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Post by evans1863 on Feb 12, 2009 13:00:22 GMT
From what I saw of the game (Yes apathy has really set in) Beckham looked Ok, good ball played through for Cole and dint seem to pull out of challenges as I've seen him do in the past. Edit: Watched last 10, so if Beckham played well before that then no comment He's not a great player, I wouldnt even say hes a very good player, as Huddy says he's a better than average player, who IMO is making moves for as much to do with his media image as his footballing ability.
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Post by Etain Tur-Mukan on Feb 12, 2009 13:50:40 GMT
Fantastic player, he'll go down in history as one of our best ever imo.
I really hope he beats Peter Shilton's record.
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Post by Will_75 on Feb 12, 2009 13:54:28 GMT
he'd propbably have 119 if it wasn't for that grinning idiot Shteve McLaren
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Post by Beardy200 on Feb 12, 2009 14:03:49 GMT
Fantastic player, he'll go down in history as one of our best ever imo. I really hope he beats Peter Shilton's record. I don't mind him beating the records as i'm not nieve enough to think the game hasn't changed, subs have come in and we play more games etc etc. That being said people seem to "believe" that the more caps you get the better player you must be. I disagree with this as you can get caps based on the other players of your era competing for your place. Beckham has had very little competition for his place over the years and so it's been made easier. It's all subjective though and you can put up a case for allsorts if you use the right stats: Is Beckham better than Moore? .... debate all you want. Are Phil Neville & Heskey better than Hoddle, Hudson & Greaves? ..... by this argument i suppose they must be but i think we all know they aren't fit to lace up their boots. Good luck to Beckham as his application, passion, enthusiasm and dedication is second to none but do i believe he's one of our BEST EVER players .... not even close i'm afraid.
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Post by evans1863 on Feb 12, 2009 14:36:41 GMT
Beckham better than Matthews? Better than Ball? Better than Finney? ...
As Trumpton says just because he's got a lot of caps doesnt make him great, I'd put him in the "better than average" camp with a media circus thats given him a hugely inflated reputation of being "World Class".
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Post by evans1863 on Feb 12, 2009 14:38:37 GMT
he'd propbably have 119 if it wasn't for that grinning idiot Shteve McLaren He'd probably have about 90 if spineless Sven hadnt picked him regardless of his abysmal performances.
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Post by th05 on Feb 12, 2009 14:41:41 GMT
He is a top professional, really hope he goes to Milan, and he was a downsight better than SWP.
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Post by Will_75 on Feb 12, 2009 14:58:33 GMT
touché evans
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Post by Etain Tur-Mukan on Feb 12, 2009 15:11:48 GMT
I don't believe the more caps you've got the better player you are, i've never said that. Our own Hudson hardly had any and he was a fantastic player.
I didn't say he was better than Matthews, Finney, Ball, Hurst or anyone. I said he'll go down as one of our best ever which will be alongside players like that.
He doesn't have a hugely inflated reputation of being "World Class" either, he was and is still in some respects World Class. Just look at the clubs he has played consistently for and helped to win titles at - Manchester Utd, Real Madrid, AC Milan.
How many other England players from any time can say similar? There is no way any of those teams would have played him regularly if he wasn't world class and was just there to sell shirts.
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Post by evans1863 on Feb 12, 2009 15:20:15 GMT
"He doesn't have a hugely inflated reputation of being "World Class" either, he was and is still in some respects World Class. Just look at the clubs he has played consistently for and helped to win titles at - Manchester Utd, Real Madrid, AC Milan. " Sorry Etain, but what did he win in four years at Madrid? Ahh yes a trophy in the last season, the one that Capello dropped him for over half the games. Now I assume you werent being serious when you put Milan. Manure have failed without him? Fergie couldnt wait to get rid of him, Beckham's image was getting bigger than the club and Fergie didnt like it. Like I said the other week, thoughts on Steve Macmanamanamanmansmanamamanamanamanan then? Edit: Football is all about opinions obviously, but I share George Best's view on him; he doesnt tackle, cant head it, stands on his left foot only, wont beat a man and IMO since 2002 he has severely under-performed for England when it really matters. He was terrible in 2002, terrible in 2004 and diabolical in 2006, im sure he must have had some dirt on Sven Cresswell style
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Post by Etain Tur-Mukan on Feb 12, 2009 15:44:52 GMT
Steve McManaman never lifted England like Beckham has done in the past. I never said Man Utd have failed without him either. One trophy at Madrid is better than none is it not? Capello dropped Beckham but he soon had him back didn't he? Beckham played over half of the league games that season, about 10 were missed due to injury as well. No i'm not joking about Milan, he's already proving what an asset to the team he'd be. which is the major reason why they want to sign him (that and the shirt thing ) I don't think Becks was terrible in 02, nor 04 when we robbed to be honest. In 2006 he was still one of our most influential players imo with a goal or two and a few assists. George Best was a piece of drunken shit, he probably thought he was on about Paul Parker (maybe a bit before Becks' time at ManUre! ) or Gary Neville when asked for his comments.
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Post by SALIFDIAOOO on Feb 12, 2009 15:53:00 GMT
So in my eyes he has only got 98 proper caps. He has 99 starts.
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Post by evans1863 on Feb 12, 2009 16:10:16 GMT
Bar Greece when else has Beckham dragged us out of the shit? Certainly not N.Ireland, of France, or Turkey away, or Brazil, or Portugal, or Macedonia ...
One trophy is better than one, and at a team like Villareal then thats quite an achievement, but the fact is that period must go down as one of Real's worst ever, lack of trophy wise. Injuries aside my point being he was a regular in 3 season, then played half a season in one and won his only trophy.
I come across extremely anti-Beckham which I dont intend to do, he's not the most talented player in the world and admits it, he's done well to get the amount of caps he has despite IMO being so limited and that shows how dedicated he was. However I also must stress that he could have become so much more if he'd knuckled down at Manure and gone the Giggs route, as opposed to pin-up boy "Golden Balls" who at times let his media image take priority over football. It does annoy me when people compare him to the likes of Matthew's because pure and simply he couldnt lace the boots of the truely great players.
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Post by Etain Tur-Mukan on Feb 12, 2009 16:21:10 GMT
That Greece game is more than enough for me Becks was unlucky in that he joined Real when the stars were slowly fading of the other top players there. I totally agree that he's no the most talented player in the world, but i damn wish i had that much talent in my right foot!
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Post by GrandStokie on Feb 12, 2009 16:39:54 GMT
He deserves it and he's been a great Ambassador for the game, Bobby Moore would not have denied Beckham the record.
His whole attitude and approach to the game changed when Peter Taylor gave him the captaincy, he was proud to wear the armband he always led from the front. He has and always will be a great player imho and he fully deserves the credit for his services to his country.
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Post by Baggs on Feb 13, 2009 9:18:27 GMT
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Post by Etain Tur-Mukan on Feb 13, 2009 14:33:37 GMT
David Beckham's record-equalling night in Seville has split opinion between those who say it would be churlish not to join in the celebrations, before acting churlishly, and those that eschew congratulations altogether and skip straight to churlishness.
Embrace not his unbridled efforts, his virtuoso display against Greece to qualify England for the 2002 World Cup but instead offer hollow applause that sneers of 'style over substance', as if he has single-handedly been the architect of every failing of the national side since winning a first cap against Moldova in 1996.
That Beckham's substitute appearance - in a game that demonstrated why Spain are European champions and England still a work in progress - equalled World Cup winning captain Bobby Moore's record number of caps for an outfield player appears to be a moot point.
There can be no denying Moore's greatness. An exemplary leader with a charismatic glint in his eye, the West Ham and Fulham stalwart drew nothing but praise from such luminaries as Franz Beckenbauer and Pele, with the latter hailing him 'as the greatest defender I ever played against'. That he was perennially described as a gentleman only adds to the charm.
Indeed the image of Moore and Pele swapping shirts after a gargantuan clash between the pair, in the sweltering Mexico heat of the 1970 World Cup, is as iconic as has ever been caught on film and yet, is it not to do a disservice to Beckham's achievement by first filtering it through a veil of historic perspective that by its very nature is sentimental and unforgiving to later generations?
Beckham, of course, is not just a footballer. His extra-curricular activities that include a panache for draping his naked torso over the cover of Attitude and having his manhood blown up to such epic proportions grown men have fainted with nausea upon being presented with the obligatory Christmas gift of Calvin Kleins, pushed Sir Alex Ferguson to boiling and eventually selling-point during their tumultuous time together at Old Trafford. It certainly deflects from the football and does him few favours.
How much of the glitz and ostentatious glamour is his making and how much is his wife's, or more pertinently PR guru Simon Fuller's (whose time they share) is subject to conjecture. However, even the staunchest of advocates accept Beckham loves the limelight. While on the field he'd argue his exploits for England recall Socrates' neat line of 'Fame is the perfume of heroic deeds', off it perhaps he's more Madonna: 'I won't be happy till I'm as famous as God.'
The point is that Beckham's non-sporting activities rankle. And yet, only a cursory glance at YouTube unearths vintage sixties gold, as Mr and Mrs Moore exude the virtues of a trip to the local pub, in a television advert no different to Beckham's for Gillette. He's not wearing Police sunglasses or a Dolce and Gabbana suit but he looks pretty dapper and Mrs Moore would certainly give Posh a run for her money.
Beckham is a product of his time; a consciousness that embraces the celebrity and banal in an era that he has defined and spun for his own means. But as a footballer he does not deserve to be pilloried or have his achievement undermined by unfavourable comparisons to a figure such as Moore, whom very few could match.
For sure the England sides he's played in and often captained have been suffocated by the grip of expectation and excelled only in underachievement but in reality, he is more symbol than cause of such events. At times he has looked wooden in pace and the move to Los Angeles was ill-conceived, ego-fuelled and arguably should have signalled the end of an international career, at the time shy of the century mark.
And yet, now, rejuvenated by a spell in the relative sedate surrounds of Italian football at AC Milan, where the mantra is one of 'though shall not lose the ball', Beckham is thriving again. Key will be whether he will be able to engineer a permanent exit from LA and kiss goodbye to Hollywood in favour of reality.
England are making genuine progress under Fabio Capello but while ball retention remains the proverbial Achilles heel, the likes of Shaun Wright-Phillips, Aaron Lennon, James Milner and Theo Walcott offer alternatives that are energetic but shy of international nous.
He's unlikely to be a starter any time soon, cue more criticism of caps that lasted less than 90 minutes, but his experience and delivery will continue to be utilised. There was no fanfare or trumpeters to herald Beckham's introduction as a half-time substitute in Seville, 'right wing' was probably all he got off Capello. But the Italian has genuine respect for a 33-year-old he flipped to the scrapheap, without complaint, before recalling in times of struggle during their title-winning campaign together at Real Madrid.
Beckham has been and remains a fine footballer and ambassador for his country. Reaching 108 caps is cause for celebration and while he'll almost certainly never guide England to World Cup glory, it's worth remembering only 17 other footballers have matched Bobby Moore's achievement of lifting football's golden prize.
He may not be Bobby, but he's not a bad alternative either.
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Post by Baggs on Feb 13, 2009 14:54:57 GMT
Sums it up pretty well
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Post by 58Potter on Feb 13, 2009 15:02:45 GMT
I have a lot of time for Mr. Beckham both on and off the pitch, still the best at pinging a quality ball into the box in the world for me, his choice in women however leaves me speechless..... do not even get me started on her
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Post by PotteringThrough on Feb 13, 2009 16:10:46 GMT
Talented footballer and certainly worth his caps.
People say he was out of form and shouldn't have been started but it wasn't too long ago that Steve 'the magician' McLaren decided to drop him. If that hadn't been the case and that mistake hadn't been made we may well have qualified for the last Euros.
He's never had any pace, but as others have said he doesn't need pace. Give him a yard and he is still one of the best crossers in the world which is why he has played for Man U, Madrid and Milan. He's realised that he can't stay in America as well if he wants to play for England so he's come back and actually made an impact at Milan.
Deserves to equal the record.
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Post by youareallwrong on Feb 13, 2009 16:28:36 GMT
Steve McManaman never lifted England like Beckham has done in the past. I never said Man Utd have failed without him either. One trophy at Madrid is better than none is it not? Capello dropped Beckham but he soon had him back didn't he? Beckham played over half of the league games that season, about 10 were missed due to injury as well. No i'm not joking about Milan, he's already proving what an asset to the team he'd be. which is the major reason why they want to sign him (that and the shirt thing ) I don't think Becks was terrible in 02, nor 04 when we robbed to be honest. In 2006 he was still one of our most influential players imo with a goal or two and a few assists. George Best was a piece of drunken shit, he probably thought he was on about Paul Parker (maybe a bit before Becks' time at ManUre! ) or Gary Neville when asked for his comments. The above just shows how little you know about football and what a tiny-minded know-fuckall you are. Beckham DEFINITELY isn't fit to wipe George Best's boots, or even lick the spilt ale off them. Grow up, why don't you.
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Post by Etain Tur-Mukan on Feb 13, 2009 18:08:04 GMT
Steve McManaman never lifted England like Beckham has done in the past. I never said Man Utd have failed without him either. One trophy at Madrid is better than none is it not? Capello dropped Beckham but he soon had him back didn't he? Beckham played over half of the league games that season, about 10 were missed due to injury as well. No i'm not joking about Milan, he's already proving what an asset to the team he'd be. which is the major reason why they want to sign him (that and the shirt thing ) I don't think Becks was terrible in 02, nor 04 when we robbed to be honest. In 2006 he was still one of our most influential players imo with a goal or two and a few assists. George Best was a piece of drunken shit, he probably thought he was on about Paul Parker (maybe a bit before Becks' time at ManUre! ) or Gary Neville when asked for his comments. The above just shows how little you know about football and what a tiny-minded know-fuckall you are. Beckham DEFINITELY isn't fit to wipe George Best's boots, or even lick the spilt ale off them. Grow up, why don't you. LOL No doubting how talented George Best was with a football, he was one of the best ever skill wise and i'm not saying Beckham is anywhere near as good. That doesn't change the fact that George Best was a drunken shit. He was given a liver when others in the same situation (apart from not being 'famous' of course) are often refused the chance of a transplant. Maybe if he hadn't wasted that opportunity...lol there was more chance of the sun not rising tomorrow. He was a drunken shit.
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Post by JoeinOz on Feb 13, 2009 23:02:43 GMT
Beckham is one of the few to emerge from the 06 WC with credit. Overall he's led his copuntry with pride and distinction. Now his legs can't cover a smuch ground he looked around for someone to carry the team forward and found his colleagues shitting their pants becaquse of they get too involved they might get their precious hairdo damged.
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Post by OldStokie on Feb 14, 2009 12:35:27 GMT
Comparing Beckham to Bobby Moore is rediculous. The only thing they have in common is the number of England caps they've won. That's not denigrating Beckham, I think he's been a great servant to England when he has been picked. Unlike some of the prima-donnas who think they're doing the country a favour by playing, Beckham has always worn the shirt with great pride. Never more so than the game against Greece when he turned in the best performace by an England player that I have ever seen. He played like three lions that night. He's not a 'Mathews' or a 'George Best' but as good as those two were, they couldn't cross a ball 20 yards from the byeline that was so accurate and so dangerous. The lad has his limitations but crossing the ball, placing pin-point 60 yard passes and giving 100% are not amongst them.
Well done that lad and I hope he goes on to beat Shilton's record.
OS.
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Post by th05 on Feb 14, 2009 13:03:19 GMT
If LA Galaxy ruin the end to his career and don't let him go, I will be furious. He made a big mistake going there career wise.
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Post by denman on Feb 14, 2009 13:49:25 GMT
Bar Greece when else has Beckham dragged us out of the shit? Certainly not N.Ireland, of France, or Turkey away, or Brazil, or Portugal, or Macedonia ... Finland, Ecuador are 2 off top of my head. Does Beckham deserve 108 ? Yes because as long SWP, Lennon etc are the alternatives he deserves a part of the England setup. Its the caps he deserves not the number and record. Look past the media crap of the shit rags like the sun and actually look at the alternatives. The limitations arguement I find amusing. I would not call someone with his vision, set piece play, crossing, passing, work ethic and general attitude limited. For some, pace and running at someone is all they want from a player, thats fine but when you cant pass, cross, retain the ball in the case of people like SWP, Lennon then this is what I call players with limitations. At Stoke quite often you will hear the anti Diao, Cresswell, etc people screaming abuse saying get them off Pulis. Then when someone like Whelan is brought in they will cry that he isnt gettin stuck in enough. I think this thread contains a lot of those types of people. And the comparisons are dumb I dont think anyone seiously believes Beckham is up there with the likes of Moore, Charlton, Hurst etc etc.
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