrogate in Yorkshire. Yes there is a divide between "haves", doing well out of EU membership, and "have nots". As I have repeatedly posted. UK politicians and civil service are flawed, but they are at least our people and the government can be removed at a general election. The UK had no influence on the decisions of the EU Parliament, no influence on the EU Commission, and no influence of the EU Council, as Cameron* found out to his cost when he pleaded to be given "something" to take back to the British people to convince them to stay in the EU. The UK escaped the EU just in time before the pandemic. I am not just referring to the vaccine procurement fiasco, but not getting tied into the massive south EU nation's debt (we have enough of our own!), the fiscal union being created by the EU (pandemic) Recovery Fund, and moves towards an EU army and loss of individual nation's veto on foreign policy. * Bassett, former Irish diplomat: Yes, I know we have had this debate before. What is happening though, is that some people are entering their views on here (which they are perfectly entitled to do). The issue that is coming out as this develops is that Brexiteers write time and time again about money and economics. As long as that happens, I am at ease in arguing that the EU debate never was just about money. 1) Who is talking about political union except for Brexit supporters? I think you will find that all members of the EU have their own elections to their own governments. Nice try though. And you were here earlier this week writing about lies on TV. And you spread a completely wrong quotation about a Founding Father of the European Union. 2) I think you will find that the Romans ruled over Europe rather longer ago than 200 years. 3) In all, I think around 37% (+/-) of eligible UK voters actually voted to leave the EU, no matter where they lived. 4) What exactly do you mean when you write that the UK had no influence on the decisions of the UK Parliament? What on earth were they elected for then? 5) If you are going to bring up the "vaccine procurement fiasco", you will also have to acknowledge that EU countries are now getting their act together, and more importantly that you regurgitated another untruth earlier this week. This was when you said that the UK would have worked inside the EU vaccine procurement programme if we had stayed inside the EU. There was no requirement to do this at all, so you have really made that up to suit your anti EU fervour. The UK after all, stayed in the EU for years, but we kept the £ and we stayed out of Schengen for example. 6) Could you possibly show us an example of "moves towards an EU army" which are founded on facts, ie thoughts and decisions of serving members of the EU? P.S. In an earlier response, you suggested that the wars of 1870-1945 were centred on the rivalry between France and Germany. Do not forget though the role of G.B. and the other major European powers in the years before 1914, or the fact that the FWW started in the Balkans. Nor that countries across the world became involved because European leaders could not keep peace on the continent.
|
|
|
Post by foghornsgleghorn on Jun 17, 2021 16:46:31 GMT
Further to the last post, this is an old Independent article written some years ago about the potential benefits of leaving the CAP. I thought I would post it in full. The link: www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/how-could-farming-change-post-brexit-world-a8257876.htmlThe article: Farming – whether you’re rearing sheep or sowing swedes – isn’t easy in the best of times. Price volatility, weather fluctuations, foreign imports and government regulation can make the odds of success look less likely than a lottery win. Toss in Brexit, and even the most stalwart farmer is feeling skittish. The only consensus is that change is on the way. But what change? And do farmers – and we as consumers – have the stomach for it? The future of food and farming in a post Brexit world isn’t straightforward. It involves labour and immigration – who is going to pick the fruit and work in the fields? It means trade deals – who will buy our food and what food will we import and at what cost? It’s also about our overall agricultural policies and regulations once we’re no longer governed by Brussels and the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP). Michael Gove, Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, has announced proposed changes to the farming system. Under those plans, the current policy of providing direct payments based on the amount of land owned would be scraped in favour of what is called “public money for public goods” with a greater emphasis on environmental protection and stewardship. Getting it right is critical because farming plays an important role in the economy. British farming puts 60 per cent of the food we eat on our plates and uses 70 per cent of our land. It also supplies the British food and drink industry, which is the largest manufacturing sector in the country, worth over £100bn and employing 3.8 million people, according to a National Farmers’ Union report. "The largest private landowner in the UK is the National Trust and 80 per cent of their land is used for agriculture", says Patrick Begg, outdoors and natural resources director. Farmers are right to be concerned about a future that is far from clear. “ Farming is a long-term business, and that sense of not knowing where the long-term is heading is very destabilising to farmers.” But he’s optimistic that the new approach will benefit farmers and consumers. “ So we’re not saying at all, food production doesn’t remain at the heart of farming. It must and it will, but it can be shifted to provide more of those wider environmental benefits… it will put the health back into our soils, which is very fragile and vulnerable at the moment because of decades of asking our farmers to farm quite intensively.” The National Trust is a member of Greener UK, a coalition of organisations who want to have a say in how farming – and the environment as a whole – is dealt with post Brexit. The RSPB is a member and senior policy advisor Tom Lancaster says it’s not only getting the policies in place, but also ensuring there is the structure in place to enforce them. It’s this “governance gap” that worries him and many other environmental leaders who say we can’t risk further damage to an already fragile environment. “ If you look at the Farmland Bird Index, which is a classic indicator for the health of the wider countryside, that continues to decline – it declined by around 10 per cent between 2010 and 2015,” Lancaster says. The RSPB and other Greener UK members see Brexit as an opportunity to look at how we farm with a fresh eye. But how do you balance the need to maximise food production with the desire to protect the environment? Lancaster thinks the two aren’t mutually exclusive, in fact he thinks they’re mutually beneficial. " We’ve always made the argument that investing in the natural environment can and does have real benefits for farming and for food production, as farming more than any other industry depends upon natural resources like soil and water and pollinators,” he says. “ So it’s not just about this moral case, as important as that is. There’s also a really strong economic case for why you would restore the natural environment, particularly for agriculture but for other sectors of the economy too.” Wilfred Emmanuel-Jones is the founder of The Black Farmer – a company that produces beef, pork, chicken and eggs. He thinks a radical change in farming post Brexit would be a positive step. “ I think anything which is going to shake up the industry will be good for the industry in the long term,” he says. Emmanuel-Jones says we should move away from growing commodity products and instead focus on the premium and speciality market. “We have, for example in this country, a hundred different varieties of apple. So why in God’s name can you only buy four varieties of apples in the supermarket?” he asks. One of the problems is a food system focused on high volume and low margin. You only get that combination, Emmanuel-Jones says, by restricting choice. “ I think what needs to be looked at are the massive companies that have a big stranglehold on our food industry because what those guys want is to commoditise it,” he explains. “ They don’t like the work that’s speciality. They don’t like the work that’s small because it means it then becomes a bit more challenging for them.”
Changing our food system could help farmers in other ways, says Begg at the National Trust. “Lots of people make money out of the food industry. The people who probably don’t make as much as they might proportionately, are farmers.” The retail sector also has a role in educating consumers about where their food comes from and its real cost, since most consumers still buy primarily on price, he adds. With greater transparency, consumers could reliably buy based on where it comes from and how it’s been produced, rather than price alone. Could that change in a post-Brexit world? Could we as consumers take a greater responsibility for what we eat and where it comes from? Might we even discover on supermarket aisles, long forgotten fruits and vegetables? We don’t have long to find out. In the meantime, worries are tempered with hope and a spark of optimism. “ I think the post-Brexit world is going be fantastic,” says Emmanuel-Jones, “ because it’s an opportunity to change the rules.”End of article. My wife and I are members of the National Trust and RSPB and deeply concerned about the damage that has been done to the environment by the CAP. Naturally people are worried and in some cases fear change, but I have supreme confidence that the British people will address the issues facing us, no matter what obstacles are put in the way. An article from 3 years ago about potential opportunities means little when you have some like Rebanks , someone who was optimistic abut Brexit, someone committed to a new sustainable way of farming with a deep love of the countryside, expressing deep concern at the unfolding reality.
|
|
|
Post by foghornsgleghorn on Jun 17, 2021 20:08:33 GMT
Interested in thoughts on immigration policy. Covid is the dominant force at play at the moment, but post-Covid , it seems that that the UK's new immigration policy means we either eat cheap imported meat or go vegan. Alternatively the UK could relax its immigration policy? www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57512243
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 17, 2021 20:32:26 GMT
Interested in thoughts on immigration policy. Covid is the dominant force at play at the moment, but post-Covid , it seems that that the UK's new immigration policy means we either eat cheap imported meat or go vegan. Alternatively the UK could relax its immigration policy? www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57512243 Aye there has to be a lot of changes and readjustment. Personally I think we should aim to be as self sufficient as possible and then get any produce as close as we can as possible. I don't nothing we should necessarily expect to get every and any exotic , out of season produce as is possible to get ,all round the year.....First World problem ,when many people are desperate to survive, to not be hungry, to be safe and secure. In my opinion, being an island people, we should eat more fish.
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Jun 17, 2021 20:41:54 GMT
Interested in thoughts on immigration policy. Covid is the dominant force at play at the moment, but post-Covid , it seems that that the UK's new immigration policy means we either eat cheap imported meat or go vegan. Alternatively the UK could relax its immigration policy? www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57512243 Good idea there’s around one million workers who would add immensely to this country waiting to be freed from Chinese tyranny in Hong Kong Start getting them the British passports they deserve and get them over here
|
|
|
Post by foster on Jun 17, 2021 20:45:45 GMT
Interested in thoughts on immigration policy. Covid is the dominant force at play at the moment, but post-Covid , it seems that that the UK's new immigration policy means we either eat cheap imported meat or go vegan. Alternatively the UK could relax its immigration policy? www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57512243 Aye there has to be a lot of changes and readjustment. Personally I think we should aim to be as self sufficient as possible and then get any produce as close as we can as possible. I don't nothing we should necessarily expect to get every and any exotic , out of season produce as is possible to get ,all round the year.....First World problem ,when many people are desperate to survive, to not be hungry, to be safe and secure. In my opinion, being an island people, we should eat more fish. I think we're pretty much on the same wavelength. Just that I think we could do this as an EU member and you think otherwise. We already had the pound and other specifics that other members didn't have. I don't see why given our economic power we couldn't have demanded more. Specifically in relation to non EU immigration. Best of both worlds basically.
|
|
|
Post by foster on Jun 17, 2021 20:50:14 GMT
Interested in thoughts on immigration policy. Covid is the dominant force at play at the moment, but post-Covid , it seems that that the UK's new immigration policy means we either eat cheap imported meat or go vegan. Alternatively the UK could relax its immigration policy? www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57512243 Good idea there’s around one million workers who would add immensely to this country waiting to be freed from Chinese tyranny in Hong Kong Start getting them the British passports they deserve and get them over here You really think a million educated people from Hong Kong are are going to come here to work in abattoirs We could get a million people currently on benefits to do that.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 17, 2021 20:54:12 GMT
Aye there has to be a lot of changes and readjustment. Personally I think we should aim to be as self sufficient as possible and then get any produce as close as we can as possible. I don't nothing we should necessarily expect to get every and any exotic , out of season produce as is possible to get ,all round the year.....First World problem ,when many people are desperate to survive, to not be hungry, to be safe and secure. In my opinion, being an island people, we should eat more fish. I think we're pretty much on the same wavelength. Just that I think we could do this as an EU member and you think otherwise. We already had the pound and other specifics that other members didn't have. I don't see why given our economic power we couldn't have demanded more. Specifically in relation to non EU immigration. Best of both worlds basically. Except , for me Fister, having read the treaties, the whole purpose of the EU is economic and political UNION, by ever closer union.....incremental steps , no matter how small, as long as the direction is....ever closer union. I don't want that because it undermines democracy. We did have " opt out"....but I believe because of " ever closer union" , we would not always been able to maintain them...there was already a two tier EU , the Eurogroup and the others.....the priority of the decision makers was and is the Eurogroup......eventually we would have to join or pay the price of not being in the msin group.....and at the basis of the project , you'd have to believe that the decision makers had the UK interests at heart....I don't....better off out, just like any independent country. But As we have both said The fact is We are now Out. So We need to Let it go And come together on what is best for the nation. And try to be a decent country in relation to the rest of the world. In my opinion.
|
|
|
Post by foster on Jun 17, 2021 20:59:02 GMT
I think we're pretty much on the same wavelength. Just that I think we could do this as an EU member and you think otherwise. We already had the pound and other specifics that other members didn't have. I don't see why given our economic power we couldn't have demanded more. Specifically in relation to non EU immigration. Best of both worlds basically. Except , for me Fister, having read the treaties, the whole purpose of the EU is economic and political UNION, by ever closer union.....incremental steps , no matter how small, as long as the direction is....ever closer union. I don't want that because it undermines democracy. We did have " opt out"....but I believe because of " ever closer union" , we would not always been able to maintain them...there was already a two tier EU , the Eurogroup and the others.....the priority of the decision makers was and is the Eurogroup......eventually we would have to join or pay the price of not being in the msin group.....and at the basis of the project , you'd have to believe that the decision makers had the UK interests at heart....I don't....better off out, just like any independent country. But As we have both said The fact is We ate now Out. So We need to Let it go And come together on what is best for the nation. And try to be a decent country in relation to the rest of the world. In my opinion. I have the distinct impression you've had a few beers tonight mate
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 17, 2021 21:02:39 GMT
Except , for me Fister, having read the treaties, the whole purpose of the EU is economic and political UNION, by ever closer union.....incremental steps , no matter how small, as long as the direction is....ever closer union. I don't want that because it undermines democracy. We did have " opt out"....but I believe because of " ever closer union" , we would not always been able to maintain them...there was already a two tier EU , the Eurogroup and the others.....the priority of the decision makers was and is the Eurogroup......eventually we would have to join or pay the price of not being in the msin group.....and at the basis of the project , you'd have to believe that the decision makers had the UK interests at heart....I don't....better off out, just like any independent country. But As we have both said The fact is We ate now Out. So We need to Let it go And come together on what is best for the nation. And try to be a decent country in relation to the rest of the world. In my opinion. I have the distinct impression you've had a few beers tonight mate Chardonnay Usually Wheat beer , or Belgium lager. But Just trying to make it clear where we agree and differ. Bottom line.....you wish we'd stayed in the EU , I'm glad we've left. But , unless you are being disingenuous, we agree that we need to move on.
|
|