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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 22, 2020 17:16:33 GMT
Corona is all on Boris They did not have to call the referendum but it was put in place in the manifesto because people wanted it in there. They were frustrated by Blair and browns broken promise of a referendum. The tories wanted to put the debate to bed and the only way of doing that was by a vote Only they thought they would win They lost Parliment then tried every trick to over turn or thwart it. Failed again. It ruined May and led to Boris. So much time wasted hence the deadline we face now Yes, so pretty much all of it comes back to the Tories in the end. Their decisions to act, lose, call elections, lose majorities, bribe the DUP, call other elections, fail to get their own MPs to back legislation, resign, produce WAs, break WAs etc etc. That's what I said, basically. I mean, you can say they did it all with the best intentions and the highest moral ethics if you wish, I've no problem with that, but don't try to pretend it wasn't almost entirely their doing that we are where we are. I understand that you don't want it to be the case, but I'm pretty sure you'd be saying the exact same thing if it wasn't the Tories in power... Maybe you could equally blame labour for being a shit show of a opposition and there incoherent brexit message allowing boris to win with a large majority
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 22, 2020 17:25:34 GMT
Yes, so pretty much all of it comes back to the Tories in the end. Their decisions to act, lose, call elections, lose majorities, bribe the DUP, call other elections, fail to get their own MPs to back legislation, resign, produce WAs, break WAs etc etc. That's what I said, basically. I mean, you can say they did it all with the best intentions and the highest moral ethics if you wish, I've no problem with that, but don't try to pretend it wasn't almost entirely their doing that we are where we are. I understand that you don't want it to be the case, but I'm pretty sure you'd be saying the exact same thing if it wasn't the Tories in power... Maybe you could equally blame labour for being a shit show of a opposition and there incoherent brexit message allowing boris to win with a large majority You can't have it both ways, waga! Either you want your side to win, which you obviously did, and part of that might involve having a weak opposition to aid your side's victory, or you have a strong opposition which might not provide you with the government you want. Sometimes, just sometimes, not everything is always the fault of the political party which you don't support! Especially when your own choice is in government, screwing things up on a regular basis! Boris won a large majority because the majority of people, who don't give much of a stuff about politics in general, unlike those of us on here, were sick of Brexit, and just wanted it to go away. They were and are sick of hearing about it. Undoubtedly, Corbyn's unpopularity played a part of that too. But, as I said, you can't have it both ways!
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 22, 2020 18:36:48 GMT
Maybe you could equally blame labour for being a shit show of a opposition and there incoherent brexit message allowing boris to win with a large majority You can't have it both ways, waga! Either you want your side to win, which you obviously did, and part of that might involve having a weak opposition to aid your side's victory, or you have a strong opposition which might not provide you with the government you want. Sometimes, just sometimes, not everything is always the fault of the political party which you don't support! Especially when your own choice is in government, screwing things up on a regular basis! Boris won a large majority because the majority of people, who don't give much of a stuff about politics in general, unlike those of us on here, were sick of Brexit, and just wanted it to go away. They were and are sick of hearing about it. Undoubtedly, Corbyn's unpopularity played a part of that too. But, as I said, you can't have it both ways! I don’t want it both ways And currently i believe the government is doing a excellent job of brexit
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 22, 2020 18:43:45 GMT
History will show that one of the characteristics of Brexit is / was that it was an event in which political change was achieved through pressure from OUTSIDE Parliament and the Establishment ( and it is clear what is meant by that in the context of Brexit).The main driving force and leadership was provided by Farage . Both main political parties and the Establishment wanted "Remain" and used every method at their disposal to get it. For whatever reasons, when asked, the electorate wanted to Leave. Unbelievable! " the plebs" have not done as they were told. So the political Establishment, the old comfortable politicians who'd done well out of the EU emerged ( Blair, Kinnock) joined forces with the main parties, the legal profession, other " important " bodies and the EU to try to reverse things.
What is sad is that Labour sided with the Establishment, the status quo....completely out of touch with what people wanted. They could have grasped the once in a lifetime opportunity to change Britain for the better. Thornberry, Hilary Benn, Starmer, Cooper etc would have loved to have duped the electorate.....patronising......" yes we know what you want, but we know best, you didn't understand, We stand with Cameron and Osborne, we don't want our boat rocked"
What some Labour supporters don't seem to get....Pre-Referendum, their agenda and mission , their mantra was " how wrong and unjust everything is ( under the Tories)"......now it seems that they would like to have remained in that halcyon age.
And Brexiteers are not and have not promised that everything will be fine once we've left, far from it particularly in light of Covid.
I think the career politicians would have liked to Remain....because they could have carried out their political "ADMIN" job without having to make any hard POLITICAL decisions and ultimately would not have been accountable ( " sorry , can't do anything about that, it's EU policy). Nice work if you can get it. Hopefully we may start to attract some better quality MPs, but I won't hold my breath. In my opinion.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 23, 2020 1:56:23 GMT
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Post by partickpotter on Oct 23, 2020 5:29:39 GMT
I’m no expert on these trade rules but the final item in that article suggests the assertion made by the headline and, indeed, the main thrust of the article, may be somewhat disingenuous... “But some lawyers also stressed that the subsidy rules in the Japan bilateral deal were still weak compared with the detailed and invasive EU state aid regime. James Webber, a partner at the law firm Shearman & Sterling, said: “It’s a concession of sorts by the UK, but if this is where the negotiations end up, it will be much closer to the UK’s view of the world than the EU’s.” That final assessment seems about right to me on the basis that my impression is there is no trading entity anywhere in the world with more stringent state aid rules than the EU - in part to the fact that it is setting rules for so many member nations. I guess this is consistent with the approach of the FT which has generally been a harbinger of doom as relates to Brexit. Something that the likes of Tony Benn and Peter Shore if they were still around would probably not be too surprised about.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 23, 2020 6:55:19 GMT
Brexit in numbers
19 - months since the UK was originally scheduled to leave the EU under Article 50
12 - months Bluffer has been going on about his oven-ready deal
0 - number of deals Bluffer now tells us to prepare for
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 23, 2020 7:45:02 GMT
Brexit in numbers 19 - months since the UK was originally scheduled to leave the EU under Article 50 12 - months Bluffer has been going on about his oven-ready deal 0 - number of deals Bluffer now tells us to prepare for You forgot approx 16 million whinging remainers
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Post by thevoid on Oct 23, 2020 8:09:36 GMT
I’m no expert on these trade rules but the final item in that article suggests the assertion made by the headline and, indeed, the main thrust of the article, may be somewhat disingenuous... “But some lawyers also stressed that the subsidy rules in the Japan bilateral deal were still weak compared with the detailed and invasive EU state aid regime. James Webber, a partner at the law firm Shearman & Sterling, said: “It’s a concession of sorts by the UK, but if this is where the negotiations end up, it will be much closer to the UK’s view of the world than the EU’s.” That final assessment seems about right to me on the basis that my impression is there is no trading entity anywhere in the world with more stringent state aid rules than the EU - in part to the fact that it is setting rules for so many member nations. I guess this is consistent with the approach of the FT which has generally been a harbinger of doom as relates to Brexit. Something that the likes of Tony Benn and Peter Shore if they were still around would probably not be too surprised about. Hardly surprising that someone called 'Brexit Bin' has chosen to ignore that part of the article really 🤔
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 23, 2020 12:22:05 GMT
Brexit in numbers 19 - months since the UK was originally scheduled to leave the EU under Article 50 12 - months Bluffer has been going on about his oven-ready deal 0 - number of deals Bluffer now tells us to prepare for You forgot approx 16 million whinging remainers I know brexiters are the thick ones but why do remainers keep trying to link the oven ready comment which was about the WA to actually brexit to the future trade agreement which has not yet been agreed ?
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 23, 2020 12:23:29 GMT
You forgot approx 16 million whinging remainers I know brexiters are the thick ones but why do remainers keep trying to link the oven ready comment which was about the WA to actually brexit to the future trade agreement which has not yet been agreed ? Because it suits there negative agenda
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 23, 2020 13:55:50 GMT
Contempt for the British people ( By the Tory government.....actually trying to mislead the British people.....Labour could have made alot of this.....except they probably agreed with it)
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Oct 23, 2020 14:46:27 GMT
I know brexiters are the thick ones but why do remainers keep trying to link the oven ready comment which was about the WA to actually brexit to the future trade agreement which has not yet been agreed ? Because it suits there negative agenda I’ve fact checked your disingenuous right wing claptrap! The WA and Political Declaration were held aloft by Boris claiming an oven ready deal as the PD maps out the road to a trade deal! Of course, it was Boris who unilaterally ditched part of the WA he himself had voted for in parliament! The facts speak for themselves we’ll let the right wingers spin their own concoction of sell-outs, BRINOs, Remoaner subversion etc. etc..
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 23, 2020 14:52:00 GMT
Because it suits there negative agenda I’ve fact checked your disingenuous right wing claptrap! The WA and Political Declaration were held aloft by Boris claiming an oven ready deal as the PD maps out the road to a trade deal! Of course, it was Boris who unilaterally ditched part of the WA he himself had voted for in parliament! The facts speak for themselves we’ll let the right wingers spin their own concoction of sell-outs, BRINOs, Remoaner subversion etc. etc.. Couldn’t give a flying fuck for a WA agreement or a political agreement we should leave on WTO terms
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Oct 23, 2020 15:02:34 GMT
I’ve fact checked your disingenuous right wing claptrap! The WA and Political Declaration were held aloft by Boris claiming an oven ready deal as the PD maps out the road to a trade deal! Of course, it was Boris who unilaterally ditched part of the WA he himself had voted for in parliament! The facts speak for themselves we’ll let the right wingers spin their own concoction of sell-outs, BRINOs, Remoaner subversion etc. etc.. Couldn’t give a flying fuck for a WA agreement or a political agreement we should leave on WTO terms Apparently, France is being less rigid on fishing quotas so we can expect a trade deal and we won’t be leaving on WTO terms? This was always the most likely outcome after a million of British civil servant man hours engaged directly in the negotiations?! And these were often senior civil servants on premium rates of pay too!
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 23, 2020 15:48:59 GMT
Because it suits there negative agenda I’ve fact checked your disingenuous right wing claptrap! The WA and Political Declaration were held aloft by Boris claiming an oven ready deal as the PD maps out the road to a trade deal! Of course, it was Boris who unilaterally ditched part of the WA he himself had voted for in parliament! The facts speak for themselves we’ll let the right wingers spin their own concoction of sell-outs, BRINOs, Remoaner subversion etc. etc.. Don't fact check, Nicholas! It's all about what 'feels right' apparently, and if it 'feels right', it doesn't matter if awkward things like facts get in the way...
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 23, 2020 15:58:20 GMT
I’ve fact checked your disingenuous right wing claptrap! The WA and Political Declaration were held aloft by Boris claiming an oven ready deal as the PD maps out the road to a trade deal! Of course, it was Boris who unilaterally ditched part of the WA he himself had voted for in parliament! The facts speak for themselves we’ll let the right wingers spin their own concoction of sell-outs, BRINOs, Remoaner subversion etc. etc.. Don't fact check, Nicholas! It's all about what 'feels right' apparently, and if it 'feels right', it doesn't matter if awkward things like facts get in the way... I don't think that's true Red. I think it's important to get the facts right.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Oct 23, 2020 16:21:00 GMT
Brexit in numbers 19 - months since the UK was originally scheduled to leave the EU under Article 50 12 - months Bluffer has been going on about his oven-ready deal 0 - number of deals Bluffer now tells us to prepare for You forgot approx 16 million whinging remainers Of course if the Trade deal is done you will just concede that that is the Brexit you voted for , happily accept all its compromises and will not whinge in any way.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 23, 2020 16:28:56 GMT
Don't fact check, Nicholas! It's all about what 'feels right' apparently, and if it 'feels right', it doesn't matter if awkward things like facts get in the way... I don't think that's true Red. I think it's important to get the facts right. Indeed so, John. Like Leonardo's ear
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 23, 2020 16:33:53 GMT
Couldn’t give a flying fuck for a WA agreement or a political agreement we should leave on WTO terms Apparently, France is being less rigid on fishing quotas so we can expect a trade deal and we won’t be leaving on WTO terms? This was always the most likely outcome after a million of British civil servant man hours engaged directly in the negotiations?! And these were often senior civil servants on premium rates of pay too! A deal is good news if it happens, less damaging to both the UK and the EU, the details will be interesting, as will the reactions of the more fervent Brexiteers to see if they feel betrayed...
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 23, 2020 16:43:24 GMT
I don't think that's true Red. I think it's important to get the facts right. Indeed so, John. Like Leonardo's ear Exactly
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 23, 2020 17:12:47 GMT
You forgot approx 16 million whinging remainers Of course if the Trade deal is done you will just concede that that is the Brexit you voted for , happily accept all its compromises and will not whinge in any way. No I shan’t whinge I shall just adjust my vote at the next election
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 24, 2020 16:55:46 GMT
Piece of news which flew under the radar in the last couple of days...
Net migration targets have been abandoned by the government after it ditched the £35,800 salary cap.
Instead the cap will be lowered to £25,600.
Unskilled migrants earning just £20,480 will also be allowed to settle in Britain and become citizens.
Critics claimed the changes had been sneaked in without consultation.
I wonder if those Brexiteers who had reducing immigration as one of the main drivers for voting Leave (and it was the main reason at the time, regardless of the revisionism we've seen since) are feeling a little 'played'. Unlikely, I suppose. Despite it being such a massive vote winner at the time, no-one ever mentions immigration these days. Funny how it's gone from being so critically important to 'meh' in four years!
Let's hope any imminent deal doesn't equally water down sovereignty in the same way!
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 24, 2020 17:28:19 GMT
Piece of news which flew under the radar in the last couple of days... Net migration targets have been abandoned by the government after it ditched the £35,800 salary cap. Instead the cap will be lowered to £25,600. Unskilled migrants earning just £20,480 will also be allowed to settle in Britain and become citizens. Critics claimed the changes had been sneaked in without consultation. I wonder if those Brexiteers who had reducing immigration as one of the main drivers for voting Leave (and it was the main reason at the time, regardless of the revisionism we've seen since) are feeling a little 'played'. Unlikely, I suppose. Despite it being such a massive vote winner at the time, no-one ever mentions immigration these days. Funny how it's gone from being so critically important to 'meh' in four years! Let's hope any imminent deal doesn't equally water down sovereignty in the same way! You completely miss the point don't you? Now we have left the EU it is a UK government that will decide who will, in your own words, " be allowed to settle". No longer do EU citizens have the right to settle. The heat went out of the immigration issue after the pre referendum campaign by remainers that there would economic downturn if the people voted to leave. The reality was employment continued to rise to record levels and unemployment the lowest for c40 years pre-pandemic. Many people now realise we need immigrants to fill certain jobs. Personally I have never had problems with controlled immigration, allowing people to come that we need. We are all immigrants if you go back far enough. (I have a "few" words for you on sovereignty and other Brexit issues shortly, that I am working on.)
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 24, 2020 17:36:35 GMT
Piece of news which flew under the radar in the last couple of days... Net migration targets have been abandoned by the government after it ditched the £35,800 salary cap. Instead the cap will be lowered to £25,600. Unskilled migrants earning just £20,480 will also be allowed to settle in Britain and become citizens. Critics claimed the changes had been sneaked in without consultation. I wonder if those Brexiteers who had reducing immigration as one of the main drivers for voting Leave (and it was the main reason at the time, regardless of the revisionism we've seen since) are feeling a little 'played'. Unlikely, I suppose. Despite it being such a massive vote winner at the time, no-one ever mentions immigration these days. Funny how it's gone from being so critically important to 'meh' in four years! Let's hope any imminent deal doesn't equally water down sovereignty in the same way! Good job I reckon they should drop the salary cap to £15,000 for certain rolls certainly around the care sector There never has been anything wrong with people wanting to come to this country to work and add to society
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 24, 2020 18:59:26 GMT
Piece of news which flew under the radar in the last couple of days... Net migration targets have been abandoned by the government after it ditched the £35,800 salary cap. Instead the cap will be lowered to £25,600. Unskilled migrants earning just £20,480 will also be allowed to settle in Britain and become citizens. Critics claimed the changes had been sneaked in without consultation. I wonder if those Brexiteers who had reducing immigration as one of the main drivers for voting Leave (and it was the main reason at the time, regardless of the revisionism we've seen since) are feeling a little 'played'. Unlikely, I suppose. Despite it being such a massive vote winner at the time, no-one ever mentions immigration these days. Funny how it's gone from being so critically important to 'meh' in four years! Let's hope any imminent deal doesn't equally water down sovereignty in the same way! Good job I reckon they should drop the salary cap to £15,000 for certain rolls certainly around the care sector There never has been anything wrong with people wanting to come to this country to work and add to society I couldn't agree more, waga. Funny how much the subject was used to produce a Leave majority at the time though, isn't it. Yet, just a few years later, we're back to no-one really giving a shit anymore. Brexit in microcosm essentially!
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 24, 2020 19:04:31 GMT
Good job I reckon they should drop the salary cap to £15,000 for certain rolls certainly around the care sector There never has been anything wrong with people wanting to come to this country to work and add to society I couldn't agree more, waga. Funny how much the subject was used to produce a Leave majority at the time though, isn't it. Yet, just a few years later, we're back to no-one really giving a shit anymore. Brexit in microcosm essentially! You seem to give a shit Red. It seems to have got right under your skin, more than anyone that I am aware of.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 24, 2020 19:06:32 GMT
I couldn't agree more, waga. Funny how much the subject was used to produce a Leave majority at the time though, isn't it. Yet, just a few years later, we're back to no-one really giving a shit anymore. Brexit in microcosm essentially! You seem to give a shit Red. It seems to have got right under your skin, more than anyone that I am aware of. Nice to see you're back in the mood for discussing Brexit on the Brexit thread, John! I'm certainly interested to see if all things that mattered so much to Brexiteers back then are still so important. Seems reasonable. Immigration certainly seems not to be. Odd that. Personally, like waga, I'm pleased that the rather unsavoury focus on immigrants that helped to produce a Leave majority appears to no longer be such an issue. But it does make you wonder why it was such a vote winner at the time...almost like a large swathe of the population was played.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 24, 2020 19:24:55 GMT
You seem to give a shit Red. It seems to have got right under your skin, more than anyone that I am aware of. Nice to see you're back in the mood for discussing Brexit on the Brexit thread, John! I'm certainly interested to see if all things that mattered so much to Brexiteers back then are still so important. Seems reasonable. Immigration certainly seems not to be. Odd that. Personally, like waga, I'm pleased that the rather unsavoury focus on immigrants that helped to produce a Leave majority appears to no longer be such an issue. But it does make you wonder why it was such a vote winner at the time...almost like a large swathe of the population was played. As I say , Brexit really seems to have got to you, seeing as how you say that hardly anybody gives a shit. Oh, I'm extremely interested in the relevant issues around Brexit, just not really your agenda....I think you brought something up about Stoniers, Turners and PMT buses....or something to do with buses.
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 24, 2020 19:30:35 GMT
Good job I reckon they should drop the salary cap to £15,000 for certain rolls certainly around the care sector There never has been anything wrong with people wanting to come to this country to work and add to society I couldn't agree more, waga. Funny how much the subject was used to produce a Leave majority at the time though, isn't it. Yet, just a few years later, we're back to no-one really giving a shit anymore. Brexit in microcosm essentially! I have always been in favour of immigration it has brought about so much good to the country Though not over found of those Scandinavian French fellows that turned up in the mid ten hundreds
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