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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 21, 2012 14:51:28 GMT
How anyone can say crouch played well on Monday is beyond me. He lost numerous headers in the west ham half to tomkins and Reid who are small centre halves. He didn't have a worthwhile shot on goal and didn't stretch there backline at all. Those who say he played well really are just looking at his name and England caps like pulis did when he signed him without thinking where he will fit in. Our attacking play won't improve until we get pace and strength in the final 3rd. Even if he does win headers, there's usually no one within 20 foot of him. On Monday we actually had the sight of Adam being close enough to him to be there for a drop down. I don't think Crouch played well at all but the problem is bigger and more complex than Peter Crouch.
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Post by thestatusquo on Nov 21, 2012 14:56:31 GMT
Crouch is a symptom but not the cause. The system is.
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Post by Mint Berry Barks on Nov 21, 2012 15:00:35 GMT
why do you think we brought crouch in the first place?kj just wasnt doing it for us. having said that i would like to see him coming on in the last 30 mins to have a run at tired legs? I.. WHAT?! I'm sorry, but that is one of the shittest post I've seen on this board. KJ wasn't doing it for us? It's not like he started up front for us when we got to the FA Cup final and played some of the best football we've played in years. Jesus Christ mate..
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Post by timbo1988 on Nov 21, 2012 15:04:38 GMT
How anyone can say crouch played well on Monday is beyond me. He lost numerous headers in the west ham half to tomkins and Reid who are small centre halves. He didn't have a worthwhile shot on goal and didn't stretch there backline at all. Those who say he played well really are just looking at his name and England caps like pulis did when he signed him without thinking where he will fit in. Our attacking play won't improve until we get pace and strength in the final 3rd. Even if he does win headers, there's usually no one within 20 foot of him. On Monday we actually had the sight of Adam being close enough to him to be there for a drop down. I don't think Crouch played well at all but the problem is bigger and more complex than Peter Crouch. The problem is certainly bigger than just crouch. In my opinion the two wingers plus Adam and plus crouch are all wrong. We need pacey wide players who can beat a man. Hoilet would have been ideal. We currently have non of these as etherington seems past it now. Adam looks totally out of position, we need a creative player who can get close to the target man, nobody immediately springs to mind but someone like van der vaart to get 10 goals and create things. Then the main striker needs to be mobile, good in the air and can hold the ball up but also run in behind to stretch the defence. Jones is the closest we have to these even though he has his faults. Demba BA would have suited it perfectly.
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Post by y2j on Nov 21, 2012 16:52:17 GMT
Jones was playing well, but he still got stick even then. If u think about it Walters was playing well 2, but the key men were Matty & Pennant. If we had players on form like that now, Crouch would look a lot better, would have more service and score more goals. I'm amazed how people can't see that. Saying that it's a game of opinions. why do you think we brought crouch in the first place?kj just wasnt doing it for us. having said that i would like to see him coming on in the last 30 mins to have a run at tired legs? I.. WHAT?! I'm sorry, but that is one of the shittest post I've seen on this board. KJ wasn't doing it for us? It's not like he started up front for us when we got to the FA Cup final and played some of the best football we've played in years. Jesus Christ mate..
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Post by timbo1988 on Nov 21, 2012 17:42:29 GMT
Jones was playing well, but he still got stick even then. If u think about it Walters was playing well 2, but the key men were Matty & Pennant. If we had players on form like that now, Crouch would look a lot better, would have more service and score more goals. I'm amazed how people can't see that. Saying that it's a game of opinions. I.. WHAT?! I'm sorry, but that is one of the shittest post I've seen on this board. KJ wasn't doing it for us? It's not like he started up front for us when we got to the FA Cup final and played some of the best football we've played in years. Jesus Christ mate.. My view is that pennant walters and etherington both lost form because of crouch not just by coincidence. Crouch has no pace allowing the opposition centre backs to push up without the worry of someone running in behind as crouch has no pace. This means all the full backs can push up tight on the wingers which marks them out the game plus their defence and midfield are a lot closer together meaning less space for the wingers and Walters to operate in. I think tp realised this but he feels crouch has to play due to the transfer fee meaning he has changed the system to put Adam in behind crouch.
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Post by ukcstokie on Nov 21, 2012 17:43:45 GMT
Jones was playing well, but he still got stick even then. If u think about it Walters was playing well 2, but the key men were Matty & Pennant. If we had players on form like that now, Crouch would look a lot better, would have more service and score more goals. I'm amazed how people can't see that. But part of the problem is that with Crouch defenses can push up - they're not scared that Crouch has got the pace to get behind them. This means that our wingers have less space and subsequently their form has suffered. Is it just coincidence that our wingers form has been poor since Crouch joined or are the two things linked?
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Post by ukcstokie on Nov 21, 2012 17:46:45 GMT
Jones was playing well, but he still got stick even then. If u think about it Walters was playing well 2, but the key men were Matty & Pennant. If we had players on form like that now, Crouch would look a lot better, would have more service and score more goals. I'm amazed how people can't see that. Saying that it's a game of opinions. My view is that pennant walters and etherington both lost form because of crouch not just by coincidence. Crouch has no pace allowing the opposition centre backs to push up without the worry of someone running in behind as crouch has no pace. This means all the full backs can push up tight on the wingers which marks them out the game plus their defence and midfield are a lot closer together meaning less space for the wingers and Walters to operate in. I think tp realised this but he feels crouch has to play due to the transfer fee meaning he has changed the system to put Adam in behind crouch. Great minds...eh?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2012 17:47:20 GMT
Jones was playing well, but he still got stick even then. If u think about it Walters was playing well 2, but the key men were Matty & Pennant. If we had players on form like that now, Crouch would look a lot better, would have more service and score more goals. I'm amazed how people can't see that. Saying that it's a game of opinions. I.. WHAT?! I'm sorry, but that is one of the shittest post I've seen on this board. KJ wasn't doing it for us? It's not like he started up front for us when we got to the FA Cup final and played some of the best football we've played in years. Jesus Christ mate.. I'm amazed that people think it's a blind coincidence that the rest of our front four's form went to shit virtually as soon as he arrived, but there you go.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Nov 21, 2012 17:55:20 GMT
I'm equally amazed that people will think our wide men will turn into Christiano Ronaldo and John Barnes because Kenwyne fucking Jones is playing!
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Post by werrington on Nov 21, 2012 18:04:14 GMT
I'm equally amazed that people will think our wide men will turn into Christiano Ronaldo and John Barnes because Kenwyne fucking Jones is playing! You mean they wont!!!...fuck me ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/3zptH1h3SvRnVmRGLyMP.gif)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2012 18:09:02 GMT
I'm equally amazed that people will think our wide men will turn into Christiano Ronaldo and John Barnes because Kenwyne fucking Jones is playing! Looking like another reasonably large fuck up either way Sheiky.
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Nov 21, 2012 18:20:08 GMT
Simple, Jones aint one of Pulis's blue eyed boys.
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Post by timbo1988 on Nov 21, 2012 18:25:39 GMT
I'm equally amazed that people will think our wide men will turn into Christiano Ronaldo and John Barnes because Kenwyne fucking Jones is playing! They won't but remember that season we got to the cup final how well etherington played and he was on the verge of england. Pennant wasn't far behind. Since crouch has played they haven't had a game at that level between them.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Nov 21, 2012 18:46:23 GMT
I'm equally amazed that people will think our wide men will turn into Christiano Ronaldo and John Barnes because Kenwyne fucking Jones is playing! They won't but remember that season we got to the cup final how well etherington played and he was on the verge of england. Pennant wasn't far behind. Since crouch has played they haven't had a game at that level between them. Next you'll be blaming Crouch for making Pennant get pissed and forgetting he was banned from driving and for Etherington not beating one man for nearly two years. Is he the new Kitson? Shotton got pulled inside and allowed a free cross across our goal, Shawcross got caught the wrong side of his man and they scored. Who's to blame? Crouchy of course.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2012 18:49:23 GMT
They won't but remember that season we got to the cup final how well etherington played and he was on the verge of england. Pennant wasn't far behind. Since crouch has played they haven't had a game at that level between them. Next you'll be blaming Crouch for making Pennant get pissed and forgetting he was banned from driving and for Etherington not beating one man for nearly two years. Is he the new Kitson? Shotton got pulled inside and allowed a free cross across our goal, Shawcross got caught the wrong side of his man and they scored. Who's to blame? Crouchy of course. Remind me of your explanation for the lack of goals over the last two seasons again?
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Post by werrington on Nov 21, 2012 18:49:42 GMT
They won't but remember that season we got to the cup final how well etherington played and he was on the verge of england. Pennant wasn't far behind. Since crouch has played they haven't had a game at that level between them. Next you'll be blaming Crouch for making Pennant get pissed and forgetting he was banned from driving and for Etherington not beating one man for nearly two years. Is he the new Kitson? Shotton got pulled inside and allowed a free cross across our goal, Shawcross got caught the wrong side of his man and they scored. Who's to blame? Crouchy of course. Just digressing momo but he wasnt Shawcross,s man mate.....he was the centre half who ventured forward and wasnt picked up by anybody....Shawcross was desperately pointing at somebody to pick up the man he had to leave and was then in 2 minds as to who to pick up
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Post by roylandstoke on Nov 21, 2012 18:52:59 GMT
I'm equally amazed that people will think our wide men will turn into Christiano Ronaldo and John Barnes because Kenwyne fucking Jones is playing! Ronaldo and Barnes wouldn't track back enough to play for Tony Pulis. I'd be happy if our wide men turned back into Pennant and Etherington, and if Jon Walters turned back into SJW. If our midfield players became able to play forward paces into spaces for forwards to run into and win the set pieces that we're so good at would be nice too. Massive coincidence that we lost all these qualities at the same time isn't it?
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Post by roylandstoke on Nov 21, 2012 19:01:04 GMT
Next you'll be blaming Crouch for making Pennant get pissed and forgetting he was banned from driving and for Etherington not beating one man for nearly two years. Is he the new Kitson? Shotton got pulled inside and allowed a free cross across our goal, Shawcross got caught the wrong side of his man and they scored. Who's to blame? Crouchy of course. Remind me of your explanation for the lack of goals over the last two seasons again? I think it goes something like; everyone in the team is unable to put the ball on Crouch's head on all of the occasions he is unmarked and standing within six yards of the centre of the opposition goal. With the right service Peter Crouch ( like any striker ) would score dozens of goals. Sadly at Stoke all our other attacking players just aren't good enough. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/0m0lbCuTEBzaRn6f8QaM.gif)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2012 19:13:18 GMT
Remind me of your explanation for the lack of goals over the last two seasons again? I think it goes something like; everyone in the team is unable to put the ball on Crouch's head on all of the occasions he is unmarked and standing within six yards of the centre of the opposition goal. With the right service Peter Crouch ( like any striker ) would score dozens of goals. Sadly at Stoke all our other attacking players just aren't good enough. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/0m0lbCuTEBzaRn6f8QaM.gif) Yeah, 'with the right service', 'with more support', 'with other players near him'. None of which we set up to play or have ever been set up to play under this manager.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Nov 21, 2012 19:17:42 GMT
Next you'll be blaming Crouch for making Pennant get pissed and forgetting he was banned from driving and for Etherington not beating one man for nearly two years. Is he the new Kitson? Shotton got pulled inside and allowed a free cross across our goal, Shawcross got caught the wrong side of his man and they scored. Who's to blame? Crouchy of course. Remind me of your explanation for the lack of goals over the last two seasons again? Our last two years are in line with the first two years of goals. The 46 we scored in the Cup Final year was down to several factors, one of them a keen and interested Kenwyne and wingers on top of their game (not to mention two free scoring centre halves) and some awful defensive teams (several conceding over 60 goals). Lack of goals is the Pulis way. The system is wrong but I don't think Crouch is as much the crux of it as you think - and I completely disagree that Kenwyne is the medicine to cure it. We have one winger who is degrading like a Yoghurt in the desert, we have one who is apparently the second coming for some, making zero impact in the Championship and we have another, who I quite like and may have a few goals in him (that we've completely lost from other positions) but is dropped in favour of # 1 son SJW. I'm not saying that things are barmy, they aren't but we we have been very good on occasion this season and on those occasions Crouch has been on the field. There isn't a shred of evidence that he is the 'problem' and even less that Jones is the answer, Rob.
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Post by superjonnywalters on Nov 21, 2012 19:18:05 GMT
Next you'll be blaming Crouch for making Pennant get pissed and forgetting he was banned from driving and for Etherington not beating one man for nearly two years. Is he the new Kitson? Shotton got pulled inside and allowed a free cross across our goal, Shawcross got caught the wrong side of his man and they scored. Who's to blame? Crouchy of course. Remind me of your explanation for the lack of goals over the last two seasons again? Do you not know how Tony Pulis sets his sides up to play? Maybe its the tactics that make us a low scoring team? Its not like its a new problem affecting us since Crouch signed.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2012 19:24:11 GMT
Remind me of your explanation for the lack of goals over the last two seasons again? Do you not know how Tony Pulis sets his sides up to play? Maybe its the tactics that make us a low scoring team? Its not like its a new problem affecting us since Crouch signed. Of course it's the tactics man, that's the point! That's why the signing of Crouch compounded the problem - we're set up primarily not to concede and to hit teams on the break. You have to have someone reasonably rapid up front to do that and to open up space for other players as well. Crouch is an excellent player but he thrives on support from attacking midfielders and/or a proper strike partner, two things that we don't provide. He's done brilliant to score as many as he has but the team's attacking play has suffered because plan A has been crippled by a lack of pace.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Nov 21, 2012 19:24:18 GMT
Next you'll be blaming Crouch for making Pennant get pissed and forgetting he was banned from driving and for Etherington not beating one man for nearly two years. Is he the new Kitson? Shotton got pulled inside and allowed a free cross across our goal, Shawcross got caught the wrong side of his man and they scored. Who's to blame? Crouchy of course. Just digressing momo but he wasnt Shawcross,s man mate.....he was the centre half who ventured forward and wasnt picked up by anybody....Shawcross was desperately pointing at somebody to pick up the man he had to leave and was then in 2 minds as to who to pick up Yes sorry, I agree mate, he wasn't to blame as such he was doing the work of two men at the time but on the replay it really looks like he did not anticipate the quick square ball. It looked like he had time to get the right side, put in a barge do anything but put in the hopeful foot that he did. Not to blame but I expect better from the lad because he's excellent.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2012 19:30:04 GMT
Remind me of your explanation for the lack of goals over the last two seasons again? Our last two years are in line with the first two years of goals. The 46 we scored in the Cup Final year was down to several factors, one of them a keen and interested Kenwyne and wingers on top of their game (not to mention two free scoring centre halves) and some awful defensive teams (several conceding over 60 goals). Lack of goals is the Pulis way. The system is wrong but I don't think Crouch is as much the crux of it as you think - and I completely disagree that Kenwyne is the medicine to cure it. We have one winger who is degrading like a Yoghurt in the desert, we have one who is apparently the second coming for some, making zero impact in the Championship and we have another, who I quite like and may have a few goals in him (that we've completely lost from other positions) but is dropped in favour of # 1 son SJW. I'm not saying that things are barmy, they aren't but we we have been very good on occasion this season and on those occasions Crouch has been on the field. There isn't a shred of evidence that he is the 'problem' and even less that Jones is the answer, Rob. It seems like you're hiding behind this straw man argument surrounding Jones, Sheiky. I don't so much think that Jones is the answer as think that Crouch isn't. You say yourself that last year's return was in line with the first two years of goals. I can't be arsed to check that so will take your word for it. Assuming that's right, that pretty much underlines the argument about us regressing last season. Shouldn't we have looked to build on the cup final season by taking what worked and building on it rather than tearing it up? Sticking with two wingers, trying to find someone who could do what an in form Jones did but do it more often, that kind of thing? We don't look especially better than we did two years ago even before the cup run, despite spending another £30m since then.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Nov 21, 2012 19:33:52 GMT
Our last two years are in line with the first two years of goals. The 46 we scored in the Cup Final year was down to several factors, one of them a keen and interested Kenwyne and wingers on top of their game (not to mention two free scoring centre halves) and some awful defensive teams (several conceding over 60 goals). Lack of goals is the Pulis way. The system is wrong but I don't think Crouch is as much the crux of it as you think - and I completely disagree that Kenwyne is the medicine to cure it. We have one winger who is degrading like a Yoghurt in the desert, we have one who is apparently the second coming for some, making zero impact in the Championship and we have another, who I quite like and may have a few goals in him (that we've completely lost from other positions) but is dropped in favour of # 1 son SJW. I'm not saying that things are barmy, they aren't but we we have been very good on occasion this season and on those occasions Crouch has been on the field. There isn't a shred of evidence that he is the 'problem' and even less that Jones is the answer, Rob. It seems like you're hiding behind this straw man argument surrounding Jones, Sheiky. I don't so much think that Jones is the answer as think that Crouch isn't. You say yourself that last year's return was in line with the first two years of goals. I can't be arsed to check that so will take your word for it. Assuming that's right, that pretty much underlines the argument about us regressing last season. Shouldn't we have looked to build on the cup final season by taking what worked and building on it rather than tearing it up? Sticking with two wingers, trying to find someone who could do what an in form Jones did but do it more often, that kind of thing? We don't look especially better than we did two years ago even before the cup run, despite spending another £30m since then. It's not straw man though Rob, it seems to be your actual argument. Are you blaming Crouch for the fact that we've lost 8 goals from our defenders from that season?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2012 19:40:31 GMT
It seems like you're hiding behind this straw man argument surrounding Jones, Sheiky. I don't so much think that Jones is the answer as think that Crouch isn't. You say yourself that last year's return was in line with the first two years of goals. I can't be arsed to check that so will take your word for it. Assuming that's right, that pretty much underlines the argument about us regressing last season. Shouldn't we have looked to build on the cup final season by taking what worked and building on it rather than tearing it up? Sticking with two wingers, trying to find someone who could do what an in form Jones did but do it more often, that kind of thing? We don't look especially better than we did two years ago even before the cup run, despite spending another £30m since then. It's not straw man though Rob, it seems to be your actual argument. Are you blaming Crouch for the fact that we've lost 8 goals from our defenders from that season? It's clearly not my argument Sheiky. Reread my posts on this very thread. I've repeatedly said that an in-form Jones is a better option but because he can't be relied on to perform often enough he is a red herring in the argument. I've also explained as others have the pace and space theory which you're happy to write off as me being a 'pompous, tactical bore' (guilty) but would prefer to buy into the coincidence fairy argument. The two wingers declined of their own volition no question. But if that was the only factor we'd surely have had more joy with other players playing in those positions?
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Post by roylandstoke on Nov 21, 2012 19:41:42 GMT
The lack of goals may be the "Pulis way" and we are excelling at it this year. After 12 games we have scored less goals and got less points than we did with the side that regularly featured Mama Sidibie and Dave Kitson upfront, and Richard Cresswell and Rory Delap on the wings achieved after 12 games in 2008.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Nov 21, 2012 19:47:25 GMT
It's not straw man though Rob, it seems to be your actual argument. Are you blaming Crouch for the fact that we've lost 8 goals from our defenders from that season? It's clearly not my argument Sheiky. Reread my posts on this very thread. I've repeatedly said that an in-form Jones is a better option but because he can't be relied on to perform often enough he is a red herring in the argument. I've also explained as others have the pace and space theory which you're happy to write off as me being a 'pompous, tactical bore' (guilty) but would prefer to buy into the coincidence fairy argument. The two wingers declined of their own volition no question. But if that was the only factor we'd surely have had more joy with other players playing in those positions? Would you agree that Man Utd away, Chelsea away and parts of West Ham and Wigan were as good as we've played away from home in five seasons though Rob? I would and Crouch featured in them all. I'd like us to be more daring at home but we're damned solid, I'd like Pulis to have more balls but there is plenty of evidence of us playing very well with Crouch up top. It's as much an attitude thing as a system one for me.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2012 19:52:38 GMT
It's clearly not my argument Sheiky. Reread my posts on this very thread. I've repeatedly said that an in-form Jones is a better option but because he can't be relied on to perform often enough he is a red herring in the argument. I've also explained as others have the pace and space theory which you're happy to write off as me being a 'pompous, tactical bore' (guilty) but would prefer to buy into the coincidence fairy argument. The two wingers declined of their own volition no question. But if that was the only factor we'd surely have had more joy with other players playing in those positions? Would you agree that Man Utd away, Chelsea away and parts of West Ham and Wigan were as good as we've played away from home in five seasons though Rob? I would and Crouch featured in them all. I'd like us to be more daring at home but we're damned solid, I'd like Pulis to have more balls but there is plenty of evidence of us playing very well with Crouch up top. It's as much an attitude thing as a system one for me. I didn't see Wigan but I thought we were very good for half an hour at Man Yoo and Crouch played his part in that. I thought we were good at Chelsea but still not enormously threatening and we were good first half at West Ham. Say this is the way forward and nothing's going to change. What do we have then? A team that's essentially like the one of the first two seasons and last season, winning a few games by the odd set piece goal to claw enough points to a respectable finish? Shouldn't we be aspiring to better than that? Shouldn't we at least aim to recapture that golden period of a couple of years back? You often talk about Stoke fans needing to 'know how to lose' yet results have on the whole been poor this year. Do you see that changing with this set up?
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