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Post by padders01 on Apr 6, 2012 21:12:23 GMT
MW, which makes this investment even more strange!
Is this the end of Pulis? Has Coates issued Pulis an ultimatum? No more spending, more kids?
Something has to give, surely
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Post by seddonstandviewer on Apr 6, 2012 21:21:04 GMT
David Wright runs it, Dave Kevan is the head coach. To my mind, Wright has no previous affinity to Pulis and Kevan has been sacked by him once. The part you missed (and I understand what it looks like from a distance) is that Pulis then strangles it. I have sat in rooms with people from Pulis down discussing matters academy and I can tell you that nothing happens without his hand in it where it really matters. Ninety percent of it he cannot be bothered with. He ignores his coaches recommendations and acts on the basis you wouldnt or could not credit. The suggestions that it should be seperate from Pulis are understandable but in term sof how he has set up the football management at the club and in terms of reality it will not and cannot be. However when it is fact that I have seen Sir Alex Ferguson at more Stoke Academy matches than Tony Pulis it tells a story. Not interested except in a suppressive manner. I appreciate that Mark and know from the tit-bits you've fed onto here that you've been involved in the Academy setup to some degree over the past with your lad (how's he doing by the way?). With that knowledge and info you've given, it further enhances my position about why the hell Pulis is still here, given how much Peter Coates thinks of the Academy and the future of the club? I take the argument about the short term stability Pulis has given the club by getting and keeping us at the club in the short term but isn't there no greater time like the present to get rid of him and instill a manager who can give us a modicum of short term stability and one that enhances the longer term vision of the club from the Academy? I like Pulis a lot, but on one hand I don't see the point of carrying on with him until a certain point in the future, with the club so many millions lighter from outrageous transfers if that money could have been halved now and diverted elsewhere. Something just isn't sitting right with this argument for me. What exactly is Coates doing and what exactly is Terry Robinson doing?
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Post by chell_rosey on Apr 6, 2012 21:22:48 GMT
David Wright runs it, Dave Kevan is the head coach. To my mind, Wright has no previous affinity to Pulis and Kevan has been sacked by him once. The part you missed (and I understand what it looks like from a distance) is that Pulis then strangles it. I have sat in rooms with people from Pulis down discussing matters academy and I can tell you that nothing happens without his hand in it where it really matters. Ninety percent of it he cannot be bothered with. He ignores his coaches recommendations and acts on the basis you wouldnt or could not credit. The suggestions that it should be seperate from Pulis are understandable but in term sof how he has set up the football management at the club and in terms of reality it will not and cannot be. However when it is fact that I have seen Sir Alex Ferguson at more Stoke Academy matches than Tony Pulis it tells a story. Not interested except in a suppressive manner. That's both annoying and scary. At some point PC will (must) verbally come to blows with TP on this. I hope so, anyway.
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Post by yogibear78 on Apr 6, 2012 23:08:30 GMT
Eerie that someone spends so much of their time looking up news on other teams yes. If you don't know that there is a significant amount of animosity surrounding Moyes at Everton then you don't follow football that closely. Considering the players Moyes brings to the club imagine how they would get on with our manager! Purchasing Average players at premium prices, playing half your team out of position, HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOF, reguarly falling out with players then making the team suffer for prolonged periods, 2 league goals from open play in 11 games, ignorance of the academy and overseas scouting to name just a few. If they can slag Moyes then Pulis would go down like a lead ballon there. Pulis' spending on mediocre products in on par with Roy Keane at Sunderland. If Mr Coates reads this then do the sensible thing, give him no more funds, IF we are planning another spree anytime soon, you must know it'd make sense to get someone like Moyes in to spend it.
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Post by swampySCFC on Apr 6, 2012 23:36:24 GMT
If we had put our eggs in the Academy basket we would never have seen the Premiership, FA Cup Final or Europe.
Crewe are struggling to keep their academy going. As the ultimate exponents of it then it sends a message out that its not too easy to do unless you are producing regular talent and selling it on
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Post by tazi on Apr 6, 2012 23:56:55 GMT
I didnt realise there were so many experts on here.
Well done to those oatie posters that know eyerything. Now take a bow.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2012 0:10:01 GMT
David Wright runs it, Dave Kevan is the head coach. To my mind, Wright has no previous affinity to Pulis and Kevan has been sacked by him once. The part you missed (and I understand what it looks like from a distance) is that Pulis then strangles it. I have sat in rooms with people from Pulis down discussing matters academy and I can tell you that nothing happens without his hand in it where it really matters. Ninety percent of it he cannot be bothered with. He ignores his coaches recommendations and acts on the basis you wouldnt or could not credit. The suggestions that it should be seperate from Pulis are understandable but in term sof how he has set up the football management at the club and in terms of reality it will not and cannot be. However when it is fact that I have seen Sir Alex Ferguson at more Stoke Academy matches than Tony Pulis it tells a story. Not interested except in a suppressive manner. Pulis' mandate is and always was , to keep us in the Premiership . This he has successfully achieved under immense pressure and adverse criticism from all quarters. When placed in such a pressurized position , then it shouldn't be too difficult to appreciate where the managers priorities lie and therefore certain allowances for this should be made. To focus on one particular frailty is in my view wholly unfair . What we should all focus on , is what happens from now on in , and make no mistake St Peter still has his finger on the pulse and will take whatever course of action he feels is appropriate whether Tony Pulis likes it or not. The investment in our academy he clearly sees as the long term aim and rightly so. It also needs top quality coaches and continued investment in the future , which I feel sure St Peter will give generously towards.... Tony will eventually get the message , but in the meantime lets just allow him to do the job that no other manager has been able to do for over a quarter of a century ...namely keep us up in the top flight for another year.!
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Post by ColonelMustard on Apr 7, 2012 6:39:07 GMT
Much has been discussed about the three year plan and the European distraction and failure of trhe wingers and Palacios to perform. If next year does see any positive change could it also indicate a shift in attitude towards the acadamy? Assuming the acadamy has anything to offer right now.
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Post by elystokie on Apr 7, 2012 6:42:57 GMT
MW, which makes this investment even more strange! Is this the end of Pulis? Has Coates issued Pulis an ultimatum? No more spending, more kids? Something has to give, surely We all know what happens with Pulis and ultimatums. Here's hoping...
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Post by french toast on Apr 7, 2012 7:06:24 GMT
Much has been discussed about the three year plan and the European distraction and failure of trhe wingers and Palacios to perform. If next year does see any positive change could it also indicate a shift in attitude towards the acadamy? Assuming the acadamy has anything to offer right now. our academy doesnt have much to offer though, this is the point tony is making
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Post by knype on Apr 7, 2012 7:07:15 GMT
For a club like Stoke to stay financially viable and stable in the Premier league we need talent coming through the ranks....
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Post by frasier99 on Apr 7, 2012 7:21:08 GMT
MW, which makes this investment even more strange! Is this the end of Pulis? Has Coates issued Pulis an ultimatum? No more spending, more kids? Something has to give, surely It's probably just fantasy but, i've got to admit i was thinking along those lines too.
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Post by french toast on Apr 7, 2012 7:37:13 GMT
MW, which makes this investment even more strange! Is this the end of Pulis? Has Coates issued Pulis an ultimatum? No more spending, more kids? Something has to give, surely It's probably just fantasy but, i've got to admit i was thinking along those lines too. it is just fantasy, we get the same shit on here every season, mon in pulis upstairs etc
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Post by frasier99 on Apr 7, 2012 8:14:30 GMT
just let me dream will you.....spoil sport ;D
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Post by french toast on Apr 7, 2012 8:47:47 GMT
Arsenal are what we need to look at as a club who embraced what we are looking to achieve.......squad spending still is needed not at our current rate but at a decent amount per year
Or perhaps west ham are the club we need to avoid becoming like?
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Post by spuddymagoo on Apr 7, 2012 9:16:20 GMT
I think most are missing the point here.
PC is the Chairman, and the Chairman of the company (particularly in PC's financial position) owns the overall strategy and direction. His managers, such as TP, are tasked with delivering the strategy day-to-day.
The very fact that PC has made a public statement regarding the academy says one of two things. Either PC wants a public and clearly defined split in core strategy, where the academy becomes a separate business unit (for want of a better phrase) and he is showing public support and commitment to that new business unit. Or, he is firing a shot across TP's bow publically following the failure of internal, private pressure to get him to manage the academy more effectively.
Knowing a little of how these things operate and looking at past PC strategy (and knowing a little of the qualities of the man) I cannot for a minute believe that PC would risk or want a public row with TP on any subject.
Therefore, my conclusions are that PC wants a strategy that is split between academy and core business, i.e Premiership Football, and he sees TP's role as looking after the 1st team and not having hands on involvement with the academy going forward. After all, it's not TP's strong point to nurture youth.
I expect to see more movement at a management level in the academy and more investment in it, along with continued investment in the first team. I believe TP will continue to do what he does to keep us in the Premiership until such time as the academy strategy begins to bring through real quality (not Ben Marshall, but real quality) and then PC has a decision to make.
His decision then (and it may be 5-7 years down the line) is do I continue with the two stream strategy i.e academy and Premiership separately, or do I know combine them into one? If they are combined, I do not see TP keeping his job, unless he can demonstrate the ability to use organic resources i.e youth progressing through the ranks, which he does not have a good track record of, or so it seems.
If however they are kept separately, I cannot see TP working in partnership with another manager for the youth set-up to encourage youngsters into the first team, as he simply does not have the track record to show that he can do this. Then PC may have a management problem if his management team cannot deliver his overall strategy, and something will have to give...probably TP would have to go at that point, as PC has clearly demonstrated that he wants an organic, academy lead business.
Therefore, there is only an upside to this situation; we will develop a great academy and continue to focus on premiership survival, and when the time is right we will bring through our own first team players whether this is with TP or not.
If I was TP, I would be reconsidering my belief in youth over the next 2-3 years, or I would be giving my Stoke career as manager a 3-5 year window at most.
Real and fundamental change is underway, and the next few years will see a major shift in SCFC as a business model.
IMHO ;D
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Post by sheikhmomo on Apr 7, 2012 9:18:58 GMT
There aren't some Mary Anne's on here at what were the most innocuous of comments.
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Post by Stoke70 on Apr 7, 2012 9:38:16 GMT
Remember in January when PC said " we will sign nobody in this transfer window " with TP saying the next day " don't believe the chairman, we will sign two or three ". PC was right and maybe he started to change his point of view on TP and investing in academy could be the next step in PC strategy to show who is the number one at this club.
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Post by wuzza on Apr 7, 2012 9:38:48 GMT
This thread is straw-clutching at its worst by some of the usual suspects but as a final thought from me - how many Premier League clubs live and die on how succesful their Academy is ?? Its a nice idea in principle but frankly its always going to be on the periphery of events at first team level (Middlesbro had a great youth system and then .......)
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Post by RAF on Apr 7, 2012 9:45:27 GMT
This thread is straw-clutching at its worst by some of the usual suspects but as a final thought from me - how many Premier League clubs live and die on how succesful their Academy is ?? Its a nice idea in principle but frankly its always going to be on the periphery of events at first team level (Middlesbro had a great youth system and then .......) You are right Wuzza. Why would a club take a youth academy seriously? It's just like an extra frill to the club and not much use really is it? TP should demand that 6 mill for another Whithead and Collins and sell the new training ground to Barratts. After all TP has already said he only needs a basic pitch to train on. It's probably the reason Palacios is still not fit, he's been too busy gazing at the new buildings instead of doing his squat thrusts. H
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Post by Stoke70 on Apr 7, 2012 9:46:43 GMT
This thread is straw-clutching at its worst by some of the usual suspects but as a final thought from me - how many Premier League clubs live and die on how succesful their Academy is ?? Its a nice idea in principle but frankly its always going to be on the periphery of events at first team level (Middlesbro had a great youth system and then .......) It's preferable for the club to invest 6m£ in academy than in players like Davies (1.7m£), Soares (2m£) and Tonge (2m£).
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Post by wuzza on Apr 7, 2012 10:15:14 GMT
Crushed by the sarcasm RAF but tell me which club it is the major source of success.
As for the poor signings - you could say that about anywhere - tot up the money even the greatest of managers have wasted and it would settle the national debt.
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Post by RAF on Apr 7, 2012 10:23:20 GMT
Crushed by the sarcasm RAF but tell me which club it is the major source of success. As for the poor signings - you could say that about anywhere - tot up the money even the greatest of managers have wasted and it would settle the national debt. It's hardly sarcasm, it's pretty much what Pulis would have done had it not been for Coates and Phil Rawlins telling him to wind his neck in. Ajax, Barcelona, West Ham, Liverpool, Manure, Santos, Real Madrid to name but a few who's youth systems are major sources of success. H
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Post by Pugsley on Apr 7, 2012 10:23:26 GMT
Crushed by the sarcasm RAF but tell me which club it is the major source of success. As for the poor signings - you could say that about anywhere - tot up the money even the greatest of managers have wasted and it would settle the national debt. Only the most successful League club in England. Also, current best team on the planet is riddled with home grown players.
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Post by frasier99 on Apr 7, 2012 10:27:15 GMT
Surely having good kids to come through sell is a good source of income compared to spending high on old has been donkeys on high wages
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Post by wuzza on Apr 7, 2012 10:54:29 GMT
The Man Utd example applied 20 years back but its a very different set up now than it was then - its like the league of nations - stacks of players attracted by £££s. The odd one comes through but there again they have for us to.
I honestly think you guys should be directing your venom at the scouting system - that definitley needs something throwing at it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2012 10:55:27 GMT
Always supported pulis, but think this is bit of a joke. Jobs for the boys, perhaps sidibe could coach our attackers or could heather mills do a better job.
Always thought investing well in the academy would be big step forward but with pulis, obviously not.
Thank you tony but it is time to go. Think you are now putting you personal achievements before the club.
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Post by RAF on Apr 7, 2012 10:59:20 GMT
The Man Utd example applied 20 years back but its a very different set up now than it was then - its like the league of nations - stacks of players attracted by £££s. The odd one comes through but there again they have for us to. I honestly think you guys should be directing your venom at the scouting system - that definitley needs something throwing at it. I see you totally ignore all but one of my examples. As for Manure, if it wasn't for their youth setup we wouldn't have our captain. We gained a player they gained nealy 2 mill, its another win win for the youth system. As for our scouting system, it's a disgrace, but considering it was one of TP's mates abroad, who was withdrawn last year due to not finding any foreign talent, it's not money that needs throwing at it, it's someone who knows what they are doing and looking for. H
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Post by sheikhmomo on Apr 7, 2012 11:04:36 GMT
The current system is failing across the English game. This 'new system' will not produce better players and it abuses smaller clubs. It fucking stinks.
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Post by ColonelMustard on Apr 7, 2012 11:10:29 GMT
Good post spuddy. If you turn out to be right and Pulis starts to use youth players in a few years, then posters on this thread that are saying "he will never..." will just say he's been forced to and think they were right all along. There is a special form of being right on the oatcake that is suspiciously like being wrong in the real world.
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