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Post by followyoudown on Nov 18, 2020 20:37:26 GMT
Brexit is a disaster for the british car industry ohhhhh
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 18, 2020 20:51:52 GMT
Dunno Oggy. I can't predict what will happen in the future. In June 2016 we voted to leave the EU though. Let's hope democracy prevails....and is respected....and in terms of trade the best is done by the politicians for ordinary people in the UK.......and in Europe. If we leave without being a member of the single market and custons union we are betraying the will of the people because that’s what the official vote leave website said we would do Takes two to negotiate and agree, I think most people understand that. Can't agree to any deal, particularly one that doesn't respect the other party's independence. Let's hope we get a deal that does thst.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Nov 18, 2020 21:32:43 GMT
Brexit is a disaster for the british car industry ohhhhh I read that as production of the electric vehicles in Germany will be accelerated and Britain can make the combustion engines with a limited future. Meanwhile: www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54986195
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 18, 2020 23:42:40 GMT
Brexit is a disaster for the british car industry ohhhhh I read that as production of the electric vehicles in Germany will be accelerated and Britain can make the combustion engines with a limited future. Meanwhile: www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54986195Why do Europhiles always talk their country down and preach doom and gloom? We were told there would be an immediate recession if the country voted to leave the EU in 2016. The reality was that pre-pandemic we had record employment and the lowest unemployment for over 40 years, and record exports. www.gov.uk/government/news/2019-was-record-breaking-year-for-uk-exports which beat 2018 UK record exports. The manufacture of cars will move to third world countries in the future, who can produce them much cheaper with lower energy costs and cheaper labour than the UK or Germany. The UK is the largest European market for Korean cars and it will grow, pushing out European manufacturers. I have lived in the North East on and off for over 40 years. Nissan, which I have been round twice, have constantly made press releases of cut backs at Sunderland for decades. It is there ploy to keep the pressure on government, local authorities, and the workers. Good news for the north east. My old steelworks which was shutdown is going to get a new lease of life: www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/18879805.government-backs-net-zero-teesside-200m-funding-create-two-carbon-capture-clusters/www.teesinvest.com/2020/11/18/government-backs-net-zero-teesside/There's more: A major investment planned for a new quay at a plant I was once responsible for : www.teesinvest.com/2020/11/11/mayor-unveils-plans-for-new-90million-quay-on-river-tees-for-worlds-biggest-wind-farms/UK is a great country and will be greater outside of the EU, like Australia, Canada, and 100s of other free countries. Most of the top 20 world economies are not in the EU.
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Post by partickpotter on Nov 19, 2020 6:53:02 GMT
You seem to suffer from selective memory as well as selective quoting. Your original point was that Brexit was an FDI disaster for the UK. Period. You subsequently cited Germany but as an example of the EU as a whole. But, Germany is not representative of the EU as a whole. So, if Brexit is driving FDI performance and explains why Germany is up while Britain is down, could you please explain how Brexit is affecting FDI reductions in France, Italy and the Netherlands. My original point was how leaving without a deal will be bad for many reason, 1 of which being foreign investment. The website you and I quoted attributes poor foreign investment in both England and Germany partly due to brexit, but it cites several positives for Germany (big upturn in foreign investment at the start of 2019 I believe) which directly refer it its membership of the EU.
I haven’t looked at other countries.Foreign investment is one of many reasons brexit is bad for the country. So why make a generic point when making a specific point.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Nov 19, 2020 6:54:51 GMT
I read that as production of the electric vehicles in Germany will be accelerated and Britain can make the combustion engines with a limited future. Meanwhile: www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54986195Why do Europhiles always talk their country down and preach doom and gloom? We were told there would be an immediate recession if the country voted to leave the EU in 2016. The reality was that pre-pandemic we had record employment and the lowest unemployment for over 40 years, and record exports. www.gov.uk/government/news/2019-was-record-breaking-year-for-uk-exports which beat 2018 UK record exports. The manufacture of cars will move to third world countries in the future, who can produce them much cheaper with lower energy costs and cheaper labour than the UK or Germany. The UK is the largest European market for Korean cars and it will grow, pushing out European manufacturers. I have lived in the North East on and off for over 40 years. Nissan, which I have been round twice, have constantly made press releases of cut backs at Sunderland for decades. It is there ploy to keep the pressure on government, local authorities, and the workers. Good news for the north east. My old steelworks which was shutdown is going to get a new lease of life: www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/18879805.government-backs-net-zero-teesside-200m-funding-create-two-carbon-capture-clusters/www.teesinvest.com/2020/11/18/government-backs-net-zero-teesside/There's more: A major investment planned for a new quay at a plant I was once responsible for : www.teesinvest.com/2020/11/11/mayor-unveils-plans-for-new-90million-quay-on-river-tees-for-worlds-biggest-wind-farms/UK is a great country and will be greater outside of the EU, like Australia, Canada, and 100s of other free countries. Most of the top 20 world economies are not in the EU. It was the Leave side pre-referendum arguing that the UK economy would thrive outside the EU. I smile at being termed a Europhile as I have no undying love for the EU , but when I see leavers banging on about the brave new future for fishing when key people in the industry are saying the new trading terms (deal or no) are a threat , or saying the car industry is going great guns when really it's a link to a post which says the investment in electric technology is being made in Bavaria, I do not consider it to be talking down the UK to put the other side. The examples given of the positive investment you mention are to be welcomed - there will be many others, I am still waiting to see the real positives which are as a result of Brexit.
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Post by partickpotter on Nov 19, 2020 6:58:03 GMT
Brexit is a disaster for the british car industry ohhhhh I read that as production of the electric vehicles in Germany will be accelerated and Britain can make the combustion engines with a limited future. Meanwhile: www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54986195This raises an issue way beyond Brexit. Why does British industry trail so far behind Germany. This is a wonderful example; Germany building for the future, Britain stuck in the past.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 19, 2020 7:49:41 GMT
If we leave without being a member of the single market and custons union we are betraying the will of the people because that’s what the official vote leave website said we would do More bollocks the official vote leave website said no such thing, you can not be a member of the single market if you are not in the EU, we will hsve access to the single market just every country in the world apart from north korea. It did. They have taken down the PDF
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 19, 2020 7:54:38 GMT
My original point was how leaving without a deal will be bad for many reason, 1 of which being foreign investment. The website you and I quoted attributes poor foreign investment in both England and Germany partly due to brexit, but it cites several positives for Germany (big upturn in foreign investment at the start of 2019 I believe) which directly refer it its membership of the EU.
I haven’t looked at other countries.Foreign investment is one of many reasons brexit is bad for the country. So why make a generic point when making a specific point. I am not sure you understand. I listed loads if reasons brexit was bad. Foreign investment being one. That website backs my point up, both in respect of Germany and UK. It says Germany is a good place to invest as it is part of the EU. If that is difficult for you to understand I can no longer assist you.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 19, 2020 7:56:21 GMT
If we leave without being a member of the single market and custons union we are betraying the will of the people because that’s what the official vote leave website said we would do Takes two to negotiate and agree, I think most people understand that. Can't agree to any deal, particularly one that doesn't respect the other party's independence. Let's hope we get a deal that does thst. It does. We are a law breaker with no integrity who is negotiating in bad faith and have little to offer. So you can see why the EU is playing hard and not bowing to our demands. We will bow either before the end of transition, or in the first 6 months after I expect.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 19, 2020 7:58:30 GMT
I read that as production of the electric vehicles in Germany will be accelerated and Britain can make the combustion engines with a limited future. Meanwhile: www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54986195Why do Europhiles always talk their country down and preach doom and gloom? We were told there would be an immediate recession if the country voted to leave the EU in 2016. The reality was that pre-pandemic we had record employment and the lowest unemployment for over 40 years, and record exports. www.gov.uk/government/news/2019-was-record-breaking-year-for-uk-exports which beat 2018 UK record exports. The manufacture of cars will move to third world countries in the future, who can produce them much cheaper with lower energy costs and cheaper labour than the UK or Germany. The UK is the largest European market for Korean cars and it will grow, pushing out European manufacturers. I have lived in the North East on and off for over 40 years. Nissan, which I have been round twice, have constantly made press releases of cut backs at Sunderland for decades. It is there ploy to keep the pressure on government, local authorities, and the workers. Good news for the north east. My old steelworks which was shutdown is going to get a new lease of life: www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/18879805.government-backs-net-zero-teesside-200m-funding-create-two-carbon-capture-clusters/www.teesinvest.com/2020/11/18/government-backs-net-zero-teesside/There's more: A major investment planned for a new quay at a plant I was once responsible for : www.teesinvest.com/2020/11/11/mayor-unveils-plans-for-new-90million-quay-on-river-tees-for-worlds-biggest-wind-farms/UK is a great country and will be greater outside of the EU, like Australia, Canada, and 100s of other free countries. Most of the top 20 world economies are not in the EU. So new investment in poor parts of the country couldn’t have happened without leaving the eu!?!? Why is that exactly?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 19, 2020 8:29:22 GMT
Takes two to negotiate and agree, I think most people understand that. Can't agree to any deal, particularly one that doesn't respect the other party's independence. Let's hope we get a deal that does thst. It does. We are a law breaker with no integrity who is negotiating in bad faith and have little to offer. So you can see why the EU is playing hard and not bowing to our demands. We will bow either before the end of transition, or in the first 6 months after I expect. In the UK there does seem to be an extraordinary number of people who hate their own country and hope it fails. Most peculiar, but even sadder. " The others must be better, leave it to them, whoever they are" Reminds me of this man. The condescending tone is disgraceful. According to the Cambridge dictionary, the meaning of " come to heel".... If a person or organization comes to heel, they agree to obey, usually because they have been forcefully persuaded to do so. This from Lord Kerr, the architect of Article 50
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Post by swampmongrel on Nov 19, 2020 8:40:47 GMT
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 19, 2020 8:49:26 GMT
Takes two to negotiate and agree, I think most people understand that. Can't agree to any deal, particularly one that doesn't respect the other party's independence. Let's hope we get a deal that does thst. It does. We are a law breaker with no integrity who is negotiating in bad faith and have little to offer. So you can see why the EU is playing hard and not bowing to our demands. We will bow either before the end of transition, or in the first 6 months after I expect. Law breaking negotiating in bad faith sounds like the Eu Could you point out where we have broken the law in relation to the Eu
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 19, 2020 9:06:19 GMT
It does. We are a law breaker with no integrity who is negotiating in bad faith and have little to offer. So you can see why the EU is playing hard and not bowing to our demands. We will bow either before the end of transition, or in the first 6 months after I expect. In the UK there does seem to be an extraordinary number of people who hate their own country and hope it fails. Most peculiar, but even sadder. " The others must be better, leave it to them, whoever they are" Reminds me of this man. The condescending tone is disgraceful. According to the Cambridge dictionary, the meaning of " come to heel".... If a person or organization comes to heel, they agree to obey, usually because they have been forcefully persuaded to do so. This from Lord Kerr, the architect of Article 50 I don’t know anyone who hates their country. A negotiation is not about being better than the other side. It’s about what you each have to offer and how much each side wants it. Every individual actually involved in the negotiations on both sides will be supremely competent.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 19, 2020 9:12:08 GMT
It does. We are a law breaker with no integrity who is negotiating in bad faith and have little to offer. So you can see why the EU is playing hard and not bowing to our demands. We will bow either before the end of transition, or in the first 6 months after I expect. Law breaking negotiating in bad faith sounds like the Eu Could you point out where we have broken the law in relation to the Eu Internal markets bill. It goes against the withdrawal agreement. It is not yet law, but it will be soon. Total bad faith. I negotiate for a living. I know the single must destructive thing you can do in a complex negotiation is to unilaterally break an agreement already reached. It damages trust and is in bad faith. What law have the EU breached in negotiations? How have they negotiated in bad faith? They have been consistent from day 1. We have flip-flopped, mostly because our leaders have said we can have our cake and eat it, which we obviously can’t. Our position has always been detached from reality. Negotiating and agreeing the withdrawal agreement and then subsequently legislating to break it is the perfect example. It also has tarnished our reputation in the world as being honest and it has made a US trade deal much harder
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 19, 2020 9:27:46 GMT
In the UK there does seem to be an extraordinary number of people who hate their own country and hope it fails. Most peculiar, but even sadder. " The others must be better, leave it to them, whoever they are" Reminds me of this man. The condescending tone is disgraceful. According to the Cambridge dictionary, the meaning of " come to heel".... If a person or organization comes to heel, they agree to obey, usually because they have been forcefully persuaded to do so. This from Lord Kerr, the architect of Article 50 I don’t know anyone who hates their country. A negotiation is not about being better than the other side. It’s about what you each have to offer and how much each side wants it. Every individual actually involved in the negotiations on both sides will be supremely competent. You've a funny way of showing the love of your country. Don't you think Lord Kerr is wrong in talking about one party" coming to heel"? Hardly shows mutual respect....and he's a British Lord. So by your reckoning if the two sides of this current negotiation, being supremely competent, cannot agree, it is best , regrettably, to end in no-deal and move on. It is better than either side relinquishing their integrity.
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Post by dutchstokie on Nov 19, 2020 9:29:29 GMT
Law breaking negotiating in bad faith sounds like the Eu Could you point out where we have broken the law in relation to the Eu Internal markets bill. It goes against the withdrawal agreement. It is not yet law, but it will be soon. Total bad faith. I negotiate for a living. I know the single must destructive thing you can do in a complex negotiation is to unilaterally break an agreement already reached. It damages trust and is in bad faith. What law have the EU breached in negotiations? How have they negotiated in bad faith? They have been consistent from day 1. We have flip-flopped, mostly because our leaders have said we can have our cake and eat it, which we obviously can’t. Our position has always been detached from reality. Negotiating and agreeing the withdrawal agreement and then subsequently legislating to break it is the perfect example. It also has tarnished our reputation in the world as being honest and it has made a US trade deal much harder Can you negotiate on behalf of Tony Scholes please ?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 19, 2020 9:47:38 GMT
Law breaking negotiating in bad faith sounds like the Eu Could you point out where we have broken the law in relation to the Eu Internal markets bill. It goes against the withdrawal agreement. It is not yet law, but it will be soon. Total bad faith. I negotiate for a living. I know the single must destructive thing you can do in a complex negotiation is to unilaterally break an agreement already reached. It damages trust and is in bad faith. What law have the EU breached in negotiations? How have they negotiated in bad faith? They have been consistent from day 1. We have flip-flopped, mostly because our leaders have said we can have our cake and eat it, which we obviously can’t. Our position has always been detached from reality. Negotiating and agreeing the withdrawal agreement and then subsequently legislating to break it is the perfect example. It also has tarnished our reputation in the world as being honest and it has made a US trade deal much harder Most of the reason for uncertainty on our part is because of Remainers being unable to accept the fact that most people who voted in the UK wanted to leave and they have done( and still are doing) everything they can to prevent us from leaving ( Hard/ soft Brexit, Miller, deceitful Remainer May, Confirmatory referendums/ Bollox to Brexit). From the Spectator: I have always loved the story of Hiroo Onoda, a Japanese soldier who refused to believe the Second World War was over and stayed hiding in the Philippines until his former commanding officer was brought out of retirement and ordered him to surrender. That was in, 1974, 29 years after the end of hostilities. But I wouldn’t bet on the final Remainer holdouts giving up their struggle so quickly. If Lord Kerr of Kinlochard can be gently persuaded out from behind one of the red benches in the House of Lords before 2049 – when he’ll be 106 – I would consider it a triumph of negotiation. It would be an even greater wonder if Lords Adonis and Heseltine could be tempted out by the same date. www.spectator.co.uk/article/lord-kerr-s-stupid-brexit-jibe-shows-some-remainers-have-learned-nothing
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 19, 2020 10:17:46 GMT
Why do Europhiles always talk their country down and preach doom and gloom? We were told there would be an immediate recession if the country voted to leave the EU in 2016. The reality was that pre-pandemic we had record employment and the lowest unemployment for over 40 years, and record exports. www.gov.uk/government/news/2019-was-record-breaking-year-for-uk-exports which beat 2018 UK record exports. The manufacture of cars will move to third world countries in the future, who can produce them much cheaper with lower energy costs and cheaper labour than the UK or Germany. The UK is the largest European market for Korean cars and it will grow, pushing out European manufacturers. I have lived in the North East on and off for over 40 years. Nissan, which I have been round twice, have constantly made press releases of cut backs at Sunderland for decades. It is there ploy to keep the pressure on government, local authorities, and the workers. Good news for the north east. My old steelworks which was shutdown is going to get a new lease of life: www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/18879805.government-backs-net-zero-teesside-200m-funding-create-two-carbon-capture-clusters/www.teesinvest.com/2020/11/18/government-backs-net-zero-teesside/There's more: A major investment planned for a new quay at a plant I was once responsible for : www.teesinvest.com/2020/11/11/mayor-unveils-plans-for-new-90million-quay-on-river-tees-for-worlds-biggest-wind-farms/UK is a great country and will be greater outside of the EU, like Australia, Canada, and 100s of other free countries. Most of the top 20 world economies are not in the EU. So new investment in poor parts of the country couldn’t have happened without leaving the eu!?!? Why is that exactly? blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/05/21/long-read-does-the-eu-stop-britain-from-using-state-aid-to-help-its-economy/Meanwhile many countries in the EU turn a blind eye to state aid and rules. I have given countless examples in previous posts of German cartel, ignoring CE marking rules, lower standards on safety of guarding and electrical regulations across the EU, funding of environmental projects in The Netherlands, government loans to Italian and Irish steel, environment laws ignored by Italian steelworks. I have posted countless links to examples of these. I used to Chair a European committee and the Germans had the largest representation, because they had the largest industry. What the German said was what happened, and all their neighbouring countries towed the line. Or maybe that should be "came to heel". The post on German car investment initiated this latest discussion. Some of us haven't forgotten "dieselgate". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 19, 2020 10:20:32 GMT
So new investment in poor parts of the country couldn’t have happened without leaving the eu!?!? Why is that exactly? blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/05/21/long-read-does-the-eu-stop-britain-from-using-state-aid-to-help-its-economy/Meanwhile many countries in the EU turn a blind eye to state aid and rules. I have given countless examples in previous posts of German cartel, ignoring CE marking rules, lower standards on safety of guarding and electrical regulations across the EU, funding of environmental projects in The Netherlands, government loans to Italian and Irish steel, environment laws ignored by Italian steelworks. I have posted countless links to examples of these. I used to Chair a European committee and the Germans had the largest representation, because they had the largest industry. What the German said was what happened, and all their neighbouring countries towed the line. Or maybe that should be "came to heel". The post on German car investment initiated this latest discussion. Some of us haven't forgotten "dieselgate". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandalEDIT:The thing Merkel is most afraid of UK government investing in UK commerce, the way the German government covertly does, and hence demanding "level playing field rules" where they can control UK investment.
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Post by foster on Nov 19, 2020 10:23:58 GMT
Internal markets bill. It goes against the withdrawal agreement. It is not yet law, but it will be soon. Total bad faith. I negotiate for a living. I know the single must destructive thing you can do in a complex negotiation is to unilaterally break an agreement already reached. It damages trust and is in bad faith. What law have the EU breached in negotiations? How have they negotiated in bad faith? They have been consistent from day 1. We have flip-flopped, mostly because our leaders have said we can have our cake and eat it, which we obviously can’t. Our position has always been detached from reality. Negotiating and agreeing the withdrawal agreement and then subsequently legislating to break it is the perfect example. It also has tarnished our reputation in the world as being honest and it has made a US trade deal much harder Most of the reason for uncertainty on our part is because of Remainers being unable to accept the fact that most people who voted in the UK wanted to leave and they have done( and still are doing) everything they can to prevent us from leaving ( Hard/ soft Brexit, Miller, deceitful Remainer May, Confirmatory referendums/ Bollox to Brexit). I think you need to stop blaming remainers for having the foresight to see where this whole shit-show was heading. The ones slowing it down are those the people voted for that are now unwilling and unable to do what they promised, and that's their fault for not doing their due diligence. You can't pretend like they didn't do their research or needn't bother taking into account every possible eventuality. Considering the future, being prepared and setting realistic expectations is the minimum you should expect from your leaders. It's something you learn as a kid... 'Don't make promises you can't keep'. I don't care what type of Brexit we get tbh, though I agree that it should have been done years ago.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 19, 2020 10:25:57 GMT
Most of the reason for uncertainty on our part is because of Remainers being unable to accept the fact that most people who voted in the UK wanted to leave and they have done( and still are doing) everything they can to prevent us from leaving ( Hard/ sift Brexit, Miller, deceitful Remainer May, Confirmatory referendums/ Bollox to Brexit). I think you need to stop blaming remainers for having the foresight to see where this whole shit-show was heading. The ones slowing it down are those the people voted for that are now unwilling and unable to do what they promised, and that's their fault for not doing their due diligence. You can't pretend like they didn't do their research or needn't bother taking into account every possible eventuality. Considering the future, being prepared and setting realistic expectations is the minimum you should expect from your leaders. It's something you learn as a kid... 'Don't make promises you can't keep'. I don't care what type of Brexit we get tbh, though I agree that it should have been done years ago. It is Remainers who have caused the delay, the inability to accept the result and the confusion. They still cannot accept it, no matter how you try to reason it out. The major promise was " Its your decision, not ours, not politicians, We will do what you decide. Out means out"...let's honour that decision and promise.
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Post by foster on Nov 19, 2020 10:30:43 GMT
I agree BJR. Out means out.
So those in charge failed to deliver that. Blame them for not ensuring they could deliver on their promises before making them.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 19, 2020 10:41:23 GMT
I agree BJR. Out means out. So those in charge failed to deliver that. Blame them for not ensuring they could deliver on their promises before making them. It was a simple promise " out means out"....deliberately confused by those ( including our own May government) who could not accept it. If Farage had been in charge we would have been out by December 2018 and would have had none of this nonsense thst you have willingly bought into. The ballot paper question was clear, even thick northerners understood it , that's why they turned out to vote. A simple concept , remain in the EU or Leave. I think that you are doing the usual....mixing up leaving the EU with trade deals. Bit like Trump not accepting the result of the US election
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 19, 2020 11:50:22 GMT
Why do Europhiles always talk their country down and preach doom and gloom? We were told there would be an immediate recession if the country voted to leave the EU in 2016. The reality was that pre-pandemic we had record employment and the lowest unemployment for over 40 years, and record exports. www.gov.uk/government/news/2019-was-record-breaking-year-for-uk-exports which beat 2018 UK record exports. The manufacture of cars will move to third world countries in the future, who can produce them much cheaper with lower energy costs and cheaper labour than the UK or Germany. The UK is the largest European market for Korean cars and it will grow, pushing out European manufacturers. I have lived in the North East on and off for over 40 years. Nissan, which I have been round twice, have constantly made press releases of cut backs at Sunderland for decades. It is there ploy to keep the pressure on government, local authorities, and the workers. Good news for the north east. My old steelworks which was shutdown is going to get a new lease of life: www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/18879805.government-backs-net-zero-teesside-200m-funding-create-two-carbon-capture-clusters/www.teesinvest.com/2020/11/18/government-backs-net-zero-teesside/There's more: A major investment planned for a new quay at a plant I was once responsible for : www.teesinvest.com/2020/11/11/mayor-unveils-plans-for-new-90million-quay-on-river-tees-for-worlds-biggest-wind-farms/UK is a great country and will be greater outside of the EU, like Australia, Canada, and 100s of other free countries. Most of the top 20 world economies are not in the EU. It was the Leave side pre-referendum arguing that the UK economy would thrive outside the EU. I smile at being termed a Europhile as I have no undying love for the EU , but when I see leavers banging on about the brave new future for fishing when key people in the industry are saying the new trading terms (deal or no) are a threat , or saying the car industry is going great guns when really it's a link to a post which says the investment in electric technology is being made in Bavaria, I do not consider it to be talking down the UK to put the other side. The examples given of the positive investment you mention are to be welcomed - there will be many others, I am still waiting to see the real positives which are as a result of Brexit. Apologies if I presumed you are a Europhile and you felt insulted. I don't know the detail of the BMW investment, but I would be surprised if there is not financial assistance from the Bavarian state and/or the German Federal government, on the grounds of for example environmental improvement as I have experienced in The Netherlands. For me the major positive of leaving the EU is sovereignty. The UK is governed by UK government who can sign up or terminate treaties, unions, or organisation rules, and not be subject to EU laws. We are entitled to the same , or better, trade deal than Canada, but struggling even to be treated like an independant country. Democracy is voting for the people who govern you and the ability, even if only once every 5 years, to remove government. The America war of independance was fought on the principle of "no taxation without representation". In the EU representation is via the Council of Ministers, and European Parliament. But the real power is with the European Commission who draft all legislation that is all in one direction towards ever greater union towards a United States of Europe with no regard to individual peoples apart from doling out regional and state aid to keep them "on side". The economic positive from leaving the EU is I accept a longer term issue. I have freely admitted there will be problems leaving after 40 years of integration. But if you look at world trends, UK trade trends, EU growth, the Euro (God help Greece and Italy), world demographics, etc. the EU might have been the place for the UK to be in the 1970s, but not in the 21st century. (See my previous posts.) 95% of future world economic growth will be outside of the EU which , apart from Germany, is stagnant. The majority of our exports are to the rest of the world and growing rapidly (pre-pandemic) compared to just 1% growth to the EU this millennium. It will take time to turn the UK "economic tanker" round, but it by far the best for the UK in the long term. One of the first real positives will be trade deals with countries the EU does not have deals with. That will take time to set up but the benefits will be massive in the long term. The are "doubting Thomases" but our history tells us we are uniquely placed with our geographical location, language, climate, and above all the talents of the British period to enjoy a bountiful future.
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Post by foster on Nov 19, 2020 11:52:58 GMT
I agree BJR. Out means out. So those in charge failed to deliver that. Blame them for not ensuring they could deliver on their promises before making them. It was a simple promise " out means out"....deliberately confused by those ( including our own May government) who could not accept it. If Farage had been in charge we would have been out by December 2018 and would have had none of this nonsense thst you have willingly bought into. The ballot paper question was clear, even thick northerners understood it , that's why they turned out to vote. A simple concept , remain in the EU or Leave. I think that you are doing the usual....mixing up leaving the EU with trade deals. Bit like Trump not accepting the result of the US election Either you've replied to the wrong person or you clearly didn't read my last posts since I'm not talking at all about trade deals and am in agreement that we should have been out years ago. Take a chill pill. Edit: By saying Farage would have delivered on it by now you're contradicting your point about Remainers causing the hold up. If it could have been done by now (as Farage would have done according to you), then the incumbent party could have done it by now also, and thus they are to blame.
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 19, 2020 12:06:20 GMT
Law breaking negotiating in bad faith sounds like the Eu Could you point out where we have broken the law in relation to the Eu Internal markets bill. It goes against the withdrawal agreement. It is not yet law, but it will be soon. Total bad faith. I negotiate for a living. I know the single must destructive thing you can do in a complex negotiation is to unilaterally break an agreement already reached. It damages trust and is in bad faith. What law have the EU breached in negotiations? How have they negotiated in bad faith? They have been consistent from day 1. We have flip-flopped, mostly because our leaders have said we can have our cake and eat it, which we obviously can’t. Our position has always been detached from reality. Negotiating and agreeing the withdrawal agreement and then subsequently legislating to break it is the perfect example. It also has tarnished our reputation in the world as being honest and it has made a US trade deal much harder So actually we haven’t broken the law The internal markets bill doesn’t break the law It only breaks the law if it is used Therefore it’s in the EU interest not to put us in the position to have to break it Just out of interest when you set out to negotiate do you have lines you can’t cross And do you have a plan in place if you fail Because all the internal markets bill is a plan in case the negotiations fail
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 19, 2020 12:39:58 GMT
It was a simple promise " out means out"....deliberately confused by those ( including our own May government) who could not accept it. If Farage had been in charge we would have been out by December 2018 and would have had none of this nonsense thst you have willingly bought into. The ballot paper question was clear, even thick northerners understood it , that's why they turned out to vote. A simple concept , remain in the EU or Leave. I think that you are doing the usual....mixing up leaving the EU with trade deals. Bit like Trump not accepting the result of the US election Either you've replied to the wrong person or you clearly didn't read my last posts since I'm not talking at all about trade deals and am in agreement that we should have been out years ago. Take a chill pill. Edit: By saying Farage would have delivered on it by now you're contradicting your point about Remainers causing the hold up. If it could have been done by now (as Farage would have done according to you), then the incumbent party could have done it by now also, and thus they are to blame. I'm chilled enough Pal, believeme. Just responding to your point about not keeping promises....the only real promise that there has been attempts not to keep is the of the referendum result ( bollox to Brexit). Indeed the deceitful May government was part of the problem....all the major political parties were in cahoots with the EU. The jury is still out on Johnson. Indeed if an actual genuine leaver such as Farage had been in charge, the "promise" of the referendum would have Indeed been delivered. The very fact that many still want to rerun the arguments indicates that some still cannot come to terms with the result. I think it would have been totally different if Remain had won.A total disregard for the electorate.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 19, 2020 12:43:35 GMT
In the UK there does seem to be an extraordinary number of people who hate their own country and hope it fails. Most peculiar, but even sadder. " The others must be better, leave it to them, whoever they are" Reminds me of this man. The condescending tone is disgraceful. According to the Cambridge dictionary, the meaning of " come to heel".... If a person or organization comes to heel, they agree to obey, usually because they have been forcefully persuaded to do so. This from Lord Kerr, the architect of Article 50 I don’t know anyone who hates their country. A negotiation is not about being better than the other side. It’s about what you each have to offer and how much each side wants it. Every individual actually involved in the negotiations on both sides will be supremely competent. Erm, you do know David Davis was our lead negotiator for some time, I take it?!
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