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Post by cousindupree on Jan 12, 2009 12:27:52 GMT
So TP was going to play his favoured 2 holding/defensive midfield players again on saturday and I have to ask why?
I guess we all know he likes Diao so he will start him if fit and I guess Amdy Faye to his credit is playing well. But I still believe we lose something in being able to create anything from open play. Whelan if not the most attack minded midfield player I thought did pretty well and I am baffled that he was going to start with Diao who questionably wasn't fit.
If Salif is fit then Whelan will get dropped for the Chelsea game in favour of the 2 defensive midfielders. Maybe I can understand that for a trip to Stamford Bridge.
But I really hope its the last time we see Faye and Diao in tandem...Oh for some creativity in central midfield!!! We will need it when the likes of Bolton and Boro come to the Brit
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2009 12:29:56 GMT
It's worrying that he's said more than once that he considers Diao "the best midfielder at the club by a country mile".
I can see why he'd go with those two for Liverpool, but with Alonso out I too thought it would have been harsh and unnecessary to drop Whelan, and smacked of showing them too much respect.
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Post by th05 on Jan 12, 2009 12:31:42 GMT
I agree on only one should play in games we are looking to control. Don't really mind which one. However in games such as Chelsea away it is the correct decision yes. I can't see it happening though, Tone has made it clear how important Salif is and Faye has been in very good form of late. I expect them to be the first choice partnership when Diao is fit.
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Post by fca47 on Jan 12, 2009 12:35:03 GMT
Totally agree, was astounded when Pulis said Diao was our best midfielder, at least Whelan does get over the halfway line. Wouldn't be too bad if we had two wide men who could get past their men, we now seem to have one. But up to now it means we can hardly get out of our own half, in away games it is even less effective, as the whole team has a defensive mentality.
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Post by Stokie in Geordieland on Jan 12, 2009 12:37:44 GMT
I agree with most of what your saying, the whole Amdy & Diao playing together is just wrong for me! We definitely need someone who can do something with the ball in midfield. The only bit i disagree with slightly is that I thought Whelan was our worst player on the day. I'm usually a fan of Whelan's and I think he should have played more this season to date, but he was poor against Liverpool in my eyes. I'm starting to think we should give Tongue a try in central midfield alongside Amdy (who was excellent against Liverpool).
Whelan was poor defensively and got caught in posession on a number of occassions. He couldn't seem to turn on the ball quickly, he took an extra 3 touches on the ball and by that time he's lost it. As I said I'm usually a fan of Whelan, but on the face of the Hartlepool game, and the Liverpool one I think Amdy Faye and Tongue would be worth a try, with Lawrence/Delap on the right & Etherington on the left.
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Post by cousindupree on Jan 12, 2009 12:40:15 GMT
I am wondering if we will ever see a line up of
Lawrence....Whelan.....Faye/Diao.....Ethers
With the current squad it has to be the most offensive line up for home games....and we need some wins which means creating and scoring goals.
Come on TP give it a go!
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Post by pushon on Jan 12, 2009 12:40:53 GMT
I too thought that Whelan had a better than average game,he does try to get the ball down and play it.
His sliced first-half hoof excepted, I think his display merits staying in the team.
Pessimist that I am though, I do have reservations about his pace and mobility.
Chelsea do move the ball swiftly through the mid-field.
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Post by exiledstokie on Jan 12, 2009 12:41:00 GMT
Agree that we should not have been considering Diao and Faye as the midfield pairing at home vs Liverpool, i fear we would have sat too deep and encouraged Liverpool to attack us constantly.
However, to be fair to Pulis, he did say that Diao was the best midfielder at the club by a country mile, at "what he does" which im guessing is break the play up, sit deep, get the ball and give it to somebody who can progress the play. When he's fit i'd tend to agree with TP here, but we havent seen a fully fit Salif since the 1st loan spell, he looked quality then but hasn't got back to that form as of yet.
Vs Chelsea, if Diao is fully fit and theres no concern over his fitness then id be inclined to play Diao and Faye, because of the amount of possession Chelsea will have through Ballack, Deco, Lampard etc in the area that Diao and Faye opperate, but against other teams, certainly at home, we need either Salif or Amdy (I'm going for Amdy after the Liverpool game!) then we need eith Whelan or another creative center midfielder (like Ledley) who can pick a pass and create some chances
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Post by french toast on Jan 12, 2009 12:42:29 GMT
how can anyone say he got lucky, how do you know that diao wouldnt have scored ;D ok wouldny have set some one up for the winner  |
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Post by cousindupree on Jan 12, 2009 12:46:16 GMT
I too would be happy to give Tonge a try in central midfield...I think he is capable of hitting some creative passes...But Ledley in central midfield would give us a vert decent midfield with options...fingers crossed
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Post by cousindupree on Jan 12, 2009 12:49:25 GMT
Yep Salif could have hit a screamer from his own half. Or maybe an Alonso chip..didnt take that into account!
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Post by stan on Jan 12, 2009 12:49:28 GMT
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but I thought Whelan was lucky not to have conceded a penalty for his challenge on Kuyt and Saturday and very lucky that he wasn't penalised for a reckless tackle in the area at West Ham.
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Post by Dave the Rave on Jan 12, 2009 12:50:08 GMT
Lucky?
Whelan was the worst midfielder on the pitch on Satdee.
We may have won with Diao on.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 12, 2009 13:12:46 GMT
So TP was going to play his favoured 2 holding/defensive midfield players again on saturday and I have to ask why? I guess we all know he likes Diao so he will start him if fit and I guess Amdy Faye to his credit is playing well. But I still believe we lose something in being able to create anything from open play. Whelan if not the most attack minded midfield player I thought did pretty well and I am baffled that he was going to start with Diao who questionably wasn't fit. If Salif is fit then Whelan will get dropped for the Chelsea game in favour of the 2 defensive midfielders. Maybe I can understand that for a trip to Stamford Bridge. But I really hope its the last time we see Faye and Diao in tandem...Oh for some creativity in central midfield!!! We will need it when the likes of Bolton and Boro come to the Brit I posted something similar yesterday cousindupree: I'm rather worried that Pulis STILL seems to think that Diao and Faye are our best centre midfield partnership. It's actually my only (but quite worryingly, and indeed quite serious) criticism of Pulis on Saturday. There is no doubt he intended to start with Salif AND Amdy against Liverpool. I don't think it's any coincidence that Amdy's game has improved DRAMATICALLY since he has had Whelan along side of him. I'm not suggesting that it's Whelan himself, that has made the difference, but rather, that he has improved so much due to Diao NOT being there, or actually more to the point, that it is not a defensive midfielder per se that is partnering him. I think that both Salif and Amdy look better when they don't have their mirror image as a partner in midfield. It is extremely worrying that based on the starting eleven that Pulis intended to start with against the Scousers, that our manager doesn't seem to have made the same observation. Although he is currently the best we have available, I actually have real reservations about Whelan being good enough to hold down the position of creative central midfield at Stoke. I too think that he wasn't as good as had been recently in the match on Saturday. I really do think it has to be a case of Salif OR Amdy partnering AN Other in the centre of the pitch. Until that new player can be signed then Whelan simply has to play. I note that nobody has mentioned Seyi! |
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Post by johnnysoul60 on Jan 12, 2009 13:14:48 GMT
Diao is when fit a very good defensive midfielder and easily the best in that role at the club, Pulis likes two central midfielders who sit so going forward isnt really part of the plan, hopefully with etherington in and lawrence now fit, they can get forward and create.
Not sure what the love affiar is with whelan, he does some good things but can make mistakes and put us under pressure, he did this on Saturday. We were lucky not to get punished. I would place him as a top end Championship player / Premiership Squad player
He is better going forward than Diao but as I said we dont play that way really.
Amdy Faye has impressed me recently and is probably fit enough to get forward more if allowed to do so
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Post by cousindupree on Jan 12, 2009 13:21:19 GMT
Its TP as a cautious manager playing a percentage game with defensive midfield players. In fairness to TP he hasn't got a quality creative central midfield player on the books....but thats been the case for some time now so maybe he doesn't think our style of play needs one.
I think saturday showed that you dont have to spend the whole 90 minutes allowing the opposition to come at you to achieve a decent result against quality opposition
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 12, 2009 13:22:17 GMT
Amdy Faye has impressed me recently ... Johnny agreed, Amdy Fay has improved massively recently. Wouldn't you agree that this improvement has happened since he has been playing WITHOUT Salif along side him. I'm not criticising Salif or Amdy individually, just suggesting that each one of them actually plays better when the other isn't on the pitch. |
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Post by salopstick on Jan 12, 2009 13:22:25 GMT
I am wondering if we will ever see a line up of Lawrence....Whelan.....Faye/Diao.....Ethers With the current squad it has to be the most offensive line up for home games....and we need some wins which means creating and scoring goals. Come on TP give it a go! if and a big if both lawrence and ethers played i dont think it would matter too much about playing both amdy and diao in fact it would put a bit of balance cos tp will never send out an all attacking team |
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Post by dadofsam on Jan 12, 2009 13:26:07 GMT
I think Diao progressed even further in Pulis' estimation on Saturday without even playing, I'm fairly sure he became best in the Premiership at what he does in the post match interview.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 12, 2009 13:28:36 GMT
I am wondering if we will ever see a line up of Lawrence....Whelan.....Faye/Diao.....Ethers With the current squad it has to be the most offensive line up for home games....and we need some wins which means creating and scoring goals. Come on TP give it a go! if and a big if both lawrence and ethers played i dont think it would matter too much about playing both amdy and diao in fact it would put a bit of balance cos tp will never send out an all attacking team That's a fair point salopstick. They would now both have an outlet to either flank which they haven't had as a pairing before. However I just can't help feeling that they both tend to adopt very similar positions on the pitch, and whilst not tripping over each other, they tend to have better individual performances when they have a different type of midfield player as their partner. |
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Post by growler on Jan 12, 2009 13:33:30 GMT
Pulis is actually right and wrong. Salif is the best midfield player at the club but should be paired with Whelan not Faye. Amdy Faye played well on Saturday but he doesn't offer as mcuh in defebce as Diao and offers very little going forward.
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Post by Stephen Frys' Ring on Jan 12, 2009 14:01:58 GMT
Just to inform you all,but the dutch teams of old in beautiful football time,used to play with two holding players and two wingers. Thus sort of playing a 4-2-4 or 4-2-2-2,maybe our Tone is going dutch. I say of old quite a few do it now in dutch league. Tis with limited teams a good option,especially against chelski at wkend,at home tho i agree we should be more imaginative and take a few chances ! Oh well Tone knows his grapes is grapes ! |
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Post by Stokie in Geordieland on Jan 12, 2009 14:05:22 GMT
Pulis is actually right and wrong. Salif is the best midfield player at the club but should be paired with Whelan not Faye. Amdy Faye played well on Saturday but he doesn't offer as mcuh in defebce as Diao and offers very little going forward. I think its the other way around, Amdy is better than Diao defensilvely but his passing isn't as good. When Diao is fit and on top of his game he offers more once he has the ball. His tackling is good but i think Amdy shades him in that department. What Diao CAN do better than Amdy is getting hold of the ball and passing to someone in space, or even having the odd long range pop at goal himself if nothing else is on. Amdy seems to struggle when he gets into those positions, its almost like he knows he can't cross a ball or shoot, so he looks for the other option. At present I think Amdy presents us with the best option as a defensive midfielder though, simply because Diao is not fit and not firing on all cylinders. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 12, 2009 15:20:06 GMT
You just know though that when Salif is fit he'll play Amdy and Salif together. Which is a load of bollocks truth be told.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 12, 2009 15:25:05 GMT
You just know though that when Salif is fit he'll play Amdy and Salif together. Which is a load of bollocks truth be told. That was exactly what Pulis intended on doing against Liverpool Bayern.  I'm not totally sure that our midfield would have been as successful against the Scousers as it was if Salif hadn't pulled up before hand. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 12, 2009 15:34:03 GMT
You just know though that when Salif is fit he'll play Amdy and Salif together. Which is a load of bollocks truth be told. That was exactly what Pulis intended on doing against Liverpool Bayern. I'm not totally sure that our midfield would have been as successful against the Scousers as it was if Salif hadn't pulled up before hand. We can't say for sure. But Whelan did start the pressuring of the Liverpool players. For 10 minutes we were sitting deep and were doing nothing. And then from nowhere Whelan ran out at 200 mph shut Lucas down who passed to Carragher and then Etherington though f**k it too broke ranks, closed him down and we won the throw. The crowd went wild because before that we were sitting deep and from then we never looked back. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 12, 2009 15:39:05 GMT
That was exactly what Pulis intended on doing against Liverpool Bayern. I'm not totally sure that our midfield would have been as successful against the Scousers as it was if Salif hadn't pulled up before hand. [/quote We can't say for sure. But Whelan did start the pressuring of the Liverpool players. For 10 minutes we were sitting deep and were doing nothing. And then from nowhere Whelan ran out at 200 mph shut Lucas down who passed to Carragher and then Etherington though f**k it too broke ranks, closed him down and we won the throw. The crowd went wild because before that we were sitting deep and from then we never looked back. I think it's virtualy certain that if Diao is fit, then Pulis will start with Amdy and Salif together against Chelsea. Which will be an uneccessary mistake in my book. |
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Post by georgeberrysafro on Jan 12, 2009 15:50:24 GMT
I think people are reading a little too much into this, Pulis has stated a few times before that Diao is a confidence player and if this is what it takes to keep him confident and giving the best for the team then TP will do it. Either way you can't really say how the game would have gone as Diao didn't start and Whelan did, I actually thought Whelan put in the weakest display out of the midfield 4 (lost it a few times in dangerous places) but he does give us that attacking option and his freekick was almost Del Perio quality  . Still it's nice to have options and hopefully he'll continue to step his game up to keep his place, the only thing Whelan is missing is to add a few goals to the side, either through him or through assists. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 12, 2009 15:53:30 GMT
I think people are reading a little too much into this, Pulis has stated a few times before that Diao is a confidence player and if this is what it takes to keep him confident and giving the best for the team then TP will do it. Either way you can't really say how the game would have gone as Diao didn't start and Whelan did, I actually thought Whelan put in the weakest display out of the midfield 4 (lost it a few times in dangerous places) but he does give us that attacking option and his freekick was almost Del Perio quality . Still it's nice to have options and hopefully he'll continue to step his game up to keep his place, the only thing Whelan is missing is to add a few goals to the side, either through him or through assists. But we've shown in my opinion that Whelan and Faye together is the best way. Faye looks twice the player when playing alongside Whelan. We can't play Diao and Faye together they are just too similar. |
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Post by georgeberrysafro on Jan 12, 2009 15:59:10 GMT
I agree Bayern, Faye does improve with Whelan by his side, just I'm still not 100% convinced yet Whelan is enough in the middle to keep us up, he has put in some solid performance but I just think he lacks a bit of pace and gets caught now and again, although I do like how he picks his pass and plays the ball on the floor to the front two.
Either way things are changing, we now have Matty on the left and Lawrence for the right, and when both are 100% fit it should help the central pair a little more, I'd still like someone new to come in with pace and creativity but considering we've had no links it looks like Diao/Whelan/Faye/Delap until the end of the season.
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