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Post by OldStokie on Oct 27, 2008 22:11:18 GMT
Wrong again, Victor, if it means SCFC are relegated. Stick to the Boskamp routine. At least that bit is funny.
And now I must be off. I have some editing to do.
OS.
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Post by stokiegav on Oct 28, 2008 2:50:59 GMT
This is going to sound like sitting on the fence, but you're all right! The Citeh game got away from us. They scored early - which we didn't want, and right after half time. Then we're stretched, and easy pickings for probably the fastest breaking attack in the league. I thought Sturridge was excellent. We were well beaten yesterday, but we missed our chances and it turned into the perfect game for them and the worst kind of game for us. But look at the league. We shouldn't fear anyone outside the top 6. (The real top 6, because Hull will be in the bottom 6 in May.) The big 4 + Villa and City (at home) are way better than all the rest. Sunderland could finish 7th this season. We have had a tough start, but I think Bolton and Boro were worse defeats than yesterday. Tone's sides tend to evolve. It's a squad game, and I think Kitson, Sidibe, Whelan, Soares, Cort and Shawcross will all have a massive part to play. I think Kitson's a fighter, and his first goal will be a big monkey off his back. Its a massive game on Wednesday, and we really need at least a point. Nothing's changed, and don't be fooled by the league or the pattern of the fixtures. Nobody's ever been relegated in October, and we're still battling against Hull, Brazil, Wigan, Bolton, Fulham with probably Newcastle, Blackburn, and maybe even Boro, West Ham and now Portsmouth getting dragged into the dogfight. Sounds like the old mantra, but keep the faith and enjoy it. We are going to lose more than we win this season, so we've got to keep taking the positives. Get behind the lads on Wednesday, and let's see what happens as this great season unfolds. whats with this city bein a massive club? theyve only bought robhino since the takeover - they WILL be a massive club but they aint yet - if one player made a side anyone could be a manager!!!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2008 6:16:26 GMT
Even before Robinho and the takeover they had far more talent and better resources than us.
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Post by mcf on Oct 28, 2008 7:03:31 GMT
I would stake money on a Dender Bender reunion the day that Pulis gets the bullet too Shakester.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Oct 28, 2008 7:14:08 GMT
Mick (OS), you are confusing me. On the one hand you say you are delighted TP proved you wrong and got us promoted on the other hand you have said MANY TIMES on this board that the day TP leaves will be a great day for this club. If that is so then surely you would welcome relegation as it would bring the day of TP's leaving closer......
Do you or do you not think it will be a good day for this club the day Pulis leaves?
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Post by greyman on Oct 28, 2008 8:49:31 GMT
It won't be a good day because it will almost certainly mean that the club is doing badly. What amazzes me about this 'debate' is that it's still going on. I don't like Pulis, but he has done something amazing in getting us up.
I can still think of only one or two 'fans' who've ever wanted us to lose to prove their point about a manager.
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Post by rorymscfc on Oct 28, 2008 9:21:20 GMT
I was gutted that we lost to Citeh - I felt we might have been able to get something from the game. I thought we played in parts but we caught them on a good day and with the players they have at their disposal that was always going to be a problem. The timings of their goals didn't help either!
In this league though, it's not about getting knocked down, it's about how you get back up again and that will be seen tomorrow night.
I know we were beaten 3-0 but it wasn't at home, and it wasn't against Hull. If I was a WBA fan I'd be seriously pissed off!
RoryM
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Post by OldStokie on Oct 28, 2008 9:30:05 GMT
That's the 'surreal' bit, John. In my original post, I described how we celebrated the win over Villa. How can I dislike anyone who gave us that? Well, dislike as in hate as in the middle bit of 'PHW'. No one really hates him. We may not like him, but hate is something one saves for real baddies. Pulis is not one of those, he's just a frustrating guy who can produce games like the Villa one and also be so bloody pig-headed that he makes silly errors the next game. He's not so bad in real terms. So, will I be pleased when he walks off with his P45. Probably. Providing he walks away for the right reasons. But that's not a personal thing. It will be because I think he's a limited manager. It will be because he adopts a no-lose attitude rather than a win-win attitude and because he doesn't seem to know what he's doing sometimes. It will be because now we are a Prem side, we can do better. It will be because this window of opportunity that Pulis has gained for us is so important to keep that he is expendable. For the greater good of the club. I can't see us surviving in this league because of Pulis. Simply put, I don't think he's good enough. Well, up to yet, he's not been good enough. The two buys I mentioned earlier seem to have been failures. Very expensive ones. He's bought so many centre halves that he's confused himself. He hasn't got a clue which is his best central defensive pairing. After nine games, it's still a merry-go-round at the back with square pegs in round holes on either side. Up front, he's finally realised that Kitson can't play his 4-4-1-1 system. Kitson is pissed off big style. Who can blame him. Some of our central defenders are getting a tad unsettled too. They don't know whether they're on their arse or their elbows. So, in answer to your question, if we could get a better manager in, yes, I do think it would be a good day for the club. As for your last comment... Just fuck off! That's a smarmy remark and you know it. I gotta go now. I have fings to do. Oi, Eli, get those flights and hotel room booked. 9th May. Don't do the penultimate game. You know how much trouble it gets us in with Victor. M.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 28, 2008 9:44:51 GMT
That's pretty damning stuff about our best manager in over twenty (and arguably thirty) years, OS?
You must at least accept that some people find yours and the likes of MarkE and the bard of norfolk's stance perplexing?
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Post by ted1965 on Oct 28, 2008 9:45:52 GMT
The real problem is we lack someone in the middle of the park who can actually dictate a game and have too many players who can and do exactly the same thing which is break up play and compete hard but that is not going to be effective if we need to chase a game as happened on Sunday,. Though to be fair for once we actually had chances and made the opposition keeper earn his corn, something that happens too rarely for my liking, that has been a huge gripe for many that we simply don’t make the opposition keeper work hard enough.
I do think Hull tearing up trees has put extra pressure on us and made many ask why can’t we do the same, a reasonable question but I do think Tone’s lack of experience at this level and his naturally cautious nature was never going to see us in that kind of position. If you look at their games so far they have ridden their luck, many games could have gone against them but they take a no fear approach into games, yes they also realize they can get a hiding as they did against Wigan but they have learned fast that if you have players who can cause the opposition to think then you have a chance to win games you really should lose on balance of play. They keep three players up most of the time, yes they get the rest behind the ball but they have outlets when they win it back and more they give other teams things to think about.
I think we’ve done better than expected at this stage but now it’s the time when we’ll find out where we really stand, if we don’t collect points in the next 5 or 6 weeks from our upcoming home games then whether we like it or not, we are in big trouble.
I like you OS gave homage to Tony for his achievements something I freely admit I never thought him capable of and it gave me great pleasure to be proved wrong because ultimately we all wanted the same thing this club once more back in the big time. As for survival, I have always taken the view that it’s possible if we approach games in the correct way, a reasonable amount of respect for the new challenges but no fear of the challenge ahead. I think looking at our fixtures so far we’ve done pretty well and given a little good fortune over the next few months we could be very much in the hunt. Though I agree totally with you OS if we are to go down and I hope we don’t. I would rather go down taking games to opponents than sitting back and hoping we wont lose.
It’s time for some harsh realities and whether we like it or not we’re looking one dimensional and that has to be laid at the managers door, it seems some believe it’s only acceptable to talk about him when things are going well. It seems they believe he’s only responsible for good things that happen, if things aren’t going so well then he somehow has no blame attached to him whatsoever. I am sorry the real world doesn’t work like that, yes he did magnificently to get this club back into the top flight after so long in the wilderness but that doesn’t mean he has immunity from blame forever because of it. If he makes mistakes and people wish to debate them or rightly criticise him for it, you’ll get the cliché’s thick and fast, it’s the Premiership for Gods sake and what do you expect us to do, nobody has thrashed us or really turned us over and there for that’s good enough or Tone knows what he’s doing and stop complaining and support the team.
That is not facing the issues but merely burying your head in the sand and using blind faith as a support tool. I will always support the team have done through thin and thinner for 38 years and nothing that happens would ever change my thought process, this is my team and I would support them come what may. That doesn’t mean you have to turn your head away and say blind faith support is justified when mistakes are made by those at the club. That’s not taking away anything from Tony but in life praise comes when deserved but criticism comes when you fall short. I just want to see us taking games to the opposition better to lose giving them a few nightmares than just allowing them to simply play with little fear of defeat. It’s all very well looking at the score and saying, we were always in that game and didn’t get overrun but if you haven’t made the opposition keeper or defenders work what good was it, it’s like saying a boxer was always in the fight even though he didn’t actually land a telling punch all night but at least he wasn’t knocked out. If you take the long throw in out of the equation we look toothless, too many players who do the same thing and not enough who can turn a game, apart from Fuller. We have paid a record fee for a striker and hardly used him as such this season, what is the point of paying 5 million for a goal scorer and then not allowing him to actually get into positions to score, it’s like paying a hooker and looking at her for a while and walking out of the room without actually getting what you paid for.
I can accept a loss if we’ve given everything and been beaten simply because the other side are a better team like Sunday, it isn’t easy but at least you can accept it. I can’t accept watching a side sent out simply to stifle the other side and with little or no ambition to actually take a game by the scruff of the neck and make a team sweat. I want to my side to go out on it’s shield if that’s how it is to be, not tamely accept that we’re not good enough, to take a chance and make a real game of it.
The manager has had a transformation in his supporter ratings over the last few years and he’s deserved all the praise that his and the players achievements have earned him. I totally admitted to being wrong about him not being good enough to gain promotion and was delighted with his proving me wrong. Though it’s a huge leap to then say he can’t be criticised from then on because of it. Football is a cut throat business and at this level you’re judged on the here and now and last year will fast become a distant memory if people become disheartened by not seeing a side who are going out to win games. That huge amount of credit he has built up like many banks of late will soon dwindle and the creditors will be banging on the door asking for some kind of payment.
The manager has started to sound very negative at times, he uses the same phrases as back in his first reign, yes Tone we all know we’re against sides who on paper have superior players and sides who have players on their bench that we could only dream about having playing for us at the moment but we knew that when we arrived but stating it doesn’t change it and only fosters a negative approach from players and ultimately supporters will fall into the same mindset. If there wasn’t one supporter who didn’t know that before we played the first game at this level then I will eat the hat I don’t own, that’s where you want a manager to take a positive stance both on and off the field. The obvious we know, what we want to see and hear is how the manager is going to even the balance and Tone it’s how we played against Villa and for periods Tottenham Everton and Middlesboro that succeed not simply forming a wall and saying we didn’t get a hiding when everyone can see we didn’t actually try and win the game either. I have no problem with having a healthy respect for sides but when it crosses over into abject fear of what they can do to you if you open the game up then it’s self defeating, it’s not our managers job to make the opposition feel good about themselves, it’s his job to find and then exploit their weaknesses. I am not suggesting we throw men forward recklessly but with method and hold on to the ball more, in this league possession is hard to come by and giving it up easily without a fight is criminal.
I am not having a go at Tone before I am slated for being negative and not supporting the team I am simply saying we need more positively and from now on a no fear approach to games, yes we’ll get a few hammerings that’s to be expected and there’s nothing wrong with being a little cautious but we have to make opponents think more. It might not keep us up but if we sit back and just allow teams to have the ball that will certainly end in relegation. The manager needs to find the balance between reasonable caution and gung ho suicide.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2008 9:52:07 GMT
Pulis has got us where we are now. Lest we not forget recent years gone by, the Little, Kamara and Bates periods (sends a shudder down the spine just thinking about it). Pulis has achieved great things for our club and has given us a team we can be proud of again.
Do we get rid and try and find the next Wenger/Fergie type manager who is on the up? Look at other clubs who have had greater resources than us over recent years and look where they are. Charlton is a great example and Pardew a fine illustration of what can happen when you have a useless tw*t in charge. Don’t underestimate the job Tone did last season in getting us back to the top flight after a 23 year wait.
He’s put together a team that has fought and been competitive in every game we have played this year, we haven’t been embarrassed or ashamed by anyone (AKA Derby). We can walk away from almost every game with our heads held high. Is that enough? No, of course it isn’t. We need to start adding points to the tally (and soon) and that starts tomorrow.
The fact that we are even discussing whether or not Tone is the right man for the job is beyond me. He’s taken us to the prem and created a team that each and every one of us can be proud of.
I’m not saying I agree with every decision he makes or every tactical choice he takes but that doesn’t mean I am not 100% behind him.
For the people who think he isn’t the right man for the job who do they think would come in and do a better one?
Unbelievable some of the stuff you read on this board.
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Post by greyman on Oct 28, 2008 9:52:24 GMT
sheikh
It must be perplexing for Lige, because he's so much cleverer than the rest of us.
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Post by Godo on Oct 28, 2008 10:05:00 GMT
I'm not enterring into Pulis bashing mode. He did well to get us promoted and he shouldn't be sacked when we get relegated BUT I'm really not enjoying it most of the time. We look more lumbering and one dimensional than even I thought we would be. Everybody knew it was going to be a struggle but what has disappointed me has been the way that we haven't really set about teams. We've played too deep, not pressed them and our pitiful lack of pace has been there for all to see.
The way to stay up in my view would have been for us to maximise games against bottom 8 contenders and play them like cup finals, to play like a pack of wild dogs and to set about the big time charlies on a cold tuesday/wednesday night when they might not fancy it. But we don't play like that - we don't expend enough energy in the middle and we know that whatever happens or whoever we are playing against we will ALWAYS play in exactly the same way. Us and West Brom will be adrift at the bottom by Christmas because they're too soft and we're too negative.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Oct 28, 2008 10:40:20 GMT
Godo - I'm interested in your comments about how we play against the bottom 8 contenders. Against Bolton we looked better than them until their opening (freakish) goal and then we fell apart for a while but, to be fair, there was no AB Faye, Lawrence or Fuller on the pitch when we capitulated. Against Boro we took the game to them and were on top until AM Faye was sent off and even then came within minutes of getting a draw. Spurs we beat fairly comprehensively and should have scored more. Everton we certainly got at them second half and had a decent goal by Fuller chalked off for no good reason and Everton are in the bottom half because of their home form and not their away form.
I know this sounds like a lot of ifs buts and maybes - but my point is that our performances against the bottom half teams have been encouraging and a win tomorrow would probably see us clear of the relegation zone. Let's not be too quick to write the season off. There are some very winnable matches to come in the next few weeks.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 28, 2008 11:07:46 GMT
The most worrying thing is that whilst tomorrows game is not quite 'must win' we are only in November and it's almost certainly already 'must not lose'.
This season was always going to be that way wasn't it?
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Oct 28, 2008 11:31:25 GMT
Is it just me or is this thread getting better and better? A cracking read.. Some of the sarcasm and vitriol is tangible.. OldStokie and MoMo (and Ted) you're wasted on here..
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Post by davejohnno1 on Oct 28, 2008 11:50:53 GMT
I am no Pulis lover as most on here will testify, but some expectations are a tad ambitious in my opinion.
Don't get me wrong, I would love it if we could stay up and a win against Sunderland tomorrow will put us PAR for the course so far this season.
That said though, I don't think anyone should be fooled. IF we manage to survive this season, it will be a far bigger achievement than being promoted in the first place and Pulis will rightly have earned, once again, any praise that is lavished upon him.
I think we can do it based on what I have witnessed to date!
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Post by thepremierbanksy on Oct 28, 2008 11:57:58 GMT
I could have sworn I'd read OS saying something closely along the lines of "there's noone i'd rather have for a gritty relegation battle" in close season, but it may have been a dream. Someone probably has it tattooed if he did,
A lot of people are crticising TP's tactics at the moment. I don't really have a problem with them - it is after all Pulisball, and I expected nothing different. He seems to be learning quite well to my mind; he dropped the Abdoul in midfield experiment after one game, he's dropped Kitson when it is clear what our best strike partnership is, he gave Soares a chance and then kept him in when he took it. We went to city to take the game to them, when it was clear that they are one of the sides with the best movement in the whole of the prem and i really expected cautious TP to show up and to park the bus - but he saw they were in inconsistent form and eyed up the points.
Pulisball works pretty well in the prem i think, but if there were to be a criticism of pulis it would've been in his signings, or lack of in certain areas (left back, left wing, up front). Saying that i am not overly critical of the kitson signing - as i said on Trouserdog's thread I didn't hear anyone predicting his failure to fit our system in july, although granted the transfer window sent a fair few people crazy so lack of objectivity is to be expected. We do require very specific players to play pulisball with at this level.
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Post by Beardy200 on Oct 28, 2008 12:02:14 GMT
So Ted .... how was that hooker you didn't walk away from after taking a look? Nice post as usual Ted ... it's funny though how you've not got any responses like ... "Fuck off and support Utd then if you don't like it". I wonder why that is lol
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Post by ted1965 on Oct 28, 2008 12:14:07 GMT
;D ;D she was expensive but thankfully not expansive mate.
As for why nobody has told me to do one, well I am sure they will now you have remided them ;D ;D ;D
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Post by MrMagic on Oct 28, 2008 12:34:27 GMT
Pulisball works pretty well in the prem i think, Hit and hope hasn't worked in the top flight for at least 10 years, and probably a lot longer! We are playing some decent stuff though, so I'm not sure that the "Pulis ball" tag for me is a fair one. What does rag me off is how we go out and sit off teams waiting for them to beat us. We are defending in numbers but it is not working. Sadly it seems that Tone is not able to either see or rectify that at this stage. We cannot get rid though because if we did, and then got relegated we'd have to spend the rest of our lives listening to how "Tone would have kept us up". He is clearly well out of his depth. The acid-test will be how quickly he is able to learn, and whether he would consider a different approach. I lurch from positive to downbeat. We are creating chances, but not taking them, so if we sign a goal-scorer we might be OK. On the downside, we have a goal scorer in Kitson, but Pulis appears to have completely shattered his confidence. ???
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 28, 2008 12:44:52 GMT
"He is clearly well out of his depth" ??? ??? ??? ???
Any more so than Mr Semthwick Mowbray? Any more so than Roy Keane who has spent a billion pounds and struggles to get out of the bottom 6. Anymore than Joe Kinnear and his public mental breakdown? It’s a sweeping statement that, Mr. M.
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Post by thepremierbanksy on Oct 28, 2008 13:31:10 GMT
When I say Pulisball I mean the actual football we play, not the simplified 80-yard-hoof representation that the media and the biggest detractors of pulis (bristol city fans) have of it - ie attempting quick, direct attacks that basically rely on the 2 to 4 players who normally participate in them at any one time to make something out of little.
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Post by vestanpance on Oct 28, 2008 13:54:58 GMT
I think the biggest problem on here is that many of you aren't enjoying yourselves enough, and that is frankly criminal.
Let's look at some facts. We are playing against teams with ambitions, aspirations and budgets massively higher than ours. The man who scored the goals on sunday cost the same as all of our players put together, and you would have had change to build Colchester united's new football ground. THAT is the reality we face, and unless you learn to embrace it and look forward to it, this is going to be a long and despressing six months. Get some perspective.
As for Pulis, well opinions will always be divided about him, so trying to come to a consensus is impossible. I will however say this; he is a manager who can only be judged on the end justifying the means. I have applauded him for bringing in Gerry Francis to try to bridge the tactical gap in his knowledge that comes form plying your trade at this level, however tactically we continue to play the same way every game and i find that frustrating, but that is the Pulis dichotomy for you. Whatever you think of him, be grateful that he gave us this chance. I know i am.
As for the man himself, well should Stoke City be relegated this season, as i expect us to be, I think that a parting of the ways would be the most positive thing for Stoke City, and Tony Pulis can go and work his magic and the newly-relegated Southampton. the reasons for this are simple and in honesty, many-folded; his transfer policy (Kitson, Olifinjana, Davies, Sonko, Tonge) is utterly questionable & has in honesty smacks of desperation to me. We have a squad constructed of Centre Backs & Central Midfielders, we have no width whatsoever despite admirable jobs being done by good hearted players and that fact that our system cannot afford £9M* of forward talent (Kitson & Fuller) to work effectively together, despite the fact they are both clearly good footballers.
In short, as far as TP is concerned, I appreciate his abilities, i really do. But i'm not immune to his faults, which are far smaller than some would have you believe, but in the rarified & highly magnified environs in which we currently operate are clear for all to see. He's spent £20-odd million pound this summer but tactically and technically, we not a shit-load better than we were last season. On that basis alone we might be better looking to bring in someone who looks at things a different way and might spend the money we'll get trying to adapt our style, rather than shoe-horn in a system that wasn't great (but worked) in the Championship into the toughest league in the world.
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Post by RAF on Oct 28, 2008 16:32:59 GMT
Priceless irony you cock!
H ;D
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Post by mcf on Oct 28, 2008 17:29:15 GMT
OS, you are off your fucking tits on Pulis Hating Wankstainery - it's more lethal than 10 pints of wife beater.
A win tomorrow and you'll be sucking his wand and craddling his plums again.
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Post by MrMagic on Oct 28, 2008 17:47:46 GMT
"He is clearly well out of his depth" ??? ??? ??? ??? Any more so than Mr Semthwick Mowbray? Any more so than Roy Keane who has spent a billion pounds and struggles to get out of the bottom 6. Anymore than Joe Kinnear and his public mental breakdown? It’s a sweeping statement that, Mr. M. I don't give a toss about WBA or Blunderland. Tone is definately out of his depth. He has never managed at this level before, and it is all new to him. It is not a sweeping statement. Just because other managers are not up to scratch, don't think it changes anything. We do not have as many points as we had planned for at this stage, and we have spent a fortune compared to some other clubs in the bottom third. I'm not saying it's all wank - in fact I've enjoyed every game at home bar Chelsea, and the away games haven't been a disaster - it's not a bed of roses either.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2008 18:01:35 GMT
Exactly which clubs in the "bottom third" have we spent a fortune compared to? I can think of Wigan and...
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Post by MrMagic on Oct 28, 2008 18:56:46 GMT
We have spent £21m. I've not got a list of the expendature of all of our rivals at hand but I'd expect that some have spent less. How much did Blackburn, Hull, WBA, Middlesbrough, Wigan spend between June and September this year?
Based on what we have spent, I think we should have a more versatile team. That is my opinion, not a fact, but I'm sticking by it. We pissed about for too long and ended up with a skewed squad who we cannot use effectively. All of the players we bought in look good, but even the manager seems perplexed as to who will work best together.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 28, 2008 19:03:09 GMT
He's out of comfort zone Mr M, we'll find out whether he's out of his depth soon enough. The results say maybe he is the performances say maybe he's not.
The results will always be the final reckoning of course but we just don't know yet do we?
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