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Post by desman2 on Dec 8, 2016 21:34:50 GMT
Sometimes its very difficult to debate with those who's only response is a label, or the latest trendiest ism or phobic. If you don't like it get back on the main board, ye'big G babyXx
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2016 21:34:52 GMT
There was a vote, more voted out than in, it's that simple. I have no problem with anyone who voted in, and indeed some cracking posters on here and a few friends of mine held that view. My problem is that it was a clear result and people did know what they wanted, whether you agree with them or not. Don't give people a vote and then say "ah, but.....". I am really proud to have voted out, and I did it without the instigation of the right wing press! It's not about voting out, that's the result and that is what should happen, What worries me is the total shut down of any debate about how we are going to leave. Anybody that dares to raise any concerns is immediately labeled as a remoaner, told they are undemocratic and told that they should put up or shut up (this includes Judges, MP's and 49% of the population) We have got an unelected prime minister who is trying to bypass over 200 yrs of democracy to to ensure that her version of brexit is enacted and she is expecting to do this without telling us one fucking detail of what she is negotiating. This is simply not right, I expect my MP to question everything because every decision affects me and my family and I certainly don't want a group of swiveled eyed Tories, in darkened rooms, to do this without any recourse at all. I suppose you could counter your may argument with gordon brown and david milliband signing the lisbon treaty, fully well knowing we would be surrendering laws to the EU political system without a referendum in the 1st place. Parliment will see the plan, so i don't understand why MP'S are still refusing to allow article 50 to be triggered other than trying to block a democratic vote. When you listen to the members of the EU speak you would assume it already has. 18 months left of 2 year exit and 6 months since the referendum.
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Post by lommack on Dec 8, 2016 22:02:46 GMT
MP's may eventually see a some sort plan, but will they be able to debate and vote on it without being called enemies of the nation?
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Dec 8, 2016 22:23:36 GMT
I've been through this before - but I'll try and make the point again :-) In OUR system of representative democracy you vote for an MP to represent your interests, NOT to follow your every wish. You give them licence, with your vote, to act and THINK on your behalf for 5 years. If he/she pisses you off FINE vote them out - that's the deal. No problem! I believe one of the UKIP leadership candidates (the one with the homosexual donkey issues) was campaigning on a ticket of change towards a "direct" form of democracy where your MP is merely delegated to carry out the wishes of his/her constituents and subject to recall if they disappoint. The problem with such systems is that they lead to a "tyranny of the majority" and not a democracy where everyone's voice gets heard and taken into account. I think you've confused the domestic 5 year political cycle with a once in 40 year referendum that changes the future of the United Kingdom. Even your own post says "to act and THINK on your behalf". Your behalf not theirs. To act on behalf of his constituents wishes regarding Brexit is to trigger Article 50, no? Anna Soubry's another. A prominent Remoaner who had the brass neck to say she was representing the "best interests" of her constituents when interviewed after the voting yesterday. She's the MP for Broxstowe, Nottingham. Broxstowe voted 55% to 45% to Leave with a 78% turnout. The "best interests" she mentions are what she considers to be "best interests", like staying in the EU! Anyway, not really surprising from Mr Farrelly not wanting to leave the EU....... A quick look at his wiki ... grammar school, Oxford reading fucking PPE, corporate finance with Barclays de Zoete Wedd then journalism with Reuters and deputy business editor with the Independent on Sunday, before joining The Observer as the City Editor.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2016 22:25:19 GMT
MP's may eventually see a some sort plan, but will they be able to debate and vote on it without being called enemies of the nation? I think they should be looking at it as workable, not necessarily perfect, but a plan which gives us as much stability as possible given the situation. I do think though, that regardless of the plan MP'S will try to thwart it. Not sure whether yesterday's vote on triggering article 50 is legally binding, but at least it will give the not so favourable MP'S a date to work towards to. Surely there will probably be a few tweaks here and there, but it is impossible to give an accurate plan when it comes to where we stand with the EU. They are trying to call our bluff and trying to make it look like a leap of faith. We don't know what has been discussed with other countries yet and under EU laws, probably not allowed to say either. Anyway, you had better hurry up and get one before there all gone. www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38257515
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Post by crapslinger on Dec 8, 2016 22:26:58 GMT
It's not about voting out, that's the result and that is what should happen, What worries me is the total shut down of any debate about how we are going to leave. Anybody that dares to raise any concerns is immediately labeled as a remoaner, told they are undemocratic and told that they should put up or shut up (this includes Judges, MP's and 49% of the population) We have got an unelected prime minister who is trying to bypass over 200 yrs of democracy to to ensure that her version of brexit is enacted and she is expecting to do this without telling us one fucking detail of what she is negotiating. This is simply not right, I expect my MP to question everything because every decision affects me and my family and I certainly don't want a group of swiveled eyed Tories, in darkened rooms, to do this without any recourse at all. I suppose you could counter your may argument with gordon brown and david milliband signing the lisbon treaty, fully well knowing we would be surrendering laws to the EU political system without a referendum in the 1st place. Parliment will see the plan, so i don't understand why MP'S are still refusing to allow article 50 to be triggered other than trying to block a democratic vote. When you listen to the members of the EU speak you would assume it already has. 18 months left of 2 year exit and 6 months since the referendum. The same Gordon Brown who was also an unelected PM, these so called well educated intellectual remoaners have the memory capacity of the common goldfish, the democratic liberal left I have deposited more intellect down the bog than these fcukers will ever accumulate in their sad PC obsessed existence, you lost girls the people have spoken at last your views are not important or relevant shame and all that
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Post by lommack on Dec 8, 2016 22:30:43 GMT
Claim in the small lounge Brian
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Dec 8, 2016 22:37:51 GMT
There was a vote, more voted out than in, it's that simple. I have no problem with anyone who voted in, and indeed some cracking posters on here and a few friends of mine held that view. My problem is that it was a clear result and people did know what they wanted, whether you agree with them or not. Don't give people a vote and then say "ah, but.....". I am really proud to have voted out, and I did it without the instigation of the right wing press! It's not about voting out, that's the result and that is what should happen, What worries me is the total shut down of any debate about how we are going to leave. Anybody that dares to raise any concerns is immediately labeled as a remoaner, told they are undemocratic and told that they should put up or shut up (this includes Judges, MP's and 49% of the population) We have got an unelected prime minister who is trying to bypass over 200 yrs of democracy to to ensure that her version of brexit is enacted and she is expecting to do this without telling us one fucking detail of what she is negotiating. This is simply not right, I expect my MP to question everything because every decision affects me and my family and I certainly don't want a group of swiveled eyed Tories, in darkened rooms, to do this without any recourse at all. "unelected prime minister" "a group of swiveled eyed Tories, in darkened rooms" What is that you're craving? Balanced debate? No you're not. You're just one of a thankfully small number of Left Leaners who, amazingly still think the referendum and now Brexit was and should be fought on traditional party political terms. You make me laugh. You're a protester not a democrat. Frothing at the keyboard because the Government at the moment is blue so everything is a dirty Tory Brexit fiasco.
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Post by lommack on Dec 8, 2016 22:42:39 GMT
It's not about voting out, that's the result and that is what should happen, What worries me is the total shut down of any debate about how we are going to leave. Anybody that dares to raise any concerns is immediately labeled as a remoaner, told they are undemocratic and told that they should put up or shut up (this includes Judges, MP's and 49% of the population) We have got an unelected prime minister who is trying to bypass over 200 yrs of democracy to to ensure that her version of brexit is enacted and she is expecting to do this without telling us one fucking detail of what she is negotiating. This is simply not right, I expect my MP to question everything because every decision affects me and my family and I certainly don't want a group of swiveled eyed Tories, in darkened rooms, to do this without any recourse at all. "unelected prime minister" "a group of swiveled eyed Tories, in darkened rooms" What is that you're craving? Balanced debate? No you're not. You're just one of a thankfully small number of Left Leaners who, amazingly still think the referendum and now Brexit was and should be fought on traditional party political terms. You make me laugh. You're a protester not a democrat. Frothing at the keyboard because the Government at the moment is blue so everything is a dirty Tory Brexit fiasco.Very Succinct Owd Roger
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Dec 8, 2016 22:50:01 GMT
I don't give a fuck about sour grapes this bloke helped me and my family. That's the point. That's his job. He's not doing you a favour. That's what cost 'us' about £180,000 for 2015-16. Farrelly expensesYou haven't got a fucking clue what he's done. It's nothing to do with his job.
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Post by 3putts on Dec 9, 2016 9:08:58 GMT
That's his job. He's not doing you a favour. That's what cost 'us' about £180,000 for 2015-16. Farrelly expensesYou haven't got a fucking clue what he's done. It's nothing to do with his job. thats the problem on here wizzard too many people spout off shit without knowing what they are talking about. its only right that are mp's are paid a good salary we want the best people in the job.its not a job i would want you are working 24/7 allways in the public eye and god help you if you ever slip up? my[late] father was helped out by jack ashley mp when ill health meant he couldnt work down the pit anymore. mr ashley came to our house on crackley at 9 pm to chat with my dad. i was just a young kid in those days but some things you never forget
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Post by Skankmonkey on Dec 9, 2016 9:47:21 GMT
I've been through this before - but I'll try and make the point again :-) In OUR system of representative democracy you vote for an MP to represent your interests, NOT to follow your every wish. You give them licence, with your vote, to act and THINK on your behalf for 5 years. If he/she pisses you off FINE vote them out - that's the deal. No problem I believe one of the UKIP leadership candidates (the one with the homosexual donkey issues) was campaigning on a ticket of change towards a "direct" form of democracy where your MP is merely delegated to carry out the wishes of his/her constituents and subject to recall if they disappoint. The problem with such systems is that they lead to a "tyranny of the majority" and not a democracy where everyone's voice gets heard and taken into account. I think you've confused the domestic 5 year political cycle with a once in 40 year referendum that changes the future of the United Kingdom. Even your own post says "to act and THINK on your behalf". Your behalf not theirs. To act on behalf of his constituents wishes regarding Brexit is to trigger Article 50, no? Anna Soubry's another. A prominent Remoaner who had the brass neck to say she was representing the "best interests" of her constituents when interviewed after the voting yesterday. She's the MP for Broxstowe, Nottingham. Broxstowe voted 55% to 45% to Leave with a 78% turnout. The "best interests" she mentions are what she considers to be "best interests", like staying in the EU! Anyway, not really surprising from Mr Farrelly not wanting to leave the EU....... A quick look at his wiki ... grammar school, Oxford reading fucking PPE, corporate finance with Barclays de Zoete Wedd then journalism with Reuters and deputy business editor with the Independent on Sunday, before joining The Observer as the City Editor. Sigh. I'm merely describing the objective reality of "representative democracy" in this country. It is not my OPINION, it is FACT. It is the way this country has been governed since the Civil War. I'm sorry if you don't like that. Here's a learning resource to keep you amused:- REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY FOR BEGINNERS
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Post by Skankmonkey on Dec 9, 2016 9:57:06 GMT
This bit is why referenda are only considered advisory in our system "...However, by handing to their MP’s the right to participate in decision making within the Commons, the electorate is removing itself from the process of decision making. Though MP’s have constituency clinics where the people can voice an opinion on an issue, the electorate play no part in the mechanism of decision making – that process has been handed to MP’s and the government"
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Post by Skankmonkey on Dec 9, 2016 10:07:15 GMT
rogerjonesisgod said "To act on behalf of his constituents wishes regarding Brexit is to trigger Article 50, no?" Yes that would be the case. Unfortunately for you, as I have patiently tried to point out, HE IS UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO ACT ON BEHALF OF HIS CONSTITUENTS WISHES. He has been given licence by democratic mandate to use HIS JUDGEMENT to act in their interest. Those are the objective facts of the matter. If you don't like it vote him out. Simple. :-)
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Post by Skankmonkey on Dec 9, 2016 10:54:05 GMT
It's not about voting out, that's the result and that is what should happen, What worries me is the total shut down of any debate about how we are going to leave. Anybody that dares to raise any concerns is immediately labeled as a remoaner, told they are undemocratic and told that they should put up or shut up (this includes Judges, MP's and 49% of the population) We have got an unelected prime minister who is trying to bypass over 200 yrs of democracy to to ensure that her version of brexit is enacted and she is expecting to do this without telling us one fucking detail of what she is negotiating. This is simply not right, I expect my MP to question everything because every decision affects me and my family and I certainly don't want a group of swiveled eyed Tories to do this, in darkened rooms, without any recourse at all. Yes, some fair points there. It's been horrible and divisive at times, and I hate that. I think the referendum result should be honoured, though, and certain politicians like Nick Clegg are basically trying to overturn it, saying "I know best". That's what I object to. To be honest, though, the whole thing has turned into a farce. What I was trying to say is I respect those who voted in, and the same should hold for Brexiteers. For instance, Skank is a reasonable sort who I believe voted in; I think I am on the same page as him on a lot of things, but I disagreed on this issue. Such is life! I am very reasonable mate thanks. People have to be able to disagree without falling out or else we are all bolloxed. Referenda aren't a good fit with the British system of government. They can be bitterly divisive and they bring out the worst in people - as has been shown. I hope to never see another in my lifetime anyway. We need to get through the Brexit process and out the other side legitimately but as quickly as possible now.
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Post by felonious on Dec 9, 2016 12:55:37 GMT
rogerjonesisgod said "To act on behalf of his constituents wishes regarding Brexit is to trigger Article 50, no?" Yes that would be the case. Unfortunately for you, as I have patiently tried to point out, HE IS UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO ACT ON BEHALF OF HIS CONSTITUENTS WISHES. He has been given licence by democratic mandate to use HIS JUDGEMENT to act in their interest. Those are the objective facts of the matter. If you don't like it vote him out. Simple. :-) Voting a Labour MP out in a Potteries constituency is not simple Skanks, is impossible the word you were looking for?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2016 12:57:01 GMT
In my previous post I commented on the breakdown of the stances of the different newspapers. I get your argument about television being far reaching but I don't think you can be so dismissive of the influence of newspapers when 16 million people read The Sun, that's a pretty large sphere of influence right there not counting the others like the Express and the Daily Mail. The point you make about the bias in television media outlets is very subjective and will differ depending on who you ask, what I would say is that given the overwhelming majority of 'experts' felt that Brexit would be very damaging to Britain it should hardly be a surprise that such stories featured so heavily in the news given that there was a lack of 'experts' coming forward to back remain. Fair enough but I still strongly believe that the BBC is a very left-wing organisation despite the fact it shouldn't be. But I take your point that the reach of the newspapers is more powerful than maybe I give credit for. Have you got an example of an EU policy that had the direct goal of eroding nationalist feelings? Have you got an example of EU brainwashing which has been able to influence youngsters but not the older generation? Well just for starts there's the EU comic strips that were made available for free in UK schools. Google it, you might have to suffer through a Sun or Express article which is obviously going to be massively biased too, but then I'm pretty sure they don't hand out those newspapers for free at our schools. (as much as the owners of those papers would probably like to! ) In terms of EU policy that directly erodes nationalism, well the whole EU project has globalist intentions. A clear example of a negative consequence of globalism is the outsourcing of industry to cheaper foreign markets. We've seen this very trend in our own city. You take away industry and not only does a region suffer economically, but a large part of the identity of a place is lost too. Lose your identity and local pride is diminished as well. For these reasons I believe you can directly attribute the increase in crime and anti-social behaviour in an area like Stoke to the globalist policies that The EU (and our own government) rabidly pursues. I also believe that there might be a strong correlation between the fact that this is the first generation that is "worse off" than their parents generation and the fact that the EU has moved further away from the original goals and more towards political and financial union in the last couple of decades. What do you mean by suffering? What do you mean when you say their areas weren't like this?See my point above. You've said it yourself but that's just pure conjecture, the other side is that a lot older people who voted to leave didn't have a clear idea in their reasoning other than to "keep those bloody foreigners out". I know a lot of people who voted either way who had no clear idea, it's really not fair to single out youngsters like you seem intent on doing.
I take your point. Just one thing worth noting that I will say, not all people are good orators, myself included. I struggle to clearly explain my thoughts in spoken words, partly due to a bunch of other issues that make socialising a difficult skill for me. I think my thoughts become much clearer when I have time to sit down and really think about things whilst writing. So, maybe a lot of people (and I include my aforementioned young people who didn't have clear reasons) do in fact have clear reasoning for their thoughts but will never be able to express them eloquently with speech. Two wrongs don't make a right, there's no justification for the patronisation of either the young or the older generation.Well, two wrongs don't make a right you are correct but if the argument hadn't been put forward that the old had made a selfish decision that won't affect them too much then I wouldn't have felt inclined to put forward my rebuttal that, if we're actually going to go down that road of argument it is my belief that the elderly had access to the greatest amount of knowledge and wisdom when it came to making their decision. So whilst all votes are clearly equal and that is the only system ever worth considering, in a hypothetical world where not all votes are equal it is the elder vote that would be a prime candidate for greater credence IMO, not the youth vote.
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Post by ihaveadream on Dec 9, 2016 14:09:00 GMT
He is meant to represent the people in his constituency, which he obviously isn't, not his own or parties agenda. We were strongly in favour of brexit and he should respect that. By not standing up for what the people within his constituency want is a bit of a Cunts trick. He should step down in my opinion, it comes to something when your own MP isn't fighting your corner. I repeat, he's a cunt. Most people (in my house) wanted to keep a pet giraffe in the back garden (we wanted to call it Trevor), the council wouldn't let us , so I wrote to my MP to complain and he said that he couldn't help. An overwhelming majority of us (in my house) voted for him as well. Why is he not standing up for the people within his constituency? The undemocratic wanker! What a cnut
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Post by starkiller on Dec 9, 2016 14:15:39 GMT
dailym.ai/2hsyYOPDoes not represent my personal opinion but looks like it's been noted by UKIP. Probably not that it'll matter much to him personally. Be interesting to see if there actually is any fluidity in voter intention in this area.
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Post by Biblical on Dec 9, 2016 14:41:19 GMT
You've made some fair points Had to google the EU comic strip and read an Express article on it, I can see why some would label it propaganda but I don't think that a cartoon released only last year is responsible for brainwashing young people into being pro-EU though. I don't really get your point about the loss of industry, the loss of the pottery industry has caused the most damage by moving to Asia which has nothing to do with the EU. I've also had a brief look but it's difficult to locate information on crime statistics for the area to see the changes over the years. Where have you seen that there has been an increase in crime in the area? I'd appreciate it if you could provide a link.
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Post by Skankmonkey on Dec 9, 2016 15:10:52 GMT
rogerjonesisgod said "To act on behalf of his constituents wishes regarding Brexit is to trigger Article 50, no?" Yes that would be the case. Unfortunately for you, as I have patiently tried to point out, HE IS UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO ACT ON BEHALF OF HIS CONSTITUENTS WISHES. He has been given licence by democratic mandate to use HIS JUDGEMENT to act in their interest. Those are the objective facts of the matter. If you don't like it vote him out. Simple. :-) Voting a Labour MP out in a Potteries constituency is not simple Skanks, is impossible the word you were looking for? I conner help that can I mate? My substantive point remains correct. Don't shoot the messenger - campaign for PR or summat! ;-) I just hope rog doesn't start questioning the nature of "democratic checks and balances" otherwise I'll probably suffer a feckin' OCD pedantry overload and miss Christmas. :-)
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Post by Skankmonkey on Dec 9, 2016 15:28:56 GMT
In my previous post I commented on the breakdown of the stances of the different newspapers. I get your argument about television being far reaching but I don't think you can be so dismissive of the influence of newspapers when 16 million people read The Sun, that's a pretty large sphere of influence right there not counting the others like the Express and the Daily Mail. The point you make about the bias in television media outlets is very subjective and will differ depending on who you ask, what I would say is that given the overwhelming majority of 'experts' felt that Brexit would be very damaging to Britain it should hardly be a surprise that such stories featured so heavily in the news given that there was a lack of 'experts' coming forward to back remain. Fair enough but I still strongly believe that the BBC is a very left-wing organisation despite the fact it shouldn't be. But I take your point that the reach of the newspapers is more powerful than maybe I give credit for. Have you got an example of an EU policy that had the direct goal of eroding nationalist feelings? Have you got an example of EU brainwashing which has been able to influence youngsters but not the older generation? Well just for starts there's the EU comic strips that were made available for free in UK schools. Google it, you might have to suffer through a Sun or Express article which is obviously going to be massively biased too, but then I'm pretty sure they don't hand out those newspapers for free at our schools. (as much as the owners of those papers would probably like to! ) In terms of EU policy that directly erodes nationalism, well the whole EU project has globalist intentions. A clear example of a negative consequence of globalism is the outsourcing of industry to cheaper foreign markets. We've seen this very trend in our own city. You take away industry and not only does a region suffer economically, but a large part of the identity of a place is lost too. Lose your identity and local pride is diminished as well. For these reasons I believe you can directly attribute the increase in crime and anti-social behaviour in an area like Stoke to the globalist policies that The EU (and our own government) rabidly pursues. I also believe that there might be a strong correlation between the fact that this is the first generation that is "worse off" than their parents generation and the fact that the EU has moved further away from the original goals and more towards political and financial union in the last couple of decades. What do you mean by suffering? What do you mean when you say their areas weren't like this?See my point above. You've said it yourself but that's just pure conjecture, the other side is that a lot older people who voted to leave didn't have a clear idea in their reasoning other than to "keep those bloody foreigners out". I know a lot of people who voted either way who had no clear idea, it's really not fair to single out youngsters like you seem intent on doing.
I take your point. Just one thing worth noting that I will say, not all people are good orators, myself included. I struggle to clearly explain my thoughts in spoken words, partly due to a bunch of other issues that make socialising a difficult skill for me. I think my thoughts become much clearer when I have time to sit down and really think about things whilst writing. So, maybe a lot of people (and I include my aforementioned young people who didn't have clear reasons) do in fact have clear reasoning for their thoughts but will never be able to express them eloquently with speech. Two wrongs don't make a right, there's no justification for the patronisation of either the young or the older generation.Well, two wrongs don't make a right you are correct but if the argument hadn't been put forward that the old had made a selfish decision that won't affect them too much then I wouldn't have felt inclined to put forward my rebuttal that, if we're actually going to go down that road of argument it is my belief that the elderly had access to the greatest amount of knowledge and wisdom when it came to making their decision. So whilst all votes are clearly equal and that is the only system ever worth considering, in a hypothetical world where not all votes are equal it is the elder vote that would be a prime candidate for greater credence IMO, not the youth vote. I'd say there is possibly a "liberal" bias in the BBC rather than necessarily a left wing one. Lefties moan as much about the Beeb as anyone else. I don't think there is an organised conspiracy as such, it's merely down to the organic fact that the bulk of media professionals and decision makers are probably of a liberal mindset* and they present things as they see them. I can't see many on here supporting an evil quota system to even things up. I could be wrong. ;-) *The rest work for Fox ;-)
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Post by salopstick on Dec 9, 2016 16:17:06 GMT
I do get the argument MPs are elected to think and act upon the general view of their constituents however after a national referendum on any subject they should morally vote in accordance with their constituents.
So in Brexit case regardless of personal or party politics every MP should have voted as their constituents did. Even though the national vote wins or loses the break down by constituents should be published
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Post by Skankmonkey on Dec 9, 2016 16:28:49 GMT
I do get the argument MPs are elected to think and act upon the general view of their constituents however after a national referendum on any subject they should morally vote in accordance with their constituents. So in Brexit case regardless of personal or party politics every MP should have voted as their constituents did. Even though the national vote wins or loses the break down by constituents should be published It's largely academic now anyway. Over 100 Labour M.Ps voted to support Article 50. That makes the Supreme Court judgement a technicality as well. The next hurdle will be getting the "Great Reform Bill" through both houses. Plenty more drama to come. :-) I can live without any more referenda though.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Dec 9, 2016 16:48:56 GMT
This bit is why referenda are only considered advisory in our system "...However, by handing to their MP’s the right to participate in decision making within the Commons, the electorate is removing itself from the process of decision making. Though MP’s have constituency clinics where the people can voice an opinion on an issue, the electorate play no part in the mechanism of decision making – that process has been handed to MP’s and the government"
You're wrong mate. And you can talk about 'wishes' 'democratic mandate' and 'no obligation' all you like your post above describes the NORMAL scenario at a General Election NOT a referendum. Anyone can stand as an MP and can spout their (non-legally binding) manifesto's. We vote, and the one with the most votes becomes the MP. During the next 5 years that MP 'represents' his/her constituency, and by represents it's widely taken to mean follow their own beliefs because it was those beliefs that got them elected in the first place. That is not the case with a referendum. The act of 'following beliefs whilst decision making' was not the right of an MP in this instance. That act was given over to the electorate in the form of the Leave / Remain vote. The result of a referendum is not something an MP then 'takes into consideration'. It is the final decision. Unless you disagree with the outcome of course then you make up any old shit to keep the debate going while desperately trying to jam your foot in the door of the negotiating room.
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Post by Skankmonkey on Dec 9, 2016 17:08:41 GMT
This bit is why referenda are only considered advisory in our system "...However, by handing to their MP’s the right to participate in decision making within the Commons, the electorate is removing itself from the process of decision making. Though MP’s have constituency clinics where the people can voice an opinion on an issue, the electorate play no part in the mechanism of decision making – that process has been handed to MP’s and the government"
You're wrong mate. And you can talk about 'wishes' 'democratic mandate' and 'no obligation' all you like your post above describes the NORMAL scenario at a General Election NOT a referendum. Anyone can stand as an MP and can spout of their (non-legally binding) manifesto's. We vote, and the one with the most votes becomes the MP. During the next 5 years that MP 'represents' his/her constituency, and by represents it's widely taken to mean follow their own beliefs because it was those beliefs that got them elected in the first place. That is not the case with a referendum. The act of 'following beliefs whilst decision making' was not the right of an MP in this instance. That act was given over to the electorate in the form of the Leave / Remain vote. The result of a referendum is not something an MP then 'takes into consideration'. It is the final decision. Unless you disagree with the outcome of course then you make up any old shit to keep the debate going while desperately trying to jam your foot in the door of the negotiating room. It has nowt to do with the referendum. The referendum is merely advisory in our system anyway. The government could legitimately (if not morally) choose to just ignore it. Mr Farage agrees on the Advisory nature of the Referendum There is a sound recording of him saying it here as well if you don't trust the reportage. How an MP votes in the House is down to his conscience pure and simple. He has no other obligation. He could spend 5 years slumped in the Strangers bar if he chose to! Anyway, as I've said above, with over 100 Labour MPs voting to support Article 50 in March it is entirely academic now - like the Supreme Court case. EDIT: Skankmonkey exits Stage Left Right with his new best buddy Nigel.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Dec 10, 2016 9:43:57 GMT
I suppose you could counter your may argument with gordon brown and david milliband signing the lisbon treaty, fully well knowing we would be surrendering laws to the EU political system without a referendum in the 1st place. Parliment will see the plan, so i don't understand why MP'S are still refusing to allow article 50 to be triggered other than trying to block a democratic vote. When you listen to the members of the EU speak you would assume it already has. 18 months left of 2 year exit and 6 months since the referendum. The same Gordon Brown who was also an unelected PM, these so called well educated intellectual remoaners have the memory capacity of the common goldfish, the democratic liberal left I have deposited more intellect down the bog than these fcukers will ever accumulate in their sad PC obsessed existence, you lost girls the people have spoken at last your views are not important or relevant shame and all that "...at last your views are not important.." says our resident champion of democracy. After an election or referendum the losing side doesn't just disappear. If they did the Tories would have been disbanded in 1997, Labour in 2015, and Nigel Farage would've left politics after the first of his many failed attempts to get elected as an MP. Democracy is an endless conversation that goes on and on and on, with the odd vote to decide something every now and again. It's the same reasoning that allows UKIPers to continually piss and whinge about the first past the post system, despite the fact that proportional representation was rejected in a referendum a few years ago.
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Post by scfcrmagic on Dec 12, 2016 2:53:27 GMT
The leave voters won the referendum, the people have spoken .....why the continual messing about sorting it out? The MP's seem to think they "know best" and we're all a bunch of 5yr olds who are either too stupid or don't give a stuff about political matters .....well I think they should stop shoving everything on expenses and get back to doing the job they're "overpaid" for, they all seem so out of touch with the real world , more concerned about image and paying spin doctors to make them look good ... We lost 3-1 to Arsenal on Saturday ....now I'd rather we won ....but the result stands and trying to overturn it by debate or another referendum or doing a "Sturgeon" and chucking all your toys out of the pram frankly means the voice of the people counts for nothing .....we came, we saw, we voted, We won ...so shake the hand of the victor and be gracious in defeat or just learn to deal with it !! Your job now is to action the voice of those who pay your wages and quite frankly if you disagree with doing so you shouldn't be in that sort of job in the first place. In my humble oppion....rant over
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2016 8:07:56 GMT
MP's may eventually see a some sort plan, but will they be able to debate and vote on it without being called enemies of the nation? Yes, only a full divorce from the Eu would do. As explained to us all before we had our opportunity to vote, a vote to leave would be a vote to leave the single market. Giving very little to actually debate other than our new trade deals with other nations and our new trade deal with the Eu. Can't see what's complicated about that As for MP Paul Farrelly, he IS held accountable to the people of his constituency and is the representative voice of the community in the house of Parliament, 42 thousand voted to leave compared to 25 thousand remain votes in Newcastle. Now he has voted against the triggering of article 50 to try and delay the exit against what his constituents voted. This is the biggest political decision in decades, not a small local matter of building a block of flats, planting trees or trying to block the closing of a local hospital. This is the biggest decision in generations and he is not on the same side as the people he speaks for. Simple Sack him at the next election!
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Jan 31, 2017 20:13:51 GMT
Live on the Parliament channel now.
60% - 40% voted to leave in Newcastle and he 'respects' the referendum but "hasn't given up on trying to change 10% of peoples minds" !??
That's not respect Paul.
You had all of the campaign to convince people and you didn't.
FUCK OFF.
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