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Post by werrington on Nov 21, 2012 19:54:27 GMT
Wigan was woeful until 30 mins in lads
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Post by roylandstoke on Nov 21, 2012 22:15:32 GMT
Wigan was woeful until 30 mins in lads Sorry mate but it wasn't woeful. It would have had to have been a hell of a lot better to have been woeful.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Nov 21, 2012 22:19:57 GMT
Wigan was woeful until 30 mins in lads Sorry mate but it wasn't woeful. It would have had to have been a hell of a lot better to have been woeful. It was you daft fuckers booing, anti Pulis chanting and fighting that turned it around. Maybe you should be the next managers
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Post by bobbystokie on Nov 21, 2012 23:41:04 GMT
Jones was playing well, but he still got stick even then. If u think about it Walters was playing well 2, but the key men were Matty & Pennant. If we had players on form like that now, Crouch would look a lot better, would have more service and score more goals. I'm amazed how people can't see that. Saying that it's a game of opinions. I'm amazed that people think it's a blind coincidence that the rest of our front four's form went to shit virtually as soon as he arrived, but there you go. Im amazed that people blame our leading scorer and best technical player for the managers tactics and the lack of ability and pace around him -but there you go.
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Post by bobbystokie on Nov 21, 2012 23:43:02 GMT
I think it goes something like; everyone in the team is unable to put the ball on Crouch's head on all of the occasions he is unmarked and standing within six yards of the centre of the opposition goal. With the right service Peter Crouch ( like any striker ) would score dozens of goals. Sadly at Stoke all our other attacking players just aren't good enough. Yeah, 'with the right service', 'with more support', 'with other players near him'. None of which we set up to play or have ever been set up to play under this manager. So we need a shit striker to lead a shit system?Now theres aspiration.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2012 8:47:22 GMT
I'm amazed that people think it's a blind coincidence that the rest of our front four's form went to shit virtually as soon as he arrived, but there you go. Im amazed that people blame our leading scorer and best technical player for the managers tactics and the lack of ability and pace around him -but there you go. They don't blame him, Christ. They blame the tactics, but they're not going to change anytime soon are they? So that being the case we're going to keep struggling for goals if the personnel doesn't suit the tactics. It's like talking to a fucking brick wall. People just ignore what's actually been written and argue against the point they want to argue against regardless of what's actually been said. We need a striker who is quick and can get in behind defenders and help create more space in the final third. Whether he himself is prolific or not is less important than allowing the team to be more prolific.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 22, 2012 9:10:58 GMT
I was trying to avoid this thread like the plague given the way the thread has gone but I just can't resist pointing out one incident from the West Ham game.
Second half, maybe after 75 minutes or so, we broke away and Adam had gone past his man to attack the box.
He had Crouch slightly ahead of him and he waited and waited, then waited and waited some more for Crouch to make a run but the run never materialised. Had it done, he could have tried to slip Crouch through for a one on one with the keeper.
Immediately my mind drifted to the chance KJ missed in Valencia and that was the run that Crouch needed to make but simply couldn't.
Adam played the ball wide to Etherington and Ethers did well to put in a very decent cross into the middle of the area about 8 yards out.
Crouch was on the edge of the box, beyond the back post and he had ultimately cost us a chance on goal TWICE in the same move.
There, in that one incident, was evidence of the problems that we have as a team right now.
The way we are set up, we need some pace and movement from the lone front man so as to give Adam the targets and areas for him to hit his passes. At the moment, he has no target and really can't even put the ball into decent areas because Crouch won't run onto it.
The answer? Drop Crouch and pick someone who can offer the rest of the team what they need or drop Adam and get Crouch a partner that will bring the best out of him.
It really is that simple. Given the players that we have at our disposal right now, the team needs to be changed so as to bring KJ into our current favoured set up or Owen brought in to play right alongside Crouch at the expense of Adam.
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Post by Championship Potter on Nov 22, 2012 9:37:24 GMT
The way we are set up, we need some pace and movement from the lone front man so as to give Adam the targets and areas for him to hit his passes. At the moment, he has no target and really can't even put the ball into decent areas because Crouch won't run onto it. . Completely agree with that. Adam was effective at Blackpool because he had players like Puncheon, Taylor-Fletcher, DJ Campbell and Phillips all making runs behind him. Whereas with us he has the static Crouch ahead of him and one-paced wingers either side. I don't think I've ever seen a football team that is as slow and one dimensional as ours at present. It's clear that we need a way to get more pace in the side and swapping Jones for Crouch is the most obvious change. Longer term we also need to invest in some wingers with pace.
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Post by superjonnywalters on Nov 22, 2012 10:07:49 GMT
I was trying to avoid this thread like the plague given the way the thread has gone but I just can't resist pointing out one incident from the West Ham game. Second half, maybe after 75 minutes or so, we broke away and Adam had gone past his man to attack the box. He had Crouch slightly ahead of him and he waited and waited, then waited and waited some more for Crouch to make a run but the run never materialised. Had it done, he could have tried to slip Crouch through for a one on one with the keeper. Immediately my mind drifted to the chance KJ missed in Valencia and that was the run that Crouch needed to make but simply couldn't. Adam played the ball wide to Etherington and Ethers did well to put in a very decent cross into the middle of the area about 8 yards out. Crouch was on the edge of the box, beyond the back post and he had ultimately cost us a chance on goal TWICE in the same move. There, in that one incident, was evidence of the problems that we have as a team right now. The way we are set up, we need some pace and movement from the lone front man so as to give Adam the targets and areas for him to hit his passes. At the moment, he has no target and really can't even put the ball into decent areas because Crouch won't run onto it. The answer? Drop Crouch and pick someone who can offer the rest of the team what they need or drop Adam and get Crouch a partner that will bring the best out of him. It really is that simple. Given the players that we have at our disposal right now, the team needs to be changed so as to bring KJ into our current favoured set up or Owen brought in to play right alongside Crouch at the expense of Adam. Bullshit.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 22, 2012 10:16:08 GMT
Why's that exactly?
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Post by chr15 on Nov 22, 2012 10:17:16 GMT
Jones has been called up by Trinidad & Tobago to play in the Digicel Caribbean Football Union Cup finals which takes place from 7-16 December in Antigua. He could therefore be absent for Villa (away) and Everton (home). He's not getting a sniff here so I hope he goes and has a good tournament.
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Post by superjonnywalters on Nov 22, 2012 10:22:55 GMT
Are we playing the “use one incident to prove a whole point” game? Ok, give me a moment whilst I compile a whole list of KJ “incidents” to prove why he isn’t the answer……. This debate is the most annoying thing about the Oatie at the moment. A new thread appears every single week and a few pages down the line it ends up the same bloody way (Bloody Nazi’s the lot of ya…. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law). People continually debating Crouch and KJ and which of the 2 is the miraculous answer to our prayers. The reality is, it’s the tactics that are killing us as an attacking force.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 22, 2012 10:29:00 GMT
WD - I am not using one incident to prove anything. I am merely highlighting one incident which encapsulates the problems we have.
I agree that the tactics are strangling the life out of our team but for the most part that is because the tactics being used don't best suit the personnel being deployed to implement them.
Hence I conclude that we either need to introduce some pace to our existing set up (only KJ or Jerome offer us that option) or give Crouch the partner and system he needs to bring the best out of him.
It seems ridiculous that we currently have 2 strikers for whom we have paid a combined sum of 18m for, yet don't use a system that suits the strengths of either one of them.
It is quite ridiculous in all honesty.
Given the lack of pace and movement throughout our team, we are easy to put under pressure because we can't hit the channels and win free-kicks and throw ins from nothing so as to take some of the sting out of the game. This approach has served us well for 3 out of 4 years in the Premier League and has given us countless goals from absolutely nothing. It is a trait of our game which now seems long gone and our goals tally seems to fall annually as a result.
I also agree that this particular issue is done to death on a weekly basis, hence why I tried my very best to avoid contributing!
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Post by superjonnywalters on Nov 22, 2012 10:32:30 GMT
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Post by werrington on Nov 22, 2012 10:32:58 GMT
Are we playing the “use one incident to prove a whole point” game? Ok, give me a moment whilst I compile a whole list of KJ “incidents” to prove why he isn’t the answer……. This debate is the most annoying thing about the Oatie at the moment. A new thread appears every single week and a few pages down the line it ends up the same bloody way (Bloody Nazi’s the lot of ya…. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law). People continually debating Crouch and KJ and which of the 2 is the miraculous answer to our prayers. The reality is, it’s the tactics that are killing us as an attacking force. You have hit the nail on the head WD....it is the tactics which are creating our attacking problems. The question is though is that if you have somebody who its those tactics better than what we have then why not use him? I dont think anybody is knocking Crouch to a certain degree it is as you say the tactics but they suit Jones better? Opinions eh
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Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 22, 2012 10:41:25 GMT
Great thread that WD. Loving Jokelads comments about KJ being built for short bursts yet today, seeing as he is out of favour, he is a lazy bastard who shouldn't be anywhere near our starting 11. That link has made me smile!
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Post by RAF on Nov 22, 2012 10:43:20 GMT
It is about the tactics as much as it is about through balls. Unfortunately WD knows as much about the former as the latter which equates to the square root of fuck all the daft twat! H
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Post by superjonnywalters on Nov 22, 2012 10:45:53 GMT
It is about the tactics as much as it is about through balls. Unfortunately WD knows as much about the former as the latter which equates to the square root of fuck all the daft twat! H I prefer the word "cunt", but I'll go with it.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Nov 22, 2012 10:51:40 GMT
The telling phrase in johnno's essay, is the phrase, 'Immediately my mind drifted to the chance KJ MISSED in Valencia'
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2012 10:51:52 GMT
Are we playing the “use one incident to prove a whole point” game? Ok, give me a moment whilst I compile a whole list of KJ “incidents” to prove why he isn’t the answer……. This debate is the most annoying thing about the Oatie at the moment. A new thread appears every single week and a few pages down the line it ends up the same bloody way (Bloody Nazi’s the lot of ya…. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law). People continually debating Crouch and KJ and which of the 2 is the miraculous answer to our prayers. The reality is, it’s the tactics that are killing us as an attacking force. Nobody is disputing it's the tactics and I'm certainly not arguing that Jones is definitely the saviour. The point is that the tactics aren't going to change and therefore personnel that suits those tactics better is required. That's been the argument all along!
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Post by chr15 on Nov 22, 2012 11:14:35 GMT
The telling phrase in johnno's essay, is the phrase, 'Immediately my mind drifted to the chance KJ MISSED in Valencia' I remember that Valencia game well. Our so called "second" team gave Valencia more of a game at the Mestalla than our first team were able to do at the Britannia. It's a pity the "second" team didn't play in the home leg. If I remember correctly, save for one attempt at goal Crouch was useless at the home game and was replaced by Jerome in the 70th minute.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Nov 22, 2012 11:26:33 GMT
If we're in the business of picking out moments in games what about the first half Monday, or when we scythed through Man Utd and went blow for blow with Chelsea? Away from home the system with Crouch is working as well as it ever did with Jones.
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Post by cheadlestokie on Nov 22, 2012 11:28:56 GMT
davejohnno you are exactly correct.We either need some pace around Crouch or pace in the place of Crouch. As it is goalscoring from open play seems almost impossible.
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Post by nantwichstokie on Nov 22, 2012 11:29:29 GMT
I was trying to avoid this thread like the plague given the way the thread has gone but I just can't resist pointing out one incident from the West Ham game. Second half, maybe after 75 minutes or so, we broke away and Adam had gone past his man to attack the box. He had Crouch slightly ahead of him and he waited and waited, then waited and waited some more for Crouch to make a run but the run never materialised. Had it done, he could have tried to slip Crouch through for a one on one with the keeper. Immediately my mind drifted to the chance KJ missed in Valencia and that was the run that Crouch needed to make but simply couldn't. Adam played the ball wide to Etherington and Ethers did well to put in a very decent cross into the middle of the area about 8 yards out. Crouch was on the edge of the box, beyond the back post and he had ultimately cost us a chance on goal TWICE in the same move. There, in that one incident, was evidence of the problems that we have as a team right now. The way we are set up, we need some pace and movement from the lone front man so as to give Adam the targets and areas for him to hit his passes. At the moment, he has no target and really can't even put the ball into decent areas because Crouch won't run onto it. The answer? Drop Crouch and pick someone who can offer the rest of the team what they need or drop Adam and get Crouch a partner that will bring the best out of him. It really is that simple. Given the players that we have at our disposal right now, the team needs to be changed so as to bring KJ into our current favoured set up or Owen brought in to play right alongside Crouch at the expense of Adam. Shock horror. Somebody talks sense on the Oatcake! I remember this moment. I was stood there willing the through ball on but Crouch was NEVER going to look to run in behind. I actually thought Charlie should of just took it on himself in the end. But your main points are spot on. Crouch can never be that sort of player. Its not his fault. But we were crying out for a bit of pace on the last line for the final 30 minutes on Monday. It seemed obvious to me and everybody stood around us. West Ham had done well 2nd half and as a team we weren't as close to Crouch as we needed to be to make the system work.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Nov 22, 2012 11:41:51 GMT
WD - I am not using one incident to prove anything. I am merely highlighting one incident which encapsulates the problems we have. I agree that the tactics are strangling the life out of our team but for the most part that is because the tactics being used don't best suit the personnel being deployed to implement them. Hence I conclude that we either need to introduce some pace to our existing set up (only KJ or Jerome offer us that option) or give Crouch the partner and system he needs to bring the best out of him. It seems ridiculous that we currently have 2 strikers for whom we have paid a combined sum of 18m for, yet don't use a system that suits the strengths of either one of them. It is quite ridiculous in all honesty. Given the lack of pace and movement throughout our team, we are easy to put under pressure because we can't hit the channels and win free-kicks and throw ins from nothing so as to take some of the sting out of the game. This approach has served us well for 3 out of 4 years in the Premier League and has given us countless goals from absolutely nothing. It is a trait of our game which now seems long gone and our goals tally seems to fall annually as a result. I also agree that this particular issue is done to death on a weekly basis, hence why I tried my very best to avoid contributing! Spot on its not personal against Crouch who's a great player. He's just not suited to the system. Of the 2 options I'd go with KJ rather than drop Adam
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Post by sheikhmomo on Nov 22, 2012 11:48:40 GMT
WD - I am not using one incident to prove anything. I am merely highlighting one incident which encapsulates the problems we have. I agree that the tactics are strangling the life out of our team but for the most part that is because the tactics being used don't best suit the personnel being deployed to implement them. Hence I conclude that we either need to introduce some pace to our existing set up (only KJ or Jerome offer us that option) or give Crouch the partner and system he needs to bring the best out of him. It seems ridiculous that we currently have 2 strikers for whom we have paid a combined sum of 18m for, yet don't use a system that suits the strengths of either one of them. It is quite ridiculous in all honesty. Given the lack of pace and movement throughout our team, we are easy to put under pressure because we can't hit the channels and win free-kicks and throw ins from nothing so as to take some of the sting out of the game. This approach has served us well for 3 out of 4 years in the Premier League and has given us countless goals from absolutely nothing. It is a trait of our game which now seems long gone and our goals tally seems to fall annually as a result. I also agree that this particular issue is done to death on a weekly basis, hence why I tried my very best to avoid contributing! Spot on its not personal against Crouch who's a great player. He's just not suited to the system. Of the 2 options I'd go with KJ rather than drop Adam Or play Adam in his proper position.
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Post by superjonnywalters on Nov 22, 2012 11:50:06 GMT
My opinion is that Crouch, or KJ, are not the answer to our goalscoring problems. Tone has brough Adam in and not really considered where he would fit in (not the first time he's done this). With the current personnel I'd be tempted to drop Adam and revert back to 2 proper wingers, and Walters behind Crouch for our next 2 home games: - Kightly N'Zonzi Whelan Ethers
Walters
Crouch At the moment we've got Adam not looking exactly comfortable, or knowing exactly what is expected of him, in the role behind Crouch and you've got Walters doing his best to be a winger. If you address those 2 issues we'd be making a good start to fixing the problems. Long term, I think it could be worth trying Kightly in the role behind the front man, with a proper right winger brought in, in January.
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Post by chr15 on Nov 22, 2012 12:08:15 GMT
If we're in the business of picking out moments in games what about the first half Monday, or when we scythed through Man Utd and went blow for blow with Chelsea? Away from home the system with Crouch is working as well as it ever did with Jones. When, pray, did we ever "scythe through" Man United? Are you referring to the 1:1 draw in September 2011? Or maybe you're thinking of the FA Cup quarter finals in 1971/72? I can't remember us doing anything significant against Chelsea recently either (I'm not particularly excited by two draws during 2011). If you're going to pick recent moments to be proud of, you can't do much better than our 5 - 0 victory over Bolton in the FA Cup Semi, or the 3 -1 defeat of Arsenal during May 2011. If you're going to "pick out moments in games", you could at least do it properly.
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Post by superjonnywalters on Nov 22, 2012 12:09:50 GMT
He's on about our last game against Man Utd.
Daft cu.......
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Post by sheikhmomo on Nov 22, 2012 12:13:01 GMT
If we're in the business of picking out moments in games what about the first half Monday, or when we scythed through Man Utd and went blow for blow with Chelsea? Away from home the system with Crouch is working as well as it ever did with Jones. If you're going to "pick out moments in games", you could at least do it properly. If you're going to pick me up on something you could at least have a vague working knowledge of our season so far.
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