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Post by trickydicky73 on Apr 19, 2017 14:29:28 GMT
John Mann talking about a "Peoples's Brexit" on Sky. Mentioned Sports Direct employing 3,000 Poles and not setting on locals. I would have thought most Labour voters would be against that? Where did the EU get the reputation of being a bastion for workers' rights?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Apr 19, 2017 14:38:37 GMT
Does anybody think this might backfire on May or is she as safe as houses? In my opinion that is a distinct possibility. I thought that she was doing ok on the Brexit issue, but of course things go on in politics which we are not aware of.....I wonder if there is some mileage in the implications of the electoral fraud question, as Huddy and others have suggested. For me , she has resurrected the Brexit issues again , and may end up in roughly the same position seats wise....but possibly given The Lib Dems air with their anti democratic campaign...., let Sturgeon proclaim her Scottish independence agenda, Labour have little to lose by promising the earth, even if they could not deliver econnomically, UKIP have been let down by infighting and the ridiculous effort by their leader. The turn out / agendas could be different in National elections compared to Referendums...the electorate cannot be taken for granted. Churchill was shocked to lose the post war election. I don't think that she will lose but I am not sure what she will gain.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 14:54:02 GMT
Tim farron “If you want a Britain that is open, tolerant and united, this is your chance.” Says the man who won't answer a question on whether homosexuality is a sin
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 15:11:14 GMT
Tim farron “If you want a Britain that is open, tolerant and united, this is your chance.” Says the man who won't answer a question on whether homosexuality is a sin Would really sum the state of young 'Liberals' up if they voted for that pillock.
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Post by Gods on Apr 19, 2017 15:20:33 GMT
Tim farron “If you want a Britain that is open, tolerant and united, this is your chance.” Says the man who won't answer a question on whether homosexuality is a sin Farron has a big problem with this. For sure if Nick Clegg was still the leader I'd be be getting in bed with the LibDems. Either way I expect we will hear shortly from Tim Farron that it is not a sin, he surely can't leave this one hanging or his 'liberal' credentials are in tatters.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Apr 19, 2017 15:22:59 GMT
Isn't this really a second referendum? I have a feeling the Remainers will come out in force to vote anything but Tory just to scupper Brexit. That's the clarion call from Tony Blair. A Cross Party party of anti hard Brexit. Which means anti Brexit. I find it slightly odd because there are more leavers then remainers.
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Post by salopstick on Apr 19, 2017 15:28:02 GMT
The liberals will double their seats. I can't see many tories losing theirs. Labour are in a position where a 1 to 7 point swing loses lots of seats
I believe most people who voted remain although still wishing to remain accept the vote. It's only a small minority of those that are still protesting. Not enough imo to change many seats.
The polls suggest by some distance that they trust the tories more than labour to negotiate Brexit. This leads me to believe people will switch to Tory to see Brexit through.
It means the next government should see Brexit and the aftermath leaving 2022 a gift for labour if they can get their act together AND the tories fuck up Brexit. If this happens we could get a labour government in 2022 which is three more years than they imagined. Unless labours plan was to keep sinking through to 2018 and stage a coup to get a decent leader before 2020. If the tories make a success of Brexit labour are fucked until 2025
All a knock effect of labour choosing the wrong brother and allowing Cameron after a decent coalition to win again on his own
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Post by Gods on Apr 19, 2017 15:40:14 GMT
Does anybody think this might backfire on May or is she as safe as houses? In my opinion that is a distinct possibility. I thought that she was doing ok on the Brexit issue, but of course things go on in politics which we are not aware of.....I wonder if there is some mileage in the implications of the electoral fraud question, as Huddy and others have suggested. For me , she has resurrected the Brexit issues again , and may end up in roughly the same position seats wise....but possibly given The Lib Dems air with their anti democratic campaign...., let Sturgeon proclaim her Scottish independence agenda, Labour have little to lose by promising the earth, even if they could not deliver econnomically, UKIP have been let down by infighting and the ridiculous effort by their leader. The turn out / agendas could be different in National elections compared to Referendums...the electorate cannot be taken for granted. Churchill was shocked to lose the post war election. I don't think that she will lose but I am not sure what she will gain. It's an interesting question, the turnout for the EU referendum was 33.5 million, the 2015 General Election saw about 30.6 million people vote and I would expect that figure to be a bit lower than that this time since that was the highest for 20 years and many people may consider this to be one election too many. So my question is about the make up of General Election voters, when you take away the 4 million or so extra voters at EU Referendum time, is it likely to be a more pro-remain electorate and therefore potentially symptahetic to pro-remain candidates? My supposition is that it will be and the lost 4 million will be more from the Brexit camp than the Remain camp. Either way my guess is that Terry May will increase her majority but perhaps not by as much as is hoped partly at least for the reason above.
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Post by thingscouldbemarvellous on Apr 19, 2017 15:43:56 GMT
You should be all for this election then , shouldn't you ? but you are not ......odd reasoning from you if you really think things are so bad and you would like to see a change ? I'd like to see change but what's wrong with the Tories sticking to their own manifesto commitment of Fixed Term parliaments? You can't believe a word they put in their manifestoes because they change them at will! The only good thing is that George Osborne is not standing! Poor thing! How will he struggle on with just Five Jobs? So nicholasjalcock which Manifesto was that in then? Keeping in mind the Fixed Term Parliament Act was put in place in 2011 largely to appease the Lib Dems as they were part of a Coalition Government at the time, and the FTPA would prevent the ruling party of a coalition from calling elections willy nilly without approval if the parties in coalition were not getting along. The 2010 and 2015 Manifestos do not mention the FTPA This is also worth noting, from the terms of the Fixed Term Parliament Act that you keep quoting as set in stone: Section 2 of the Act also provides for two ways in which a general election can be held before the end of this five-year period: If the House of Commons resolves "That this House has no confidence in Her Majesty's Government", an early general election is held, unless the House of Commons subsequently resolves "That this House has confidence in Her Majesty's Government". This second resolution must be made within fourteen days of the first. If the House of Commons, with the support of two-thirds of its total membership (including vacant seats), resolves "That there shall be an early parliamentary general election".
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Post by salopstick on Apr 19, 2017 15:44:21 GMT
John McDonnell on how to win votes:
"there would be a number of radical policies to inspire the electorate, including a fairer tax system that meant big corporations and the rich defined as those earning more than £70,000-£80,000 a year – contribute more."
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Apr 19, 2017 15:55:37 GMT
It's an interesting question, the turnout for the EU referendum was 33.5 million, the 2015 General Election saw about 30.6 million people vote and I would expect that figure to be a bit lower than that this time since that was the highest for 20 years and many people may consider this to be one election too many. So my question is about the make up of General Election voters, when you take away the 4 million or so extra voters at EU Referendum time, is it likely to be a more pro-remain electorate and therefore potentially symptahetic to pro-remain candidates? My supposition is that it will be and the lost 4 million will be more from the Brexit camp than the Remain camp. Either way my guess is that Terry May will increase her majority but perhaps not by as much as is hoped partly at least for the reason above. The turnout will be lower, and the voters who don't vote will more than likely be people who voted for Brexit, but... Tories who voted for Brexit will vote Tory. Tories who voted Remain will still vote Tory (They only voted Remain 'cos they still wanted the cheap labour to clean their homes & wash their cars. They're not going to abandon Tory policies & give a vote to a party who want to help the great unwashed) Labour voters who voted Remain will still vote Labour, although some will break off & vote LibDem. Labour voters who voted for Brexit will have no-one who represents them & vote for no-one. So the Tories will gain some seats, LibDems might gain a couple of seats, Labour will lose lots of seats.
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Post by Gods on Apr 19, 2017 16:21:03 GMT
It's an interesting question, the turnout for the EU referendum was 33.5 million, the 2015 General Election saw about 30.6 million people vote and I would expect that figure to be a bit lower than that this time since that was the highest for 20 years and many people may consider this to be one election too many. So my question is about the make up of General Election voters, when you take away the 4 million or so extra voters at EU Referendum time, is it likely to be a more pro-remain electorate and therefore potentially symptahetic to pro-remain candidates? My supposition is that it will be and the lost 4 million will be more from the Brexit camp than the Remain camp. Either way my guess is that Terry May will increase her majority but perhaps not by as much as is hoped partly at least for the reason above. The turnout will be lower, and the voters who don't vote will more than likely be people who voted for Brexit, but... Tories who voted for Brexit will vote Tory. Tories who voted Remain will still vote Tory (They only voted Remain 'cos they still wanted the cheap labour to clean their homes & wash their cars. They're not going to abandon Tory policies & give a vote to a party who want to help the great unwashed) Labour voters who voted Remain will still vote Labour, although some will break off & vote LibDem. Labour voters who voted for Brexit will have no-one who represents them & vote for no-one. So the Tories will gain some seats, LibDems might gain a couple of seats, Labour will lose lots of seats. I think that's about right. One thing you can be certain of is the Tories and their advisors will have done the polling and done the maths and they expect to make gains and they most likely will. The other advantage I can see it will give them is that the next election will then be 5 years away rather than 3 years away, if you accept there will be some inevitable fall out from Brexit then they would hope to be the other side of that in 2022 whereas they will still be in the middle of it in 2020 if you see what I mean.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Apr 19, 2017 17:12:07 GMT
John McDonnell on how to win votes: "there would be a number of radical policies to inspire the electorate, including a fairer tax system that meant big corporations and the rich defined as those earning more than £70,000-£80,000 a year – contribute more." Probably their turn after 7 vicious years of right wing austerity have hit those with nothing the hardest.
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Apr 19, 2017 17:18:38 GMT
The turnout will be lower, and the voters who don't vote will more than likely be people who voted for Brexit, but... Tories who voted for Brexit will vote Tory. Tories who voted Remain will still vote Tory (They only voted Remain 'cos they still wanted the cheap labour to clean their homes & wash their cars. They're not going to abandon Tory policies & give a vote to a party who want to help the great unwashed) Labour voters who voted Remain will still vote Labour, although some will break off & vote LibDem. Labour voters who voted for Brexit will have no-one who represents them & vote for no-one. So the Tories will gain some seats, LibDems might gain a couple of seats, Labour will lose lots of seats. I think that's about right. One thing you can be certain of is the Tories and their advisors will have done the polling and done the maths and they expect to make gains and they most likely will. The other advantage I can see it will give them is that the next election will then be 5 years away rather than 3 years away, if you accept there will be some inevitable fall out from Brexit then they would hope to be the other side of that in 2022 whereas they will still be in the middle of it in 2020 if you see what I mean. By not having an election until 2022 if the Brexit divorce goes badly they'll have a couple of years to airbrush it into history. It will also give them an extra 2 years to get an E.U. trade deal and maybe one or two others. Everyone is assuming M/s May will be there to face the music? Was Eden there to face the Suez music in 1959? Was Macmillan there to face the music in 1964? Was Margaret Thatcher there to face the music in 1992? Is Cameron there to face the music in 2017? Don't worry, M/s May will be long gone and another Tory clone will be installed. Cloning Tories is like cloning sheep except sheep have more brains!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 17:24:45 GMT
I think that's about right. One thing you can be certain of is the Tories and their advisors will have done the polling and done the maths and they expect to make gains and they most likely will. The other advantage I can see it will give them is that the next election will then be 5 years away rather than 3 years away, if you accept there will be some inevitable fall out from Brexit then they would hope to be the other side of that in 2022 whereas they will still be in the middle of it in 2020 if you see what I mean. By not having an election until 2022 if the Brexit divorce goes badly they'll have a couple of years to airbrush it into history. It will also give them an extra 2 years to get an E.U. trade deal and maybe one or two others. Everyone is assuming M/s May will be there to face the music? Was Eden there to face the Suez music in 1959? Was Macmillan there to face the music in 1964? Was Margaret Thatcher there to face the music in 1992? Is Cameron there to face the music in 2017? Don't worry, M/s May will be long gone and another Tory clone will be installed. Cloning Tories is like cloning sheep except sheep have more brains! Unlike chickens eh ?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Apr 19, 2017 17:25:37 GMT
A bit off topic , and whilst I am not a conspiracy theorist I am sceptical of most politicians and those who seek power. Has Theresa been leaned on from above, to the effect that " Brexit cannot happen , Free movement and the great vision of a United Europe must continue" I don't know a lot about the Kalergi theory......can anyone on here enlighten me? As I understand it, he wanted Europe to be totally " mixed race" and to include an influx of " people from the Eastern borders of Europe" so that the nations of Europe would lose their identity and be easy to control. As I say I don't profess to know a lot about it, but Wikipedia makes interesting reading. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_von_Coudenhove-Kalergi"The man of the future will be of mixed race. Today's races and classes will gradually disappear owing to the vanishing of space, time, and prejudice. The Eurasian-Negroid race of the future, similar in its appearance to the Ancient Egyptians, will replace the diversity of peoples with a diversity of individuals". He was a member of Humanitas , a Viennese freemason Lodge, part of www.clipsas.com/en/english-clipsas-written-statement-ecosoc-2015/and is regarded as one of the " thinkers" and originators of the vision of a United Europe.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 17:28:05 GMT
When you have seen one clone , you have seen them all .....better the devil you know .....
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Apr 19, 2017 17:47:43 GMT
When you have seen one clone , you have seen them all .....better the devil you know ..... I couldn't agree more! Theresa May the she devil!
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Post by felonious on Apr 19, 2017 18:07:50 GMT
John Mann talking about a "Peoples's Brexit" on Sky. Mentioned Sports Direct employing 3,000 Poles and not setting on locals. I would have thought most Labour voters would be against that? Where did the EU get the reputation of being a bastion for workers' rights? It's not Port Sunlight is it?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-35604776
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Post by lommack on Apr 19, 2017 18:13:14 GMT
John McDonnell on how to win votes: "there would be a number of radical policies to inspire the electorate, including a fairer tax system that meant big corporations and the rich defined as those earning more than £70,000-£80,000 a year – contribute more." Probably their turn after 7 vicious years of right wing austerity have hit those with nothing the hardest. Indeed, I think this is one of the most important elections there has been in a generation. A big tory majority will spell disaster for the future of this country. Swiveled eyed right wing loons will be given total freedom to build their right wing utopia without any checks and balances, especially now that we are out of Europe. That means no protection for; The NHS, public services, workers rights (including sick pay, holiday pay maternity/paternity rights, redundancy rights, right to representation in the workplace), trade unions laws, the list is endless. And this lot would sell their own grandmother for a fiver, just imagine the promises Fox, Davies and Johnson will make to some foreign despot to land some grubby trade deal. Your rights mean fuck all to them. All these rights have been hard fought for and these bastards want them back. Corbyn has got his hands full with a sycophantic, lipspittle right wing press ( I heard today, on radio 5, that ALL voters in Sunderland want a "safe pair of hands" with May, jesus you couldn't make this shit up) The rabid right are slavering at the mouth, they can't wait to get their teeth into us. Corbyn is offering an alternative and you can only hope, for the future of this country, if the normal working man/women listens to him and not all the white noise that surrounds him, he might have a chance.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Apr 19, 2017 18:16:56 GMT
John Mann talking about a "Peoples's Brexit" on Sky. Mentioned Sports Direct employing 3,000 Poles and not setting on locals. I would have thought most Labour voters would be against that? Where did the EU get the reputation of being a bastion for workers' rights? It's not Port Sunlight is it?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-35604776
Could be. That's what most Brexiteers are against, the ridiculous amounts of people that have come in, in such a short space of time. Whether this will actually be addressed is another matter, of course. Mann's hardly right wing, and he has stated concerns many times.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 18:21:17 GMT
John McDonnell on how to win votes: "there would be a number of radical policies to inspire the electorate, including a fairer tax system that meant big corporations and the rich defined as those earning more than £70,000-£80,000 a year – contribute more." I like McDonnell a lot as a Labour supporter but I must admit I read that today and immediately thought of 10 people at the company I work for who won't be voting Labour. I agree with the policy but the way he delivered it came across like a punishment, not a policy.
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Post by essexstokey on Apr 19, 2017 18:23:21 GMT
Isn't this really a second referendum? I have a feeling the Remainers will come out in force to vote anything but Tory just to scupper Brexit. That's the clarion call from Tony Blair. A Cross Party party of anti hard Brexit. Which means anti Brexit. I find it slightly odd because there are more leavers then remainers. 48% to 52% with a lot changing since the referendum id say its about 50/50, with younger a high % of remain and pensioners a large % leave. as a majority of parties are for brexit this 50% will be split amongst them however if 1 party comes out and says we want to stay in they would get a majority of the remain voters and also pick up some of there loyal supporters who voted brexit which would give them a higher % what Blair is saying is support the MP that will vote against a hard brexit and vote this way in parliament hence giving them 48% of vote which would undoubtedly give them the seat especially where the Brexit vote is split in a seat
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Apr 19, 2017 18:27:03 GMT
John McDonnell on how to win votes: "there would be a number of radical policies to inspire the electorate, including a fairer tax system that meant big corporations and the rich defined as those earning more than £70,000-£80,000 a year – contribute more." Probably their turn after 7 vicious years of right wing austerity have hit those with nothing the hardest. Sadly the working class Tories on here are perfectly ok with all this. Until the inevitable day arrives when they come for their jobs, savings, homes and pensions. Thick doesn't even begin to describe them.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Apr 19, 2017 18:27:22 GMT
There was no Hard or Soft Brexit option on the ballot paper. If they wanted one they should have insisted on it. Of course, most MP's completely misjudged the mood of large parts of the country and thought Remain would piss it.
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Post by felonious on Apr 19, 2017 18:28:48 GMT
John McDonnell on how to win votes: "there would be a number of radical policies to inspire the electorate, including a fairer tax system that meant big corporations and the rich defined as those earning more than £70,000-£80,000 a year – contribute more." I like McDonnell a lot as a Labour supporter but I must admit I read that today and immediately thought of 10 people at the company I work for who won't be voting Labour. I agree with the policy but the way he delivered it came across like a punishment, not a policy. A person in that bracket with two or three children has already been hammered by the withdrawal of child benefit for earners over £50,000. Their marginal rate of tax is eye watering.
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Post by salopstick on Apr 19, 2017 18:37:19 GMT
Probably their turn after 7 vicious years of right wing austerity have hit those with nothing the hardest. Indeed, I think this is one of the most important elections there has been in a generation. A big tory majority will spell disaster for the future of this country. Swiveled eyed right wing loons will be given total freedom to build their right wing utopia without any checks and balances, especially now that we are out of Europe. That means no protection for; The NHS, public services, workers rights (including sick pay, holiday pay maternity/paternity rights, redundancy rights, right to representation in the workplace), trade unions laws, the list is endless. And this lot would sell their own grandmother for a fiver, just imagine the promises Fox, Davies and Johnson will make to some foreign despot to land some grubby trade deal. Your rights mean fuck all to them. All these rights have been hard fought for and these bastards want them back. Corbyn has got his hands full with a sycophantic, lipspittle right wing press ( I heard today, on radio 5, that ALL voters in Sunderland want a "safe pair of hands" with May, jesus you couldn't make this shit up) The rabid right are slavering at the mouth, they can't wait to get their teeth into us. Corbyn is offering an alternative and you can only hope, for the future of this country, if the normal working man/women listens to him and not all the white noise that surrounds him, he might have a chance. I stopped reading at checks and balances I believe in a strong opposition because that's the checks and balances sorted regardless of which party governs. Corbyn is a joke outside his core support. I want a strong opposition and have banged that drum on here for years. Until labour galvanise in support of the working classes we will have the Tory government you all hate. While you have a leader throwing away his long held principles of the EU, alienating labour, we will not have an opposition
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Post by lordb on Apr 19, 2017 20:04:48 GMT
It's an interesting question, the turnout for the EU referendum was 33.5 million, the 2015 General Election saw about 30.6 million people vote and I would expect that figure to be a bit lower than that this time since that was the highest for 20 years and many people may consider this to be one election too many. So my question is about the make up of General Election voters, when you take away the 4 million or so extra voters at EU Referendum time, is it likely to be a more pro-remain electorate and therefore potentially symptahetic to pro-remain candidates? My supposition is that it will be and the lost 4 million will be more from the Brexit camp than the Remain camp. Either way my guess is that Terry May will increase her majority but perhaps not by as much as is hoped partly at least for the reason above. The turnout will be lower, and the voters who don't vote will more than likely be people who voted for Brexit, but... Tories who voted for Brexit will vote Tory. Tories who voted Remain will still vote Tory (They only voted Remain 'cos they still wanted the cheap labour to clean their homes & wash their cars. They're not going to abandon Tory policies & give a vote to a party who want to help the great unwashed) Labour voters who voted Remain will still vote Labour, although some will break off & vote LibDem. Labour voters who voted for Brexit will have no-one who represents them & vote for no-one. So the Tories will gain some seats, LibDems might gain a couple of seats, Labour will lose lots of seats. Who will the 2015 UKIP voters vote for?
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Post by harryburrows on Apr 19, 2017 20:11:13 GMT
Probably their turn after 7 vicious years of right wing austerity have hit those with nothing the hardest. Indeed, I think this is one of the most important elections there has been in a generation. A big tory majority will spell disaster for the future of this country. Swiveled eyed right wing loons will be given total freedom to build their right wing utopia without any checks and balances, especially now that we are out of Europe. That means no protection for; The NHS, public services, workers rights (including sick pay, holiday pay maternity/paternity rights, redundancy rights, right to representation in the workplace), trade unions laws, the list is endless. And this lot would sell their own grandmother for a fiver, just imagine the promises Fox, Davies and Johnson will make to some foreign despot to land some grubby trade deal. Your rights mean fuck all to them. All these rights have been hard fought for and these bastards want them back. Corbyn has got his hands full with a sycophantic, lipspittle right wing press ( I heard today, on radio 5, that ALL voters in Sunderland want a "safe pair of hands" with May, jesus you couldn't make this shit up) The rabid right are slavering at the mouth, they can't wait to get their teeth into us. Corbyn is offering an alternative and you can only hope, for the future of this country, if the normal working man/women listens to him and not all the white noise that surrounds him, he might have a chance. What a load of crap , workers rights such as holiday pay and sick pay etc existed long before we joined the EU and will continue long after we leave . The biggest attack on employment rights is the appalling use of zero hours contracts introduced during a socialist government and extensively used by labour councils up and down the country
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 20:26:14 GMT
When you have seen one clone , you have seen them all .....better the devil you know ..... I couldn't agree more! Theresa May the she devil! You seem to be taking this more frivolously than I am
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