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Post by FullerMagic on Apr 24, 2013 15:01:43 GMT
I can imagine how you're feeling mate. It would be like us bringing in Martinez or Poyet and then them being a total failure. I'd feel let down and totally gutted. It is certainly time to move on in the summer and it will be interesting to see who we go for. Who would you like to see Doz? . I'm not fudging the issue mate, I really don't know who I think would be best suited. OK, if I was to go for something of a 'safe' option, I'd probably got for someone like McClaren. There you go, now I'm open for all kinds of 'slagging'. F...king Hell Pulis, why couldn't you have just been a little more flexible?  I don't really buy that, Doz. We're going to need complete rebuilding at full-back and out wide, as well as tinkering in central midfield and up front - regardless of who the boss is. This new influx may as well learn a new manager's style as have Pulisball drilled into them from scratch? With the 7-8 contracts shed, as well as the Bego/Sky cash, we would have the means and flexibility to change things around. I think there are only 3-4 members of the squad who are too limited to adapt to another style. Sorensen (2014)
Butland (2017)
Begovic (2016)
Nash
Wilkinson (2014)
Shotton (2015)
Wilson (2016)
Higginbotham
Shawcross (2018)
Huth (2016)
Upson
Cameron (2016)
N'Zonzi (2016)
Whelan (2015)
Cuvelier (2015)
Adam (2016)
Palacios (2015)
Ness (2016)
Edu (2015)
Whitehead
Delap
Kightly
Pennant
Etherington (2014)
Shea (2017)
Crouch (2015)
Jones (2014)
Jerome (2015)
Walters (2015)
Owen
Sidibe
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Post by digger on Apr 24, 2013 15:03:49 GMT
vills spent 40 million in the summer apart from benteke on what
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2013 15:07:59 GMT
Rangers fans were gutted when Ness jumped ship to join us. I remember reading some of the reviews and praise he got too.
What the fudge is he doing these days?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2013 15:08:35 GMT
Is it £35m or £50m?!! Of those players I would say that all the major signings but Palacios have made a contribution. If you disagree with everything I've said, your are entitled to hold that opinion. Presumably, therefore, at the time you thought Palacios was a terrible signing and that Crouch, Adam, Kightly, Jerome, Butland and Shea are also bad signings. You also don't seem to think that the problems with Etherington and Pennant have made any difference to the team. You presumably don't accept that our wage budget is comparable or lower than the clubs I mentioned, and that every signing is a risk, and that it can sometimes go wrong for any club. OK. Looks like that is your position. I still stand by my comments that TP has demonstrated a strong track record over his tenure and is capable of sorting out our problems. After all he's the bloke who has made a 35 year plus career out of professional football as opposed to guys like us who simply watch from the stands but seem to know better than him. I quite accept that the football has been poor and ineffective in terms of goals scored. That's disappointing, but like I said, sometimes getting the balance right is hard. We shouldn't overlook the team's defensive capabilities and competitiveness. Premier League status for a club like Stoke City is by no means a given, and in my opinion it is grossly unfair to say the manager has "got it massively, massively wrong" when it appears that we will be looking forward to our 6th season in this division. Seems like we will have to agree to differ. Edit - so sorry, forgot N'Zonzi in both posts. Presumably another bad signing? He's got it massively massively wrong over the last two seasons Okey and at this stage you're doing little more than making excuses for him. He did brilliantly establishing us here but the evidence suggests he can't push us on - he's dismantled what was by far the most balanced and best team he'd created for seemingly no other reason than to shoehorn some big names in there. The team has always been defensively sound under this manager but he has comprehensively failed to build on that in recent years. If we can accept he's done brilliantly to bring us success we have to accept when he's failed and when it looks like he can't go any further as well. And objectively that's what recent evidence suggests. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2013 15:09:16 GMT
vills spent 40 million in the summer apart from benteke on what You sure about that? |
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Post by dozintheseventees on Apr 24, 2013 15:10:12 GMT
That's my main problem mate because I really don't know. We've got lots of players that need to go but the bulk of our players will still be 'Pulis Type'. Unless we sign an awful lot of players in the window I think evolution will be a slow process. Whoever it is, I think we'll need a fair bit of patience. I'm not fudging the issue mate, I really don't know who I think would be best suited. OK, if I was to go for something of a 'safe' option, I'd probably got for someone like McClaren. There you go, now I'm open for all kinds of 'slagging'. F...king Hell Pulis, why couldn't you have just been a little more flexible? I don't really buy that, Doz. We're going to need complete rebuilding at full-back and out wide, as well as tinkering in central midfield and up front - regardless of who the boss is. This new influx may as well learn a new manager's style as have Pulisball drilled into them from scratch? With the 7-8 contracts shed, as well as the Bego/Sky cash, we would have the means and flexibility to change things around. I think there are only 3-4 members of the squad who are too limited to adapt to another style. Sorensen (2014)
Butland (2017)
Begovic (2016)
Nash
Wilkinson (2014)
Shotton (2015)
Wilson (2016)
Higginbotham
Shawcross (2018)
Huth (2016)
Upson
Cameron (2016)
N'Zonzi (2016)
Whelan (2015)
Cuvelier (2015)
Adam (2016)
Palacios (2015)
Ness (2016)
Edu (2015)
Whitehead
Delap
Kightly
Pennant
Etherington (2014)
Shea (2017)
Crouch (2015)
Jones (2014)
Jerome (2015)
Walters (2015)
Owen
Sidibe
That makes perfect sense FM but you also have to consider how our defence has been organized for several years now and, assuming Huth and Shawcross would still be our CB pairing, they would find things very different under a more 'forward thinking' manager. That's not to say that they wouldn't adapt but it would take time. They are used to having 'cover' all around them from full backs that don't get forward and midfielders that sit deep. They could actually become much better under a new system but it would take time. Whatever happens, I think we will need to be patient. |
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Post by whereami on Apr 24, 2013 15:11:27 GMT
That's my main problem mate because I really don't know. We've got lots of players that need to go but the bulk of our players will still be 'Pulis Type'. Unless we sign an awful lot of players in the window I think evolution will be a slow process. Whoever it is, I think we'll need a fair bit of patience. I'm not fudging the issue mate, I really don't know who I think would be best suited. OK, if I was to go for something of a 'safe' option, I'd probably got for someone like McClaren. There you go, now I'm open for all kinds of 'slagging'. F...king Hell Pulis, why couldn't you have just been a little more flexible? We really are Catch 22 now. The squad we have is really only suited to one manager I can think of. TP. You could say that of most squads created by a manager over a longish period but in Tone's it's more of an acute problem because of his stubborn approach and the fact that he's very old school. I genuinely fear for us if we bring in a Martinez/Di Matteo who will have to work with a squad alien to what they have seen in the past. I dont really agree - Pulis has got the centre backs / keeper situation bang on. A rightback isnt a major concern with Wilko/Shotton, and both of them have shown they can support a winger (preferably *just* support!) when allowed. In the middle we've got plenty of "hidden" options to try in Wilson, Cameron, Cuvelier, Ness, Palacios even (yeah I know), and Whelan can look like more of a footballer when he isnt caged so efficiently - he always seems better for Ireland (from the limited bits I've seen admittedly). Shea is still very much a wildcard, but there must be some kind of footballer in him. Further forward we've still got options between Crouch, Kenneth, Jerome and JOOONNN! Jeromes pace for the goal vs QPR went some way towards showing he can do it as a starter, and even in a support role a pacey forward is an essential food group for any manager. If anything I think Crouch and Kenneth have shown they'd be better with a different manager as both have had their best spells when they've had other players around them to play with, in the few times Pulis has played less typical Pulisball. Obviously some surgery would be required but if a new manager was brought in ASAP and had time to assess the squad for his own style, and had sufficient time to see where/who he'd want reinforcements for, it could go very smoothly. |
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Post by FullerMagic on Apr 24, 2013 15:14:58 GMT
Couldn't agree more, Doz.
There'd be a transition period while we moved away from this blanket defence for the defensive players. Years of Pulis shape drills will have left some kind of mark.
No doubt the centre-halves would feel it most as we reverted to a more 'normal' set-up and a less rigid and regimented 9-man defence trying to suffocate the match
But is there any way around that?
I don't think they are incapable of getting used to another way - Shawcross wouldn't have had caged midfield players in front of him in the Man United age-group teams - and Huth wouldn't have been afforded the cover he is now at Boro, Chelsea or Germany.
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Post by digger on Apr 24, 2013 15:19:02 GMT
vills spent 40 million in the summer apart from benteke on what You sure about that? (thumbsup)its about 28 million plus i added on the think of a number pulis tax |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2013 15:23:51 GMT
They'd adjust pretty quickly in my opinion FM.
The freedom afforded to them, and the fresh approach, would be embraced by most I'd imagine.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2013 15:28:21 GMT
(thumbsup)its about 28 million plus i added on the think of a number pulis tax Pulis has actually spent about £100m though, and Lambert had a fair old rebuilding job after McCleish went. Not saying he's done brilliantly, but given our much-vaunted stability we're the bigger underachievers this season. |
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Post by jimmygscfc1234 on Apr 24, 2013 15:29:43 GMT
The rebuilding is going to be quite substantial because the promised evolution never materialised. It's no good dwelling on the whys and wherefores and attributing blame. Suffice to say, any new manager will inherit a squad where there will be natural wastage due to the ending of contracts and, in Begovic's case, transfer. I can't see any way in which even the most basic tampering won't include a left back, centre back cover, a central midfielder, at least one new winger and a striker....and that's before any other movement such as Palacios leaving and Crouch or Jones going, both of which are likely scenarios either over the Summer of before August 31. Either way it should be perceived by any new custodian as a fantastic opportunity to make his mark by bringing in players who he seeks out to integrate with and improve the existing team/squad.
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Post by dozintheseventees on Apr 24, 2013 15:33:41 GMT
Couldn't agree more, Doz. There'd be a transition period while we moved away from this blanket defence for the defensive players. Years of Pulis shape drills will have left some kind of mark. No doubt the centre-halves would feel it most as we reverted to a more 'normal' set-up and a less rigid and regimented 9-man defence trying to suffocate the match But is there any way around that? I don't think they are incapable of getting used to another way - Shawcross wouldn't have had caged midfield players in front of him in the Man United age-group teams - and Huth wouldn't have been afforded the cover he is now at Boro, Chelsea or Germany. No I quite agree FM but I do think it would take time to get it right and it's likely we'd get it wrong now and again in the process. I do think that both could end up being better players in the long run. |
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Apr 24, 2013 15:49:00 GMT
Rob, I'm not making excuses for him, I've said that the football has been generally poor, especially since Christmas.
I've also said that top management in elite professional sport is a complex business, and that in my opinion there have been one or two mitigating factors that haven't helped the manager's cause.
I'm not sure about the "18 month" period. We had a really tough start to the season but did pretty well up to Christmas. I think the tide has really turned against TP when results have suffered since then.
I think we generally have a strong squad and that this summer is an opportunity to "re-balance" things.
What I don't accept is that somebody else, particularly when we look at the realistic options, will do a better job. The risk of change is not worth the potential benefit for me.
I think TP deserves some respect and loyalty from us as supporters.
If you accept the logic that it's a gamble to change manager and a gamble to stick with Tone, then I think out of loyalty and based on his achievements at this club he deserves another chance.
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Post by geoff321 on Apr 24, 2013 15:52:01 GMT
The names I've seen suggested as a replacement for Pulis:
Bruce, Neville, Di Matteo, Benitez, Martinez, McClaren, Coyle, Davis, Bould, O'Neill, Hughes, Poyet, Curbishley, Allardyce.
Currently out of work, 5
Currently managing 7
No experience 2
Previously sacked by another Premier League Club 9
Never managed in the Premier League 4
On the basis Benitez would not be interested, who is the guy to take Stoke forward to a new era?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2013 15:53:18 GMT
The names I've seen suggested as a replacement for Pulis: Bruce, Neville, Di Matteo, Benitez, Martinez, McClaren, Coyle, Davis, Bould, O'Neill, Hughes, Poyet, Curbishley, Allardyce. Currently out of work, 5 Currently managing 7 No experience 2 Previously sacked by another Premier League Club 9 Never managed in the Premier League 4 On the basis Benitez would not be interested, who is the guy to take Stoke forward to a new era? Not Tony Pulis. |
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Apr 24, 2013 15:55:16 GMT
(thumbsup)its about 28 million plus i added on the think of a number pulis tax Pulis has actually spent about £100m though, and Lambert had a fair old rebuilding job after McCleish went. Not saying he's done brilliantly, but given our much-vaunted stability we're the bigger underachievers this season. Digger would you care to break down the "£28 million" that Lambert has spent? |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Apr 24, 2013 15:56:47 GMT
Rob, I'm not making excuses for him, I've said that the football has been generally poor, especially since Christmas. I've also said that top management in elite professional sport is a complex business, and that in my opinion there have been one or two mitigating factors that haven't helped the manager's cause. I'm not sure about the "18 month" period. We had a really tough start to the season but did pretty well up to Christmas. I think the tide has really turned against TP when results have suffered since then. I think we generally have a strong squad and that this summer is an opportunity to "re-balance" things. What I don't accept is that somebody else, particularly when we look at the realistic options, will do a better job. The risk of change is not worth the potential benefit for me. I think TP deserves some respect and loyalty from us as supporters. If you accept the logic that it's a gamble to change manager and a gamble to stick with Tone, then I think out of loyalty and based on his achievements at this club he deserves another chance. You were saying give him loyalty and time to turn it round a year ago though okey and we've ended up getting even worse. You really think after the season we've had, it's okay for you to go with exactly the same argument again? If we give him another bundle of cash to spend this summer and we have another season like this one next term, are you genuinely going to be here in a year's time asking for TP to be given more money and more time? |
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Post by thesandbankskid on Apr 24, 2013 16:07:49 GMT
The names I've seen suggested as a replacement for Pulis: Bruce, Neville, Di Matteo, Benitez, Martinez, McClaren, Coyle, Davis, Bould, O'Neill, Hughes, Poyet, Curbishley, Allardyce. Currently out of work, 5 Currently managing 7 No experience 2 Previously sacked by another Premier League Club 9 Never managed in the Premier League 4 On the basis Benitez would not be interested, who is the guy to take Stoke forward to a new era? Your stats don't mean anything, Pulis would of been sacked by all of them by now so what is your point? Your post holds even less credibility because managers get the sack these days quicker than a carton of milk can turn and for very little, Mourhino was sacked by Chelsea. However what it does highlight is what an attractive proposistion SCFC is because we give our managers time to build without asking them to sell their best players. |
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Apr 24, 2013 16:15:45 GMT
Paul, I was expecting more of a backlash! Thanks for going easy on a sentimental fool!
What did he spend last summer? Around £9m on Adam/N'Zonzi/Kightly (£4m + £3m + £2m?) + bits and pieces on Ness and Edu?
He must have thought he could do something with Adam and that hasn't worked out. I would have thought that even if he sold him 1 year older, he would at least get his money back. I still hold out hope for Michael Kightly, even if it is as cover/sub. N'Zonzi is a win/win: decent player or decent fee.
I think that the downward spiral in form and confidence since the New Year has been dreadful, but up until then we did OK.
Premier League survival is key to SCFC, and I have said before that the prospect of relegation is the only reason managers get sacked below the top 7.
In answer to your question though, no, I wouldn't keep on defending him if he can't turn it around. I've said earlier on this thread that I personally would give him next season, but I would accept that if we were still not creating and scoring goals resulting in us looking like relegation candidates then Christmas would be the natural time for change.
My decision to stick is based partly on loyalty, partly on a genuine belief that he can turn it around(based on the facts that he's delivered before) partly on his great relationship with PC and partly because there is no guaranteed better realistic option. For me, the potential benefits of change are just not worth ditching a bloke who has done so much for this football club.
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Post by digger on Apr 24, 2013 16:29:54 GMT
digger not to be held responsible if the prices on web site are not correct.ahmadi 3m lowton 3m vlar 3.5m bennett2.5m bowery 1m westwood2,5m benteke 10m plus a few other players 1m. total 26.5m total
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Post by Gods on Apr 24, 2013 16:34:45 GMT
The names I've seen suggested as a replacement for Pulis: Bruce, Neville, Di Matteo, Benitez, Martinez, McClaren, Coyle, Davis, Bould, O'Neill, Hughes, Poyet, Curbishley, Allardyce. Currently out of work, 5 Currently managing 7 No experience 2 Previously sacked by another Premier League Club 9 Never managed in the Premier League 4 On the basis Benitez would not be interested, who is the guy to take Stoke forward to a new era? Not Tony Pulis. With respect mate that's not good enough and that applies to anyone who wants Tone out without saying who they want in, one name and realistic. Otherwise it's like the opposition of the day saying the Governments Economic policy is a crock of shit without saying what they would do instead. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2013 17:03:40 GMT
With respect mate that's not good enough and that applies to anyone who wants Tone out without saying who they want in, one name and realistic. Otherwise it's like the opposition of the day saying the Governments Economic policy is a crock of shit without saying what they would do instead. So are you saying none of the names given on this thread are in any way viable? |
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Post by Gods on Apr 24, 2013 17:36:18 GMT
With respect mate that's not good enough and that applies to anyone who wants Tone out without saying who they want in, one name and realistic. Otherwise it's like the opposition of the day saying the Governments Economic policy is a crock of shit without saying what they would do instead. So are you saying none of the names given on this thread are in any way viable? No I'm not. Someone asked whydelilah who his choice for manager would be and he replied "Not Tony Pulis". Who is your man RVD? Apologies if you have already told us somewhere else in this thread I haven't read it all. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2013 17:39:09 GMT
So are you saying none of the names given on this thread are in any way viable? No I'm not. Someone asked whydelilah who his choice for manager would be and he replied "Not Tony Pulis". Who is your man RVD? Apologies if you have already told us somewhere else in this thread I haven't read it all. If we're going 'progressive' I'd go for Bould, if we were going 'established' I'd go for MON, assuming Sam isn't available. Big question marks over both in different ways but I don't see how the current malaise is going to lift under the present management team. |
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Post by Gods on Apr 24, 2013 17:49:56 GMT
No I'm not. Someone asked whydelilah who his choice for manager would be and he replied "Not Tony Pulis". Who is your man RVD? Apologies if you have already told us somewhere else in this thread I haven't read it all. If we're going 'progressive' I'd go for Bould, if we were going 'established' I'd go for MON, assuming Sam isn't available. Big question marks over both in different ways but I don't see how the current malaise is going to lift under the present management team. Fair enough. For me Sam would be just perfect, but he has a job, and my impression is that he loves it to bits and I can't think of any single good reason why West Ham might sack him. I like MON, he seems bright as a button, and provided he is not mentally scarred by the Sunderland experience he would hit the ground running. As for Steve (streets of Blurton) Bould, I just don't see PC betting the family silver on someone who has never managed a football club at this point. mmm...we'll see what happens. |
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Apr 24, 2013 17:52:24 GMT
See Rob I don't get that.
You must be more sentimental than me! Steve Bould has had one season as a number 2, and before that he was a Youth Team coach. We know absolutely nothing of his man management skills or footballing style. For all we know he could be more George Graham than Arsene Wenger. Would you seriously consider a candidate with that amount of managerial experience if it wasn't for the Stoke City connection?
As for MoN, he looks like a spent force. Tone has looked positively upbeat compared to MoN in his last days at Sunderland. TP also got a win out of that massive game at QPR, just when we needed a result. MoN just looked like he'd gone.
I would stick with TP before either of those two, and big Sam looks like a like for like swap. All risk and no benefit for me.
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Post by geoff321 on Apr 24, 2013 17:55:34 GMT
Gods,
Although I,m 100% for Tony Pulis, if he did go I would be with either one of your two choices. The rest don't tick all the right boxes.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2013 18:04:14 GMT
See Rob I don't get that. You must be more sentimental than me! Steve Bould has had one season as a number 2, and before that he was a Youth Team coach. We know absolutely nothing of his man management skills or footballing style. For all we know he could be more George Graham than Arsene Wenger. Would you seriously consider a candidate with that amount of managerial experience if it wasn't for the Stoke City connection? As for MoN, he looks like a spent force. Tone has looked positively upbeat compared to MoN in his last days at Sunderland. TP also got a win out of that massive game at QPR, just when we needed a result. MoN just looked like he'd gone. I would stick with TP before either of those two, and big Sam looks like a like for like swap. All risk and no benefit for me. Okey, Maybe Steve Clarke's success has influenced me but Bould has been involved in coaching for years, would largely unite the fans and would bring the ability to sort out a defence along with whatever he's picked up from Wenger. No guarantees and would be a huge gamble but would rather that over Gary Neville or someone like that. MON may well have lost his fight and have become a dinosaur. However, you could also argue that he has many of the same values as TP but believes in pace, which TP doesn't, and would be a step up in that case. He didn't have his midlands-based right hand man at Sunderland. Maybe we could reunite them and he'd come back swinging with a point to prove. Allardyce plays the game similarly to TP but at least can find some room for flair in his sides. I don't see an Okocha or Djorkaeff getting into a TP side and not even sure I see a Diame getting in. Uses full backs as well. |
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Post by Gods on Apr 24, 2013 18:12:56 GMT
Gods, Although I,m 100% for Tony Pulis, if he did go I would be with either one of your two choices. The rest don't tick all the right boxes. I'm 100% for Tony Pulis too. They weren't my choices, I was commenting on RVD's choises, although as it happens they would also be my choices were TP to leave. |
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