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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Apr 10, 2024 9:10:04 GMT
The point I've been making all along that you can't use a one dimensional term like right wing/left wing to describe modern politics. The defining factor in the 70s was in terms of economic policy - Labour were for state ownership, the Tories the free market. In those terms Reform UK is nearer to the Labour Party of the 70s than the current Labour Party and in that sense left of centre. Social attitudes weren't such a big differentiating factor in the 70s and it was less of a deciding factor on how people voted. There were many in the Labour movement, particularly in the unions, who were dead against immigration and I suspect many of those people are now supporting Reform UK. Claiming pro immigration was a defining feature of the old left simply isn't true. Also in the 70s climate change wasn't a major issue and didn't play a part in differentiating economic policy. And in the 7Os it was the Labour Party who were fighting against pit closures. The left claiming credit for climate aware economic policy requires something of a rewrite of history. I'd definitely characterize Reform UK as being socially conservative but associating social attitudes with left and right simply doesn't work. A good number of Tories are essentially socially progressive even though they keep quiet on the matter so as not to lose the socially conservative vote. You appear to be missing my point that you can't pigeon hole the political parties in the UK in simple left/right terms. It's way more nuanced than that. Surely that last paragraph applies to people too, despite the want of posters on here to label anyone who disagrees with their leanings? Yes absolutely. There is a tendency to badge people as left or right and depending on whether you consider yourself left or right badge people as right or wrong accordingly. People's views are way more nuanced than that - some people badged as on the right might hold views on some topic that are considered left and vice versa. That for me is the craic of the problem with FPTP and the two party system - it now longer represents the complexity of the range of opinions that people hold. Badging people and political parties as either left or right mo longer works.
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Post by gawa on Apr 10, 2024 9:22:40 GMT
Excellent summary. The first time I looked at what reform were about, I thought they resembled the Callaghan government and therefore by extension the early days of the SDP. I myself fit your description of socially conservative but left leaning political interventionism. I feel at home in the old right wing of the Labour Party which died with John Smith. Reform's economic policies remind me of the Labour Party of the 70s and early 80s - not exactly socialist but further to the left than the current Labour Party. This isn't that surprising given that those policies, unlike those of the Tories, were designed to benefit the working cless. The core demographic of Reform is ex Labour voters who got disillusioned with Labour's drift to the university educated middle class and the adoption of a progressive social attitudes. Labour are desperately trying to portray themselves as representing the socially conservative working class but the reality is they don't anymore. They are being just as dishonesty as the Tories. My background is classic working class but I got a university education, have adopted socially progressive attitudes and had a decent career in IT. I get what it is to be working class but I'd be lying if I were to say that's where I'm at now. I'd never vote Reform but I get why people do and that section of the electorate deserve a voice and neither the Tories nor Labour are that voice. What have Labour done for university educated aside from introducing university fees? Curious to know. Reform are a pro establishment Liz Truss-esque conservstive party. Nothing left wing about the party. Their calls for tax cuts will simply help expedite the death of our already failing public services and speed up the movement towards NHS privatisation. The party is made up of and led by people with a history in right wing politics. How anyone can try and attribute them as left wing is beyond me 🤣. I see very little different from them and the current tory and Labour parties. Probably why so many voters are disulliousned and politically homeless compared to previous elections because all 3 parties are very similar to eachother with a Fag Paper difference between them.
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Voting
Apr 10, 2024 14:11:29 GMT
via mobile
gawa likes this
Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Apr 10, 2024 14:11:29 GMT
Reform's economic policies remind me of the Labour Party of the 70s and early 80s - not exactly socialist but further to the left than the current Labour Party. This isn't that surprising given that those policies, unlike those of the Tories, were designed to benefit the working cless. The core demographic of Reform is ex Labour voters who got disillusioned with Labour's drift to the university educated middle class and the adoption of a progressive social attitudes. Labour are desperately trying to portray themselves as representing the socially conservative working class but the reality is they don't anymore. They are being just as dishonesty as the Tories. My background is classic working class but I got a university education, have adopted socially progressive attitudes and had a decent career in IT. I get what it is to be working class but I'd be lying if I were to say that's where I'm at now. I'd never vote Reform but I get why people do and that section of the electorate deserve a voice and neither the Tories nor Labour are that voice. What have Labour done for university educated aside from introducing university fees? Curious to know. Reform are a pro establishment Liz Truss-esque conservstive party. Nothing left wing about the party. Their calls for tax cuts will simply help expedite the death of our already failing public services and speed up the movement towards NHS privatisation. The party is made up of and led by people with a history in right wing politics. How anyone can try and attribute them as left wing is beyond me 🤣. I see very little different from them and the current tory and Labour parties. Probably why so many voters are disulliousned and politically homeless compared to previous elections because all 3 parties are very similar to eachother with a Fag Paper difference between them. The Labour Party oversaw a massive increase in university places. But that isn't the point I was making. The point was the Labour Party have adopted the socially progressive attitudes common among the university educated middle class and have rejected the socially conservative attitudes common among their traditional working class vote. As a result large numbers of working class people no longer feel Labour represents them. Reform UK are not Pro establishment - they are way more anti establishment than Labour or the Tories. In fact THE political establishment ARE the Tory and Labour Party. Their macro economic policy in terms of state ownership is way closer to the "left wing" economic policy of the 1970s Labour than the current Labour Party. In addition Reform UK's macro economic policy is anti-globalist/nationalist. The Tory right are Uber globalist free market. The two parties actually represent the unholy alliance formed over Brexit - the Tory and Reform UK positions are the polar opposite. I did not say Reform UK are a left wing party. I said Reform UK are more left wing in terms of their macro economic policy. However you are completely missing the point. What I am saying is that the labels "left" and "right" do not adequately describe contemporary politics and political parties no long fit neatly into those categories. In fact you are doing a great job confirming my point - the only way you can shoe horn the current range of political opinion and the parties that represent them into simplistic terms of left and right is by either misrepresenting them or over simplifying their position.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Apr 10, 2024 17:50:37 GMT
Reform's economic policies remind me of the Labour Party of the 70s and early 80s - not exactly socialist but further to the left than the current Labour Party. This isn't that surprising given that those policies, unlike those of the Tories, were designed to benefit the working cless. The core demographic of Reform is ex Labour voters who got disillusioned with Labour's drift to the university educated middle class and the adoption of a progressive social attitudes. Labour are desperately trying to portray themselves as representing the socially conservative working class but the reality is they don't anymore. They are being just as dishonesty as the Tories. My background is classic working class but I got a university education, have adopted socially progressive attitudes and had a decent career in IT. I get what it is to be working class but I'd be lying if I were to say that's where I'm at now. I'd never vote Reform but I get why people do and that section of the electorate deserve a voice and neither the Tories nor Labour are that voice. What have Labour done for university educated aside from introducing university fees? Curious to know. Reform are a pro establishment Liz Truss-esque conservstive party. Nothing left wing about the party. Their calls for tax cuts will simply help expedite the death of our already failing public services and speed up the movement towards NHS privatisation. The party is made up of and led by people with a history in right wing politics. How anyone can try and attribute them as left wing is beyond me 🤣. I see very little different from them and the current tory and Labour parties. Probably why so many voters are disulliousned and politically homeless compared to previous elections because all 3 parties are very similar to eachother with a Fag Paper difference between them. I'd agree with some of this Gawa, I think Reform are largely Right wing, but many of the people who vote for them won't be....they perhaps see an alternative to the Main two, and a party with a leader who is charismatic ( if Farage returns, something I think is genuinely 50/ 50) and someone who talks directly and reflects the concerns of many about the ( (so called dog whistle) issues , such as immigration , Islam, the NHS. Populism. What's the alternative, don't talk about them. Brexit wasn't Left/ Right, Labour/ Tory but the intellectual New Left don't seem to be able to grasp this.Hence Galloway and Farage sharing a platform. I don't think Reform are an establishment party, but the leadership may be made up of Establishment figures. The same as other parties? Again , what's the alternative? Pragmatically, it seems to me that the main ( only) players in the next election are the big two, and the also rans, the LibDems, Reform and the Greens. Personally I see the LibDems as very much part of the system, the establishment, useful fools if needed to prop one of the others up. The Greens, sincere, important, I can see the reason for voting for them...but they will be perceived as a single issue party, irrespective of any manifesto. A party's name is important. Given the opportunity I will vote Reform, I am a member. The reason being, I've absolutely no faith whatsoever in the main two.A vote for either is a vote for the status quo. It seems to me that most posters on here seem the same. Reform for me would at least give some hope of .....Reform. Just dreaming, if they were elected to government ( Obviously impossible, unlikely to get a seat.....but they are thinking about the election AfFTER this one...if they at least got a sizeable vote , it would make a small statement against....the status quo, and give a base for growth)....they would have to " put their money where their mouth is"....If they abolished the HofL and somehow changed FPTP....that would be absolutely seismic..... Then in following elections ( as things stand) it would not bother me if Reform disappeared Obviously things are not that simplistic. There are only so many choices at an election, and as is often used as criticism, those voting Labour or Tory" Remember what you voted for".....
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Voting
Apr 10, 2024 18:07:28 GMT
via mobile
Post by thehartshillbadger on Apr 10, 2024 18:07:28 GMT
What have Labour done for university educated aside from introducing university fees? Curious to know. Reform are a pro establishment Liz Truss-esque conservstive party. Nothing left wing about the party. Their calls for tax cuts will simply help expedite the death of our already failing public services and speed up the movement towards NHS privatisation. The party is made up of and led by people with a history in right wing politics. How anyone can try and attribute them as left wing is beyond me 🤣. I see very little different from them and the current tory and Labour parties. Probably why so many voters are disulliousned and politically homeless compared to previous elections because all 3 parties are very similar to eachother with a Fag Paper difference between them. I'd agree with some of this Gawa, I think Reform are largely Right wing, but many of the people who vote for them won't be....they perhaps see an alternative to the Main two, and a party with a leader who is charismatic ( if Farage returns, something I think is genuinely 50/ 50) and someone who talks directly and reflects the concerns of many about the ( (so called dog whistle) issues , such as immigration , Islam, the NHS. Populism. What's the alternative, don't talk about them. Brexit wasn't Left/ Right, Labour/ Tory but the intellectual New Left don't seem to be able to grasp this.Hence Galloway and Farage sharing a platform. I don't think Reform are an establishment party, but the leadership may be made up of Establishment figures. The same as other parties? Again , what's the alternative? Pragmatically, it seems to me that the main ( only) players in the next election are the big two, and the also rans, the LibDems, Reform and the Greens. Personally I see the LibDems as very much part of the system, the establishment, useful fools if needed to prop one of the others up. The Greens, sincere, important, I can see the reason for voting for them...but they will be perceived as a single issue party, irrespective of any manifesto. A party's name is important. Given the opportunity I will vote Reform, I am a member. The reason being, I've absolutely no faith whatsoever in the main two.A vote for either is a vote for the status quo. It seems to me that most posters on here seem the same. Reform for me would at least give some hope of .....Reform. Just dreaming, if they were elected to government ( Obviously impossible, unlikely to get a seat.....but they are thinking about the election AfFTER this one...if they at least got a sizeable vote , it would make a small statement against....the status quo, and give a base for growth)....they would have to " put their money where their mouth is"....If they abolished the HofL and somehow changed FPTP....that would be absolutely seismic..... Then in following elections ( as things stand) it would not bother me if Reform disappeared Obviously things are not that simplistic. There are only so many choices at an election, and as is often used as criticism, those voting Labour or Tory" Remember what you voted for"..... Absolutely spot on BJR
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Post by gawa on Apr 10, 2024 18:54:17 GMT
What have Labour done for university educated aside from introducing university fees? Curious to know. Reform are a pro establishment Liz Truss-esque conservstive party. Nothing left wing about the party. Their calls for tax cuts will simply help expedite the death of our already failing public services and speed up the movement towards NHS privatisation. The party is made up of and led by people with a history in right wing politics. How anyone can try and attribute them as left wing is beyond me 🤣. I see very little different from them and the current tory and Labour parties. Probably why so many voters are disulliousned and politically homeless compared to previous elections because all 3 parties are very similar to eachother with a Fag Paper difference between them. I'd agree with some of this Gawa, I think Reform are largely Right wing, but many of the people who vote for them won't be....they perhaps see an alternative to the Main two, and a party with a leader who is charismatic ( if Farage returns, something I think is genuinely 50/ 50) and someone who talks directly and reflects the concerns of many about the ( (so called dog whistle) issues , such as immigration , Islam, the NHS. Populism. What's the alternative, don't talk about them. Brexit wasn't Left/ Right, Labour/ Tory but the intellectual New Left don't seem to be able to grasp this.Hence Galloway and Farage sharing a platform. I don't think Reform are an establishment party, but the leadership may be made up of Establishment figures. The same as other parties? Again , what's the alternative? Pragmatically, it seems to me that the main ( only) players in the next election are the big two, and the also rans, the LibDems, Reform and the Greens. Personally I see the LibDems as very much part of the system, the establishment, useful fools if needed to prop one of the others up. The Greens, sincere, important, I can see the reason for voting for them...but they will be perceived as a single issue party, irrespective of any manifesto. A party's name is important. Given the opportunity I will vote Reform, I am a member. The reason being, I've absolutely no faith whatsoever in the main two.A vote for either is a vote for the status quo. It seems to me that most posters on here seem the same. Reform for me would at least give some hope of .....Reform. Just dreaming, if they were elected to government ( Obviously impossible, unlikely to get a seat.....but they are thinking about the election AfFTER this one...if they at least got a sizeable vote , it would make a small statement against....the status quo, and give a base for growth)....they would have to " put their money where their mouth is"....If they abolished the HofL and somehow changed FPTP....that would be absolutely seismic..... Then in following elections ( as things stand) it would not bother me if Reform disappeared Obviously things are not that simplistic. There are only so many choices at an election, and as is often used as criticism, those voting Labour or Tory" Remember what you voted for"..... I respect your views and at least a vote for Reform is a vote for change from the current system. I truly hope they get some seats at the next election to potentially build on because I don't think our 2 party system is working for the electorate. I guess when you have journeymen such as Ben Habib, Lee Anderson, Anne Widecombe and Nigel Farage which have typically been right wing and pro establishment in some instances in the past then that's why people like myself may see that. With that said though I hold no animosity towards them or their supporters. Someone on here once posted an excellent speech by Anne Widecombe where she effectively said that rather than silence those with different opinions she'd rather them be given a platform so that their views can be debated and they can be proven incorrect (or correct) and I thought it was a superb speech which I agree with. And I guess that's where I'm at with Reform. I don't support them but I want them to have some seats in the commons and to have a voice and for their views to be debated rather than silenced. The only way you can hold them to account is by getting them into the commons to begin with where they can put their money where their mouth is. That's not me saying I hope they get shown up by the way. It's just me saying that their manifesto resonates with people and thus they deserve a platform where they can voice those opinions and they can properly be debated. Plus for far too long the right wing (I understand not everyone sees reform as right wing) have only been represented by the tories. Its good to have different right leaning parties in the commons to hold the tories to account.
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Post by deeside2 on Apr 11, 2024 5:51:12 GMT
What have Labour done for university educated aside from introducing university fees? Curious to know. Reform are a pro establishment Liz Truss-esque conservstive party. Nothing left wing about the party. Their calls for tax cuts will simply help expedite the death of our already failing public services and speed up the movement towards NHS privatisation. The party is made up of and led by people with a history in right wing politics. How anyone can try and attribute them as left wing is beyond me 🤣. I see very little different from them and the current tory and Labour parties. Probably why so many voters are disulliousned and politically homeless compared to previous elections because all 3 parties are very similar to eachother with a Fag Paper difference between them. I'd agree with some of this Gawa, I think Reform are largely Right wing, but many of the people who vote for them won't be....they perhaps see an alternative to the Main two, and a party with a leader who is charismatic ( if Farage returns, something I think is genuinely 50/ 50) and someone who talks directly and reflects the concerns of many about the ( (so called dog whistle) issues , such as immigration , Islam, the NHS. Populism. What's the alternative, don't talk about them. Brexit wasn't Left/ Right, Labour/ Tory but the intellectual New Left don't seem to be able to grasp this.Hence Galloway and Farage sharing a platform. I don't think Reform are an establishment party, but the leadership may be made up of Establishment figures. The same as other parties? Again , what's the alternative? Pragmatically, it seems to me that the main ( only) players in the next election are the big two, and the also rans, the LibDems, Reform and the Greens. Personally I see the LibDems as very much part of the system, the establishment, useful fools if needed to prop one of the others up. The Greens, sincere, important, I can see the reason for voting for them...but they will be perceived as a single issue party, irrespective of any manifesto. A party's name is important. Given the opportunity I will vote Reform, I am a member. The reason being, I've absolutely no faith whatsoever in the main two.A vote for either is a vote for the status quo. It seems to me that most posters on here seem the same. Reform for me would at least give some hope of .....Reform. Just dreaming, if they were elected to government ( Obviously impossible, unlikely to get a seat.....but they are thinking about the election AfFTER this one...if they at least got a sizeable vote , it would make a small statement against....the status quo, and give a base for growth)....they would have to " put their money where their mouth is"....If they abolished the HofL and somehow changed FPTP....that would be absolutely seismic..... Then in following elections ( as things stand) it would not bother me if Reform disappeared Obviously things are not that simplistic. There are only so many choices at an election, and as is often used as criticism, those voting Labour or Tory" Remember what you voted for"..... Same here Big John. I joined a few months ago and totally agree with your post.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Apr 11, 2024 10:02:57 GMT
I'd agree with some of this Gawa, I think Reform are largely Right wing, but many of the people who vote for them won't be....they perhaps see an alternative to the Main two, and a party with a leader who is charismatic ( if Farage returns, something I think is genuinely 50/ 50) and someone who talks directly and reflects the concerns of many about the ( (so called dog whistle) issues , such as immigration , Islam, the NHS. Populism. What's the alternative, don't talk about them. Brexit wasn't Left/ Right, Labour/ Tory but the intellectual New Left don't seem to be able to grasp this.Hence Galloway and Farage sharing a platform. I don't think Reform are an establishment party, but the leadership may be made up of Establishment figures. The same as other parties? Again , what's the alternative? Pragmatically, it seems to me that the main ( only) players in the next election are the big two, and the also rans, the LibDems, Reform and the Greens. Personally I see the LibDems as very much part of the system, the establishment, useful fools if needed to prop one of the others up. The Greens, sincere, important, I can see the reason for voting for them...but they will be perceived as a single issue party, irrespective of any manifesto. A party's name is important. Given the opportunity I will vote Reform, I am a member. The reason being, I've absolutely no faith whatsoever in the main two.A vote for either is a vote for the status quo. It seems to me that most posters on here seem the same. Reform for me would at least give some hope of .....Reform. Just dreaming, if they were elected to government ( Obviously impossible, unlikely to get a seat.....but they are thinking about the election AfFTER this one...if they at least got a sizeable vote , it would make a small statement against....the status quo, and give a base for growth)....they would have to " put their money where their mouth is"....If they abolished the HofL and somehow changed FPTP....that would be absolutely seismic..... Then in following elections ( as things stand) it would not bother me if Reform disappeared Obviously things are not that simplistic. There are only so many choices at an election, and as is often used as criticism, those voting Labour or Tory" Remember what you voted for"..... I respect your views and at least a vote for Reform is a vote for change from the current system. I truly hope they get some seats at the next election to potentially build on because I don't think our 2 party system is working for the electorate. I guess when you have journeymen such as Ben Habib, Lee Anderson, Anne Widecombe and Nigel Farage which have typically been right wing and pro establishment in some instances in the past then that's why people like myself may see that. With that said though I hold no animosity towards them or their supporters. Someone on here once posted an excellent speech by Anne Widecombe where she effectively said that rather than silence those with different opinions she'd rather them be given a platform so that their views can be debated and they can be proven incorrect (or correct) and I thought it was a superb speech which I agree with. And I guess that's where I'm at with Reform. I don't support them but I want them to have some seats in the commons and to have a voice and for their views to be debated rather than silenced. The only way you can hold them to account is by getting them into the commons to begin with where they can put their money where their mouth is. That's not me saying I hope they get shown up by the way. It's just me saying that their manifesto resonates with people and thus they deserve a platform where they can voice those opinions and they can properly be debated. Plus for far too long the right wing (I understand not everyone sees reform as right wing) have only been represented by the tories. Its good to have different right leaning parties in the commons to hold the tories to account. That's pretty much my position Between them the Lib Dems, the Greens and Reform UK are supported by nearly one third of the electorate yet at the next election the Greens and Reform UK are likely to have no MPs and the Lib Dems about 20-30. How is that right? I'm not a fan of Anne Widdecombe but she is spot on - people should have their voice represented in Parliament (from the French parle - to talk) but the current voting system deliberately denies the right to a voice to nearly a third of the electorate. That is just wrong.
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Voting
Apr 11, 2024 11:07:23 GMT
Post by desman2 on Apr 11, 2024 11:07:23 GMT
I thought it was the Tory/LibDem coalition that introduced fees. It was certainly the Labour party that dismantled training schools and colleges to divert students to universities. That's why when I discuss with younger people the notion that they have that anyone over 40 destroyed their future I remind them that it was those post war people who put things in place for their futures only to have it taken away by those in more modern politics.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Apr 12, 2024 9:58:08 GMT
I thought it was the Tory/LibDem coalition that introduced fees. It was certainly the Labour party that dismantled training schools and colleges to divert students to universities. That's why when I discuss with younger people the notion that they have that anyone over 40 destroyed their future I remind them that it was those post war people who put things in place for their futures only to have it taken away by those in more modern politics. It was Labour who introduced tuition fees. The Lib Dems had a manifesto pledge to scrap them but ditched it in coalition with the Tories. The number of people going on to post 16 education post war was tiny. It increased massively in the 90s under Labour. In terms of vocational education the biggest impact wasn't education policy, it was the knock on effects of Thatcher's deindustrialization in the 80s. Demand for practical skills plummeted and the remaining big industries stopped funding high quality apprenticeships and dumped it on the state. I think converting the poly's to universities was a mistake but to say it's the recent generation who have reduced opportunities for young people is stretching it - more young people are going into some form of post 16 education than ever before. The problem the FE colleges have is funding and the fact that the higher quality students are going to university and a good number of their students aren't really good enough to do courses like engineering and don't want to be there. I agree more money needs to go into FE but the bigger challenge is changing the focus of the economy so that the those jobs are available and getting the whole of society to respect and value practical skills. In countries like Germany and France those skills are valued - our class system means those skills continue to be looked down upon.
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Voting
Apr 12, 2024 14:01:06 GMT
via mobile
Post by Eggybread on Apr 12, 2024 14:01:06 GMT
Every time Starmer opens his mouth he puts me off voting.
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