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Post by RedandWhite90 on Oct 19, 2020 20:58:33 GMT
Always powerful to use interviews from 30 years ago to argue a point for the present...
Still, even now despite all the lies unravelling themselves over and over the slavish devotion to this catastrophic decision still shines through.
Borders, lorry parks, tariffs, trade, deals, travel freedoms, immigration all of which we will regress in is unfolding before your eyes and so it is true that in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
At least we will always have the Cote D'Ivoire.
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Oct 19, 2020 21:00:41 GMT
And Peter Shore died nineteen years ago too!
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 19, 2020 21:12:04 GMT
A blast from the past The comments on the video make interesting reading for Labour......perhaps not. Is this a remake of ‘All Our Yesterday’s’? When do we get to see Spitfires taking off from Biggin Hill? I thought we were doing links to the past, looking at previous posts. Mind you Shore was prophetic...in fact what he said is even more relevant...from days when Labour were relevant Labour could learn a lot from the issues....still the same.....mind you , seems like they are destined never to learn. I suppose Corbynism is irrelevant though.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 19, 2020 21:14:49 GMT
Always powerful to use interviews from 30 years ago to argue a point for the present... Still, even now despite all the lies unravelling themselves over and over the slavish devotion to this catastrophic decision still shines through. Borders, lorry parks, tariffs, trade, deals, travel freedoms, immigration all of which we will regress in is unfolding before your eyes and so it is true that in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. At least we will always have the Cote D'Ivoire. Hey up, here's another one.
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Oct 19, 2020 21:16:49 GMT
Always powerful to use interviews from 30 years ago to argue a point for the present... Still, even now despite all the lies unravelling themselves over and over the slavish devotion to this catastrophic decision still shines through. Borders, lorry parks, tariffs, trade, deals, travel freedoms, immigration all of which we will regress in is unfolding before your eyes and so it is true that in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. At least we will always have the Cote D'Ivoire. Hey up, here's another one. Anything that gets you through it BJR. I'm pretty sure you posted these the last time a bunch of lies were exposed too. But we all have different coping mechanisms.
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Oct 19, 2020 21:19:58 GMT
Always powerful to use interviews from 30 years ago to argue a point for the present... Still, even now despite all the lies unravelling themselves over and over the slavish devotion to this catastrophic decision still shines through. Borders, lorry parks, tariffs, trade, deals, travel freedoms, immigration all of which we will regress in is unfolding before your eyes and so it is true that in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. At least we will always have the Cote D'Ivoire. Hey up, here's another one. How far are we going back in time? Julius Caesar was quite keen on us joining Europe! But they did have a single currency and a European Army too so that would get you riled up? Not sure if Julius ever joined the Labour Party though?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 19, 2020 21:20:56 GMT
Hey up, here's another one. Anything that gets you through it BJR. I'm pretty sure you posted these the last time a bunch of lies were exposed too. But we all have different coping mechanisms. Not about me. I don't think this Labour grandee was lying, do you?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 19, 2020 21:25:22 GMT
Hey up, here's another one. How far are we going back in time? Julius Caesar was quite keen on us joining Europe! But they did have a single currency and a European Army too so that would get you riled up? Not sure if Julius ever joined the Labour Party though? January 1, 1973 But I believe that you can post anything you want Nick, within the rules.
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Post by thevoid on Oct 19, 2020 21:34:15 GMT
If people had a vote and didn't use it (out of an arrogant belief that Remain would win), tough titties. Anyway, have you decided on how often you would like your referenda, Nicko? 😆 Unlike you I don’t set down nonsensical rules. The issue is settled for a generation. A generation is generally accepted to be 25 years. However, if Brexit goes well the electorate may well decide not to bother? That will be their prerogative as I will be certainly dead then. Probably a significant proportion of the 2016 electorate will have died too. I don’t think this is a difficult concept to grasp? What rules have I set Nicko? You're the one who wants a referendum after every episode of Corrie 😆
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 19, 2020 22:05:02 GMT
Whichever side of the argument you are on....its hard to dislike Gisela Stuart, a genuine, straightforward, upstanding MP.
What she says from 10 minutes to the end throws some light on the decision to Brexit....an inevitable consequence of Maastricht, the single currency and freedom of movement.....to which the UK could never agree and therefore could never be an enthusiastic member of the EU....we never have been.
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Oct 20, 2020 7:02:27 GMT
Unlike you I don’t set down nonsensical rules. The issue is settled for a generation. A generation is generally accepted to be 25 years. However, if Brexit goes well the electorate may well decide not to bother? That will be their prerogative as I will be certainly dead then. Probably a significant proportion of the 2016 electorate will have died too. I don’t think this is a difficult concept to grasp? What rules have I set Nicko? You're the one who wants a referendum after every episode of Corrie 😆 I haven’t watched Corrie for donkey’s years? I think the timescale of 2016+25 = 2041 is about right providing the electorate at that time deems it desirable? What is difficult to understand?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 20, 2020 7:17:10 GMT
Always powerful to use interviews from 30 years ago to argue a point for the present... Still, even now despite all the lies unravelling themselves over and over the slavish devotion to this catastrophic decision still shines through. Borders, lorry parks, tariffs, trade, deals, travel freedoms, immigration all of which we will regress in is unfolding before your eyes and so it is true that in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. At least we will always have the Cote D'Ivoire. Indeed! Brexiteers tell you to just "let it go" if you dare to point out any of the lies and broken promises unravelling made at any time since it all kicked off in 2016. However, it's apparently fine to drag up Youtube clips of decades old interviews! I love the smell of double standards in the morning!
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Post by partickpotter on Oct 20, 2020 7:20:54 GMT
Always powerful to use interviews from 30 years ago to argue a point for the present... Still, even now despite all the lies unravelling themselves over and over the slavish devotion to this catastrophic decision still shines through. Borders, lorry parks, tariffs, trade, deals, travel freedoms, immigration all of which we will regress in is unfolding before your eyes and so it is true that in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. At least we will always have the Cote D'Ivoire. Indeed! Brexiteers tell you to just "let it go" if you dare to point out any of the lies and broken promises unravelling made at any time since it all kicked off in 2016. However, it's apparently fine to drag up Youtube clips of decades old interviews! I love the smell of double standards in the morning! Which Brexiteer has been urging you to “Let it go”?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 20, 2020 7:32:04 GMT
Is this a remake of ‘All Our Yesterday’s’? When do we get to see Spitfires taking off from Biggin Hill? I thought we were doing links to the past, looking at previous posts. Mind you Shore was prophetic...in fact what he said is even more relevant...from days when Labour were relevant Labour could learn a lot from the issues....still the same.....mind you , seems like they are destined never to learn. I suppose Corbynism is irrelevant though. Well, I must say BJR has surprised me! Given that everything is always the fault of the Left in his eyes, I'm amazed that he considers Peter Shore as such a touchstone from the days "when Labour were relevant and [the current lot] could learn a lot". Peter Shore was in government during the Seventies, Shadow Chancellor in the early Eighties, and put his name to the manifesto often described as the longest electoral suicide note in history in 1983. Seems like the last Labour administration didn't actually learn all that much at all from those times...but as long as you manage to chuck in a few vague and ramblingly incoherent digs at "the Left" in general, same old same old, eh! But since you brought up Peter Shore, again, I notice you didn't mention his desire to see a two-speed EU, with actual political union as the aim for those at the centre... (Hopefully, not too personal and not all about you, John. Just a response to what you posted!)
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 20, 2020 7:33:13 GMT
Indeed! Brexiteers tell you to just "let it go" if you dare to point out any of the lies and broken promises unravelling made at any time since it all kicked off in 2016. However, it's apparently fine to drag up Youtube clips of decades old interviews! I love the smell of double standards in the morning! Which Brexiteer has been urging you to “Let it go”? Good answer!
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Post by partickpotter on Oct 20, 2020 7:41:26 GMT
Ever since Britain went rogue and did the unthinkable and decided to leave the EU, it seems to me the EU hierarchy has seen it as their role to be as unhelpful and difficult as they can be. For a brief while, thanks to the likes of Starmer and Theresa May’s ineptitude, Brexit might even be reversed. Johnson’s arrival stymied that so they have reverted to their original position. This article neatly sums up their recent positioning in that regard, www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-boris-should-reject-this-brexit-dealAgainst such tactics Johnson is quite correct in saying we will leave with No Deal. There will no doubt be difficulties (although not as large or as many as Remoaners will whine about). The critical thing though is it is at least a solid foundation which a bad deal would not provide. There may be a few twists and turns to come, but I am reconciled to a no deal departure. Time to move forward.
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Post by partickpotter on Oct 20, 2020 7:44:47 GMT
Which Brexiteer has been urging you to “Let it go”? Good answer! Well it is rather. Because, of course, it is a Remainer (this Remainer!) who has been urging Remoaners to let it go. A forlorn hope I know. But it’s a useful riposte to the tedious bleating of Remoaners.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 20, 2020 7:49:12 GMT
Well it is rather. Because, of course, it is a Remainer (this Remainer!) who has been urging Remoaners to let it go. A forlorn hope I know. But it’s a useful riposte to the tedious bleating of Remoaners. Yes, that was the rather obvious point. However, there are more than enough Brexiteers doing just the same!
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 20, 2020 8:23:50 GMT
Ever since Britain went rogue and did the unthinkable and decided to leave the EU, it seems to me the EU hierarchy has seen it as their role to be as unhelpful and difficult as they can be. For a brief while, thanks to the likes of Starmer and Theresa May’s ineptitude, Brexit might even be reversed. Johnson’s arrival stymied that so they have reverted to their original position. This article neatly sums up their recent positioning in that regard, www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-boris-should-reject-this-brexit-dealAgainst such tactics Johnson is quite correct in saying we will leave with No Deal. There will no doubt be difficulties (although not as large or as many as Remoaners will whine about). The critical thing though is it is at least a solid foundation which a bad deal would not provide. There may be a few twists and turns to come, but I am reconciled to a no deal departure. Time to move forward. Time to move backwards is probably more accurate.
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Post by partickpotter on Oct 20, 2020 8:26:22 GMT
Ever since Britain went rogue and did the unthinkable and decided to leave the EU, it seems to me the EU hierarchy has seen it as their role to be as unhelpful and difficult as they can be. For a brief while, thanks to the likes of Starmer and Theresa May’s ineptitude, Brexit might even be reversed. Johnson’s arrival stymied that so they have reverted to their original position. This article neatly sums up their recent positioning in that regard, www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-boris-should-reject-this-brexit-dealAgainst such tactics Johnson is quite correct in saying we will leave with No Deal. There will no doubt be difficulties (although not as large or as many as Remoaners will whine about). The critical thing though is it is at least a solid foundation which a bad deal would not provide. There may be a few twists and turns to come, but I am reconciled to a no deal departure. Time to move forward. Time to move backwards is probably more accurate. A Remoaner would quite likely see it that way.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 20, 2020 8:30:07 GMT
Time to move backwards is probably more accurate. A Remoaner would quite likely see it that way. We'll soon start to find out...
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 20, 2020 8:32:59 GMT
I thought we were doing links to the past, looking at previous posts. Mind you Shore was prophetic...in fact what he said is even more relevant...from days when Labour were relevant Labour could learn a lot from the issues....still the same.....mind you , seems like they are destined never to learn. I suppose Corbynism is irrelevant though. Well, I must say BJR has surprised me! Given that everything is always the fault of the Left in his eyes, I'm amazed that he considers Peter Shore as such a touchstone from the days "when Labour were relevant and [the current lot] could learn a lot". Peter Shore was in government during the Seventies, Shadow Chancellor in the early Eighties, and put his name to the manifesto often described as the longest electoral suicide note in history in 1983. Seems like the last Labour administration didn't actually learn all that much at all from those times...but as long as you manage to chuck in a few vague and ramblingly incoherent digs at "the Left" in general, same old same old, eh! But since you brought up Peter Shore, again, I notice you didn't mention his desire to see a two-speed EU, with actual political union as the aim for those at the centre... (Hopefully, not too personal and not all about you, John. Just a response to what you posted!) Shore was clear in his position on the EU and Labour indeed could learn much from him but probably won't. In 1983 the EU wasn't a particularly live topic ( as far as I am aware) , so Shore had to deal with things as he/the Labour party saw fit at the time. But of course we can and should move on.....let's hope for the best for the UK now that we have left the EU, and perhaps don't hope that predictions of doom come true.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 20, 2020 8:44:50 GMT
Well, I must say BJR has surprised me! Given that everything is always the fault of the Left in his eyes, I'm amazed that he considers Peter Shore as such a touchstone from the days "when Labour were relevant and [the current lot] could learn a lot". Peter Shore was in government during the Seventies, Shadow Chancellor in the early Eighties, and put his name to the manifesto often described as the longest electoral suicide note in history in 1983. Seems like the last Labour administration didn't actually learn all that much at all from those times...but as long as you manage to chuck in a few vague and ramblingly incoherent digs at "the Left" in general, same old same old, eh! But since you brought up Peter Shore, again, I notice you didn't mention his desire to see a two-speed EU, with actual political union as the aim for those at the centre... (Hopefully, not too personal and not all about you, John. Just a response to what you posted!) Shore was clear in his position on the EU and Labour indeed could learn much from him but probably won't. In 1983 the EU wasn't a particularly live topic ( as far as I am aware) , so Shore had to deal with things as he/the Labour party saw fit at the time. But of course we can and should move on.....let's hope for the best for the UK now that we have left the EU, and perhaps don't hope that predictions of doom come true. He was clear on Europe, you're right, he believed in political union at the heart of Europe in his last book on it not long before he died. Perhaps his position changed from those decades old clips you were referencing? Labour general election result 1983, 27.6%; 269 seats Labour general election result 2019, 32.1%; 262 seats. I don't think the most recent incarnation of Labour did learn all that much from when he was last in Cabinet really, by the looks of those results.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 20, 2020 8:53:03 GMT
Shore was clear in his position on the EU and Labour indeed could learn much from him but probably won't. In 1983 the EU wasn't a particularly live topic ( as far as I am aware) , so Shore had to deal with things as he/the Labour party saw fit at the time. But of course we can and should move on.....let's hope for the best for the UK now that we have left the EU, and perhaps don't hope that predictions of doom come true. He was clear on Europe, you're right, he believed in political union at the heart of Europe in his last book on it not long before he died. Perhaps his position changed from those decades old clips you were referencing? Labour general election result 1983, 27.6%; 269 seats Labour general election result 2019, 32.1%; 262 seats. I don't think the most recent incarnation of Labour did learn all that much from when he was last in Cabinet really, by the looks of those results. Not with the UK as part of it....as far as I am aware...if you know differently, please quote him. His stance on Europe had little to do with those results. I'm glad that we are now going to look forward and not backwards to the 2016 referendum result though
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 20, 2020 9:09:11 GMT
He was clear on Europe, you're right, he believed in political union at the heart of Europe in his last book on it not long before he died. Perhaps his position changed from those decades old clips you were referencing? Labour general election result 1983, 27.6%; 269 seats Labour general election result 2019, 32.1%; 262 seats. I don't think the most recent incarnation of Labour did learn all that much from when he was last in Cabinet really, by the looks of those results. Not with the UK as part of it....as far as I am aware...if you know differently, please quote him. His stance on Europe had little to do with those results. I'm glad that we are now going to look forward and not backwards to the 2016 referendum result though Well, you brought Shore up in the first place! Secondly, you also said Labour could learn a lot from him. I doubt that, given his influence in returning the smallest number of seats for Labour at a post war general election, back in 83. In one obituary it said Shore had now become a right-wing figure, cluckingly approved of by Conservatives, but probably still not quite Euro-sceptic enough even for them?
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Post by partickpotter on Oct 20, 2020 9:34:05 GMT
Not with the UK as part of it....as far as I am aware...if you know differently, please quote him. His stance on Europe had little to do with those results. I'm glad that we are now going to look forward and not backwards to the 2016 referendum result though Well, you brought Shore up in the first place! Secondly, you also said Labour could learn a lot from him. I doubt that, given his influence in returning the smallest number of seats for Labour at a post war general election, back in 83. In one obituary it said Shore had now become a right-wing figure, cluckingly approved of by Conservatives, but probably still not quite Euro-sceptic enough even for them? I think you’ll find the subject of Europe in 1983 was a little overshadowed in terms of international considerations by a certain little matter in the South Atlantic. Oh... and not forgetting Michael Foot’s donkey jacket and walking stick. Peter Shore’s thoughts on Europe I suspect didn’t influence the result very much.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 20, 2020 9:48:41 GMT
Not with the UK as part of it....as far as I am aware...if you know differently, please quote him. His stance on Europe had little to do with those results. I'm glad that we are now going to look forward and not backwards to the 2016 referendum result though Well, you brought Shore up in the first place! Secondly, you also said Labour could learn a lot from him. I doubt that, given his influence in returning the smallest number of seats for Labour at a post war general election, back in 83. In one obituary it said Shore had now become a right-wing figure, cluckingly approved of by Conservatives, but probably still not quite Euro-sceptic enough even for them? So no evidence whatsoever of Shore's change of mind....par for the course. There is evidence of Corbyn's mind, to bring it up to more recent events....Or did he really change his mind? At least we agree that we don't need to keep harping back to 2016 and the referendum...now that we have left.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 20, 2020 9:57:29 GMT
Not with the UK as part of it....as far as I am aware...if you know differently, please quote him. His stance on Europe had little to do with those results. I'm glad that we are now going to look forward and not backwards to the 2016 referendum result though Well, you brought Shore up in the first place! Secondly, you also said Labour could learn a lot from him. I doubt that, given his influence in returning the smallest number of seats for Labour at a post war general election, back in 83. In one obituary it said Shore had now become a right-wing figure, cluckingly approved of by Conservatives, but probably still not quite Euro-sceptic enough even for them? I'm pleased that you mentioned obituaries....Here's one for your perusal..... Over to you "In October 1969, unwilling, as always, to let down a colleague, he [Wilson] made Shore Minister without Portfolio. One of his main considerations was Shore's unremitting hostility to the EEC. "Between Harold Wilson and Tony Blair, Peter Shore was the only possible Labour Party leader of whom a Conservative leader had cause to walk in fear. His party, alas for them and for him, never appreciated that fact." " Shore remained, to the end of his life, the most ferocious of patriots, thus testifying to an underlying nationalism in Labour politics. The Conservative Party likes to lay claim to the title of the patriotic party. When my wife first met Shore, and found him an embedded nationalist, she asked me: "Why isn't he one of us?" I explained – I hope successfully – how deeply ran the nationalist belief in the old Labour Party. From 1966 Shore came to exemplify it so effectively that he was the only possible Labour leader whom I, as a Tory, feared." "With the possible exception of Ian Mikardo, no Labour politician, in my experience, of the Fifties, Sixties or Seventies matched Peter Shore as a drafter of a policy document, writes Tam Dalyell. Shore was rigorous and conceptually very clever. At Cambridge, he had been a member of the "Apostles", the élite Cambridge intellectual society." www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/lord-shore-stepney-9204257.html
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 20, 2020 10:31:49 GMT
Well, you brought Shore up in the first place! Secondly, you also said Labour could learn a lot from him. I doubt that, given his influence in returning the smallest number of seats for Labour at a post war general election, back in 83. In one obituary it said Shore had now become a right-wing figure, cluckingly approved of by Conservatives, but probably still not quite Euro-sceptic enough even for them? I think you’ll find the subject of Europe in 1983 was a little overshadowed in terms of international considerations by a certain little matter in the South Atlantic. Oh... and not forgetting Michael Foot’s donkey jacket and walking stick. Peter Shore’s thoughts on Europe I suspect didn’t influence the result very much. The Falklands certainly helped to re-elect Thatcher, that's for sure. It is amazing how much a 'good war' will improve your popularity in this country and help to gloss over lots of other stuff, and vice versa for a 'bad war', see Churchill and Blair as further good examples. Thatcher had 16% approval ratings in March 1981, 59% in June 1982. Similarly, Bluffer's approval ratings went up when he made himself ill. It's quite odd really. I get that, in the case of the Bluffer, sympathy is very nice, but I'm not quite sure why that'd suddenly make you think he's doing a better job politically! But getting back to the point, I'm not sure one of the architects of one of Labour's worst electoral results in modern history has a lot to provide for the current aspirants. Seems to me that Corbyn's Labour were much more closely aligned politically to Michael Foot's Labour, of which Shore was an integral part as Shadow Chancellor. It took a shift to the right to make Labour electable again after Foot's defeat, as it may well do this time around. If there are any lessons to be learned from Shore, Foot and Corbyn, it's probably those.
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Post by thevoid on Oct 20, 2020 10:54:44 GMT
What rules have I set Nicko? You're the one who wants a referendum after every episode of Corrie 😆 I haven’t watched Corrie for donkey’s years? I think the timescale of 2016+25 = 2041 is about right providing the electorate at that time deems it desirable? What is difficult to understand? I think you're the one struggling to understand Nicko 😆 Did I not say the other day that the Scots/Welsh Devo referenda were 18 years apart and that we should allow a few years to see how Brexit pans out? You're the one clamouring for a re-run barely four years after the first. You're contradicting yourself.
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