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Post by prestwichpotter on Nov 24, 2023 13:59:36 GMT
Would we have been a better team overall with Osgood in it and John Farmer between the sticks, that is the question? My memory of it is that Shilton was a fantastic buy at the time. We oozed from confidence from the time he came in and the fact is the defence had not felt confident with John Farmer just at that point in time. The difference with him in goal was very noticeable from my memory. We just needed a centre forward, the fact we didn't get Osgood was nothing to do with Shilton, it wasn't either or, the two were 6 months apart, and last minute Osgood went for the South coast option and didn't want to move North. Shilton's later dip in form was post Forest. He was superb at Forest, there was definitely a gradual decline from there, starting at Southampton after looking really good in the beginning. I'm not saying it was anything to do with Shilton, but as someone only born in '76 it's interesting to know whether he was worth the money as an upgrade on Farmer when in hindsight it could have been used elsewhere?
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Post by standbutler1 on Nov 24, 2023 15:04:07 GMT
It was away to Wolves, I'm sure, I was there! 😜 It was at home mate That the day we were 2-0 down coming up to the 90th minute and we scored twice to grab the draw? Terry Conroy? I thought is was away to the dingles my first away game. Think Danny Bower's made is debut to
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Post by spitthedog on Nov 24, 2023 15:08:56 GMT
It was at home mate That the day we were 2-0 down coming up to the 90th minute and we scored twice to grab the draw? Terry Conroy? I thought is was away to the dingles my first away game. Think Danny Bower's made is debut to It was away Shilton made 2 or 3 incredible saves that day and yes it was Danny Bower's debut. We had loads of injuries.
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Post by spitthedog on Nov 24, 2023 15:28:20 GMT
My memory of it is that Shilton was a fantastic buy at the time. We oozed from confidence from the time he came in and the fact is the defence had not felt confident with John Farmer just at that point in time. The difference with him in goal was very noticeable from my memory. We just needed a centre forward, the fact we didn't get Osgood was nothing to do with Shilton, it wasn't either or, the two were 6 months apart, and last minute Osgood went for the South coast option and didn't want to move North. Shilton's later dip in form was post Forest. He was superb at Forest, there was definitely a gradual decline from there, starting at Southampton after looking really good in the beginning. I'm not saying it was anything to do with Shilton, but as someone only born in '76 it's interesting to know whether he was worth the money as an upgrade on Farmer when in hindsight it could have been used elsewhere? Maybe, but before we bought Shilton, John Farmer had been conceding quite a few goals in games we should have won. I dont know whether it was a lack of confidence or what, but basically John's career ended more or less then and there, he was in non-league football at the age of 27 so there must be a story there. John Farmer was much loved so I can understand the feeling of resentment towards Shilton. Im of the opinion we needed a goalkeeper, I'm also of the opinion, from what I saw, that Shilton was the best in the world at the time, or very close, and that was a massive coup for Stoke. He pulled off many world class saves in that period when he arrived. We felt really solid at the back. Its not clear whether there was also the possibility to sign a striker at the time, or not. Waddo had pinned his hopes on Osgood but that had fell through. Its possible that Waddo thought Ian Moores was good enough for us, certainly the fans felt we needed better, but if anything it was injuries which did us that season more than anything.
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Post by bobbyh on Nov 24, 2023 15:44:08 GMT
My memory of it is that Shilton was a fantastic buy at the time. We oozed from confidence from the time he came in and the fact is the defence had not felt confident with John Farmer just at that point in time. The difference with him in goal was very noticeable from my memory. We just needed a centre forward, the fact we didn't get Osgood was nothing to do with Shilton, it wasn't either or, the two were 6 months apart, and last minute Osgood went for the South coast option and didn't want to move North. Shilton's later dip in form was post Forest. He was superb at Forest, there was definitely a gradual decline from there, starting at Southampton after looking really good in the beginning. I'm not saying it was anything to do with Shilton, but as someone only born in '76 it's interesting to know whether he was worth the money as an upgrade on Farmer when in hindsight it could have been used elsewhere? I have to agree with Spit on this one. I saw all but one home game that season, and approx half the away fixtures. I was at Wolves when Shilton made his debut , and he was definitely an upgrade on Johnnie Farmer. Don't get me wrong, John was a good goalie, and I don't think anyone was crying out for a big signing in that position, but it did give the team extra confidence, and our form was very good from there on in. Now, it's true that the fans, me included, felt that Osgood or a similar top class centre forward would have been the missing link in our title chase and, after John Ritchie was injured, we were rotating with Geoff Hurst, Ian Moores, and even Dave Goodwin for a few games, without really solving that problem. Jimmy Greenhoff thrived off the knock downs and precise heading of Ritchie, who was on great form before he broke his leg in September 74. The others all chipped in a few goals, but Jimmy took the main goalscoring burden on himself after that. I think many of us felt that an Osgood alongside could have brought us the title, as there weren't any other real weaknesses in that side. We will never know, but we haven't come remotely close to the title since.
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Post by outspaced on Nov 24, 2023 16:46:22 GMT
Out of interest, does anybody know what the highest position we achieved in the Prem was? Vague memory of us being around 6th or 7th after we beat Liverpool on that great Boxing Night under Tone.
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Post by march4 on Nov 24, 2023 17:33:55 GMT
A couple of observations on the Osgood vs Shilton debate.
1. Osgood was an expensive flop at Soton so could well have been the same at Stoke. I think they were soon to be relegated.
2. Other good forwards such as Franny Lee, Charlie George, Malcolm MacDonald were at various times available. However these were not the big CF Waddo was possibly seeking.
3. Other good keepers were available. Bonetti for example, was one of the unsettled Chelsea players and could have provided competition for Farmer. Derby and Leeds won things with dodgy keepers and Farmer was better.
4. Shilton never seemed to suit our style of play. He insisted the defenders push up more and this didn’t play to the strengths of Denis and Co.
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Post by bobbyh on Nov 24, 2023 18:37:36 GMT
Out of interest, does anybody know what the highest position we achieved in the Prem was? Vague memory of us being around 6th or 7th after we beat Liverpool on that great Boxing Night under Tone. Just had a look and we were 8th that night. We have been higher on at least one occasion right at the start of the season, but the win against Liverpool was after 19 games. The table below is when we were top of the league in Feb 75. I think that was the last time we actually topped the Old Division 1. Happy days
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Nov 25, 2023 0:34:28 GMT
A couple of observations on the Osgood vs Shilton debate. 1. Osgood was an expensive flop at Soton so could well have been the same at Stoke. I think they were soon to be relegated. 2. Other good forwards such as Franny Lee, Charlie George, Malcolm MacDonald were at various times available. However these were not the big CF Waddo was possibly seeking. 3. Other good keepers were available. Bonetti for example, was one of the unsettled Chelsea players and could have provided competition for Farmer. Derby and Leeds won things with dodgy keepers and Farmer was better. 4. Shilton never seemed to suit our style of play. He insisted the defenders push up more and this didn’t play to the strengths of Denis and Co. Was Colin Boulton the Derby keeper or was he later? Can't remember Derby winning the league but don't seem to remember him as particularly outstanding. To be fair was a lot of fairly average keepers about when and the following seasons. Very few foreign keepers and they were a snobbily looked down upon as not as good as British keepers when I was a kid. Sepp Maier and Zoff at international level were great keepers , Fillol also.
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Post by march4 on Nov 25, 2023 0:46:00 GMT
A couple of observations on the Osgood vs Shilton debate. 1. Osgood was an expensive flop at Soton so could well have been the same at Stoke. I think they were soon to be relegated. 2. Other good forwards such as Franny Lee, Charlie George, Malcolm MacDonald were at various times available. However these were not the big CF Waddo was possibly seeking. 3. Other good keepers were available. Bonetti for example, was one of the unsettled Chelsea players and could have provided competition for Farmer. Derby and Leeds won things with dodgy keepers and Farmer was better. 4. Shilton never seemed to suit our style of play. He insisted the defenders push up more and this didn’t play to the strengths of Denis and Co. Was Colin Boulton the Derby keeper or was he later? Can't remember Derby winning the league but don't seem to remember him as particularly outstanding. To be fair was a lot of fairly average keepers about when and the following seasons. Very few foreign keepers and they were a snobbily looked down upon as not as good as British keepers when I was a kid. Sepp Maier and Zoff at international level were great keepers , Fillol also. That’s right, it was Colin Boulton. He wasn’t particularly tall for a keeper and struggled with crosses. Leeds had Sprake and Harvey who weren’t as good as Farmer either.
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Post by senojbor on Nov 25, 2023 0:53:09 GMT
Out of interest, does anybody know what the highest position we achieved in the Prem was? Vague memory of us being around 6th or 7th after we beat Liverpool on that great Boxing Night under Tone. Couldn't believe the messiah was sacked at the end of that season. I'll never forgive the people who orchestrated it
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Nov 25, 2023 1:14:36 GMT
Was Colin Boulton the Derby keeper or was he later? Can't remember Derby winning the league but don't seem to remember him as particularly outstanding. To be fair was a lot of fairly average keepers about when and the following seasons. Very few foreign keepers and they were a snobbily looked down upon as not as good as British keepers when I was a kid. Sepp Maier and Zoff at international level were great keepers , Fillol also. That’s right, it was Colin Boulton. He wasn’t particularly tall for a keeper and struggled with crosses. Leeds had Sprake and Harvey who weren’t as good as Farmer either. I remember Kevin Keelan, Indian I think and not very tall but a good keeper. Were no big and tall keepers in them days. The first tall keeper I rember was Wolfgang Knieb watching the 77 Euro Cup final. Was rare to see a 6ft 3 keeper or taller like him.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 25, 2023 9:05:17 GMT
That’s right, it was Colin Boulton. He wasn’t particularly tall for a keeper and struggled with crosses. Leeds had Sprake and Harvey who weren’t as good as Farmer either. I remember Kevin Keelan, Indian I think and not very tall but a good keeper. Were no big and tall keepers in them days. The first tall keeper I rember was Wolfgang Knieb watching the 77 Euro Cup final. Was rare to see a 6ft 3 keeper or taller like him. Corrigan...Clemence...Jennings?
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Post by mistergumby on Nov 25, 2023 10:22:34 GMT
Out of interest, does anybody know what the highest position we achieved in the Prem was? Vague memory of us being around 6th or 7th after we beat Liverpool on that great Boxing Night under Tone. Just had a look and we were 8th that night. We have been higher on at least one occasion right at the start of the season, but the win against Liverpool was after 19 games. The table below is when we were top of the league in Feb 75. I think that was the last time we actually topped the Old Division 1. Happy days Now then. In September 1981 we beat Covvo 4-0 with 2 goals each from Chappers and Incho. Although it was only 2 games into the season my abiding memory is that we were top of the table that night albeit only until the following match. But I can't be arsed to research it and am probably wrong anyway. So can anybody else confirm or deny this?
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Post by lawrieleslie on Nov 25, 2023 10:47:35 GMT
More interesting was the occasion that Shilts was porking someones missus in his Jag, husband arrived on the scene, Shilts panicked and tried to drive off with his kecks around his ankles and crashed into a lamppost, twas in all the papers. Thought it was in his Mini Cooper. He got banned for 15 months. There's a member on the board called petershiltonsmini.
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Nov 25, 2023 11:01:33 GMT
I remember Kevin Keelan, Indian I think and not very tall but a good keeper. Were no big and tall keepers in them days. The first tall keeper I rember was Wolfgang Knieb watching the 77 Euro Cup final. Was rare to see a 6ft 3 keeper or taller like him. Corrigan...Clemence...Jennings? Wouldn't call Clemence big in the sense of today's keepers . Fantastic goalie though. Corrigan was a bit of a rarity in size for the day. Keepers generally weren't big framed then, in fact quite the opposite. Jim Platt another tall one but be average in today's game Internationally also had the likes of Quiroga and Bento who would be conidered very small today
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Post by greenhoff on Nov 25, 2023 11:21:26 GMT
Yes Stoke went top of Division One , i was there on the Boothern End when Dennis Smith scored ( at the Boothern End) when we beat Leicester City on 30 November 1974. My second ever game. I remember thinking it would always be like this
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Nov 25, 2023 11:22:44 GMT
Just had a look and we were 8th that night. We have been higher on at least one occasion right at the start of the season, but the win against Liverpool was after 19 games. The table below is when we were top of the league in Feb 75. I think that was the last time we actually topped the Old Division 1. Happy days Now then. In September 1981 we beat Covvo 4-0 with 2 goals each from Chappers and Incho. Although it was only 2 games into the season my abiding memory is that we were top of the table that night albeit only until the following match. But I can't be arsed to research it and am probably wrong anyway. So can anybody else confirm or deny this? Strange game as they could have scored 4 or 5 Hateley was a right handful
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Post by greenhoff on Nov 25, 2023 11:24:21 GMT
Just had a look and we were 8th that night. We have been higher on at least one occasion right at the start of the season, but the win against Liverpool was after 19 games. The table below is when we were top of the league in Feb 75. I think that was the last time we actually topped the Old Division 1. Happy days Now then. In September 1981 we beat Covvo 4-0 with 2 goals each from Chappers and Incho. Although it was only 2 games into the season my abiding memory is that we were top of the table that night albeit only until the following match. But I can't be arsed to research it and am probably wrong anyway. So can anybody else confirm or deny this? Think we'd beat Arsenal on the opening day one nil away. We then beat Coventry as you say. The next game was home to Man City. They were managed by John Bond and won 3-1 with Trevor Francis scoring twice on his debut. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Nov 25, 2023 11:26:10 GMT
More interesting was the occasion that Shilts was porking someones missus in his Jag, husband arrived on the scene, Shilts panicked and tried to drive off with his kecks around his ankles and crashed into a lamppost, twas in all the papers. Thought it was in his Mini Cooper. He got banned for 15 months. There's a member on the board called petershiltonsmini. View AttachmentWas a nurse in a mini, yep. Think he just caught him giving her a chest medical Got some terrace stick afterwards Shilton denied any shenanigans in the press saying they'd just had a few too many
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Post by spitthedog on Nov 25, 2023 11:46:30 GMT
Was Colin Boulton the Derby keeper or was he later? Can't remember Derby winning the league but don't seem to remember him as particularly outstanding. To be fair was a lot of fairly average keepers about when and the following seasons. Very few foreign keepers and they were a snobbily looked down upon as not as good as British keepers when I was a kid. Sepp Maier and Zoff at international level were great keepers , Fillol also. That’s right, it was Colin Boulton. He wasn’t particularly tall for a keeper and struggled with crosses. Leeds had Sprake and Harvey who weren’t as good as Farmer either. This begs the question, if John Farmer was so good why do you think he was not taken on by any club when Shilton came to Stoke? I know he went to Leicester, but basically as No.2 keeper behind a young and inexperienced Mark Wallington, and only played 2 games for them in the season he was there, then went to Northwich in non-League. Strange turn of events for someone so well regarded.
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Post by AlliG on Nov 25, 2023 11:51:02 GMT
That’s right, it was Colin Boulton. He wasn’t particularly tall for a keeper and struggled with crosses. Leeds had Sprake and Harvey who weren’t as good as Farmer either. This begs the question, if John Farmer was so good why do you think he was not taken on by any club when Shilton came to Stoke? I know he went to Leicester, but basically as No.2 keeper behind a young and inexperienced Mark Wallington, and only played 2 games for them in the season he was there, then went to Northwich in non-League. Strange turn of events for someone so well regarded. Unfortunately Farmer had become rather injury prone by the time he left Stoke. Seem to recall that he had a persistent leg injury (calf?) that eventually led to his retirement when he was only about 27/28.
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Post by march4 on Nov 25, 2023 11:55:40 GMT
That’s right, it was Colin Boulton. He wasn’t particularly tall for a keeper and struggled with crosses. Leeds had Sprake and Harvey who weren’t as good as Farmer either. I remember Kevin Keelan, Indian I think and not very tall but a good keeper. Were no big and tall keepers in them days. The first tall keeper I rember was Wolfgang Knieb watching the 77 Euro Cup final. Was rare to see a 6ft 3 keeper or taller like him. Joe Corrigan was a tall keeper.
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Post by march4 on Nov 25, 2023 11:57:48 GMT
That’s right, it was Colin Boulton. He wasn’t particularly tall for a keeper and struggled with crosses. Leeds had Sprake and Harvey who weren’t as good as Farmer either. This begs the question, if John Farmer was so good why do you think he was not taken on by any club when Shilton came to Stoke? I know he went to Leicester, but basically as No.2 keeper behind a young and inexperienced Mark Wallington, and only played 2 games for them in the season he was there, then went to Northwich in non-League. Strange turn of events for someone so well regarded. It was something I never understood. John became a rep after football and I used to chat to him at work when he visited. We talked football but I never had the courage to ask why he retired at an age when he should have been approaching his peak.
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Nov 25, 2023 12:09:55 GMT
I remember Kevin Keelan, Indian I think and not very tall but a good keeper. Were no big and tall keepers in them days. The first tall keeper I rember was Wolfgang Knieb watching the 77 Euro Cup final. Was rare to see a 6ft 3 keeper or taller like him. Joe Corrigan was a tall keeper. I met him in EST EST EST in Knutsford He asked me who I suppoemrted and his face dropped. Was forgetting his stint with us
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 25, 2023 12:11:38 GMT
Out of interest, does anybody know what the highest position we achieved in the Prem was? Vague memory of us being around 6th or 7th after we beat Liverpool on that great Boxing Night under Tone. Just had a look and we were 8th that night. We have been higher on at least one occasion right at the start of the season, but the win against Liverpool was after 19 games. The table below is when we were top of the league in Feb 75. I think that was the last time we actually topped the Old Division 1. Happy days Thanks for that. Interesting to see which clubs are there like Carlisle and which aren't like ManU.
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 25, 2023 12:21:28 GMT
That’s right, it was Colin Boulton. He wasn’t particularly tall for a keeper and struggled with crosses. Leeds had Sprake and Harvey who weren’t as good as Farmer either. I remember Kevin Keelan, Indian I think and not very tall but a good keeper. Were no big and tall keepers in them days. The first tall keeper I rember was Wolfgang Knieb watching the 77 Euro Cup final. Was rare to see a 6ft 3 keeper or taller like him. John Farmer was tall. I'm 6' and he was taller than me. Joe Corrigan was 6'4".
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 25, 2023 12:29:36 GMT
This begs the question, if John Farmer was so good why do you think he was not taken on by any club when Shilton came to Stoke? I know he went to Leicester, but basically as No.2 keeper behind a young and inexperienced Mark Wallington, and only played 2 games for them in the season he was there, then went to Northwich in non-League. Strange turn of events for someone so well regarded. It was something I never understood. John became a rep after football and I used to chat to him at work when he visited. We talked football but I never had the courage to ask why he retired at an age when he should have been approaching his peak. If John had a "fault", he didn't push himself enough. He was very laid back. He played for England at basketball when he was at Wolstanton Grammar and was an excellent cricketer who could gave gone far if he had chosen that route. He seemed happy to accept whatever life brought him, which isn't really a fault and leads to fewer disappointments in life. He was a very decent bloke, just quiet and not ambitious.
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Nov 25, 2023 12:31:22 GMT
I remember Kevin Keelan, Indian I think and not very tall but a good keeper. Were no big and tall keepers in them days. The first tall keeper I rember was Wolfgang Knieb watching the 77 Euro Cup final. Was rare to see a 6ft 3 keeper or taller like him. John Farmer was tall. I'm 6' and he was taller than me. Joe Corrigan was 6'4". Yep Corrigan was an exception. 6ft not particularly huge for a keeper. They didn't have the build in general of today's keepers either. Shilton was the first one I really remember that had any muscle on him
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Post by lawrieleslie on Nov 25, 2023 12:35:06 GMT
That’s right, it was Colin Boulton. He wasn’t particularly tall for a keeper and struggled with crosses. Leeds had Sprake and Harvey who weren’t as good as Farmer either. This begs the question, if John Farmer was so good why do you think he was not taken on by any club when Shilton came to Stoke? I know he went to Leicester, but basically as No.2 keeper behind a young and inexperienced Mark Wallington, and only played 2 games for them in the season he was there, then went to Northwich in non-League. Strange turn of events for someone so well regarded. I agree it gives food for thought as to why Farmer never attracted any interest from other clubs. I read somewhere that Setters had no confidence in the young Farmer and this one reason why Waddo bought Banks in 67. Farmer was happy to be Banks understudy for 5 years until he stepped up to the plate again in 72. Imo Farmer was one of the best shot stoppers of his time but he was fallible with crosses into the goalmouth and he didn’t command his defenders the way Banks or Shilton could.
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