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Post by vokeswagen on Oct 17, 2020 7:16:00 GMT
See Vokes has ripped you again He beats a fairly hasty retreat when you start to properly interrogate why he’s lying about everything you’ve just posted
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 17, 2020 7:23:18 GMT
See Vokes has ripped you again He beats a fairly hasty retreat when you start to properly interrogate why he’s lying about everything you’ve just posted Onwards and upwards
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Post by Linx on Oct 17, 2020 8:15:16 GMT
We chose to leave the club. It is up to the club as to whether or not they want to change their rules to play with us. I don't understand why that is so hard for Leavers to accept? Sorry? That makes absolute no sense. It's like saying "you chose to leave our old boys club and we are therefore going to continue to steal out of your bank account and seize control of stuff that you own". Why the fuck do we owe the EU anything? We owe the EU about £40 Billion. Possibly more, but that was the figure agreed at one of the earlier withdrawal arrangements. This is monies that we signed up to, with tie-ins, long before we had the referendum, to commit our funding contribution to EU projects, plus any balance that we might owe to the EU for development projects paid into the UK economy. So £40 billion, plus all the money that the Chancellor is throwing on the Covid Bonfire will ensure that we start 2021 with the biggest economic deficit since the end of WW2, which we only stopped paying for about ten years ago, and which essentially crippled our economy throughout the latter half of the last century. I’d like to think that we will be sitting pretty in about five years time but I suspect your question might have changed by then to ‘What the fuck have we gone and done?’
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Post by thevoid on Oct 17, 2020 8:18:09 GMT
See Vokes has ripped you again He beats a fairly hasty retreat when you start to properly interrogate why he’s lying about everything you’ve just posted So what made you vote Leave, mate?
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Post by GrahamHyde on Oct 17, 2020 9:03:15 GMT
Excellent news.
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Post by vokeswagen on Oct 17, 2020 9:11:02 GMT
He beats a fairly hasty retreat when you start to properly interrogate why he’s lying about everything you’ve just posted So what made you vote Leave, mate? I don’t particularly like the EU. Nasty organisation. I hoped the process of leaving might be managed better but perhaps should’ve known better. And I think it’s idiotic to blame that situation solely on one negotiating party. That said, I stand by my vote and hope it goes well of course
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 17, 2020 9:12:22 GMT
Sorry? That makes absolute no sense. It's like saying "you chose to leave our old boys club and we are therefore going to continue to steal out of your bank account and seize control of stuff that you own". Why the fuck do we owe the EU anything? We owe the EU about £40 Billion. Possibly more, but that was the figure agreed at one of the earlier withdrawal arrangements. This is monies that we signed up to, with tie-ins, long before we had the referendum, to commit our funding contribution to EU projects, plus any balance that we might owe to the EU for development projects paid into the UK economy. So £40 billion, plus all the money that the Chancellor is throwing on the Covid Bonfire will ensure that we start 2021 with the biggest economic deficit since the end of WW2, which we only stopped paying for about ten years ago, and which essentially crippled our economy throughout the latter half of the last century. I’d like to think that we will be sitting pretty in about five years time but I suspect your question might have changed by then to ‘What the fuck have we gone and done?’ Quite right, that'll be the £40bn which Bluffer told the EU to go whistle for which he couldn't wait to then sign up to as part of the WA (part of which he now wants to break the law about ). Incidentally, I'll put money on most Brexiteers thinking we won't be paying that £40bn in the event of a no deal scenario! Even the most sensible of Brexiteers on here thinks it'll take "decades for the benefits of leaving to accrue". If they do.
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 17, 2020 9:23:00 GMT
Sorry? That makes absolute no sense. It's like saying "you chose to leave our old boys club and we are therefore going to continue to steal out of your bank account and seize control of stuff that you own". Why the fuck do we owe the EU anything? We owe the EU about £40 Billion. Possibly more, but that was the figure agreed at one of the earlier withdrawal arrangements. This is monies that we signed up to, with tie-ins, long before we had the referendum, to commit our funding contribution to EU projects, plus any balance that we might owe to the EU for development projects paid into the UK economy. So £40 billion, plus all the money that the Chancellor is throwing on the Covid Bonfire will ensure that we start 2021 with the biggest economic deficit since the end of WW2, which we only stopped paying for about ten years ago, and which essentially crippled our economy throughout the latter half of the last century. I’d like to think that we will be sitting pretty in about five years time but I suspect your question might have changed by then to ‘What the fuck have we gone and done?’ We dont owe the EU £40 billion roughly half of that related to "membership" fees during the transition period, much of the rest relates to salaries and pensions of uk staff etc that it is quite reasonable to pay, liabilities for funding contributions to EU projects the advice of the house of lords was it was not payable although May agreed to try and smooth the process but if it comes to no deal it quite possible the WA and divorce bill can be set aside and settled in the courts as dont remember the EU mantra at the start Nothing is Agreed until Everything is Agreed.
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Post by thevoid on Oct 17, 2020 9:31:41 GMT
So what made you vote Leave, mate? I don’t particularly like the EU. Nasty organisation. I hoped the process of leaving might be managed better but perhaps should’ve known better. And I think it’s idiotic to blame that situation solely on one negotiating party. That said, I stand by my vote and hope it goes well of course What don't you like about it?
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Oct 17, 2020 10:05:00 GMT
We owe the EU about £40 Billion. Possibly more, but that was the figure agreed at one of the earlier withdrawal arrangements. This is monies that we signed up to, with tie-ins, long before we had the referendum, to commit our funding contribution to EU projects, plus any balance that we might owe to the EU for development projects paid into the UK economy. So £40 billion, plus all the money that the Chancellor is throwing on the Covid Bonfire will ensure that we start 2021 with the biggest economic deficit since the end of WW2, which we only stopped paying for about ten years ago, and which essentially crippled our economy throughout the latter half of the last century. I’d like to think that we will be sitting pretty in about five years time but I suspect your question might have changed by then to ‘What the fuck have we gone and done?’ We dont owe the EU £40 billion roughly half of that related to "membership" fees during the transition period, much of the rest relates to salaries and pensions of uk staff etc that it is quite reasonable to pay, liabilities for funding contributions to EU projects the advice of the house of lords was it was not payable although May agreed to try and smooth the process but if it comes to no deal it quite possible the WA and divorce bill can be set aside and settled in the courts as dont remember the EU mantra at the start Nothing is Agreed until Everything is Agreed. Well, we’ve already paid up most of the £40b by the time we leave even now on WTO terms if that is what happens! I remember all the right wing crap by FYD that we won’t have to pay! They can’t make us pay! It’s illegal! Blah-di-blah! But we’ve paid up most of it! Remember Theresa May saying no more than £20b! Boris no more than sweet fanny adams! You know this lot are liars because their Tory lips are moving up and down! 🥺
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 17, 2020 10:13:30 GMT
Sorry? That makes absolute no sense. It's like saying "you chose to leave our old boys club and we are therefore going to continue to steal out of your bank account and seize control of stuff that you own". Why the fuck do we owe the EU anything? We owe the EU about £40 Billion. Possibly more, but that was the figure agreed at one of the earlier withdrawal arrangements. This is monies that we signed up to, with tie-ins, long before we had the referendum, to commit our funding contribution to EU projects, plus any balance that we might owe to the EU for development projects paid into the UK economy. So £40 billion, plus all the money that the Chancellor is throwing on the Covid Bonfire will ensure that we start 2021 with the biggest economic deficit since the end of WW2, which we only stopped paying for about ten years ago, and which essentially crippled our economy throughout the latter half of the last century. I’d like to think that we will be sitting pretty in about five years time but I suspect your question might have changed by then to ‘What the fuck have we gone and done?’ Many people across Europe and in the UK are already asking " what the fuck have we gone and done?" in respect of mass, unmanaged immigration and the subsequent cultural clash. There is absolutely no reason that trade between the EU and UK could not continue relatively smoothly....if it wasn't enmeshed with political and economic union. Until the referendum the people of the UK were never directly and clearly asked if they consented to that union....and even then there were attempts to hoodwink, mislead and scare them into compliance. The project should never have reached that stage. I can understand the fear now of change, of going into the relatively unknown, standing on our own. A massive change is bound to cause anxiety. Arguably, that doesn't make the change wrong....nor does it mean that we should not be allowed a choice. A majority of the British people, when given the opportunity, chose not to be in the UK and despite the difficulties, challenges and opportunities I believe would probably still do so. Whichever route was chosen it is impossible to say where the alternative would have taken us....single currency/ super state/ lack of control/Decions made not in our interest/uncontrolled borders/disaffection/ civil unrest? Who knows?
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 17, 2020 10:39:43 GMT
We dont owe the EU £40 billion roughly half of that related to "membership" fees during the transition period, much of the rest relates to salaries and pensions of uk staff etc that it is quite reasonable to pay, liabilities for funding contributions to EU projects the advice of the house of lords was it was not payable although May agreed to try and smooth the process but if it comes to no deal it quite possible the WA and divorce bill can be set aside and settled in the courts as dont remember the EU mantra at the start Nothing is Agreed until Everything is Agreed. Well, we’ve already paid up most of the £40b by the time we leave even now on WTO terms if that is what happens! I remember all the right wing crap by FYD that we won’t have to pay! They can’t make us pay! It’s illegal! Blah-di-blah! But we’ve paid up most of it! Remember Theresa May saying no more than £20b! Boris no more than sweet fanny adams! You know this lot are liars because their Tory lips are moving up and down! 🥺 When you say remember I think you mean you just made up, I posted many times most of the payment was for the transition period, also said it was right we paid genuine liabilities of uk for salaries, pensions etc. You don't seem to understand that advice you don't legally have to pay something does not make it illegal. Interesting you consider paying fees to be a member of the EU expensive nice to see you got there in the end
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Oct 17, 2020 10:48:56 GMT
Well, we’ve already paid up most of the £40b by the time we leave even now on WTO terms if that is what happens! I remember all the right wing crap by FYD that we won’t have to pay! They can’t make us pay! It’s illegal! Blah-di-blah! But we’ve paid up most of it! Remember Theresa May saying no more than £20b! Boris no more than sweet fanny adams! You know this lot are liars because their Tory lips are moving up and down! 🥺 When you say remember I think you mean you just made up, I posted many times most of the payment was for the transition period, also said it was right we paid genuine liabilities of uk for salaries, pensions etc. You don't seem to understand that advice you don't legally have to pay something does not make it illegal. Interesting you consider paying fees to be a member of the EU expensive nice to see you got there in the end You’re splitting hairs over the legality/illegal issue. The truth is we’ve coughed up practically all of it now! If the payment is as you claim we didn’t have to pay it surely you Tories won’t get any monies back as an overpayment? I remember many Tories in Parliament saying the monies will be a bargaining chip in our favour? Another Tory lie! Some bargaining chip in our favour now? Haha!
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 17, 2020 11:00:31 GMT
You don't want to blame people on 'betting' on the country to fail and pushing for no deal, despite the Governments own conclusion that it will be a disaster? I'm not sure that is what they are doing.....are they betting on the country to fail? But my point is that irrespective of the government, Labour, Tory or other, the market dealers have and will make money from their " speculation s" /photo/1
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 17, 2020 11:12:11 GMT
I'm not sure that is what they are doing.....are they betting on the country to fail? But my point is that irrespective of the government, Labour, Tory or other, the market dealers have and will make money from their " speculation s" /photo/1 One of the responses to your link says: fullfact.org/economy/short-positions/But I'm not arguing with your point that market speculators will" gamble " on the outcome of Brexit. That's what they do....some would say( if you go along with the system by default) that they are obliged to make such decisions in respect of investors/ pensions. Perhaps the whole thing/ system stinks. Whist in the EU we had Soros. No doubt there will be turbulence in the markets. Obviously you are passionate about anything that does not seem fair....and that usually means knocking some/ all Tories....I can't argue with some of that, except to say that just like in Labour, in life there are some good ones. But for me it does not distract from the main issue of leaving the EU/ self determination...a non party issue.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 17, 2020 11:29:11 GMT
We owe the EU about £40 Billion. Possibly more, but that was the figure agreed at one of the earlier withdrawal arrangements. This is monies that we signed up to, with tie-ins, long before we had the referendum, to commit our funding contribution to EU projects, plus any balance that we might owe to the EU for development projects paid into the UK economy. So £40 billion, plus all the money that the Chancellor is throwing on the Covid Bonfire will ensure that we start 2021 with the biggest economic deficit since the end of WW2, which we only stopped paying for about ten years ago, and which essentially crippled our economy throughout the latter half of the last century. I’d like to think that we will be sitting pretty in about five years time but I suspect your question might have changed by then to ‘What the fuck have we gone and done?’ Many people across Europe and in the UK are already asking " what the fuck have we gone and done?" in respect of mass, unmanaged immigration and the subsequent cultural clash. There is absolutely no reason that trade between the EU and UK could not continue relatively smoothly....if it wasn't enmeshed with political and economic union. Until the referendum the people of the UK were never directly and clearly asked if they consented to that union....and even then there were attempts to hoodwink, mislead and scare them into compliance. The project should never have reached that stage. I can understand the fear now of change, of going into the relatively unknown, standing on our own. A massive change is bound to cause anxiety. Arguably, that doesn't make the change wrong....nor does it mean that we should not be allowed a choice. A majority of the British people, when given the opportunity, chose not to be in the UK and despite the difficulties, challenges and opportunities I believe would probably still do so. Whichever route was chosen it is impossible to say where the alternative would have taken us....single currency/ super state/ lack of control/Decions made not in our interest/uncontrolled borders/disaffection/ civil unrest? Who knows? It's not the speculating that's the issue (well it is in a way) its the subsequent influence to get the desired outcome and the complete disregard for the wider consequences
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Oct 17, 2020 11:49:09 GMT
Many people across Europe and in the UK are already asking " what the fuck have we gone and done?" in respect of mass, unmanaged immigration and the subsequent cultural clash. There is absolutely no reason that trade between the EU and UK could not continue relatively smoothly....if it wasn't enmeshed with political and economic union. Until the referendum the people of the UK were never directly and clearly asked if they consented to that union....and even then there were attempts to hoodwink, mislead and scare them into compliance. The project should never have reached that stage. I can understand the fear now of change, of going into the relatively unknown, standing on our own. A massive change is bound to cause anxiety. Arguably, that doesn't make the change wrong....nor does it mean that we should not be allowed a choice. A majority of the British people, when given the opportunity, chose not to be in the UK and despite the difficulties, challenges and opportunities I believe would probably still do so. Whichever route was chosen it is impossible to say where the alternative would have taken us....single currency/ super state/ lack of control/Decions made not in our interest/uncontrolled borders/disaffection/ civil unrest? Who knows? It's not the speculating that's the issue (well it is in a way) its the subsequent influence to get the desired outcome and the complete disregard for the wider consequences Exactly, sheikh! It’s not gambling when you’re fully in control of that particular outcome? It’s the reason why footballers aren’t allowed to gamble on matches and jockeys are banned from gambling on horse races!😳
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 17, 2020 11:56:45 GMT
It's not the speculating that's the issue (well it is in a way) its the subsequent influence to get the desired outcome and the complete disregard for the wider consequences Exactly, sheikh! It’s not gambling when you’re fully in control of that particular outcome? It’s the reason why footballers aren’t allowed to gamble on matches and jockeys are banned from gambling on horse races!😳 They don't even pay their 'betting' tax mate www.penews.com/articles/uks-richest-to-offload-billions-in-assets-to-avoid-covid-19-tax-hikes-20201012
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 17, 2020 12:51:46 GMT
Many people across Europe and in the UK are already asking " what the fuck have we gone and done?" in respect of mass, unmanaged immigration and the subsequent cultural clash. There is absolutely no reason that trade between the EU and UK could not continue relatively smoothly....if it wasn't enmeshed with political and economic union. Until the referendum the people of the UK were never directly and clearly asked if they consented to that union....and even then there were attempts to hoodwink, mislead and scare them into compliance. The project should never have reached that stage. I can understand the fear now of change, of going into the relatively unknown, standing on our own. A massive change is bound to cause anxiety. Arguably, that doesn't make the change wrong....nor does it mean that we should not be allowed a choice. A majority of the British people, when given the opportunity, chose not to be in the UK and despite the difficulties, challenges and opportunities I believe would probably still do so. Whichever route was chosen it is impossible to say where the alternative would have taken us....single currency/ super state/ lack of control/Decions made not in our interest/uncontrolled borders/disaffection/ civil unrest? Who knows? It's not the speculating that's the issue (well it is in a way) its the subsequent influence to get the desired outcome and the complete disregard for the wider consequences But Sheikh I'm sure that Farage for instance would be and was in favour of a deal, perhaps the Canadian one.He was against the WA because it was incompatible with a deal. I don't know about Rees Mogg but I'd imagine that he is in favour of a deal , whilst "investing". Personally I think that it does actually distract from the issues that concern most people around Brexit and consequently do the left no favours. I don't think an argument that some people will/ are making money by speculating therefore we should stay in the EU holds much weight( I know that you are not saying that). In my opinion we are where we are in respect of deals because the EU won't treat us like a truly independent country, and Boris made the mistake of signing up to Remainer May's withdrawal agreement....for whatever reasons.
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 17, 2020 13:00:43 GMT
When you say remember I think you mean you just made up, I posted many times most of the payment was for the transition period, also said it was right we paid genuine liabilities of uk for salaries, pensions etc. You don't seem to understand that advice you don't legally have to pay something does not make it illegal. Interesting you consider paying fees to be a member of the EU expensive nice to see you got there in the end You’re splitting hairs over the legality/illegal issue. The truth is we’ve coughed up practically all of it now! If the payment is as you claim we didn’t have to pay it surely you Tories won’t get any monies back as an overpayment? I remember many Tories in Parliament saying the monies will be a bargaining chip in our favour? Another Tory lie! Some bargaining chip in our favour now? Haha! No I am not splitting hairs, suggest you go back again and read what I have written. And again we haven't paid up practically all of the money all we have paid is the ongoing EU membership fees, this was payable if we stayed and is paid during the transition period as we still effectively continue as members, the EU wanted to extend and extend the transition period and aided and abetted by Bercow and all would have done. The remainder will if it is paid at all be done over the next 40 something years, if there is no trade deal, then.there is no WA and no divorce deal so its all in play.
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 17, 2020 13:08:02 GMT
It's not the speculating that's the issue (well it is in a way) its the subsequent influence to get the desired outcome and the complete disregard for the wider consequences Exactly, sheikh! It’s not gambling when you’re fully in control of that particular outcome? It’s the reason why footballers aren’t allowed to gamble on matches and jockeys are banned from gambling on horse races!😳 I see shorting is something else you and sheikh don't understand these firms bet on companies that aren't doing well or have lots of debt, falling sales etc etc and bet their shares will go down, they do this all the time they don't short Nissan and companies like them they look at basketcase companies, the idea supporting brexit helps them in this is for the fairies.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 17, 2020 13:11:56 GMT
It's not the speculating that's the issue (well it is in a way) its the subsequent influence to get the desired outcome and the complete disregard for the wider consequences But Sheikh I'm sure that Farage for instance would be and was in favour of a deal, perhaps the Canadian one.He was against the WA because it was incompatible with a deal. I don't know about Rees Mogg but I'd imagine that he is in favour of a deal , whilst "investing". Personally I think that it does actually distract from the issues that concern most people around Brexit and consequently do the left no favours. I don't think an argument that some people will/ are making money by speculating therefore we should stay in the EU holds much weight( I know that you ate not saying that). In my opinion we are where we are on respect of deals because the EU won't treat us like a truly independent country, and Boris made the mistake of signing up to Remainer May's withdrawal agreement....for whatever reasons. Is there any aspect of the country in your eyes which isn't the fault of the Left, Remainers, the EU etc, or does them no favours Could it simply be that Brexit is fundamentally a position the UK finds itself in because the Tory Party was terrified of being split on an issue which the vast majority of people in the country didn't give a shit about, and will soon go back to not giving a shit about?! A general feeling towards Europe which was amply demonstrated by its lowly position on the list of things which really mattered to people ten years ago, ie before the dog whistles started about patriotism, sovereignty and immigration. But you're right, nobody is saying that "some people will/ are making money by speculating therefore we should stay in the EU". So why even bother bringing that up as a point, other than for the usual straw man purposes? As far as I can see, anyone raising that as an issue is doing so purely to point out the "fiddling while Rome burns". I realise 'twas ever thus, but that doesn't invalidate the point about making capital (political and financial) out of what even the most ardent Brexiteers acknowledge will be a substantial period of economic harm (and, by extension, to public services) that the country is about to suffer. If anything, the EU has treated us all along as an independent country, as we are about to finally become if no deal is the final outcome. It was our choice to become one, not something that was imposed on us by the EU. The never-ending claims about being treated unfairly, bullied, negotiating in bad faith and all that nonsense was only ever little more than frustration at the failure of the UK's "have-cake-and-eat-it" approach. Many of the Brexiteers on here will be quite delighted by that outcome, as has been shown by the response already. So, why that is a cause to complain further about the EU is a bit odd, since they have effectively given the Brexiteers on here precisely what they wanted!
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 17, 2020 13:14:08 GMT
When you say remember I think you mean you just made up, I posted many times most of the payment was for the transition period, also said it was right we paid genuine liabilities of uk for salaries, pensions etc. You don't seem to understand that advice you don't legally have to pay something does not make it illegal. Interesting you consider paying fees to be a member of the EU expensive nice to see you got there in the end You’re splitting hairs over the legality/illegal issue. The truth is we’ve coughed up practically all of it now! If the payment is as you claim we didn’t have to pay it surely you Tories won’t get any monies back as an overpayment? I remember many Tories in Parliament saying the monies will be a bargaining chip in our favour? Another Tory lie! Some bargaining chip in our favour now? Haha! All of that money was signed up to as part of the WA. It's legally committed. We could go to court to argue the toss. We'd lose and end up paying more in costs. None of it is coming back. Even the Tories know that, even if saying otherwise plays well with Brexiteers.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 17, 2020 13:34:31 GMT
But Sheikh I'm sure that Farage for instance would be and was in favour of a deal, perhaps the Canadian one.He was against the WA because it was incompatible with a deal. I don't know about Rees Mogg but I'd imagine that he is in favour of a deal , whilst "investing". Personally I think that it does actually distract from the issues that concern most people around Brexit and consequently do the left no favours. I don't think an argument that some people will/ are making money by speculating therefore we should stay in the EU holds much weight( I know that you ate not saying that). In my opinion we are where we are on respect of deals because the EU won't treat us like a truly independent country, and Boris made the mistake of signing up to Remainer May's withdrawal agreement....for whatever reasons. Is there any aspect of the country in your eyes which isn't the fault of the Left, Remainers, the EU etc, or does them no favours Could it simply be that Brexit is fundamentally a position the UK finds itself in because the Tory Party was terrified of being split on an issue which the vast majority of people in the country didn't give a shit about, and will soon go back to not giving a shit about?! A general feeling towards Europe which was amply demonstrated by its lowly position on the list of things which really mattered to people ten years ago, ie before the dog whistles started about patriotism, sovereignty and immigration. But you're right, nobody is saying that "some people will/ are making money by speculating therefore we should stay in the EU". So why even bother bringing that up as a point, other than for the usual straw man purposes? As far as I can see, anyone raising that as an issue is doing so purely to point out the "fiddling while Rome burns". I realise 'twas ever thus, but that doesn't invalidate the point about making capital (political and financial) out of what even the most ardent Brexiteers acknowledge will be a substantial period of economic harm (and, by extension, to public services) that the country is about to suffer. If anything, the EU has treated us all along as an independent country, as we are about to finally become if no deal is the final outcome. It was our choice to become one, not something that was imposed on us by the EU. The never-ending claims about being treated unfairly, bullied, negotiating in bad faith and all that nonsense was only ever little more than frustration at the failure of the UK's "have-cake-and-eat-it" approach. Many of the Brexiteers on here will be quite delighted by that outcome, as has been shown by the response already. So, why that is a cause to complain further about the EU is a bit odd, since they have effectively given the Brexiteers on here precisely what they wanted! Those who think that they speak for the Left have badly let down the working class in failing to argue for Brexit and pontificating about many issues that are not priorities for the working class...giving voters , such as those in Stoke on Trent, no where to go but to the Tories.....but carry on regardless if it makes you feel better....but don't expect to win over the electorate. The EU have not negotiated in good faith and were part of the crusade to overturn the result of the referendum from the outset.
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Oct 17, 2020 16:55:07 GMT
You’re splitting hairs over the legality/illegal issue. The truth is we’ve coughed up practically all of it now! If the payment is as you claim we didn’t have to pay it surely you Tories won’t get any monies back as an overpayment? I remember many Tories in Parliament saying the monies will be a bargaining chip in our favour? Another Tory lie! Some bargaining chip in our favour now? Haha! No I am not splitting hairs, suggest you go back again and read what I have written. And again we haven't paid up practically all of the money all we have paid is the ongoing EU membership fees, this was payable if we stayed and is paid during the transition period as we still effectively continue as members, the EU wanted to extend and extend the transition period and aided and abetted by Bercow and all would have done. The remainder will if it is paid at all be done over the next 40 something years, if there is no trade deal, then.there is no WA and no divorce deal so its all in play. Are you suggesting I read all your right wing drivel? Can you please let me off Vols 1-497? You cannot be so heartless and cruel to make me read the lot?😢
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Oct 17, 2020 18:43:00 GMT
Is there any aspect of the country in your eyes which isn't the fault of the Left, Remainers, the EU etc, or does them no favours Could it simply be that Brexit is fundamentally a position the UK finds itself in because the Tory Party was terrified of being split on an issue which the vast majority of people in the country didn't give a shit about, and will soon go back to not giving a shit about?! A general feeling towards Europe which was amply demonstrated by its lowly position on the list of things which really mattered to people ten years ago, ie before the dog whistles started about patriotism, sovereignty and immigration. But you're right, nobody is saying that "some people will/ are making money by speculating therefore we should stay in the EU". So why even bother bringing that up as a point, other than for the usual straw man purposes? As far as I can see, anyone raising that as an issue is doing so purely to point out the "fiddling while Rome burns". I realise 'twas ever thus, but that doesn't invalidate the point about making capital (political and financial) out of what even the most ardent Brexiteers acknowledge will be a substantial period of economic harm (and, by extension, to public services) that the country is about to suffer. If anything, the EU has treated us all along as an independent country, as we are about to finally become if no deal is the final outcome. It was our choice to become one, not something that was imposed on us by the EU. The never-ending claims about being treated unfairly, bullied, negotiating in bad faith and all that nonsense was only ever little more than frustration at the failure of the UK's "have-cake-and-eat-it" approach. Many of the Brexiteers on here will be quite delighted by that outcome, as has been shown by the response already. So, why that is a cause to complain further about the EU is a bit odd, since they have effectively given the Brexiteers on here precisely what they wanted! Those who think that they speak for the Left have badly let down the working class in failing to argue for Brexit and pontificating about many issues that are not priorities for the working class...giving voters , such as those in Stoke on Trent, no where to go but to the Tories.....but carry on regardless if it makes you feel better....but don't expect to win over the electorate. The EU have not negotiated in good faith and were part of the crusade to overturn the result of the referendum from the outset. For years you have been saying about everything that's wrong with the EU and then claim that they have not negotiated in good faith. I think it was pretty clear from pre-referendum days that the EU was always going to protect the integrity of the single market and its members if the UK were to leave. Don't forget it's the UK Government who has announced it will break international law - that drags us into the gutter on the global reputational stakes far more than any supposed failure on the part of the EU to negotiate in good faith-perhaps we should take the EU to court if it's so outrageous? I did not reply to your earlier post that Brexit and the pandemic are two separate issues. The government had the option to extend the transition period until the impact of Covid had diminished but chose to push ahead. I suggest that makes the impact of a potential no-deal very relevant in the context of a nation wrestling with the economic impact of the virus. Don't forget that the government's own forecasts for the impact of no-deal have always been for a significant short-term negative impact on the economy. Can the UK really afford that right now, when it is telling areas moving into the very high risk category that it cannot afford to give the areas any more money? We are staring at significant unemployment in the near future and some very bleak prospects for individuals and families . A no-deal scenario right now can only make that situation worse. In the event of no deal Brexiters will claim it to be the fault of the EU/ remoaners and of course now businesses -Businesses who have been somewhat distracted trying to stay afloat in the pandemic and could be forgiven for not actually focussing on preparedness for a no-deal when Johnson has always boasted of his confidence in getting a deal. No, this government and those Brexiters who support its decision to push the nation to a potential no-deal in the midst of the pandemic are wholly responsible for the hardships which could be felt directly as a result , perhaps just for once, they could take some responsibility for their actions amongst the lies and broken promises which line the road to Brexit?
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 17, 2020 19:19:05 GMT
No I am not splitting hairs, suggest you go back again and read what I have written. And again we haven't paid up practically all of the money all we have paid is the ongoing EU membership fees, this was payable if we stayed and is paid during the transition period as we still effectively continue as members, the EU wanted to extend and extend the transition period and aided and abetted by Bercow and all would have done. The remainder will if it is paid at all be done over the next 40 something years, if there is no trade deal, then.there is no WA and no divorce deal so its all in play. Are you suggesting I read all your right wing drivel? Can you please let me off Vols 1-497? You cannot be so heartless and cruel to make me read the lot?😢 That was probably much funnier in your head, regardless of being a conservative voter there is nothing right wing about brexit or what I have written, its almost like you still dont understand why people voted for brexit......
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 17, 2020 19:35:43 GMT
Those who think that they speak for the Left have badly let down the working class in failing to argue for Brexit and pontificating about many issues that are not priorities for the working class...giving voters , such as those in Stoke on Trent, no where to go but to the Tories.....but carry on regardless if it makes you feel better....but don't expect to win over the electorate. The EU have not negotiated in good faith and were part of the crusade to overturn the result of the referendum from the outset. For years you have been saying about everything that's wrong with the EU and then claim that they have not negotiated in good faith. I think it was pretty clear from pre-referendum days that the EU was always going to protect the integrity of the single market and its members if the UK were to leave. Don't forget it's the UK Government who has announced it will break international law - that drags us into the gutter on the global reputational stakes far more than any supposed failure on the part of the EU to negotiate in good faith-perhaps we should take the EU to court if it's so outrageous? I did not reply to your earlier post that Brexit and the pandemic are two separate issues. The government had the option to extend the transition period until the impact of Covid had diminished but chose to push ahead. I suggest that makes the impact of a potential no-deal very relevant in the context of a nation wrestling with the economic impact of the virus. Don't forget that the government's own forecasts for the impact of no-deal have always been for a significant short-term negative impact on the economy. Can the UK really afford that right now, when it is telling areas moving into the very high risk category that it cannot afford to give the areas any more money? We are staring at significant unemployment in the near future and some very bleak prospects for individuals and families . A no-deal scenario right now can only make that situation worse. In the event of no deal Brexiters will claim it to be the fault of the EU/ remoaners and of course now businesses -Businesses who have been somewhat distracted trying to stay afloat in the pandemic and could be forgiven for not actually focussing on preparedness for a no-deal when Johnson has always boasted of his confidence in getting a deal. No, this government and those Brexiters who support its decision to push the nation to a potential no-deal in the midst of the pandemic are wholly responsible for the hardships which could be felt directly as a result , perhaps just for once, they could take some responsibility for their actions amongst the lies and broken promises which line the road to Brexit? Obviously I don't agree Foghorn. I don't need to repeat my reasons in detail as you say you have been aware of them for years. I held those views before the referendum was even on the agenda and I am more convinced now. Presumably it is possible for a country not to be in the EU and that is what the electorate unexpectedly chose. It seems that Remainers are finding it really difficult to come to terms with it. The Coronavirus is a separate issue, in itself non political but it seems that Remainers now want to use it to get a ( never-ending?) extension. Despite the political and economic importance of Brexit other issues and challenges face this country and other countries...everything isn't about Brexit. I believe 100% that it is indeed the EU who have been unreasonable in the negotiations, as far as I am aware...of the facts....it is very hard for them.to come to terms with our leaving. Of course there will be disruption. I'm now beginning to think that because of the personalities involved in the top down, centralist,anti democratic organisation " they " might in fact be working towards ensuring that there is total chaos on 1 January 2021 so that the UK can be punished. It doesn't have to be like that. Funnily enough unlike my fellow leaver, Vokeswagen, I would not call the EU a nasty organisation. One employee of the EU that I know is one of the kindest, most honest men that you could meet. Simply a group of power hungry people with a vision for Europe of which I don't agree...Nothing wrong with havingthat vision....SimplyI don't agreewith it..in particular I don't agree with the imposition of that vision without consent. I'm not particularly a Johnson fan, but those of us , including Brexiteers of Stoke-on-Trent, had no choice but to vote for him...a failure of the Left. Having said that he and Frost seem to be doing a sterling job in the circumstances. The remaining accusation about international law and our reputation is nonsense...quite the opposite...thise people who know what's going on will respect our resolve in leaving. Actually the UK has never wholeheartedly agreed to the project, never Euro enthusiasts....until some sort of fanatical emotional attachment has been engendered through Brexit. It is inevitable in my opinion that we would have to make a significant decision in the future in respect of the Euro...the unminuted Eurogroup, as I'm sure you know are controlling the project,steered by France and Germany and in their interests , particularly in continental ( particularly Eastern) Europe. We don't fit easily in that. Are you in favour of joining the Euro, complete freedom of movement across Europe and the agricultural, industrial, foreign , fisheries policies being decided in Brussels?... I'm not. A good win today eh?
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 17, 2020 19:48:42 GMT
Are you suggesting I read all your right wing drivel? Can you please let me off Vols 1-497? You cannot be so heartless and cruel to make me read the lot?😢 That was probably much funnier in your head, regardless of being a conservative voter there is nothing right wing about brexit or what I have written, its almost like you still dont understand why people voted for brexit...... Yep this one always makes me laugh when modern liberals refer to Brexit as some far right, Hitler esc movement. You know 2020 is a fucked up time. Decent, working Brits vote for freedom, democracy, control of our own laws while voting against a corrupt outsourced government of corporate elites in Brussels and Germany that are about as close to the working man in Rotherham as Hugh Grant.. And yet they are shot down and abused by corporate elites and wealthy Middle class white kids as they sip their soy latte in the vegan caf in Hackney...ironically the latter two also hate each other because the latter of the two hates rich white people, despite being rich and white themselves. What a fuck up of a society we are in. Brexit is a great thing and a historical example of people rising up against a system that's failed them. How that makes someone a fascist is beyond all good reason...and actually the most fascist manifesto of all was that of the "new left" which demanded that we ignore the democratic vote of the people and remain in the EU. Thankfully, these tossers got obliterated in December's election and were on the end of one of the most resounding, humiliating defeats in British political history.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2020 19:59:56 GMT
For years you have been saying about everything that's wrong with the EU and then claim that they have not negotiated in good faith. I think it was pretty clear from pre-referendum days that the EU was always going to protect the integrity of the single market and its members if the UK were to leave. Don't forget it's the UK Government who has announced it will break international law - that drags us into the gutter on the global reputational stakes far more than any supposed failure on the part of the EU to negotiate in good faith-perhaps we should take the EU to court if it's so outrageous? I did not reply to your earlier post that Brexit and the pandemic are two separate issues. The government had the option to extend the transition period until the impact of Covid had diminished but chose to push ahead. I suggest that makes the impact of a potential no-deal very relevant in the context of a nation wrestling with the economic impact of the virus. Don't forget that the government's own forecasts for the impact of no-deal have always been for a significant short-term negative impact on the economy. Can the UK really afford that right now, when it is telling areas moving into the very high risk category that it cannot afford to give the areas any more money? We are staring at significant unemployment in the near future and some very bleak prospects for individuals and families . A no-deal scenario right now can only make that situation worse. In the event of no deal Brexiters will claim it to be the fault of the EU/ remoaners and of course now businesses -Businesses who have been somewhat distracted trying to stay afloat in the pandemic and could be forgiven for not actually focussing on preparedness for a no-deal when Johnson has always boasted of his confidence in getting a deal. No, this government and those Brexiters who support its decision to push the nation to a potential no-deal in the midst of the pandemic are wholly responsible for the hardships which could be felt directly as a result , perhaps just for once, they could take some responsibility for their actions amongst the lies and broken promises which line the road to Brexit? Obviously I don't agree Foghorn. I don't need to repeat my reasons in detail as you say you have been aware of them for years. I held those views before the referendum was even on the agenda and I am more convinced now. Presumably it is possible for a country not to be in the EU and that is what the electorate unexpectedly chose. It seems that Remainers are finding it really difficult to come to terms with it. The Coronavirus is a separate issue, in itself non political but it seems that Remainers now want to use it to get a ( never-ending?) extension. Despite the political and economic importance of Brexit other issues and challenges face this country and other countries...everything isn't about Brexit. I believe 100% that it is indeed the EU who have been unreasonable in the negotiations, as far as I am aware...of the facts....it is very hard for them.to come to terms with our leaving. Of course there will be disruption. I'm now beginning to think that because of the personalities involved in the top down, centralist,anti democratic organisation " they " might in fact be working towards ensuring that there is total chaos on 1 January 2021 so that the UK can be punished. It doesn't have to be like that. Funnily enough unlike my fellow leaver, Vokeswagen, I would not call the EU a nasty organisation. One employee of the EU that I know is one of the kindest, most honest men that you could meet. Simply a group of power hungry people with a vision for Europe of which I don't agree...Nothing wrong with havingthat vision....SimplyI don't agreewith it..in particular I don't agree with the imposition of that vision without consent. I'm not particularly a Johnson fan, but those of us , including Brexiteers of Stoke-on-Trent, had no choice but to vote for him...a failure of the Left. Having said that he and Frost seem to be doing a sterling job in the circumstances. The remaining accusation about international law and our reputation is nonsense...quite the opposite...thise people who know what's going on will respect our resolve in leaving. Actually the UK has never wholeheartedly agreed to the project, never Euro enthusiasts....until some sort of fanatical emotional attachment has been engendered through Brexit. It is inevitable in my opinion that we would have to make a significant decision in the future in respect of the Euro...the unminuted Eurogroup, as I'm sure you know are controlling the project,steered by France and Germany and in their interests , particularly in continental ( particularly Eastern) Europe. We don't fit easily in that. Are you in favour of joining the Euro, complete freedom of movement across Europe and the agricultural, industrial, foreign , fisheries policies being decided in Brussels?... I'm not. A good win today eh? You have a very pompous writing style for a man with a school leavers reading comprehension.
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