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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2009 11:34:33 GMT
personally i don't see the point of Lawrence or buying Etherington if he isn;t going to use both of them as providers for Beattie/Kitson/Sidibe/Fuller (Jeez how many forwards do we have!!!) and they're also not going to work unless we get some pace into our full backs..where's the overlapping at the moment?? This is the problem though, as you rightly say we all have our opinions of how to change the team but what we also have to temper that with is the reality that we just can't always get the type of players we want. To be fair (and i'm not always his biggest fan) TP has tried to get Ledley, Bullard, Pennant (possibly Fred??) all creative players but if they don't want to come then we have to make do with what we've got and yes he may be to blame for team selection last night but you can't blame him for the woeful, can't be bothered to run when i could still be sunning myself in Dubai approach that the players seemed to have for the first 45 minutes last night
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Post by luke45 on Jan 28, 2009 11:39:05 GMT
Luke45, Count yourself thankful that you're also #1 in the 'Didn't go to the match myself and witness that mauling but still willing to criticise anybody who did go and expresses their disappoint at truly awful we were' society. Blind faith gets us nowhere. We did that when Alan Ball was the manager. We had people just like you talking about being positive and getting behind the lads and then we got relegated and finished the following season in our lowest ever league position. I've had it with blind optimism and faith. Tell me what not being positive achieves then? How can people questioning Pulis's tactics and choice selections make any difference? we can't change that, and even though myself included see's issues in areas, as a fan i know all i can do is back the team and keep the faith, so thats why i'm being optimistic. I would say blind faith and belief amongst Players and Fans alike certainly didn't decrease our chances in getting promoted last season. And for the record i'm not criticising people, if you re-read my thread you'll see I asked a simple question. If i could've been there yesterday, i would, but its financially demanding, and some of us can't afford it every week, especially when travelling from cumbria.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2009 11:45:38 GMT
Luke45, Count yourself thankful that you're also #1 in the 'Didn't go to the match myself and witness that mauling but still willing to criticise anybody who did go and expresses their disappoint at truly awful we were' society. Blind faith gets us nowhere. We did that when Alan Ball was the manager. We had people just like you talking about being positive and getting behind the lads and then we got relegated and finished the following season in our lowest ever league position. I've had it with blind optimism and faith. Tell me what not being positive achieves then? How can people questioning Pulis's tactics and choice selections make any difference? we can't change that, and even though myself included see's issues in areas, as a fan i know all i can do is back the team and keep the faith, so thats why i'm being optimistic. I would say blind faith and belief amongst Players and Fans alike certainly didn't decrease our chances in getting promoted last season. And for the record i'm not criticising people, if you re-read my thread you'll see I asked a simple question. If i could've been there yesterday, i would, but its financially demanding, and some of us can't afford it every week, especially when travelling from cumbria. To be fair Smudge he's right. I appreciate you may have had it with blind faith and optimism but that's because we've had nothing but that to cling onto for 25-30 years. I believe that as a Stoke fan blind faith resulting in the realisation that we're actually not as good as we wished we were and will probably never win anything again (unitl Waddington comes back at the End of Days!) is a pre-requisite (much like being an England fan. We love it with all our heart but ultimately we will always feel deflated, numb and still come back for more of the same next season. Let Luke earn his spurs!! (BTW Luke i sincerely do not mean that to be patronising towards you )
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Post by johnnysoul60 on Jan 28, 2009 11:49:02 GMT
Why have we failed so badly in certain games though, yes spurs do have much better players than us but they had not won for 6 games and only scored 8 league goals at home all season.
Similarly at Blackburn we were awful, I'm not a moaner just a realist , our away record speaks for itself and whilst a lot of it is down to a gulf in quality , a lot is also down to tactics and team selections . The results speak for themselves.
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Post by Harpoon Louie on Jan 28, 2009 11:49:25 GMT
Blind optimism and faith just doesnt work. Just look what happened to the good old US of A when they voted in that cretin Bush for a 2nd term (rednecks - good old George can kick ass!). He buggered it up. Different situation at a football club I know but same principle. Things have to be questioned if its going wrong, someone has to be accountable. A managers job is to be accountable if his dept / team arent doing their jobs, it works like that in football and the real world.
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Post by luke45 on Jan 28, 2009 11:52:18 GMT
Blind optimism and faith just doesnt work. Just look what happened to the good old US of A when they voted in that cretin Bush for a 2nd term (rednecks - good old George can kick ass!). He buggered it up. Different situation at a football club I know but same principle. Things have to be questioned if its going wrong, someone has to be accountable. A managers job is to be accountable if his dept / team arent doing their jobs, it works like that in football and the real world. Isn't it possible to question things, but still be optimistic? I respect your opinions, the thing that i don't get is if optimism doesn't work, what does?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2009 11:53:00 GMT
Harpoon Louie i don't mindf TP taking the blame for things that go wrong but in that vein he should also be the one that is praised by everyone on here when we play well and that simply doesn't happen!! You can't have it both ways...that's how it works in the real world!! Anyway i know blind faith "doesn't work" i'm simply saying that as a Stoke fan unfortunately that's what we always tend to be resigned to
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Post by Harpoon Louie on Jan 28, 2009 12:15:42 GMT
If Tony gets it right and wins a game of course he should have the praise, thats only fair.
If he wins convincingly (a la Arsenal) then he should wallow in the plaudits.
If he wins unconvincingly (ie West Brom) he should get praised because hes still done his job.
If he loses badly (most games away from home) then this should be questioned and I dont mean calling the man a twat or telling him to fook off. If this losing badly streak continues then he is doing something wrong, and if he refuses to change then he should be held accountable.
I think theres loads to be optimistic about here. We have a good squad, a bearpit of a ground with a big telly, and a chairman who is prepared to back his manager to the hilt with cash. Tony needs to change his mindset about away games, stop giving so much respect, drop certain players and go for it. He can become a Stoke City legend, but he isnt one at the moment and its up to him whether he wants to address his own shortcomings and take this club forward.
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Post by Smudge_SCFC on Jan 28, 2009 12:28:17 GMT
Luke45, Count yourself thankful that you're also #1 in the 'Didn't go to the match myself and witness that mauling but still willing to criticise anybody who did go and expresses their disappoint at truly awful we were' society. Blind faith gets us nowhere. We did that when Alan Ball was the manager. We had people just like you talking about being positive and getting behind the lads and then we got relegated and finished the following season in our lowest ever league position. I've had it with blind optimism and faith. Tell me what not being positive achieves then? Only if you first tell me what being blindly optimistic achieves, except to give the impression that everything is brilliant when in fact it's not? How can it be wrong to question and to ask questions when things are not going well?
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Post by luke45 on Jan 28, 2009 12:44:50 GMT
Tell me what not being positive achieves then? Only if you first tell me what being blindly optimistic achieves, except to give the impression that everything is brilliant when in fact it's not? How can it be wrong to question and to ask questions when things are not going well? I'm not saying its wrong to ask questions, what i'm saying is that it'll have no influence on things, which it wont. I have concerns aswell, the cresswell persistance, the lack of plan B, the alarming vulnerability when going behind away from home, the lack of pace, and the piss-poor distribution from our full-backs, but as a fan i know i can't change that, all i can do is back the team, keep the faith and be optimistic. It hurts me just as much as anyone else when we lose, and when we concede i shout and moan just like everyone else, we do it because we care, i understand that, but then i think you know what we are a small fish in a big pond, with a mountainous task ahead, and all we can do is keep the faith. I think optimism can achieve alot, as ive previously said i think optimism and belief played a huge part in our promotion. I'm not having ago at people here, this isn't a dig by any means, but i just think there is people on here ( not including yourself ) that are the opposite blind negative, and whilst we lost games alot of the time through our own mistakes, we are also up against better football teams, and sometimes we do suffer from a gulf in class, chelsea at the brit, man utd at old trafford being two examples.
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Post by eriksson74 on Jan 28, 2009 12:45:06 GMT
it's amazing how most of the whingers on here are quick to criticise a lot of the players and TP but never seem to have a solution themselves!!! For those of you who think we are awful,woeful,lacking etc. in certain areas then answer these questions: 1) who would you replace and why? 2) who would you replace them with....and most importantly!! 3) what is the realistic likelihood that we could get that player given the fact that we are a newly pronoted side who have not been in the top flight for 23 years so in all honestly are more than likely (like all newly promoted sides) to go straight back down???? So many people on here seem to think that because we're in the Prem we can now obtain the likes of Kaka and Messi with a bit of Gerrard thrown in for good measure!!! we all agree that we would like to see top quality players at the Brit but strangely enough (for the reasons above) we're not going to get them. Take a reality pill some of you FFS!!!! You forgot to add the bit, that players probably take notice that we play a big diaganol punt from the fullbacks, don't retain the ball, keep conceding possession, defend on our 6 yard box, not won or looked like winning an away game, haven't won in 12 games and that ne wplayers tend to find themselves surplus to requirments behind headless bloody chickens!
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Post by swampySCFC on Jan 28, 2009 12:49:27 GMT
Luke45, Count yourself thankful that you're also #1 in the 'Didn't go to the match myself and witness that mauling but still willing to criticise anybody who did go and expresses their disappoint at truly awful we were' society. Blind faith gets us nowhere. We did that when Alan Ball was the manager. We had people just like you talking about being positive and getting behind the lads and then we got relegated and finished the following season in our lowest ever league position. I've had it with blind optimism and faith. Thats a bit out of order Smudge. Firstly just because people werent there last night doesnt absolve them of an opinion. To compare us with the Alan Ball era is churlish because football has changed dramatically. Bigger money, better players, wider gulf in class. By and large we are talking about losing to teams who, on paper, should be putting us away every week. The reality is that Spurs pissed on us in the first half because they played extremely well (as they should do) but we are of course still very much in the mix with undoudtedly a difficult period behind us and some winnable games coming up. Im not surewhere we expected to be???? And you cant say that the Premier is weak and we should grasp the cance because there are 8 other clubs who can say the same. Its not as though Pulis is not trying his best is itand you yourself said he deserves this season. Hes made two good and positive signings this month and I hope we can add a good midfielder. Disappointing as it was I cant believe how naive some people are to the plain realities of the situation.
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Post by Smudge_SCFC on Jan 28, 2009 12:57:40 GMT
Swampy,
Blind faith is blind faith. Time does not change it. It's all relative to a time and place but blind faith is just that... blind.
I have given TP the season. I'm not calling for his head.
What I can't allow to pass without question is stupid team selections and dreadful tactics, which has seen us gain THREE points from TWELVE games.
How can anyone shrug their shoulders and accept this? We have seen what this division has to offer and we can beat teams. Why are people so prepared to surrender and keep bleating on about how good other teams are or how much money they've spent?
I'm as realistic as the next fan but I won't sit back and say nothing when I see things which are wrong. I'm genuinely surprised other supporters will accept it.
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Post by fromafar07 on Jan 28, 2009 12:58:38 GMT
i really think you are missing the point luke, and refer to the guy on here who said "im not moaning that we lost, but the manner that we lost" ! it felt like Bolton first game of the season after watching and listening to commentators on tv. reading the papers all who said "they gave them too much respect and held back too far from them" exactly what Pulis said after the Bolton game, way back when. but also when you hav an attack with Cresswell in it, their defence and midfield tend to relax and attack us more, because they know there is no threat on their goal. Amdy Faye is pathetic in midfield and Whelan has added nothing, besidses a decent free kick ! Spurs must have been very happy to see Kitson. Lawrence, Fuller etc on the bench and just took it to Stoke who seemed shocked tha tthey would do that !! Like just after Bolton, naiive, very naiive
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Post by luke45 on Jan 28, 2009 13:01:24 GMT
i really think you are missing the point luke, and refer to the guy on here who said "im not moaning that we lost, but the manner that we lost" ! it felt like Bolton first game of the season after watching and listening to commentators on tv. reading the papers all who said "they gave them too much respect and held back too far from them" exactly what Pulis said after the Bolton game, way back when. but also when you hav an attack with Cresswell in it, their defence and midfield tend to relax and attack us more, because they know there is no threat on their goal. Amdy Faye is pathetic in midfield and Whelan has added nothing, besidses a decent free kick ! Spurs must have been very happy to see Kitson. Lawrence, Fuller etc on the bench and just took it to Stoke who seemed shocked tha tthey would do that !! Like just after Bolton, naiive, very naiive I'm not denying there is areas of concerns, the point i'm making is i'm going to stay optimist because thats all we as fans can do, isn't that fair enough?
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Post by swampySCFC on Jan 28, 2009 13:28:36 GMT
Swampy, Blind faith is blind faith. Time does not change it. It's all relative to a time and place but blind faith is just that... blind. I have given TP the season. I'm not calling for his head. What I can't allow to pass without question is stupid team selections and dreadful tactics, which has seen us gain THREE points from TWELVE games. How can anyone shrug their shoulders and accept this? We have seen what this division has to offer and we can beat teams. Why are people so prepared to surrender and keep bleating on about how good other teams are or how much money they've spent? I'm as realistic as the next fan but I won't sit back and say nothing when I see things which are wrong. I'm genuinely surprised other supporters will accept it. What is blind faith though. Faith yes I agree but surely the opposite is certainty that an alternative is better. Football is different now. In Ballys era Stoke could compete financially with the clubs around us but that could not be further from the truth today. we are very much a small fish in a big pond and at times it shows. I remember some years back people were creating the same arguments about Pulis. We tried something different under Bosskamp and a succession of pastings at home were the result. It was always going to be tough this year and who can argue with a policy of caution and trying to defend what we have got. I also think its not all about tactics as there have been some pretty poor performances from individuals recently and surely Pulis cant be blamed for that. Then again in the last month we have competed with Chelsea Liverpool and Manure and, have been unlucky in all. Looking at the bottom of the league I see the start of a gap developing. Weve played more games than some and should they pick points up in those it will start to get more difficult. Rather than faith, the reality is that we have had a tough run. On paper the games start to come easier and we need a couple of wins quickly. All I expect from Pulis is that he cunjures a couple more signings in this window-one hopefully a decent midfielder (sorry but Bullard at £40k/w was financially out of our league) and that we win a couple of games quickly. I think we can do the latter with what we have. Given where we are I have faith that he can do it but it is not blind faith. His track record is one of confounding the odds so lets hope that continues
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jan 28, 2009 13:41:44 GMT
As Luke's taxi driver ;D I wish to take issue over Smudge's suggestion that Luke is criticising those who went to the game. There is nothing in Luke's posts to suggest he is criticising people who went to the game. Luke is concerning himself with an attitude of mind of some fans compared to others irrespective of whether the fans went to the game or not.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2009 13:47:12 GMT
Blind Faith requires Great Hope. And a great many Stokies can't put themselves through that mill again.
It will - for always now, I should think - be too much for a lot of us to put that much Faith in anything SCFC related, ever again.
It is easier - for a lot of those who have been there - to be glass half empty rather than glass half full. Because the withdrawl effects of loosing half a pint - should the worst happen - are much easier to cope with than loosing a full pint.
ah
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