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Post by nicholasjalcock on Oct 20, 2020 11:02:14 GMT
I haven’t watched Corrie for donkey’s years? I think the timescale of 2016+25 = 2041 is about right providing the electorate at that time deems it desirable? What is difficult to understand? I think you're the one struggling to understand Nicko 😆 Did I not say the other day that the Scots/Welsh Devo referenda were 18 years apart and that we should allow a few years to see how Brexit pans out? You're the one clamouring for a re-run barely four years after the first. You're contradicting yourself. There were millions clamouring for a referendum not just me? That didn’t mean a re-run of the original referendum but a vote on a deal! It’s only you believers in parliamentary sovereignty who believe in anti democratic tactics like proroguing parliamentary illegally? Your lot aren’t democrats but fascists masquerading as democrats!
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Post by thevoid on Oct 20, 2020 11:10:57 GMT
I think you're the one struggling to understand Nicko 😆 Did I not say the other day that the Scots/Welsh Devo referenda were 18 years apart and that we should allow a few years to see how Brexit pans out? You're the one clamouring for a re-run barely four years after the first. You're contradicting yourself. There were millions clamouring for a referendum not just me? That didn’t mean a re-run of the original referendum but a vote on a deal! It’s only you believers in parliamentary sovereignty who believe in anti democratic tactics like proroguing parliamentary illegally? Your lot aren’t democrats but fascists masquerading as democrats! Who are 'my lot' Nicko? Who are you calling fascists please, that's quite a strong term? If I don't get a coherent response, I may have to nip this in the bud.
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 20, 2020 11:13:31 GMT
I think you're the one struggling to understand Nicko 😆 Did I not say the other day that the Scots/Welsh Devo referenda were 18 years apart and that we should allow a few years to see how Brexit pans out? You're the one clamouring for a re-run barely four years after the first. You're contradicting yourself. There were millions clamouring for a referendum not just me? That didn’t mean a re-run of the original referendum but a vote on a deal! It’s only you believers in parliamentary sovereignty who believe in anti democratic tactics like proroguing parliamentary illegally? Your lot aren’t democrats but fascists masquerading as democrats! 😁
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 20, 2020 11:15:14 GMT
I think you’ll find the subject of Europe in 1983 was a little overshadowed in terms of international considerations by a certain little matter in the South Atlantic. Oh... and not forgetting Michael Foot’s donkey jacket and walking stick. Peter Shore’s thoughts on Europe I suspect didn’t influence the result very much. The Falklands certainly helped to re-elect Thatcher, that's for sure. It is amazing how much a 'good war' will improve your popularity in this country and help to gloss over lots of other stuff, and vice versa for a 'bad war', see Churchill and Blair as further good examples. Thatcher had 16% approval ratings in March 1981, 59% in June 1982. Similarly, Bluffer's approval ratings went up when he made himself ill. It's quite odd really. I get that, in the case of the Bluffer, sympathy is very nice, but I'm not quite sure why that'd suddenly make you think he's doing a better job politically! But getting back to the point, I'm not sure one of the architects of one of Labour's worst electoral results in modern history has a lot to provide for the current aspirants. Seems to me that Corbyn's Labour were much more closely aligned politically to Michael Foot's Labour, of which Shore was an integral part as Shadow Chancellor. It took a shift to the right to make Labour electable again after Foot's defeat, as it may well do this time around. If there are any lessons to be learned from Shore, Foot and Corbyn, it's probably those. And When Labour returned to power in February 1974 he became Secretary of State for Trade – but only on the strict understanding that he could speak his own mind in the course of the promised referendum campaign on British membership of the European Community. I worked closely with him in the course of that campaign; and there was no kinder, nor warmer, colleague except, perhaps, Neil Marten.
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Post by thevoid on Oct 20, 2020 11:16:05 GMT
There were millions clamouring for a referendum not just me? That didn’t mean a re-run of the original referendum but a vote on a deal! It’s only you believers in parliamentary sovereignty who believe in anti democratic tactics like proroguing parliamentary illegally? Your lot aren’t democrats but fascists masquerading as democrats! 😁 Do you reckon if rednwhitenblah and essexstokie had a love child, it would be Nicko? He definitely carries traits of both 😆
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Oct 20, 2020 11:23:49 GMT
Do you reckon if rednwhitenblah and essexstokie had a love child, it would be Nicko? He definitely carries traits of both 😆 As I’m 65 I very much doubt I’m rwb’s and es’s love child? Though my guess is that you could be one of Bluffer’s wrong side of the blanket’s efforts?🙄
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 20, 2020 11:27:55 GMT
The Falklands certainly helped to re-elect Thatcher, that's for sure. It is amazing how much a 'good war' will improve your popularity in this country and help to gloss over lots of other stuff, and vice versa for a 'bad war', see Churchill and Blair as further good examples. Thatcher had 16% approval ratings in March 1981, 59% in June 1982. Similarly, Bluffer's approval ratings went up when he made himself ill. It's quite odd really. I get that, in the case of the Bluffer, sympathy is very nice, but I'm not quite sure why that'd suddenly make you think he's doing a better job politically! But getting back to the point, I'm not sure one of the architects of one of Labour's worst electoral results in modern history has a lot to provide for the current aspirants. Seems to me that Corbyn's Labour were much more closely aligned politically to Michael Foot's Labour, of which Shore was an integral part as Shadow Chancellor. It took a shift to the right to make Labour electable again after Foot's defeat, as it may well do this time around. If there are any lessons to be learned from Shore, Foot and Corbyn, it's probably those. And When Labour returned to power in February 1974 he became Secretary of State for Trade – but only on the strict understanding that he could speak his own mind in the course of the promised referendum campaign on British membership of the European Community. I worked closely with him in the course of that campaign; and there was no kinder, nor warmer, colleague except, perhaps, Neil Marten. I'm sure he was a lovely bloke, John! Similarly, someone whose obituary written by a Conservative contains a comment from said obituarist's wife, "why wasn't he one of us?", does tend to make you wonder! That said, I'm happy for you to consider him anti European integration based on what you've provided, I'll consider his later comments about an integrated two-speed Europe as evidence he wasn't quite as Euro-sceptic at the end. Perhaps he still didn't see the UK as part of that process?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 20, 2020 11:35:06 GMT
And When Labour returned to power in February 1974 he became Secretary of State for Trade – but only on the strict understanding that he could speak his own mind in the course of the promised referendum campaign on British membership of the European Community. I worked closely with him in the course of that campaign; and there was no kinder, nor warmer, colleague except, perhaps, Neil Marten. I'm sure he was a lovely bloke, John! Similarly, someone whose obituary written by a Conservative contains a comment from said obituarist's wife, "why wasn't he one of us?", does tend to make you wonder! That said, I'm happy for you to consider him anti European integration based on what you've provided, I'll consider his later comments about an integrated two-speed Europe as evidence he wasn't quite as Euro-sceptic at the end. Perhaps he still didn't see the UK as part of that process? Actually, being a lovely bloke is important, and something Labour seems to have forgotten. They are very judgmental and intolerant these days aren't they? The point in the obituary especially because it was written by a Tory, is to show the esteem in which he was held....obviously Labour don't need to learn anything from him. He was known for his Euroscepticism and patriotism...two areas present day Labour have got wrong....still relevant today... Where's your evidence for your claim in the previous post? Sounds a bit wide of the truth......" "In one obituary it said Shore had now become a right-wing figure, cluckingly approved of by Conservatives, but probably still not quite Euro-sceptic enough even for them? He believed in political union at the heart of Europe in his last book on it not long before he died"
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Post by thevoid on Oct 20, 2020 11:39:35 GMT
Do you reckon if rednwhitenblah and essexstokie had a love child, it would be Nicko? He definitely carries traits of both 😆 As I’m 65 I very much doubt I’m rwb’s and es’s love child? Though my guess is that you could be one of Bluffer’s wrong side of the blanket’s efforts?🙄 I was being sarcastic, as I was with the Corrie reference. They're not meant to be taken literally😆 65- that would explain your gammony outbursts though, Nicko.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 20, 2020 11:42:20 GMT
Do you reckon if rednwhitenblah and essexstokie had a love child, it would be Nicko? He definitely carries traits of both 😆 As I’m 65 I very much doubt I’m rwb’s and es’s love child? Though my guess is that you could be one of Bluffer’s wrong side of the blanket’s efforts?🙄 Well, this has gone entertainingly surreal! Love children and cod psychoanalysis Continuing in the same vein, the aptly named Void reminds me of one of those little poodles, following people around from thread to thread, yapping aimlessly and incessantly, desperate for attention of any kind. Wait a few posts/days and, just like those rather sensitively stomached pooches, precisely the same gets regurgitated back at you! Of course, BJR will be on shortly to criticise Void and the rest of the Left for always making it personal again, oh, hang on...! Ah, that heady whiff of double standards!
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 20, 2020 11:53:30 GMT
As I’m 65 I very much doubt I’m rwb’s and es’s love child? Though my guess is that you could be one of Bluffer’s wrong side of the blanket’s efforts?🙄 Well, this has gone entertainingly surreal! Love children and cod psychoanalysis Continuing in the same vein, the aptly named Void reminds me of one of those little poodles, following people around from thread to thread, yapping aimlessly and incessantly, desperate for attention of any kind. Wait a few posts/days and, just like those rather sensitively stomached pooches, precisely the same gets regurgitated back at you! Of course, BJR will be on shortly to criticise Void and the rest of the Left for always making it personal again, oh, hang on...! Ah, that heady whiff of double standards! Seems like you've lost the argument again. Never mind. Let's look forward
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 20, 2020 11:56:31 GMT
Well, this has gone entertainingly surreal! Love children and cod psychoanalysis Continuing in the same vein, the aptly named Void reminds me of one of those little poodles, following people around from thread to thread, yapping aimlessly and incessantly, desperate for attention of any kind. Wait a few posts/days and, just like those rather sensitively stomached pooches, precisely the same gets regurgitated back at you! Of course, BJR will be on shortly to criticise Void and the rest of the Left for always making it personal again, oh, hang on...! Ah, that heady whiff of double standards! Seems like you've lost the argument again. Never mind. Let's look forward Seems like your double standards are on display again, John. If you're going to call out some folk for getting personal, you need to do it for everyone, including the people you might agree with politically, or you just look like a hypocrite. You know, we could all just agree not to get personal about things, and just talk about the issues. It doesn't strike me as all that difficult really
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 20, 2020 11:57:37 GMT
Seems like you've lost the argument again. Never mind. Let's look forward Seems like your double standards are on display again, John. If you're going to call out some folk for getting personal, you need to do it for everyone, or you just look like a hypocrite. You know, we could all just agree not to get personal about things, and just talk about the issues. It doesn't strike me as all that difficult really Aye, confirmed then. Any evidence to support your point on Shore?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 20, 2020 12:03:33 GMT
Seems like your double standards are on display again, John. If you're going to call out some folk for getting personal, you need to do it for everyone, or you just look like a hypocrite. You know, we could all just agree not to get personal about things, and just talk about the issues. It doesn't strike me as all that difficult really Aye, confirmed then. Any evidence to support your point on Shore? From the Guardian obit: "He had now become a rightwing figure, cluckingly approved of by Conservatives. Many of his prejudices were Margaret Thatcher's. He was devoted to Polaris and the absurdly expensive Trident; he denounced the European Social Chapter as "a road to oblivion". Indeed, after he had spoken of a "Gadarene rush to European economic, monetary and political union," the Iron Lady herself remarked that Shore was "beginning to sound more and more like me". He was made a life peer in 1997. His career was less than the sum of his eloquent, serious-minded parts, but it contained, as between his nationalism and dirigisme, a contradiction which though honourable, came ultimately to look like a muddle". But, as I said, I'll happily accept that from what you've provided, he was indeed a nationalist and Euro-sceptic.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 20, 2020 12:11:01 GMT
Aye, confirmed then. Any evidence to support your point on Shore? From the Guardian obit: "He had now become a rightwing figure, cluckingly approved of by Conservatives. Many of his prejudices were Margaret Thatcher's. He was devoted to Polaris and the absurdly expensive Trident; he denounced the European Social Chapter as "a road to oblivion". Indeed, after he had spoken of a "Gadarene rush to European economic, monetary and political union," the Iron Lady herself remarked that Shore was "beginning to sound more and more like me". He was made a life peer in 1997. His career was less than the sum of his eloquent, serious-minded parts, but it contained, as between his nationalism and dirigisme, a contradiction which though honourable, came ultimately to look like a muddle". But, as I said, I'll happily accept that from what you've provided, he was indeed a nationalist and Euro-sceptic. Your quote supports what I've said about him, not you.... He puts today's Labour to shame.....and his views are more relevant than most. Now that's been established, as per you last paragraph, I'm quite in favour of not looking back, not rerunning the 2016 referendum and keeping to the issues, not making it personal....something presumably you are in favour of.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 20, 2020 12:27:47 GMT
From the Guardian obit: "He had now become a rightwing figure, cluckingly approved of by Conservatives. Many of his prejudices were Margaret Thatcher's. He was devoted to Polaris and the absurdly expensive Trident; he denounced the European Social Chapter as "a road to oblivion". Indeed, after he had spoken of a "Gadarene rush to European economic, monetary and political union," the Iron Lady herself remarked that Shore was "beginning to sound more and more like me". He was made a life peer in 1997. His career was less than the sum of his eloquent, serious-minded parts, but it contained, as between his nationalism and dirigisme, a contradiction which though honourable, came ultimately to look like a muddle". But, as I said, I'll happily accept that from what you've provided, he was indeed a nationalist and Euro-sceptic. Your quote supports what I've said about him, not you.... He puts today's Labour to shame.....and his views are more relevant than most. Now that's been established, as per you last paragraph, I'm quite in favour of not looking back, not rerunning the 2016 referendum and keeping to the issues, not making it personal....something presumably you are in favour of. The quote supports what I wrote about him from the obit, John, which isn't that surprising since it was lifted directly, as quotes usually are! I'm always in favour of discussing things without the need to resort to abuse, insults, name calling etc etc. Strangely, I can't see it happening for some reason! However, on Brexit, I'm not prepared to forget everything that was promised (and nor should anyone, on either side). I think that would be foolhardy, just as it would be to ignore whatever a party promised to get elected. If that means continuing to analyse what is being delivered in the name of Brexit and what it means for the people of the country, I think that's a sensible approach.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 20, 2020 14:12:39 GMT
Your quote supports what I've said about him, not you.... He puts today's Labour to shame.....and his views are more relevant than most. Now that's been established, as per you last paragraph, I'm quite in favour of not looking back, not rerunning the 2016 referendum and keeping to the issues, not making it personal....something presumably you are in favour of. The quote supports what I wrote about him from the obit, John, which isn't that surprising since it was lifted directly, as quotes usually are! I'm always in favour of discussing things without the need to resort to abuse, insults, name calling etc etc. Strangely, I can't see it happening for some reason! However, on Brexit, I'm not prepared to forget everything that was promised (and nor should anyone, on either side). I think that would be foolhardy, just as it would be to ignore whatever a party promised to get elected. If that means continuing to analyse what is being delivered in the name of Brexit and what it means for the people of the country, I think that's a sensible approach. In respect of Brexit,( this thread' topic) your quote clearly says" he denounced the European Social Chapter as "a road to oblivion". Indeed, after he had spoken of a "Gadarene rush to European economic, monetary and political union,"...hence Shore remained firmly Eurosceptic, as was Thatcher. It/ he is still relevant/ more relevant than today's Labour interest issue. I don't mind looking forward but your idea of " what was promised " is simply nonsense. The facts are that we held a referendum, and a " decision " was made to leave the EU. That is the only " promise" that is relevant.....your reverting to the past isn’t about trying to hold people to account but your inability to accept the result and to let it go. Mind you , the more you do it , as time moves on, the more irrelevant it will be. And you do have a history of making things personal.. let's see if you can avoid it from hereon in.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 20, 2020 17:22:08 GMT
Just to be clear, I'm well aware of what the result was and that we're about to leave the EU. Is that clear enough? I'm allowed, as far as I'm aware, to think it might not be a great idea still. That doesn't mean I don't accept the result. Similarly, I'm well aware that Stoke lost 2-0 to Bristol City earlier this season. I don't especially like that result either, but I accept it!
I'm also well aware of what was stated (on both sides) in order to persuade people how to vote. It makes perfect sense to me to hold those promises to account now we are finally about to leave. I would have thought you'd want to do so too, to make sure all those reasons people gave for voting Leave are ultimately delivered too. This is just the same as a general election isn't it? Seeing whether the party that won is actually doing what they said they'd do. As we move into the delivery phase of leaving the EU, it'll be interesting to see whether this is the case and the benefits and opportunities that Brexiteers have been going on about come to pass. I think you said it'd take three or four years, didn't you?
If we are all going to avoid making things personal, and that'd be very welcome across the board, it'd be good if you would similarly call out everyone who does so, regardless of their political leanings, John. Silence or overlooking those who share your own politics getting unnecessarily abusive or personal just smacks of double standards and hypocrisy. Just to be clear, I'm not being personal!, just recommending an approach that will benefit us all and it'd be good if you adopted it too.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 20, 2020 17:50:18 GMT
Just to be clear, I'm well aware of what the result was and that we're about to leave the EU. Is that clear enough? I'm allowed, as far as I'm aware, to think it might not be a great idea still. That doesn't mean I don't accept the result. Similarly, I'm well aware that Stoke lost 2-0 to Bristol City earlier this season. I don't especially like that result either, but I accept it! I'm also well aware of what was stated (on both sides) in order to persuade people how to vote. It makes perfect sense to me to hold those promises to account now we are finally about to leave. I would have thought you'd want to do so too, to make sure all those reasons people gave for voting Leave are ultimately delivered too. This is just the same as a general election isn't it? Seeing whether the party that won is actually doing what they said they'd do. As we move into the delivery phase of leaving the EU, it'll be interesting to see whether this is the case and the benefits and opportunities that Brexiteers have been going on about come to pass. I think you said it'd take three or four years, didn't you? If we are all going to avoid making things personal, and that'd be very welcome across the board, it'd be good if you would similarly call out everyone who does so, regardless of their political leanings, John. Silence or overlooking those who share your own politics getting unnecessarily abusive or personal just smacks of double standards and hypocrisy. Just to be clear, I'm not being personal!, just recommending an approach that will benefit us all and it'd be good if you adopted it too. They weren't " promises " as such. It doesn't take much working out to realise that everything discussed and argued would be subject to future politics. Some of those making the arguments such as Farage would never be in a position to manage or influence the implementation. All your so called promises have been superceded by the unwarranted disgraceful attempts to deny the result and democracy itself, to thwart Brexit. From the referendum the only thing to be " judged " are we finally going to deliver what WAS clearly promised by the government " It's your decision, not politicians, we will implement what you decide." etc. The most disgraceful thing that the Left should be concerned about other than the principle of Brexit itself( aka Tony Benn , Shore, Stuart, Hoey,) and other than attempts to thwart Brexit was colluding in the argument that the electorate were" thick" and using basic Marxism by scaring them into conformity through the threat of losing their jobs.... I recall you once saying " What's the point in BJR chaps?" etc....you always resort to the personal.. If others do it on here( and they often do) then it is up to those involved to " call them out"....I'm just pointing out that it is common practice for you to do it. I would add, and I can't convey this strongly enough, it doesn't affect me whatsoever, I just enjoy the largely political and other banter on here....your personal stuff is a bit of a minor sad side show. Carry on.
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Post by thevoid on Oct 20, 2020 20:49:36 GMT
Seems like you've lost the argument again. Never mind. Let's look forward Seems like your double standards are on display again, John. If you're going to call out some folk for getting personal, you need to do it for everyone, including the people you might agree with politically, or you just look like a hypocrite. You know, we could all just agree not to get personal about things, and just talk about the issues. It doesn't strike me as all that difficult really Oh the irony 😆You really are a piece of work with not an ounce of self awareness- you're actually beyond parody, Bluers. Any danger of you practicing what you preach and pulling up Left Wing Club on their behaviour when they cross the line? Rhetorical question there- I think the world and his wife knows the answer to that one. You've practically used one of my digs at you almost verbatim on BJR- what is it they say about imitation? 😆 There really is nothing needy about me- it's The Oatcake, who cares? It's faceless people chatting about stuff, no more, no less- how many times does this need saying? I only 'follow you around' to expose your hypocrisy and you are incapable of giving a balanced and logical counter-argument to anything I call you out on. It really is shooting fish in a barrel with you. You embarrassed yourself on the original Sgt Ratana/Croydon thread and it's not just me who thought so. When Vokeswagen is suggesting that your gibberish about gangs on this forum is misplaced, perhaps it's time to have a word with yourself? 😊 I will do you a deal though- when you stop making an exhibition of yourself and cease posting one-eyed hypocritical bollocks, I'll leave you alone. Over to you 😂
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Post by thevoid on Oct 20, 2020 21:26:22 GMT
Just to be clear, I'm well aware of what the result was and that we're about to leave the EU. Is that clear enough? I'm allowed, as far as I'm aware, to think it might not be a great idea still. That doesn't mean I don't accept the result. Similarly, I'm well aware that Stoke lost 2-0 to Bristol City earlier this season. I don't especially like that result either, but I accept it! I'm also well aware of what was stated (on both sides) in order to persuade people how to vote. It makes perfect sense to me to hold those promises to account now we are finally about to leave. I would have thought you'd want to do so too, to make sure all those reasons people gave for voting Leave are ultimately delivered too. This is just the same as a general election isn't it? Seeing whether the party that won is actually doing what they said they'd do. As we move into the delivery phase of leaving the EU, it'll be interesting to see whether this is the case and the benefits and opportunities that Brexiteers have been going on about come to pass. I think you said it'd take three or four years, didn't you? If we are all going to avoid making things personal, and that'd be very welcome across the board, it'd be good if you would similarly call out everyone who does so, regardless of their political leanings, John. Silence or overlooking those who share your own politics getting unnecessarily abusive or personal just smacks of double standards and hypocrisy. Just to be clear, I'm not being personal!, just recommending an approach that will benefit us all and it'd be good if you adopted it too. They weren't " promises " as such. It doesn't take much working out to realise that everything discussed and argued would be subject to future politics. Some of those making the arguments such as Farage would never be in a position to manage or influence the implementation. All your so called promises have been superceded by the unwarranted disgraceful attempts to deny the result and democracy itself, to thwart Brexit. From the referendum the only thing to be " judged " are we finally going to deliver what WAS clearly promised by the government " It's your decision, not politicians, we will implement what you decide." etc. The most disgraceful thing that the Left should be concerned about other than the principle of Brexit itself( aka Tony Benn , Shore, Stuart, Hoey,) and other than attempts to thwart Brexit was colluding in the argument that the electorate were" thick" and using basic Marxism by scaring them into conformity through the threat of losing their jobs.... I recall you once saying " What's the point in BJR chaps?" etc....you always resort to the personal.. If others do it on here( and they often do) then it is up to those involved to " call them out"....I'm just pointing out that it is common practice for you to do it. I would add, and I can't convey this strongly enough, it doesn't affect me whatsoever, I just enjoy the largely political and other banter on here....your personal stuff is a bit of a minor sad side show. Carry on. You got off lightly John, he called me a nailbomber once. Count your blessings 😂 Joking aside, it's a measure of the man- he tries to portray himself as a voice of reason but the mask has slipped too many times. Vile individual. I know what he'll have on his gravestone though- 'Do As I Say, Not As I Do'!
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 21, 2020 6:26:09 GMT
Ah, the old nailbomber fallback!
Been challenged about providing a direct quote of me calling you a nailbomber before, haven't we, Void? Didn't manage to come up with the goods last time either, so if you can't manage to do so again, it'll have to go down as more made up Void bullshit, I'm afraid.
Probably a good place to look would be the happily now defunct I Hate Muslims Cultural Enrichment thread on which you were such a regular.
Such a shame, there's really no need for any of it, nor the racism. The board would be a much better place if neither existed. And if shared viewpoints didn't encourage the hypocrisy and double standards of overlooking those who do.
Let's hope it improves. My feeling is that some people can't help themselves when it comes to racism, name calling and double standards, but you never know, perhaps they'll surprise me.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 21, 2020 6:35:51 GMT
Just to be clear, I'm well aware of what the result was and that we're about to leave the EU. Is that clear enough? I'm allowed, as far as I'm aware, to think it might not be a great idea still. That doesn't mean I don't accept the result. Similarly, I'm well aware that Stoke lost 2-0 to Bristol City earlier this season. I don't especially like that result either, but I accept it! I'm also well aware of what was stated (on both sides) in order to persuade people how to vote. It makes perfect sense to me to hold those promises to account now we are finally about to leave. I would have thought you'd want to do so too, to make sure all those reasons people gave for voting Leave are ultimately delivered too. This is just the same as a general election isn't it? Seeing whether the party that won is actually doing what they said they'd do. As we move into the delivery phase of leaving the EU, it'll be interesting to see whether this is the case and the benefits and opportunities that Brexiteers have been going on about come to pass. I think you said it'd take three or four years, didn't you? If we are all going to avoid making things personal, and that'd be very welcome across the board, it'd be good if you would similarly call out everyone who does so, regardless of their political leanings, John. Silence or overlooking those who share your own politics getting unnecessarily abusive or personal just smacks of double standards and hypocrisy. Just to be clear, I'm not being personal!, just recommending an approach that will benefit us all and it'd be good if you adopted it too. They weren't " promises " as such. It doesn't take much working out to realise that everything discussed and argued would be subject to future politics. Some of those making the arguments such as Farage would never be in a position to manage or influence the implementation. All your so called promises have been superceded by the unwarranted disgraceful attempts to deny the result and democracy itself, to thwart Brexit. From the referendum the only thing to be " judged " are we finally going to deliver what WAS clearly promised by the government " It's your decision, not politicians, we will implement what you decide." etc. The most disgraceful thing that the Left should be concerned about other than the principle of Brexit itself( aka Tony Benn , Shore, Stuart, Hoey,) and other than attempts to thwart Brexit was colluding in the argument that the electorate were" thick" and using basic Marxism by scaring them into conformity through the threat of losing their jobs.... I recall you once saying " What's the point in BJR chaps?" etc....you always resort to the personal.. If others do it on here( and they often do) then it is up to those involved to " call them out"....I'm just pointing out that it is common practice for you to do it. I would add, and I can't convey this strongly enough, it doesn't affect me whatsoever, I just enjoy the largely political and other banter on here....your personal stuff is a bit of a minor sad side show. Carry on. I suppose it depends on your definition of a promise. If you go around advertising that we should spend £350m a week on the NHS instead of the EU, some people might think that's a good idea, I'll vote for Brexit on that basis, or at the very least as one of the bases for doing so. Cummings himself said that message played particularly strongly in persuading people to vote Leave. So what was that message? A promise, a lie, a bluff, an isn't this a good idea but we don't really mean it? You tell me, John. But this is what I'm talking about. If those who advocated Leave came out with stuff like this to persuade people to vote that way, it's perfectly reasonable, in my eyes, to see whether what they said is going to be delivered now that they have won. Don't you? This is all about the future now. I'm quite interested to know where all that cash will go and what else transpires compared to what was put forward. Seems reasonable.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 21, 2020 6:42:58 GMT
They weren't " promises " as such. It doesn't take much working out to realise that everything discussed and argued would be subject to future politics. Some of those making the arguments such as Farage would never be in a position to manage or influence the implementation. All your so called promises have been superceded by the unwarranted disgraceful attempts to deny the result and democracy itself, to thwart Brexit. From the referendum the only thing to be " judged " are we finally going to deliver what WAS clearly promised by the government " It's your decision, not politicians, we will implement what you decide." etc. The most disgraceful thing that the Left should be concerned about other than the principle of Brexit itself( aka Tony Benn , Shore, Stuart, Hoey,) and other than attempts to thwart Brexit was colluding in the argument that the electorate were" thick" and using basic Marxism by scaring them into conformity through the threat of losing their jobs.... I recall you once saying " What's the point in BJR chaps?" etc....you always resort to the personal.. If others do it on here( and they often do) then it is up to those involved to " call them out"....I'm just pointing out that it is common practice for you to do it. I would add, and I can't convey this strongly enough, it doesn't affect me whatsoever, I just enjoy the largely political and other banter on here....your personal stuff is a bit of a minor sad side show. Carry on. I suppose it depends on your definition of a promise. If you go around advertising that we should spend £350m a week on the NHS instead of the EU, some people might think that's a good idea, I'll vote for Brexit on that basis, or at the very least as one of the bases for doing so. Cummings himself said that message played particularly strongly in persuading people to vote Leave. So what was that message? A promise, a lie, a bluff, an isn't this a good idea but we don't really mean it? You tell me, John. But this is what I'm talking about. If those who advocated Leave came out with stuff like this to persuade people to vote that way, it's perfectly reasonable, in my eyes, to see whether what they said is going to be delivered now that they have won. Don't you? This is all about the future now. I'm quite interested to know where all that cash will go and what else transpires compared to what was put forward. Seems reasonable. No that wasn't a promise. We probably have already fulfilled that by default because of Covid. It has been discussed endlessly, and is probably impossible to assess. Most people have moved on , but carry on.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 21, 2020 6:51:27 GMT
What was it then, John?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 21, 2020 6:57:34 GMT
I'm not particularly interested in what was. It's your thing. Perhaps seek legal advice. metro.co.uk/2019/06/07/boris-johnson-wins-legal-battle-brexit-bus-lies-9863392/I suppose you'll have to do a thorough investigation and come to the conclusion that you want to come to" We were lied to, the promises have been broken"...and then you can feel good in your own mind and possibly on this board. Then what? I don't think it really matters, certainly not to me.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 21, 2020 7:15:07 GMT
I'm not particularly interested in what was. It's your thing. I suppose you'll have to do a thorough investigation and come to the conclusion that you want to come to" We were lied to, the promises have been broken"...and then you can feel good in your own mind and possibly on this board. Then what? I don't think it really matters, certainly not to me. Are you really saying that the pledges/advertising/promises/indications (call them whatever you're comfortable with) to encourage people to vote Leave don't matter to you? You're a UKIPper, am I right? Or at least voted for them. If they got elected to power and you'd voted for them, presumably you'd have done so based on their manifesto, or failing that whatever you'd read, seen or heard from Farage or via their material? Correct? In which case, would you not then be interested to know whether what you'd based your vote on actually came to pass?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 21, 2020 7:16:51 GMT
I'm not particularly interested in what was. It's your thing. I suppose you'll have to do a thorough investigation and come to the conclusion that you want to come to" We were lied to, the promises have been broken"...and then you can feel good in your own mind and possibly on this board. Then what? I don't think it really matters, certainly not to me. Are you really saying that the pledges/advertising/promises/indications (call them whatever you're comfortable with) to encourage people to vote Leave don't matter to you? You're a UKIPper, am I right? Or at least voted for them. If they got elected and you'd voted for them, presumably you'd have done so based on their manifesto, or failing that whatever you'd read, seen or heard from Farage or via their material? Correct? In which case, would you not then be interested to know whether what you'd based your vote on actually came to pass? As I say the bus isn't my thing. Seek legal advice. metro.co.uk/2019/06/07/boris-johnson-wins-legal-battle-brexit-bus-lies-9863392/I made up my mind about the EU years before a referendum was muted and likely , let alone arranged. Funnily enough the last Brexit party "manifesto " moved away from the concept of " manifesto" to " contract"....and frighteningly enough Farage would probably have delivered
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 21, 2020 7:20:46 GMT
Are you really saying that the pledges/advertising/promises/indications (call them whatever you're comfortable with) to encourage people to vote Leave don't matter to you? You're a UKIPper, am I right? Or at least voted for them. If they got elected and you'd voted for them, presumably you'd have done so based on their manifesto, or failing that whatever you'd read, seen or heard from Farage or via their material? Correct? In which case, would you not then be interested to know whether what you'd based your vote on actually came to pass? As I say the bus isn't my thing. Seek legal advice. metro.co.uk/2019/06/07/boris-johnson-wins-legal-battle-brexit-bus-lies-9863392/I made up my mind about the EU years before a referendum was muted and likely , let alone arranged. With all due respect, and this is in no way personal, I think you might be missing the point. I'm perfectly happy that you made up your own mind years before the referendum was even mooted. However, for those who didn't, which probably accounts for many millions, do you think it reasonable that the pledges/advertising/promises/indications etc that were made to encourage people to vote in a certain way should now be held to scrutiny to see if they come to pass? Answer the question about your UKIP government if you would. It's the same point.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 21, 2020 7:33:00 GMT
With all due respect, and this is in no way personal, I think you might be missing the point. I'm perfectly happy that you made up your own mind years before the referendum was even mooted. However, for those who didn't, which probably accounts for many millions, do you think it reasonable that the pledges/advertising/promises/indications etc that were made to encourage people to vote in a certain way should now be held to scrutiny to see if they come to pass? Answer the question about your UKIP government if you would. It's the same point. To be honest Red, I'm not particularly interested in your agenda at this precise moment, perhaps someone else can help you? I'll have one go at answering your question and leave it at that. Obviously I'd vote for UKIP or the BREXIT party based upon their stance on Brexit. They were never going to be in a position to influence or deliver Brexit because of the Lib/Labour monopoly ( duopoly?). So , in my opinion, we found ourselves relying on Remainer May..which failed. So we were forced to support the " Lets get Brexit done", man ( and I think that could be construed as a promise...and it won him an 80 seat majority).....based upon that , using your argument, it seems that delivering Brexit is still important to people and they want it delivered....EVEN though they have had plenty of time to peruse the " side of the bus issue"....it didn't matter to them. They had moved on. It's your thing and perhaps a couple more Remainers. I guess Boris will be judged on that pledge. For me each person has to judge for themselves who they trust and what are the important issues in an election. I am simply not interested in sides of buses of 5 years ago even if you think I should be. Nothing personal, it's your thing. You could consider a different view, Brendan O'Neil, horror, horror www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-great-brexit-bus-delusion
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