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Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 25, 2021 16:14:25 GMT
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Post by partickpotter on May 25, 2021 17:38:48 GMT
There’s been plenty of comments.
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Post by mrcoke on May 25, 2021 23:01:53 GMT
If that is the best the NFU can do to fight for the farmers, then it is a pretty poor effort. What did she say? “It is more than disappointing to hear this news via the media – if accurate, this will have a massive impact on British farming....."Well she may be an expert but I feel quite free to question the comment "massive impact" Firstly let us examine the size of agriculture: In 2019, UK agriculture contributed around 0.61 percent to the United Kingdom’s GDP, 17.41 percent came from the manufacturing industry, and 71.26 percent from the services sector. I seem to remember a poster on this MB saying the government were stupid risking no trade deal with the EU last December for the sake of fighting for a deal for the fishing industry which makes negligible contribution to the UK's GDP. By far the largest part of agriculture's GDP is in arable products. Livestock is split between cattle, sheep, pigs, poultry and miscellaneous others. Cattle is split between beef and dairy. Beef varies between very high quality beef products and the cattle farmers working on low productivity uplands primarily in Scotland and Wales. The UK is a net importer of beef, mainly from the EU. So I struggle to see how importing beef from Australia will have a massive impact on British farming. Yes, there will be a massive impact on certain individual farmers who are only hanging on at present, and I feel sorry for them knowing what it was like in the steel industry seeing thousands tossed out of work during the 80s and subsequent decades. But the impact on British farming generally will hardly be very minor and on the UK GDP not noticeable. Secondly: What is already happening in British agriculture? In almost every aspect of British agriculture, with the notable exception of poultry, there is decline, since the 1990s. Chart 5 The number of cattle on British farms in the attached linked article shows the massive decline since the UK joined the EEC in the 70s and been "victim" of the European CAP. commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn03339/The number of cattle farmers continues to drift down by 1 % per year, so I expect over the next 15 years, if that is indeed the phasing period of the trade agreement with Australia, there will be 15% would have left the industry anyway. The British public (and many supermarkets) are generally very loyal to British beef. Most butchers sell locally produced product as certainly do the thousands of farmers markets around the country. I see little impact on any of that. If Australian beef end up anywhere it will be in the pies you buy at the footie! I expect most Australian beef will only displace other imported beef. Thirdly: Former Australian High Commissioner Alexander Downer has said that concerns over the post-Brexit trade deal with Australia are " childish". His has stated: " First of all Australia has no intention of flooding the British market, we have substantial markets in Asia and that's where the focus will be. To send beef, particularly to send large quantities of beef and sheep meat, 10,000 miles across the world is very expensive.
"The only access to the market we would ever have in the UK is at the very high end. A high end which is substantially served by the EU...... "if you want access to the Australian free market and we're offering free access to all British exports to Australia...then obviously that's expected to be reciprocated."
Project fear again: Downer has dismissed the "scare campaign" about flooding the UK market with hormone-injected beef, saying that while it is legal to do this in Australia, exporters have no intention of exporting meat that the UK does not want. He said: " Obviously we expect the UK exports, including agricultural exports, to meet Australian standards, and the UK expect Australia to meet UK standards," ..... "why would we try to flood the British market with a lot of poisonous food? That is childish." Of course he would say that wouldn't he? Just as the NFU spokespersons have to speak up on behalf of their members. I said in 2017 the negative impacts of Brexit would be in the short term, whilst the benefits would take years to work through into the economy. Trade deals are a two way street that are for mutual benefit so there are winners and losers on both sides. In the case of Australian beef though it isn't even short term it's phased over 15 years. That compares with the fishing deal with the EU where the UK will have 100% control of British waters in 2026. It may pain Remainers and lefties, but as a politically neutral I think Liz Truss is actually doing a damn good job, which makes a change for a British politician.
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Post by partickpotter on May 26, 2021 4:15:44 GMT
If that is the best the NFU can do to fight for the farmers, then it is a pretty poor effort. What did she say? “It is more than disappointing to hear this news via the media – if accurate, this will have a massive impact on British farming....."Well she may be an expert but I feel quite free to question the comment "massive impact" Firstly let us examine the size of agriculture: In 2019, UK agriculture contributed around 0.61 percent to the United Kingdom’s GDP, 17.41 percent came from the manufacturing industry, and 71.26 percent from the services sector. I seem to remember a poster on this MB saying the government were stupid risking no trade deal with the EU last December for the sake of fighting for a deal for the fishing industry which makes negligible contribution to the UK's GDP. By far the largest part of agriculture's GDP is in arable products. Livestock is split between cattle, sheep, pigs, poultry and miscellaneous others. Cattle is split between beef and dairy. Beef varies between very high quality beef products and the cattle farmers working on low productivity uplands primarily in Scotland and Wales. The UK is a net importer of beef, mainly from the EU. So I struggle to see how importing beef from Australia will have a massive impact on British farming. Yes, there will be a massive impact on certain individual farmers who are only hanging on at present, and I feel sorry for them knowing what it was like in the steel industry seeing thousands tossed out of work during the 80s and subsequent decades. But the impact on British farming generally will hardly be very minor and on the UK GDP not noticeable. Secondly: What is already happening in British agriculture? In almost every aspect of British agriculture, with the notable exception of poultry, there is decline, since the 1990s. Chart 5 The number of cattle on British farms in the attached linked article shows the massive decline since the UK joined the EEC in the 70s and been "victim" of the European CAP. commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn03339/The number of cattle farmers continues to drift down by 1 % per year, so I expect over the next 15 years, if that is indeed the phasing period of the trade agreement with Australia, there will be 15% would have left the industry anyway. The British public (and many supermarkets) are generally very loyal to British beef. Most butchers sell locally produced product as certainly do the thousands of farmers markets around the country. I see little impact on any of that. If Australian beef end up anywhere it will be in the pies you buy at the footie! I expect most Australian beef will only displace other imported beef. Thirdly: Former Australian High Commissioner Alexander Downer has said that concerns over the post-Brexit trade deal with Australia are " childish". His has stated: " First of all Australia has no intention of flooding the British market, we have substantial markets in Asia and that's where the focus will be. To send beef, particularly to send large quantities of beef and sheep meat, 10,000 miles across the world is very expensive.
"The only access to the market we would ever have in the UK is at the very high end. A high end which is substantially served by the EU...... "if you want access to the Australian free market and we're offering free access to all British exports to Australia...then obviously that's expected to be reciprocated."
Project fear again: Downer has dismissed the "scare campaign" about flooding the UK market with hormone-injected beef, saying that while it is legal to do this in Australia, exporters have no intention of exporting meat that the UK does not want. He said: " Obviously we expect the UK exports, including agricultural exports, to meet Australian standards, and the UK expect Australia to meet UK standards," ..... "why would we try to flood the British market with a lot of poisonous food? That is childish." Of course he would say that wouldn't he? Just as the NFU spokespersons have to speak up on behalf of their members. I said in 2017 the negative impacts of Brexit would be in the short term, whilst the benefits would take years to work through into the economy. Trade deals are a two way street that are for mutual benefit so there are winners and losers on both sides. In the case of Australian beef though it isn't even short term it's phased over 15 years. That compares with the fishing deal with the EU where the UK will have 100% control of British waters in 2026. It may pain Remainers and lefties, but as a politically neutral I think Liz Truss is actually doing a damn good job, which makes a change for a British politician. Very faint echos of the repeal of the corn laws here. Landed self interest looking to preserve an anachronistic system. Per the previous analysis posted on this thread, which rwb has ignored, some resistance to the changes required following Brexit as we wean an industry off CAP subsidies was inevitable. But change is absolutely necessary and needs seeing through. Farming in this country will be much better for this change. As will society generally. That is the substance of the matter.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 26, 2021 6:51:57 GMT
There’s been plenty of comments. Just two from what I can see, neither positive: Posted on: 21/05/2021 10:27:44 Comment: Why would anyone believe a word of the lies of the Prime Minister spouts every time he opens his mouth. He has duped us just like he duped the people of Northern Ireland. Posted on: 23/05/2021 17:53:24 Comment: Despicable - but typical of the many false promises made by this Government. How many more? Still, what do farmers know about how this proposed deal might actually affect them? I imagine they're probably anti-Tory people anyway, or the NFU is biased and has just picked some negative comments to back up the nonsense their president has come out with. Something like that.
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Post by partickpotter on May 26, 2021 7:33:46 GMT
There’s been plenty of comments. Just two from what I can see, neither positive: Posted on: 21/05/2021 10:27:44 Comment: Why would anyone believe a word of the lies of the Prime Minister spouts every time he opens his mouth. He has duped us just like he duped the people of Northern Ireland. Posted on: 23/05/2021 17:53:24 Comment: Despicable - but typical of the many false promises made by this Government. How many more? Still, what do farmers know about how this proposed deal might actually affect them? I imagine they're probably anti-Tory people anyway, or the NFU is biased and has just picked some negative comments to back up the nonsense their president has come out with. Something like that. You’re not looking very hard... but I guess my comments don’t count as I’m neither Tory or a Brexiteer.
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Post by partickpotter on May 26, 2021 7:37:54 GMT
There’s been plenty of comments. Just two from what I can see, neither positive: Posted on: 21/05/2021 10:27:44 Comment: Why would anyone believe a word of the lies of the Prime Minister spouts every time he opens his mouth. He has duped us just like he duped the people of Northern Ireland. Posted on: 23/05/2021 17:53:24 Comment: Despicable - but typical of the many false promises made by this Government. How many more? Still, what do farmers know about how this proposed deal might actually affect them? I imagine they're probably anti-Tory people anyway, or the NFU is biased and has just picked some negative comments to back up the nonsense their president has come out with. Something like that. Anyway... Putting your bitching and whining to one side. What is your opinion on the substance of the debate. Are you for free trade and changing farming culture and practice making it more environmentally friendly and economically productive producing better and cheaper food for the public or do you prefer a continuation of the wasteful, environmentally damaging practices arising from years of CAP subsidies that shits all over the public.
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Post by mrcoke on May 26, 2021 8:14:08 GMT
There’s been plenty of comments. Just two from what I can see, neither positive: Posted on: 21/05/2021 10:27:44 Comment: Why would anyone believe a word of the lies of the Prime Minister spouts every time he opens his mouth. He has duped us just like he duped the people of Northern Ireland. Posted on: 23/05/2021 17:53:24 Comment: Despicable - but typical of the many false promises made by this Government. How many more? Still, what do farmers know about how this proposed deal might actually affect them? I imagine they're probably anti-Tory people anyway, or the NFU is biased and has just picked some negative comments to back up the nonsense their president has come out with. Something like that. You have missed at least a couple of mine on this thread and other threads, going back to April. Try searching "beef". But then that is hardly surprising as I suspect you don't actually read what I write. I do rattle on sometimes.
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Post by mrcoke on May 26, 2021 9:48:01 GMT
Over 1 million Poles come to the UK after Poland joins the EU. Many of them actually vote for Brexit apparently. 900,000 apply for British citizenship along with millions of others. 150,000 decide the UK is not for them and choose to go home. Left wing press headline: " Homeward bound" the Poles disappointed. emerging-europe.com/news/the-poles-disappointed-by-britain/I would say that is 9:1.5 ratio in support of UK.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 26, 2021 10:59:09 GMT
Just two from what I can see, neither positive: Posted on: 21/05/2021 10:27:44 Comment: Why would anyone believe a word of the lies of the Prime Minister spouts every time he opens his mouth. He has duped us just like he duped the people of Northern Ireland. Posted on: 23/05/2021 17:53:24 Comment: Despicable - but typical of the many false promises made by this Government. How many more? Still, what do farmers know about how this proposed deal might actually affect them? I imagine they're probably anti-Tory people anyway, or the NFU is biased and has just picked some negative comments to back up the nonsense their president has come out with. Something like that. You’re not looking very hard... but I guess my comments don’t count as I’m neither Tory or a Brexiteer. I would have thought that my comment "Strange how few comments there are on that story from the traditionally Tory voting Brexit supporting farming sector..." was clear enough that it was referring to comment on that NFU online site, unless of course both you and Mr Coke are Tory supporting, Brexiteers from the farming sector, in which case, fair enough...
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Post by mrcoke on May 26, 2021 13:00:35 GMT
You’re not looking very hard... but I guess my comments don’t count as I’m neither Tory or a Brexiteer. I would have thought that my comment "Strange how few comments there are on that story from the traditionally Tory voting Brexit supporting farming sector..." was clear enough that it was referring to comment on that NFU online site, unless of course both you and Mr Coke are Tory supporting, Brexiteers from the farming sector, in which case, fair enough... Good one Since I voted Tory in the last election to "get it done" and live in the middle of North Yorkshire in Hambleton district " a place to grow", and spend a lot of time fighting the weeds that come into my garden from the field behind, so I guess I qualify! In terms of getting things done, some people belittle the trade agreements made by the government so far, saying they just roll over EU trade agreements, and are mocking the drawn out negotiations with Australia. The truth is the UK agreement with Japan has improved terms on the EU - Japan agreement, by phasing the reduction/removal of tariffs, etc. faster. The UK government rolled over EU - Canada agreement last year and made a firm joint commitment with Canada for an enhanced agreement before the end of the year. Surprise, surprise, I learnt today that the EU - Canada trade agreement is still not fully ratified and the Irish premier is complaining at the EU's tardiness. It beggars believe how bad the EU is! en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Economic_and_Trade_Agreement#:~:text=The%20European%20Parliament%20approved%20the,September%202017%2C%20excluding%20investment%20protection. www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/varadkar-delay-in-ratifying-eu-canada-trade-deal-sends-out-wrong-message-40471615.html
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 26, 2021 15:15:41 GMT
I would have thought that my comment "Strange how few comments there are on that story from the traditionally Tory voting Brexit supporting farming sector..." was clear enough that it was referring to comment on that NFU online site, unless of course both you and Mr Coke are Tory supporting, Brexiteers from the farming sector, in which case, fair enough... Good one Since I voted Tory in the last election to "get it done" and live in the middle of North Yorkshire in Hambleton district " a place to grow", and spend a lot of time fighting the weeds that come into my garden from the field behind, so I guess I qualify! In terms of getting things done, some people belittle the trade agreements made by the government so far, saying they just roll over EU trade agreements, and are mocking the drawn out negotiations with Australia. The truth is the UK agreement with Japan has improved terms on the EU - Japan agreement, by phasing the reduction/removal of tariffs, etc. faster. The UK government rolled over EU - Canada agreement last year and made a firm joint commitment with Canada for an enhanced agreement before the end of the year. Surprise, surprise, I learnt today that the EU - Canada trade agreement is still not fully ratified and the Irish premier is complaining at the EU's tardiness. It beggars believe how bad the EU is! en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Economic_and_Trade_Agreement#:~:text=The%20European%20Parliament%20approved%20the,September%202017%2C%20excluding%20investment%20protection. www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/varadkar-delay-in-ratifying-eu-canada-trade-deal-sends-out-wrong-message-40471615.htmlI think everyone wants to see trade deals done so that people's jobs and livelihoods are protected and enhanced. However, the flipside of people apparently mocking the trade deals we've done so far is people crowing about the success of them, when the reality, by and large, is that most of them have been simple roll-overs of existing EU membership deals. Additional to that, what concerns people, and is often misrepresented as "hating" or "knocking" the country for obvious reasons, is the fact that new deals might loosen environmental and financial regulation or damage various sectors in other ways. You can't deny that fishermen feel thoroughly sold down the river (pun intended!) about the deal that they've been landed with (another one!) and from what the Aussie trade deal proposes to unleash on farmers, they're not too delighted either - "more than disappointed" to quote the head of the NFU. It's great that our deal with Canada has been rolled over, one of the many I referenced above. I imagine, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, that the EU-Canada deal is probably a bit more involved and worth a lot more than ours, so is inevitably going to take longer. Let's see how quickly we manage to arrange a US trade deal and what sacrifices we may or may not have to make to get that one over the line? That's the issue with us now being a much smaller fish in the pond, much less bargaining power, with all the concessions we're starting to see as a result.
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Post by mrcoke on May 26, 2021 17:27:54 GMT
Good one Since I voted Tory in the last election to "get it done" and live in the middle of North Yorkshire in Hambleton district " a place to grow", and spend a lot of time fighting the weeds that come into my garden from the field behind, so I guess I qualify! In terms of getting things done, some people belittle the trade agreements made by the government so far, saying they just roll over EU trade agreements, and are mocking the drawn out negotiations with Australia. The truth is the UK agreement with Japan has improved terms on the EU - Japan agreement, by phasing the reduction/removal of tariffs, etc. faster. The UK government rolled over EU - Canada agreement last year and made a firm joint commitment with Canada for an enhanced agreement before the end of the year. Surprise, surprise, I learnt today that the EU - Canada trade agreement is still not fully ratified and the Irish premier is complaining at the EU's tardiness. It beggars believe how bad the EU is! en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Economic_and_Trade_Agreement#:~:text=The%20European%20Parliament%20approved%20the,September%202017%2C%20excluding%20investment%20protection. www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/varadkar-delay-in-ratifying-eu-canada-trade-deal-sends-out-wrong-message-40471615.htmlI think everyone wants to see trade deals done so that people's jobs and livelihoods are protected and enhanced. However, the flipside of people apparently mocking the trade deals we've done so far is people crowing about the success of them, when the reality, by and large, is that most of them have been simple roll-overs of existing EU membership deals. Additional to that, what concerns people, and is often misrepresented as "hating" or "knocking" the country for obvious reasons, is the fact that new deals might loosen environmental and financial regulation or damage various sectors in other ways. You can't deny that fishermen feel thoroughly sold down the river (pun intended!) about the deal that they've been landed with (another one!) and from what the Aussie trade deal proposes to unleash on farmers, they're not too delighted either - "more than disappointed" to quote the head of the NFU. It's great that our deal with Canada has been rolled over, one of the many I referenced above. I imagine, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, that the EU-Canada deal is probably a bit more involved and worth a lot more than ours, so is inevitably going to take longer. Let's see how quickly we manage to arrange a US trade deal and what sacrifices we may or may not have to make to get that one over the line? That's the issue with us now being a much smaller fish in the pond, much less bargaining power, with all the concessions we're starting to see as a result. 1. If there is any crowing over rolled over trade deals, it's because Remainers said we would be "a small fish" and have no leverage to negotiate deals. So far the UK has agreed the same deals as when we were in the EU with c70 countries, or in the case of Japan a better deal. There was one African country that tried to get a better deal for themselves out of the UK, but Truss resisted and they agreed the same deal in the end after a month of WTO terms facing tax on bananas. Please tell, what are "all the concessions we're starting to see" ? 2. Regarding knocking, it was you that was posting last summer that the UK economy would be harder hit than the EU by the pandemic, quoting wild predictions by the OECD from the Telegraph with alacrity. I have a good memory. 3. Please read my quote again from the former Australian HC above; Australia expects to comply with UK law, and has no desire to sell the UK what it does not want. I have actually seen one quote that Welsh farmers see the deal with Australia as an opportunity to sell more of their world famous lamb to Australia. 4. Rolling over the Canada trade deal means the same deal to me, not that the EU - Canada deal is in some way worth more. In fact it is just the contrary, as well as getting the same deal as the EU , the UK has a commitment to agree a better deal. My point was the UK is pressing ahead with deals while the EU is failing to ratify because it needs the concurrence of so many countries. 5. I fully expect to see a trade deal with USA without any serious sacrifices. In fact they will able to supply pharmaceuticals to the NHS a lot cheaper than Germany. (Approved by NICE of course.) I fully expect over the next year or two our increase in exports to USA and China to far outstrip any loss of exports to the EU. Time will tell. The March import figures showed for the first time in decades our imports from ROW were higher than the EU. This is a step in the right direction to reduce the UK's massive dependence on the EU, which it appears can be "turned off" at any time by Brussels, French lorry drivers, or fishermen.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 26, 2021 18:25:40 GMT
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Post by mrcoke on May 26, 2021 20:18:30 GMT
This is brilliant news bj and well deserved by the workers there. I did go on record in the past to say that the threat of closure was not as serious as claimed by the anti Brexit brigade. My reasons were twofold: The Sunderland plant is a model of efficiency. Huge pressure is put on every employee and the turnover of staff is quite high. I am very familiar with the plant having toured it twice in my time, albeit quite some time ago. The car assembly industry have a league table of productivity and the Sunderland plant has been consistently in the top 10 in the world, which is dominated by Japanese and South Korean plants. I have been round Jaguar as well which is very impressive, but not in the same division as Sunderland. Consequently it was inconceivable to me that Nissan would close it, although nothing is impossible. The second factor is that Nissan play the political game well. As well as pressurising their employees, they pressurise government and have played the "we could close" card quite regularly over the last 40 years to get things out of government. The boom in electric car manufacture has produced huge demand for lithium for batteries. There is a world shortage due to a massive increase in demand and the price has inflated markedly. Lithium extraction is also a major environmental concern causing major pollution in some parts of the world. But joy of joys, there are natural lithium reserves in the UK, which are now beginning to be exploited. www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/first-lithium-carbonate-uk-produced-4911779www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impactAmazing what you can learn on Oatcake.
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Post by partickpotter on May 27, 2021 4:41:57 GMT
You’re not looking very hard... but I guess my comments don’t count as I’m neither Tory or a Brexiteer. I would have thought that my comment "Strange how few comments there are on that story from the traditionally Tory voting Brexit supporting farming sector..." was clear enough that it was referring to comment on that NFU online site, unless of course both you and Mr Coke are Tory supporting, Brexiteers from the farming sector, in which case, fair enough... Magnificent pin head dancing there. Anyway, back to a question you keep avoiding... Putting your bitching and whining to one side. What is your opinion on the substance of the debate. Are you for free trade and changing farming culture and practice making it more environmentally friendly and economically productive producing better and cheaper food for the public or do you prefer a continuation of the wasteful, environmentally damaging practices arising from years of CAP subsidies that shits all over the public.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 27, 2021 7:21:57 GMT
I would have thought that my comment "Strange how few comments there are on that story from the traditionally Tory voting Brexit supporting farming sector..." was clear enough that it was referring to comment on that NFU online site, unless of course both you and Mr Coke are Tory supporting, Brexiteers from the farming sector, in which case, fair enough... Magnificent pin head dancing there. Anyway, back to a question you keep avoiding... Putting your bitching and whining to one side. What is your opinion on the substance of the debate. Are you for free trade and changing farming culture and practice making it more environmentally friendly and economically productive producing better and cheaper food for the public or do you prefer a continuation of the wasteful, environmentally damaging practices arising from years of CAP subsidies that shits all over the public. Not really, it was pretty obvious I was talking about comments from the Tory supporting, Brexit voting farming sector, (which is why I wrote exactly that!) but you obviously missed the point again. I like the way you've framed the question in such an open-minded way! I'm all for those changes to the farming sector. If that's what's ultimately delivered, great. So far, this govt has identified targets for ten years ahead that would be fantastic for the environment, and made decisions that do the opposite, so we'll see if your assumption about the way we're heading delivers those benefits. So far, legally binding commitments on key areas of pollution, nature restoration, waste and resource use have been put off to 2037. Govt published environmental principles, which are supposed to prevent branches of government acting in ways that could harm the environment, will not now apply to key departments such as defence and the Treasury. The govt has repeatedly refused to honour a commitment that future rules will be no weaker than those which applied when the UK was an EU member state. A Greener UK analysis of post Brexit policy direction ranked policy areas – including air quality, water, land use, fisheries and climate – with a traffic light system, where green represented an improvement on the rules under EU membership and red a weakening. Across the eight areas examined, four – water, land use, fisheries and climate – were ranked as amber, meaning they were about the same, while four – air quality, chemicals, nature, waste and resources – were red. None were ranked green. Of course, they're biased.
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Post by mrcoke on May 27, 2021 8:09:24 GMT
Magnificent pin head dancing there. Anyway, back to a question you keep avoiding... Putting your bitching and whining to one side. What is your opinion on the substance of the debate. Are you for free trade and changing farming culture and practice making it more environmentally friendly and economically productive producing better and cheaper food for the public or do you prefer a continuation of the wasteful, environmentally damaging practices arising from years of CAP subsidies that shits all over the public. Not really, it was pretty obvious I was talking about comments from the Tory supporting, Brexit voting farming sector, (which is why I wrote exactly that!) but you obviously missed the point again. I like the way you've framed the question in such an open-minded way! I'm all for those changes to the farming sector. If that's what's ultimately delivered, great. So far, this govt has identified targets for ten years ahead that would be fantastic for the environment, and made decisions that do the opposite, so we'll see if your assumption that the way we're heading delivers those benefits. So far, legally binding commitments on key areas of pollution, nature restoration, waste and resource use have been put off to 2037. Govt published environmental principles, which are supposed to prevent branches of government acting in ways that could harm the environment, will not now apply to key departments such as defence and the Treasury. The govt has repeatedly refused to honour a commitment that future rules will be no weaker than those which applied when the UK was an EU member state. A Greener UK analysis of post Brexit policy direction ranked policy areas – including air quality, water, land use, fisheries and climate – with a traffic light system, where green represented an improvement on the rules under EU membership and red a weakening. Across the eight areas examined, four – water, land use, fisheries and climate – were ranked as amber, meaning they were about the same, while four – air quality, chemicals, nature, waste and resources – were red. None were ranked green. Of course, they're biased. I think you should read Greener UK traffic light system more closely. It is not an analysis of post Brexit policy, it is simply a risk tracker of their analysis of how the UK is performing. greeneruk.org/risk-trackerFor example, consider the most serious hazard air quality, primarily due to car exhausts that is the first item on the tracker. The analysis is quite scathing of UK performance which is quite correct and relates events while the UK was a member of the EU. There is no mention of the fact that the UK's performance was actually better than most of the EU countries. (Please read my post in April 13, page 1364) www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/2018/11/mapped-europes-most-and-least-polluted-countries#UKSince leaving the EU the government has announced plans to ban the sale of new petrol and diesel cars in 2030. The EU has announced nothing yet and is pondering on whether to ban new sales in 2035. The EU Commission has actually stopped Denmark introducing legislation to ban i/c cars. Who wants to live in a country where the environment is controlled in Brussels? So on the most serious hazard, the UK is years ahead of the EU. I could go on for a long time, but I expect you are not actually interested, and totally blinkered about the EU.
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Post by mrcoke on May 27, 2021 8:46:54 GMT
I would have thought that my comment "Strange how few comments there are on that story from the traditionally Tory voting Brexit supporting farming sector..." was clear enough that it was referring to comment on that NFU online site, unless of course both you and Mr Coke are Tory supporting, Brexiteers from the farming sector, in which case, fair enough... Magnificent pin head dancing there. Anyway, back to a question you keep avoiding... Putting your bitching and whining to one side. What is your opinion on the substance of the debate. Are you for free trade and changing farming culture and practice making it more environmentally friendly and economically productive producing better and cheaper food for the public or do you prefer a continuation of the wasteful, environmentally damaging practices arising from years of CAP subsidies that shits all over the public. Good news partick, the EU is finally waking up to the damage CAP has done: www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0527/1224186-european-union-cap-talks/
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 27, 2021 12:27:06 GMT
Not really, it was pretty obvious I was talking about comments from the Tory supporting, Brexit voting farming sector, (which is why I wrote exactly that!) but you obviously missed the point again. I like the way you've framed the question in such an open-minded way! I'm all for those changes to the farming sector. If that's what's ultimately delivered, great. So far, this govt has identified targets for ten years ahead that would be fantastic for the environment, and made decisions that do the opposite, so we'll see if your assumption that the way we're heading delivers those benefits. So far, legally binding commitments on key areas of pollution, nature restoration, waste and resource use have been put off to 2037. Govt published environmental principles, which are supposed to prevent branches of government acting in ways that could harm the environment, will not now apply to key departments such as defence and the Treasury. The govt has repeatedly refused to honour a commitment that future rules will be no weaker than those which applied when the UK was an EU member state. A Greener UK analysis of post Brexit policy direction ranked policy areas – including air quality, water, land use, fisheries and climate – with a traffic light system, where green represented an improvement on the rules under EU membership and red a weakening. Across the eight areas examined, four – water, land use, fisheries and climate – were ranked as amber, meaning they were about the same, while four – air quality, chemicals, nature, waste and resources – were red. None were ranked green. Of course, they're biased. I think you should read Greener UK traffic light system more closely. It is not an analysis of post Brexit policy, it is simply a risk tracker of their analysis of how the UK is performing. greeneruk.org/risk-trackerFor example, consider the most serious hazard air quality, primarily due to car exhausts that is the first item on the tracker. The analysis is quite scathing of UK performance which is quite correct and relates events while the UK was a member of the EU. There is no mention of the fact that the UK's performance was actually better than most of the EU countries. (Please read my post in April 13, page 1364) www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/2018/11/mapped-europes-most-and-least-polluted-countries#UKSince leaving the EU the government has announced plans to ban the sale of new petrol and diesel cars in 2030. The EU has announced nothing yet and is pondering on whether to ban new sales in 2035. The EU Commission has actually stopped Denmark introducing legislation to ban i/c cars. Who wants to live in a country where the environment is controlled in Brussels? So on the most serious hazard, the UK is years ahead of the EU. I could go on for a long time, but I expect you are not actually interested, and totally blinkered about the EU. I could say exactly the same about your views on the EU, but it's interesting discussing it nonetheless. We'll see how the UK does over the next few years. The government has certainly set some challenging targets in place. Targets are one thing. Delivery is another. So far, I'm seeing fishermen complaining about delivery and the NFU likewise alarmed about the impact on them from another potential trade deal delivery. Let's see what further financial de-regulation brings about...
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Post by partickpotter on May 27, 2021 18:32:58 GMT
Magnificent pin head dancing there. Anyway, back to a question you keep avoiding... Putting your bitching and whining to one side. What is your opinion on the substance of the debate. Are you for free trade and changing farming culture and practice making it more environmentally friendly and economically productive producing better and cheaper food for the public or do you prefer a continuation of the wasteful, environmentally damaging practices arising from years of CAP subsidies that shits all over the public. Good news partick, the EU is finally waking up to the damage CAP has done: www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0527/1224186-european-union-cap-talks/That article doesn’t inspire much confidence that an agreement to change is coming any time soon.
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Post by partickpotter on May 27, 2021 18:59:22 GMT
Magnificent pin head dancing there. Anyway, back to a question you keep avoiding... Putting your bitching and whining to one side. What is your opinion on the substance of the debate. Are you for free trade and changing farming culture and practice making it more environmentally friendly and economically productive producing better and cheaper food for the public or do you prefer a continuation of the wasteful, environmentally damaging practices arising from years of CAP subsidies that shits all over the public. Not really, it was pretty obvious I was talking about comments from the Tory supporting, Brexit voting farming sector, (which is why I wrote exactly that!) but you obviously missed the point again. I like the way you've framed the question in such an open-minded way! I'm all for those changes to the farming sector. If that's what's ultimately delivered, great. So far, this govt has identified targets for ten years ahead that would be fantastic for the environment, and made decisions that do the opposite, so we'll see if your assumption about the way we're heading delivers those benefits. So far, legally binding commitments on key areas of pollution, nature restoration, waste and resource use have been put off to 2037. Govt published environmental principles, which are supposed to prevent branches of government acting in ways that could harm the environment, will not now apply to key departments such as defence and the Treasury. The govt has repeatedly refused to honour a commitment that future rules will be no weaker than those which applied when the UK was an EU member state. A Greener UK analysis of post Brexit policy direction ranked policy areas – including air quality, water, land use, fisheries and climate – with a traffic light system, where green represented an improvement on the rules under EU membership and red a weakening. Across the eight areas examined, four – water, land use, fisheries and climate – were ranked as amber, meaning they were about the same, while four – air quality, chemicals, nature, waste and resources – were red. None were ranked green. Of course, they're biased. So, you are in agreement with what the Government is proposing for the farmers. But you were unable to put your bitching and whining aside. I suspected that would be beyond you.
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Post by mrcoke on May 27, 2021 20:20:29 GMT
That article doesn’t inspire much confidence that an agreement to change is coming any time soon. The EU don't have a word for "soon". The EU started negotiations with India on a trade deal in 2007 but they dragged on for years and eventually ground to a halt. The UK is making rapid progress towards a deal so the EU has recently reopened discussion. EU negotiations with Switzerland on a closer arrangement have been going on for many many years and have been abandoned this week. The EU started negotiations with Canada on a trade deal in 2009, which were eventually concluded in 2016. The UK ratified the deal in 2018 and it was rolled over in December with a joint commitment to improve the terms this year. Many EU countries have not ratified the deal with Canada including Germany, France, Italy, The Netherlands, Belgium, and others. French farmers have already started protesting about changing the CAP so events could prove interesting.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 28, 2021 8:25:32 GMT
Not really, it was pretty obvious I was talking about comments from the Tory supporting, Brexit voting farming sector, (which is why I wrote exactly that!) but you obviously missed the point again. I like the way you've framed the question in such an open-minded way! I'm all for those changes to the farming sector. If that's what's ultimately delivered, great. So far, this govt has identified targets for ten years ahead that would be fantastic for the environment, and made decisions that do the opposite, so we'll see if your assumption about the way we're heading delivers those benefits. So far, legally binding commitments on key areas of pollution, nature restoration, waste and resource use have been put off to 2037. Govt published environmental principles, which are supposed to prevent branches of government acting in ways that could harm the environment, will not now apply to key departments such as defence and the Treasury. The govt has repeatedly refused to honour a commitment that future rules will be no weaker than those which applied when the UK was an EU member state. A Greener UK analysis of post Brexit policy direction ranked policy areas – including air quality, water, land use, fisheries and climate – with a traffic light system, where green represented an improvement on the rules under EU membership and red a weakening. Across the eight areas examined, four – water, land use, fisheries and climate – were ranked as amber, meaning they were about the same, while four – air quality, chemicals, nature, waste and resources – were red. None were ranked green. Of course, they're biased. So, you are in agreement with what the Government is proposing for the farmers. But you were unable to put your bitching and whining aside. I suspected that would be beyond you. You really need to lighten up a bit, partick I'm delighted the government has all these proposals to deliver a more sustainable agricultural sector. Proposals are one thing, delivery is another. Sadly, so far, the delivery aspect has been in the other direction. Always a good idea to look at what is actually put in place, rather than just words. So far, despite all the grandstanding and promises, our fishermen and now the NFU are also bitching and whining about delivery, actual and potential, so you'd best drop a line to them to tell them to stop too
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Post by mrcoke on May 28, 2021 9:05:57 GMT
So, you are in agreement with what the Government is proposing for the farmers. But you were unable to put your bitching and whining aside. I suspected that would be beyond you. You really need to lighten up a bit, partick I'm delighted the government has all these proposals to deliver a more sustainable agricultural sector. Proposals are one thing, delivery is another. Sadly, so far, the delivery aspect has been in the other direction. Always a good idea to look at what is actually put in place, rather than just words. So far, despite all the grandstanding and promises, our fishermen and now the NFU are also bitching and whining about delivery, actual and potential, so you'd best drop a line to them to tell them to stop too That is exactly right, I fully agree. We should not just accept politicians promises but look at the actual performance. That is why I am so opposed to EU membership. The performance is an utter shambles. Most of what is achieved is by Germany alone, although to be fair on environment France has performed well. I used to be strong supporter of EEC membership, but the blinkers came off in my case, particularly the way the world has changed in the last 20+ years, and is expected to change. Many EU economies are a basket case, corruption and pollution is rife, unemployment is high in many parts of the EU which is why 90% of EU residents have chosen to stay in this country and I expect many will come back post pandemic. If you really want to see the difference between the actual and words, please read my long discourse I posted on the environment on 13th April, page 1,364 which spells out the actual performance of the EU compared with the UK. I am equally confident that the UK will revolutionise agriculture now the CAP is gone, while the EU will spend a decades trying to change it. We have "leaders" in the UK who do care about the environment, who will push through change. Apart from the many conservation organisations that the UK has, there are organisations like The National Trust, and leaders like our Royal Family who constantly make positive influences on improving the environment. Our media, led by Attenborough, will also do a sterling job. The EU is bereft of leaders on the environment and agriculture apart from Greta Thunberg. The EU is driven by large corporate interests. truepublica.org.uk/eu/damage-corporate-lobbyists-eu-last-year/
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 28, 2021 11:34:21 GMT
You really need to lighten up a bit, partick I'm delighted the government has all these proposals to deliver a more sustainable agricultural sector. Proposals are one thing, delivery is another. Sadly, so far, the delivery aspect has been in the other direction. Always a good idea to look at what is actually put in place, rather than just words. So far, despite all the grandstanding and promises, our fishermen and now the NFU are also bitching and whining about delivery, actual and potential, so you'd best drop a line to them to tell them to stop too That is exactly right, I fully agree. We should not just accept politicians promises but look at the actual performance. That is why I am so opposed to EU membership. The performance is an utter shambles. Most of what is achieved is by Germany alone, although to be fair on environment France has performed well. I used to be strong supporter of EEC membership, but the blinkers came off in my case, particularly the way the world has changed in the last 20+ years, and is expected to change. Many EU economies are a basket case, corruption and pollution is rife, unemployment is high in many parts of the EU which is why 90% of EU residents have chosen to stay in this country and I expect many will come back post pandemic. If you really want to see the difference between the actual and words, please read my long discourse I posted on the environment on 13th April, page 1,364 which spells out the actual performance of the EU compared with the UK. I am equally confident that the UK will revolutionise agriculture now the CAP is gone, while the EU will spend a decades trying to change it. We have "leaders" in the UK who do care about the environment, who will push through change. Apart from the many conservation organisations that the UK has, there are organisations like The National Trust, and leaders like our Royal Family who constantly make positive influences on improving the environment. Our media, led by Attenborough, will also do a sterling job. The EU is bereft of leaders on the environment and agriculture apart from Greta Thunberg. The EU is driven by large corporate interests. truepublica.org.uk/eu/damage-corporate-lobbyists-eu-last-year/Well, we'll see. I hope you're right. The government has certainly identified some challenging targets to improve the environment, and they're to be welcomed. I'm pleased at least that you are in agreement that measuring what is delivered against politicians' promises is a worthwhile endeavour. Some folk appear to think we should forget about all that and just constantly look forward with little or no consideration of whether the two align or not...! So far, however, promises/targets etc have not materialised for the fishermen and the NFU isn't too happy on behalf of the farmers either, but perhaps the govt will pull a rabbit out of the hat and surprise us all over the next few years! My suspicion is that the bonfire of regulations that the government is indicating would suggest otherwise, but you never know...
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Post by mrcoke on May 28, 2021 12:24:02 GMT
That is exactly right, I fully agree. We should not just accept politicians promises but look at the actual performance. That is why I am so opposed to EU membership. The performance is an utter shambles. Most of what is achieved is by Germany alone, although to be fair on environment France has performed well. I used to be strong supporter of EEC membership, but the blinkers came off in my case, particularly the way the world has changed in the last 20+ years, and is expected to change. Many EU economies are a basket case, corruption and pollution is rife, unemployment is high in many parts of the EU which is why 90% of EU residents have chosen to stay in this country and I expect many will come back post pandemic. If you really want to see the difference between the actual and words, please read my long discourse I posted on the environment on 13th April, page 1,364 which spells out the actual performance of the EU compared with the UK. I am equally confident that the UK will revolutionise agriculture now the CAP is gone, while the EU will spend a decades trying to change it. We have "leaders" in the UK who do care about the environment, who will push through change. Apart from the many conservation organisations that the UK has, there are organisations like The National Trust, and leaders like our Royal Family who constantly make positive influences on improving the environment. Our media, led by Attenborough, will also do a sterling job. The EU is bereft of leaders on the environment and agriculture apart from Greta Thunberg. The EU is driven by large corporate interests. truepublica.org.uk/eu/damage-corporate-lobbyists-eu-last-year/Well, we'll see. I hope you're right. The government has certainly identified some challenging targets to improve the environment, and they're to be welcomed. I'm pleased at least that you are in agreement that measuring what is delivered against politicians' promises is a worthwhile endeavour. Some folk appear to think we should forget about all that and just constantly look forward with little or no consideration of whether the two align or not...! So far, however, promises/targets etc have not materialised for the fishermen and the NFU isn't too happy on behalf of the farmers either, but perhaps the govt will pull a rabbit out of the hat and surprise us all over the next few years! My suspicion is that the bonfire of regulations that the government is indicating would suggest otherwise, but you never know... Thank you for your measured response. You'll note in my long posts on page 1,364, I gave no credit to the UK for promises, just performance better than the EU. The fishermen suffered from Macron's obstinance that France would not agree to a trade deal if the UK got sovereignty of British waters. So a compromise was done with 5 years of phasing. That didn't help our fishermen if the EU then refused to buy British fish such as Jersey's, or banned unwashed shellfish. So in the short term the UK has lost out. I expect that eventually both sides will see the benefit of cooperation but not maybe till the present bunch of negotiators have moved on and there are fresh faces across the table with a more constructive attitude. I believe there is little to fear in agriculture. I have just been into town and visited the two butchers shops here in Easingwold and both intend to keep selling local North Yorkshire produce, which is as good as any in the world. The same goes for the butchers on the market square today I expect. www.easingwold.gov.uk/services/easingwold-town-council-services/easingwold-markets/friday-market/
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 28, 2021 13:56:21 GMT
Well, we'll see. I hope you're right. The government has certainly identified some challenging targets to improve the environment, and they're to be welcomed. I'm pleased at least that you are in agreement that measuring what is delivered against politicians' promises is a worthwhile endeavour. Some folk appear to think we should forget about all that and just constantly look forward with little or no consideration of whether the two align or not...! So far, however, promises/targets etc have not materialised for the fishermen and the NFU isn't too happy on behalf of the farmers either, but perhaps the govt will pull a rabbit out of the hat and surprise us all over the next few years! My suspicion is that the bonfire of regulations that the government is indicating would suggest otherwise, but you never know... Thank you for your measured response. You'll note in my long posts on page 1,364, I gave no credit to the UK for promises, just performance better than the EU. The fishermen suffered from Macron's obstinance that France would not agree to a trade deal if the UK got sovereignty of British waters. So a compromise was done with 5 years of phasing. That didn't help our fishermen if the EU then refused to buy British fish such as Jersey's, or banned unwashed shellfish. So in the short term the UK has lost out. I expect that eventually both sides will see the benefit of cooperation but not maybe till the present bunch of negotiators have moved on and there are fresh faces across the table with a more constructive attitude. I believe there is little to fear in agriculture. I have just been into town and visited the two butchers shops here in Easingwold and both intend to keep selling local North Yorkshire produce, which is as good as any in the world. The same goes for the butchers on the market square today I expect. www.easingwold.gov.uk/services/easingwold-town-council-services/easingwold-markets/friday-market/No problem. Your responses about the environment were mainly about my commenting on the opinions of those environmental experts who considered that membership of the EU delivered greater environmental protections than would have been in place otherwise. Relative performance by the UK and EU countries is a slightly different thing. After all, it's quite possible for those countries to have benefited from EU membership in a similar way to the UK, whilst having poorer outcomes and poorer performance than the UK. That wouldn't invalidate the comparison of their having benefited from membership against not having been a member. New legislation and regulation will be the proof of the pudding, not promises and targets, as you say, so we'll have to wait and see what transpires.
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Post by mrcoke on May 29, 2021 9:40:53 GMT
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Post by mrcoke on May 29, 2021 10:27:46 GMT
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