|
Post by prestwichpotter on Sept 19, 2023 7:49:31 GMT
We’ve just signed 17 players and have Wesley as our sole striker and no cover at left centre back or real physical presence in defence and the club are patting themselves on the back over their recruitment and the fans are waving lyrical about players who have proved very little as yet. I’m not sure we lost a penny on the “not fit for purpose” players though, and Brown and Wilmot were perfect signings for the direction of travel we should be aiming for as a club, one has made us a profit and one would if he were sold tomorrow. Gayle is the one example of a bad deal in hindsight, although MON never had the opportunity to show us what he had planned for him and Delap medium to long term before getting sacked. I’m happy to show patience towards AN and the process, I also wanted MON to be given at least 6/7 more games as 5 games into a league season is not sufficient to judge anything. I suppose the question is those wanting rid of MON after 5 games last season how much patience do they show towards MON? My issue with O'Neil was his idea of football, possession football on the edge of your own 18 yard box hardly inspired hope. I had my own reservations about O Neil before we signed him aswell, it was quite clear his knowledge in the market would be extremely limited, as would his knowledge of the league and the players he was going to come up against. It seemed a really ill thought out appointment to me at the time His football was really entertaining (albeit in small doses partly brought on by injuries to key players) at certain times, and pretty ordinary at other times. He went “back to basics” to get us out of a run of bad form for example when we went to Blackpool and Luton (I think?) to grind out results, that shows pragmatism if you want to look at it positively. I’ll defend MON more than most on here, but it’s not actually about him it’s about a manager 46 games in who has shown no signs of bringing us more attractive football, or better results to date (other than a 5 game purple patch). I want AN to succeed, I’m prepared to be patient for him to succeed, but I’m not going to sit here and say I’ve seen anything under him that we wouldn’t have at least seen under MON because I have no evidence to back that up…..
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 19, 2023 8:00:33 GMT
We might've needed to rebuild slightly less if we'd signed more players fit for purpose over the last few years? We’ve just signed 17 players and have Wesley as our sole striker and no cover at left centre back or real physical presence in defence and the club are patting themselves on the back over their recruitment and the fans are waving lyrical about players who have proved very little as yet. I’m not sure we lost a penny on the “not fit for purpose” players though, and Brown and Wilmot were perfect signings for the direction of travel we should be aiming for as a club, one has made us a profit and one would if he were sold tomorrow (as would Laurent and even Baker to be fair). Gayle is the one example still on book of a bad deal in hindsight, although MON never had the opportunity to show us what he had planned for him and Delap medium to long term before getting sacked. I’m happy to show patience towards AN and the process, I also wanted MON to be given at least 6/7 more games as 5 games into a league season is not sufficient to judge anything. I suppose the question is those wanting rid of MON after 5 games last season how much patience do they show towards AN? I agree that the neglect of the defence in our summer recruitment is puzzling. I don't think you ever get everything you need in one window but to neglect that area as much as we did is odd. Is Wesley our sole striker? Is Mmaee not a striker as well? Is not losing a penny on the players the real quiz? How many of them were actually useful for what we needed them to do? Plenty of us thought Gayle looked a bad deal at the time. The recruitment got more and more confused, neglecting key areas like goalkeeper, DM and wing back and signing a succession of poachers and trying to retrofit them into being target men rather than just signing a target man. If it were purely the five games MON was being judged on I'd agree but it came after a spectacularly muddled window and a long spell of poor results and performances the previous season (and a similar second half collapse the season before that). You yourself have said it got stale towards the end, what did you see improving? I think even you were surprised he was so set on playing wing backs for as long as he did? I want to like Neil but he's making it incredibly difficult. I think we've signed some exciting players in some areas but I also worry a bit that, like late Hughes, we might've ignored character as a key factor in what makes a good signing and his incessant opposition-considering tinkering at the expense of picking a team and giving it chance to build some momentum is worrying. I think we'll improve but he's chancing it at the moment - he doesn't have any credit in the bank and our support can smell a bullshitter a mile off. I think he's a good manager but he needs to prove it and he hasn't really done that at all here yet.
|
|
|
Post by vidigal7 on Sept 19, 2023 8:00:37 GMT
My issue with O'Neil was his idea of football, possession football on the edge of your own 18 yard box hardly inspired hope. I had my own reservations about O Neil before we signed him aswell, it was quite clear his knowledge in the market would be extremely limited, as would his knowledge of the league and the players he was going to come up against. It seemed a really ill thought out appointment to me at the time His football was really entertaining (albeit in small doses partly brought on by injuries to key players) at certain times, and pretty ordinary at other times. He went “back to basics” to get us out of a run of bad form for example when we went to Blackpool and Luton (I think?) to grind out results, that’s shows pragmatism. I’ll defend MON more than most on here, but it’s not actually about him it’s about a manager 46 games in who has shown no signs of bringing is more attractive football, or better results to date (other than a 5 game purple patch). I want AN to succeed, I’m prepared to be patient for him to succeed, but I’m not going to sit here and say I’ve seen anything under him that we wouldn’t have at least seen under MON because I have no evidence to back that up….. For me Neil's preferred set up is 4231,433, his vision is to play a fast paced, attacking football with goals. I actually know a Norwich ST holder of many years, he tells me that Neil's football is a good watch, it's fast and entertaining, it's potent. If you're getting over lines you've got to be setting out to win games and scoring goals. This is my defence of Neil and why I'm prepared to wait for it to come together, backed up with hard evidence he knows how to get over the line. I find it heartening that we have added a boat load of attacking wingers amongst other things. I'm really looking forward to these players settling and doing what we've brought them in to do. This is why I can't draw a final conclusion of him on last season because of the miss jointed mess he inherited that just wasn't set up or have the makeup to play how he visions us playing. It's got to improve and I fully expect it too but not so fast without a preseason and a boat load of new foreign players to bed in. I never got a feeling with O Neil he even had a style or a plan. It's just been on radio Stoke that we have the second best stats in the league for winning the ball back, it's a small thing but it's a start, it shows pressing is definitely a thing in our game
|
|
|
Post by prestwichpotter on Sept 19, 2023 8:55:14 GMT
We’ve just signed 17 players and have Wesley as our sole striker and no cover at left centre back or real physical presence in defence and the club are patting themselves on the back over their recruitment and the fans are waving lyrical about players who have proved very little as yet. I’m not sure we lost a penny on the “not fit for purpose” players though, and Brown and Wilmot were perfect signings for the direction of travel we should be aiming for as a club, one has made us a profit and one would if he were sold tomorrow (as would Laurent and even Baker to be fair). Gayle is the one example still on book of a bad deal in hindsight, although MON never had the opportunity to show us what he had planned for him and Delap medium to long term before getting sacked. I’m happy to show patience towards AN and the process, I also wanted MON to be given at least 6/7 more games as 5 games into a league season is not sufficient to judge anything. I suppose the question is those wanting rid of MON after 5 games last season how much patience do they show towards AN? I agree that the neglect of the defence in our summer recruitment is puzzling. I don't think you ever get everything you need in one window but to neglect that area as much as we did is odd. Is Wesley our sole striker? Is Mmaee not a striker as well? Is not losing a penny on the players the real quiz? How many of them were actually useful for what we needed them to do? Plenty of us thought Gayle looked a bad deal at the time. The recruitment got more and more confused, neglecting key areas like goalkeeper, DM and wing back and signing a succession of poachers and trying to retrofit them into being target men rather than just signing a target man. If it were purely the five games MON was being judged on I'd agree but it came after a spectacularly muddled window and a long spell of poor results and performances the previous season (and a similar second half collapse the season before that). You yourself have said it got stale towards the end, what did you see improving? I think even you were surprised he was so set on playing wing backs for as long as he did? I want to like Neil but he's making it incredibly difficult. I think we've signed some exciting players in some areas but I also worry a bit that, like late Hughes, we might've ignored character as a key factor in what makes a good signing and his incessant opposition-considering tinkering at the expense of picking a team and giving it chance to build some momentum is worrying. I think we'll improve but he's chancing it at the moment - he doesn't have any credit in the bank and our support can smell a bullshitter a mile off. I think he's a good manager but he needs to prove it and he hasn't really done that at all here yet. Regarding goalkeepers, we let Davies go for FFP reasons (same as Danny Baath) so we could bring in (cheaper) bodies elsewhere. He also had some bad luck with keepers, particularly Angus Gunn who is a really good keeper but got injured and we never quite saw the best of him. That was always the juggling act (the internal politics none of us have any idea of). It was going stale in some respects, and playing 3 at the back was becoming a bit predictable (I'd say over half of the division were wedded to that system by the way which led to some pretty attritional games), that said if Clarke had been allowed a run of games at wing back (after his knock, he's been excellent at Ipswich) with Tymon on the opposite side I think we'd have more than competed as the season progressed. Some of the signings didn't work out (annoyingly because of niggly injuries in a number of instances) but if you look at them individually they'd be fairly sought after (Smallbone, Harry Clarke, Harwood-Bellis, Philogene-Bidace, Delap, Jack Clarke, Motondo, Norrington-Davies, Gunn etc.)
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 19, 2023 9:37:48 GMT
I agree that the neglect of the defence in our summer recruitment is puzzling. I don't think you ever get everything you need in one window but to neglect that area as much as we did is odd. Is Wesley our sole striker? Is Mmaee not a striker as well? Is not losing a penny on the players the real quiz? How many of them were actually useful for what we needed them to do? Plenty of us thought Gayle looked a bad deal at the time. The recruitment got more and more confused, neglecting key areas like goalkeeper, DM and wing back and signing a succession of poachers and trying to retrofit them into being target men rather than just signing a target man. If it were purely the five games MON was being judged on I'd agree but it came after a spectacularly muddled window and a long spell of poor results and performances the previous season (and a similar second half collapse the season before that). You yourself have said it got stale towards the end, what did you see improving? I think even you were surprised he was so set on playing wing backs for as long as he did? I want to like Neil but he's making it incredibly difficult. I think we've signed some exciting players in some areas but I also worry a bit that, like late Hughes, we might've ignored character as a key factor in what makes a good signing and his incessant opposition-considering tinkering at the expense of picking a team and giving it chance to build some momentum is worrying. I think we'll improve but he's chancing it at the moment - he doesn't have any credit in the bank and our support can smell a bullshitter a mile off. I think he's a good manager but he needs to prove it and he hasn't really done that at all here yet. Regarding goalkeepers, we let Davies go for FFP reasons (same as Danny Baath) so we could bring in (cheaper) bodies elsewhere. He also had some bad luck with keepers, particularly Angus Gunn who is a really good keeper but got injured and we never quite saw the best of him. That was always the juggling act (the internal politics none of us have any idea of). It was going stale in some respects, and playing 3 at the back was becoming a bit predictable (I'd say over half of the division were wedded to that system by the way which led to some pretty attritional games), that said if Clarke had been allowed a run of games at wing back (after his knock, he's been excellent at Ipswich) with Tymon on the opposite side I think we'd have more than competed as the season progressed. Some of the signings didn't work out (annoyingly because of niggly injuries in a number of instances) but if you look at them individually they'd be fairly sought after (Smallbone, Harry Clarke, Harwood-Bellis, Philogene-Bidace, Delap, Jack Clarke, Motondo, Norrington-Davies, Gunn etc.) He still neglected goalkeeper well after Davies had been allowed to go though and that isn't an area that should be scrimped on. He did well to make for himself a reasonable budget by the standards of the Championship but squandered it on some puzzling areas. Whatever the mileage on how suitable Clarke was, he didn't see fit to properly strengthen at wing back despite being seemingly wedded to that system - if we're knocking Neil (rightly) for not giving us cover at full back it's something that can be levelled just as heavily if not more so at MON. I think the assessment of the loan players is generous. Smallbone looked a better fit for a Neil side than whatever MON's plan for him was. Delap had to carry a lot of pressure on his shoulders because the other options were so sparse - he too wasn't a target man and that still left us short of what we needed. I agree he signed some exciting attacking wide players like JPB, Matondo but that just makes it all the more bizarre that he went out of his way to avoid playing that system towards the end.
|
|
|
Post by thornestein on Sept 19, 2023 9:38:12 GMT
My issue with O'Neil was his idea of football, possession football on the edge of your own 18 yard box hardly inspired hope. I had my own reservations about O Neil before we signed him aswell, it was quite clear his knowledge in the market would be extremely limited, as would his knowledge of the league and the players he was going to come up against. It seemed a really ill thought out appointment to me at the time His football was really entertaining (albeit in small doses partly brought on by injuries to key players) at certain times, and pretty ordinary at other times. He went “back to basics” to get us out of a run of bad form for example when we went to Blackpool and Luton (I think?) to grind out results, that shows pragmatism if you want to look at it positively. I’ll defend MON more than most on here, but it’s not actually about him it’s about a manager 46 games in who has shown no signs of bringing us more attractive football, or better results to date (other than a 5 game purple patch). I want AN to succeed, I’m prepared to be patient for him to succeed, but I’m not going to sit here and say I’ve seen anything under him that we wouldn’t have at least seen under MON because I have no evidence to back that up….. what hard evidence ? , he got someone else’s players promoted twice , but that’s irrelevant as we only judge him for what he’s doing here , and let’s all be honest , he’s doing shite
|
|
|
Post by prestwichpotter on Sept 19, 2023 9:47:10 GMT
Regarding goalkeepers, we let Davies go for FFP reasons (same as Danny Baath) so we could bring in (cheaper) bodies elsewhere. He also had some bad luck with keepers, particularly Angus Gunn who is a really good keeper but got injured and we never quite saw the best of him. That was always the juggling act (the internal politics none of us have any idea of). It was going stale in some respects, and playing 3 at the back was becoming a bit predictable (I'd say over half of the division were wedded to that system by the way which led to some pretty attritional games), that said if Clarke had been allowed a run of games at wing back (after his knock, he's been excellent at Ipswich) with Tymon on the opposite side I think we'd have more than competed as the season progressed. Some of the signings didn't work out (annoyingly because of niggly injuries in a number of instances) but if you look at them individually they'd be fairly sought after (Smallbone, Harry Clarke, Harwood-Bellis, Philogene-Bidace, Delap, Jack Clarke, Motondo, Norrington-Davies, Gunn etc.) He still neglected goalkeeper well after Davies had been allowed to go though and that isn't an area that should be scrimped on. He did well to make for himself a reasonable budget by the standards of the Championship but squandered it on some puzzling areas. Whatever the mileage on how suitable Clarke was, he didn't see fit to properly strengthen at wing back despite being seemingly wedded to that system - if we're knocking Neil (rightly) for not giving us cover at full back it's something that can be levelled just as heavily if not more so at MON.I think the assessment of the loan players is generous. Smallbone looked a better fit for a Neil side than whatever MON's plan for him was. Delap had to carry a lot of pressure on his shoulders because the other options were so sparse - he too wasn't a target man and that still left us short of what we needed. I agree he signed some exciting attacking wide players like JPB, Matondo but that just makes it all the more bizarre that he went out of his way to avoid playing that system towards the end. I'm not suggesting there wasn't gaps in MON's squad for one minute as there was, but he had the FFP juggling act to contend with (like AN in January to be fair) Neil has just been allowed the luxury of 17 players (we tried for more it seems) so a lack of balance is far less forgivable in my opinion. I fear the striker situation will bite us in the arse (Mmaee can hopefully fill the gap once fit but I've seen little to suggest that's his natural position to date) so I hope we can hang on in there until January by picking up enough points in the next few months........
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 19, 2023 10:02:43 GMT
He still neglected goalkeeper well after Davies had been allowed to go though and that isn't an area that should be scrimped on. He did well to make for himself a reasonable budget by the standards of the Championship but squandered it on some puzzling areas. Whatever the mileage on how suitable Clarke was, he didn't see fit to properly strengthen at wing back despite being seemingly wedded to that system - if we're knocking Neil (rightly) for not giving us cover at full back it's something that can be levelled just as heavily if not more so at MON.I think the assessment of the loan players is generous. Smallbone looked a better fit for a Neil side than whatever MON's plan for him was. Delap had to carry a lot of pressure on his shoulders because the other options were so sparse - he too wasn't a target man and that still left us short of what we needed. I agree he signed some exciting attacking wide players like JPB, Matondo but that just makes it all the more bizarre that he went out of his way to avoid playing that system towards the end. I'm not suggesting there wasn't gaps in MON's squad for one minute as there was, but he had the FFP juggling act to contend with (like AN in January to be fair) Neil has just been allowed the luxury of 17 players (we tried for more it seems) so a lack of balance is far less forgivable in my opinion. I fear the striker situation will bite us in the arse (Mmaee can hopefully fill the gap once fit but I've seen little to suggest that's his natural position to date) so I hope we can hang on in there until January by picking up enough points in the next few months........ He did but he was still able to beat a host of clubs to the Gayle signing (which we didn't need) and bring in 9 players on top of the existing squad he had to work with. The FFP stuff removed our advantages in terms of being able to consistently blow other teams away financially but in a league where the play off final was contested by two sides with among the lowest wage bills in the division we still had more than enough to work with (to MON's credit given that he made that possible within the constraints). It doesn't seem a brilliant juggling act to be set on playing with wing backs but to leave us with cover consisting of Tom Sparrow and a lad who ultimately couldn't get a game for Vale.
|
|
|
Post by vidigal7 on Sept 19, 2023 10:04:50 GMT
His football was really entertaining (albeit in small doses partly brought on by injuries to key players) at certain times, and pretty ordinary at other times. He went “back to basics” to get us out of a run of bad form for example when we went to Blackpool and Luton (I think?) to grind out results, that shows pragmatism if you want to look at it positively. I’ll defend MON more than most on here, but it’s not actually about him it’s about a manager 46 games in who has shown no signs of bringing us more attractive football, or better results to date (other than a 5 game purple patch). I want AN to succeed, I’m prepared to be patient for him to succeed, but I’m not going to sit here and say I’ve seen anything under him that we wouldn’t have at least seen under MON because I have no evidence to back that up….. what hard evidence ? , he got someone else’s players promoted twice , but that’s irrelevant as we only judge him for what he’s doing here , and let’s all be honest , he’s doing shite Depends how you look at, I'm a firm believer in horses for courses. For example, I wouldn't judge my lightweight firm ground flyer on a soft ground mudhole. In future it would be nice to employ a manager to suit the style of the players we have at the club, pick a style of football to attach to the club at stick to it, it's logically correct. What we have been doing is just making a pigs ear of appointments, we've gone from one style of football manager appointment straight to a polar opposite, straight to one with no style, then we've rinsed and repeated and now people are scratching their head as to why no-one can come straight in and have an instant impact. All along we've made bad signing after bad signing to really sew the seeds of shit. The answer to this big problem and it is a big problem is quite a simple one and you don't have to be Einstein to see the benefits it brings to the latest manager. Sacking Neil or even thinking about it whilst he's just signed a boat load of players to implement an attractive style is just damned right thick.
|
|
|
Post by thornestein on Sept 19, 2023 10:07:39 GMT
what hard evidence ? , he got someone else’s players promoted twice , but that’s irrelevant as we only judge him for what he’s doing here , and let’s all be honest , he’s doing shite Depends how you look at, I'm a firm believer in horses for courses. For example, I wouldn't judge my lightweight firm ground flyer on a soft ground mudhole. In future it would be nice to employ a manager to suit the style of the players we have at the club, pick a style of football to attach to the club at stick to it, it's logically correct. What we have been doing is just making a pigs ear of appointments, we've gone from one style of football manager appointment straight to a polar opposite, straight to one with no style, then we've rinsed and repeated and now people are scratching their head as to why no-one can come straight in and have an instant impact. All along we've made bad signing after bad signing to really sew the seeds of shit. The answer to this big problem and it is a big problem is quite a simple one and you don't have to be Einstein to see the benefits it brings to the latest manager. Sacking Neil or even thinking about it whilst he's just signed a boat load of players to implement an attractive style is just damned right thick. he needs start winning games or he’ll be gone
|
|
|
Post by prestwichpotter on Sept 19, 2023 10:10:11 GMT
I'm not suggesting there wasn't gaps in MON's squad for one minute as there was, but he had the FFP juggling act to contend with (like AN in January to be fair) Neil has just been allowed the luxury of 17 players (we tried for more it seems) so a lack of balance is far less forgivable in my opinion. I fear the striker situation will bite us in the arse (Mmaee can hopefully fill the gap once fit but I've seen little to suggest that's his natural position to date) so I hope we can hang on in there until January by picking up enough points in the next few months........ He did but he was still able to beat a host of clubs to the Gayle signing (which we didn't need) and bring in 9 players on top of the existing squad he had to work with. The FFP stuff removed our advantages in terms of being able to consistently blow other teams away financially but in a league where the play off final was contested by two sides with among the lowest wage bills in the division we still had more than enough to work with (to MON's credit given that he made that possible within the constraints). It doesn't seem a brilliant juggling act to be set on playing with wing backs but to leave us with cover consisting of Tom Sparrow and a lad who ultimately couldn't get a game for Vale. Sparrow was literally a sticking plaster for a game too much is made of it (same as Thompson at left wing back for a game), the Huddersfield game when he played right wing back should have taken a completely different turn if Baker had scored his penalty and Gayle's goal wasn't wrongly flagged for offside we'd have won comfortably. Bringing Sparrow and Wright-Phillips on at home to Middlesbrough worked as we pulled a goal back. McCarron was a cheap punt, a bit like Delaney and Oakley-Booth. We were making cheap punts for a specific reason by the way not to sound like a broken record.....
|
|
|
Post by vidigal7 on Sept 19, 2023 10:10:41 GMT
Depends how you look at, I'm a firm believer in horses for courses. For example, I wouldn't judge my lightweight firm ground flyer on a soft ground mudhole. In future it would be nice to employ a manager to suit the style of the players we have at the club, pick a style of football to attach to the club at stick to it, it's logically correct. What we have been doing is just making a pigs ear of appointments, we've gone from one style of football manager appointment straight to a polar opposite, straight to one with no style, then we've rinsed and repeated and now people are scratching their head as to why no-one can come straight in and have an instant impact. All along we've made bad signing after bad signing to really sew the seeds of shit. The answer to this big problem and it is a big problem is quite a simple one and you don't have to be Einstein to see the benefits it brings to the latest manager. Sacking Neil or even thinking about it whilst he's just signed a boat load of players to implement an attractive style is just damned right thick. he needs start winning games or he’ll be gone He'll get time no matter how much you kick and scream
|
|
|
Post by gawa on Sept 19, 2023 10:15:07 GMT
He still neglected goalkeeper well after Davies had been allowed to go though and that isn't an area that should be scrimped on. He did well to make for himself a reasonable budget by the standards of the Championship but squandered it on some puzzling areas. Whatever the mileage on how suitable Clarke was, he didn't see fit to properly strengthen at wing back despite being seemingly wedded to that system - if we're knocking Neil (rightly) for not giving us cover at full back it's something that can be levelled just as heavily if not more so at MON.I think the assessment of the loan players is generous. Smallbone looked a better fit for a Neil side than whatever MON's plan for him was. Delap had to carry a lot of pressure on his shoulders because the other options were so sparse - he too wasn't a target man and that still left us short of what we needed. I agree he signed some exciting attacking wide players like JPB, Matondo but that just makes it all the more bizarre that he went out of his way to avoid playing that system towards the end. I'm not suggesting there wasn't gaps in MON's squad for one minute as there was, but he had the FFP juggling act to contend with (like AN in January to be fair) Neil has just been allowed the luxury of 17 players (we tried for more it seems) so a lack of balance is far less forgivable in my opinion. I fear the striker situation will bite us in the arse (Mmaee can hopefully fill the gap once fit but I've seen little to suggest that's his natural position to date) so I hope we can hang on in there until January by picking up enough points in the next few months........ I think another huge difference between the transfer windows was brexit too. In Ricky Martins transfer video he speaks about how the changes to brexit last year made a significant difference to the areas where they could recruit compared to seasons gone by. The reason we weren't able to sign players in the European market was due to the strict criteria being applied which would allow players to get the required work permits. I'm pretty sure Alex Neil has brought in 13 permanent signings now, most of them coming with a fee. MON signed 16 permanent signings to the first team with no more than 5 of those coming with a fee. So I find it very difficult to compare the transfers taking the above into account along with the FFP restrictions.
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 19, 2023 10:32:19 GMT
He did but he was still able to beat a host of clubs to the Gayle signing (which we didn't need) and bring in 9 players on top of the existing squad he had to work with. The FFP stuff removed our advantages in terms of being able to consistently blow other teams away financially but in a league where the play off final was contested by two sides with among the lowest wage bills in the division we still had more than enough to work with (to MON's credit given that he made that possible within the constraints). It doesn't seem a brilliant juggling act to be set on playing with wing backs but to leave us with cover consisting of Tom Sparrow and a lad who ultimately couldn't get a game for Vale. Sparrow was literally a sticking plaster for a game too much is made of it (same as Thompson at left wing back for a game), the Huddersfield game when he played right wing back should have taken a completely different turn if Baker had scored his penalty and Gayle's goal wasn't wrongly flagged for offside we'd have won comfortably. Bringing Sparrow and Wright-Phillips on at home to Middlesbrough worked as we pulled a goal back. McCarron was a cheap punt, a bit like Delaney and Oakley-Booth. We were making cheap punts for a specific reason by the way not to sound like a broken record..... We shouldn't have been in a position where a teenage midfielder needed to be a sticking plaster though? And his longer term solution was Fosu, who also didn't look any cop as a wing back. It's a dangerous game if we're starting to talk about ifs and buts in specific games. You could apply the same logic to some of our defeats this season but I don't think either manager should get that excuse made for them. We were absolutely terrible for nine-tenths of that Boro game but as you say he deserves credit for making the changes that got a result. He can't get credit for that though and then be absolved with ifs and buts from the Huddersfield game. Why are we making 'cheap punts'in absolutely key positions when we're spending a huge chunk of our outlay on a busted flush who we didn't need anyway? It's poor management.
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 19, 2023 10:33:16 GMT
I'm not suggesting there wasn't gaps in MON's squad for one minute as there was, but he had the FFP juggling act to contend with (like AN in January to be fair) Neil has just been allowed the luxury of 17 players (we tried for more it seems) so a lack of balance is far less forgivable in my opinion. I fear the striker situation will bite us in the arse (Mmaee can hopefully fill the gap once fit but I've seen little to suggest that's his natural position to date) so I hope we can hang on in there until January by picking up enough points in the next few months........ I think another huge difference between the transfer windows was brexit too. In Ricky Martins transfer video he speaks about how the changes to brexit last year made a significant difference to the areas where they could recruit compared to seasons gone by. The reason we weren't able to sign players in the European market was due to the strict criteria being applied which would allow players to get the required work permits. I'm pretty sure Alex Neil has brought in 13 permanent signings now, most of them coming with a fee. MON signed 16 permanent signings to the first team with no more than 5 of those coming with a fee. So I find it very difficult to compare the transfers taking the above into account along with the FFP restrictions. How did Swansea manage to get round them to sign Joel Piroe for half the cost of a Sam Surridge? Or Millwall with Flemming?
|
|
|
Post by prestwichpotter on Sept 19, 2023 10:46:12 GMT
Sparrow was literally a sticking plaster for a game too much is made of it (same as Thompson at left wing back for a game), the Huddersfield game when he played right wing back should have taken a completely different turn if Baker had scored his penalty and Gayle's goal wasn't wrongly flagged for offside we'd have won comfortably. Bringing Sparrow and Wright-Phillips on at home to Middlesbrough worked as we pulled a goal back. McCarron was a cheap punt, a bit like Delaney and Oakley-Booth. We were making cheap punts for a specific reason by the way not to sound like a broken record..... We shouldn't have been in a position where a teenage midfielder needed to be a sticking plaster though? And his longer term solution was Fosu, who also didn't look any cop as a wing back. It's a dangerous game if we're starting to talk about ifs and buts in specific games. You could apply the same logic to some of our defeats this season but I don't think either manager should get that excuse made for them. We were absolutely terrible for nine-tenths of that Boro game but as you say he deserves credit for making the changes that got a result. He can't get credit for that though and then be absolved with ifs and buts from the Huddersfield game. Why are we making 'cheap punts'in absolutely key positions when we're spending a huge chunk of our outlay on a busted flush who we didn't need anyway? It's poor management. Fosu was back up to Clarke who was to be our first choice wing back in that system. What position isn't key? We certainly weren't cramming a load of loan signings and freebies in for the fun of it would be my guess even with the Gayle outlay. Everything is ifs and buts, we can debate things all day long and as always I'm happy to do so but if I go back to my original point even putting aside the extra difficulties I believe MON endured I've seen nothing from AN so far to suggest we've moved forward. I'm happy to give him time and am super hopeful that will change with him in charge.........
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 19, 2023 10:57:38 GMT
We shouldn't have been in a position where a teenage midfielder needed to be a sticking plaster though? And his longer term solution was Fosu, who also didn't look any cop as a wing back. It's a dangerous game if we're starting to talk about ifs and buts in specific games. You could apply the same logic to some of our defeats this season but I don't think either manager should get that excuse made for them. We were absolutely terrible for nine-tenths of that Boro game but as you say he deserves credit for making the changes that got a result. He can't get credit for that though and then be absolved with ifs and buts from the Huddersfield game. Why are we making 'cheap punts'in absolutely key positions when we're spending a huge chunk of our outlay on a busted flush who we didn't need anyway? It's poor management. Fosu was back up to Clarke who was to be our first choice wing back in that system. What position isn't key? We certainly weren't cramming a load of loan signings and freebies in for the fun of it would be my guess even with the Gayle outlay. Everything is ifs and buts, we can debate things all day long and as always I'm happy to do so but if I go back to my original point even putting aside the extra difficulties I believe MON endured I've seen nothing from AN so far to suggest we've moved forward. I'm happy to give him time and am super hopeful that will change with him in charge......... That's my point though. Fosu was barely any more of wing back than Sparrow was and was signed in a panic when Clarke got injured. All positions are of course important but I'd venture that wing backs are especially so in a wing back system. The thinking in that last window in particular just seemed incredibly muddled. I don't quite get the urgency to defend MON's every call to the hilt to be honest, he did a good job when he arrived and seems a thoroughly decent chap but had a shelf life like all managers do and don't think there's anything wrong with that. My opinion is that he should after three years have been able to finish higher than 14th in the table given what others in this division achieved but I appreciate not everyone shares that. As discussed, I'm not overly impressed with the Neil job is doing at the moment either.
|
|
|
Post by prestwichpotter on Sept 19, 2023 11:10:43 GMT
Fosu was back up to Clarke who was to be our first choice wing back in that system. What position isn't key? We certainly weren't cramming a load of loan signings and freebies in for the fun of it would be my guess even with the Gayle outlay. Everything is ifs and buts, we can debate things all day long and as always I'm happy to do so but if I go back to my original point even putting aside the extra difficulties I believe MON endured I've seen nothing from AN so far to suggest we've moved forward. I'm happy to give him time and am super hopeful that will change with him in charge......... That's my point though. Fosu was barely any more of wing back than Sparrow was and was signed in a panic when Clarke got injured. All positions are of course important but I'd venture that wing backs are especially so in a wing back system. The thinking in that last window in particular just seemed incredibly muddled. I don't quite get the urgency to defend MON's every call to the hilt to be honest, he did a good job when he arrived and seems a thoroughly decent chap but had a shelf life like all managers do and don't think there's anything wrong with that. My opinion is that he should after three years have been able to finish higher than 14th in the table given what others in this division achieved but I appreciate not everyone shares that. As discussed, I'm not overly impressed with the Neil job is doing at the moment either. I started defending him in this thread against a pretty malicious statement about MON being drunk at training and not being arsed cause he was unwell. And someone who apparently did a worse job than Rowett despite dealing with all the shit that was left by him. There is no "urgency to defend him" I'm simply debating on a forum. But I make no apologies about defending MON against some of the accusations against him as I believe he did a really good job in trying circumstances and not many seem willing to acknowledge that. That's it really, no more no less. I'm certainly not anti-AN, I've said multiple times patience is required and he needs time this season. But time will be against him soon there's no getting away from that. Let's hope the upsurge starts tomorrow...........
|
|
|
Post by gawa on Sept 19, 2023 11:26:10 GMT
I think another huge difference between the transfer windows was brexit too. In Ricky Martins transfer video he speaks about how the changes to brexit last year made a significant difference to the areas where they could recruit compared to seasons gone by. The reason we weren't able to sign players in the European market was due to the strict criteria being applied which would allow players to get the required work permits. I'm pretty sure Alex Neil has brought in 13 permanent signings now, most of them coming with a fee. MON signed 16 permanent signings to the first team with no more than 5 of those coming with a fee. So I find it very difficult to compare the transfers taking the above into account along with the FFP restrictions. How did Swansea manage to get round them to sign Joel Piroe for half the cost of a Sam Surridge? Or Millwall with Flemming? Listen from 6.10 onwards. I'm not sure why Ricky Martin would lie about that. He says about being able to sign up to 4 wildcard signings outside of the UK. Previously to sign those European players they had to get 15 points in a criteria based of players’ international caps, Fifa ranking of club nation, and academy background and domestic appearances. Joel Piroe was signed from PSV with a strong academy and domestic background, from the Dutch league with a high nation ranking and had over 20 youth caps. Flemming similarly came from the Dutch league with an academy background at Ajax. The criteria is explained much better here - theathletic.com/3554783/2022/09/06/brexit-transfers-clubs-work-permit/
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 19, 2023 11:28:25 GMT
How did Swansea manage to get round them to sign Joel Piroe for half the cost of a Sam Surridge? Or Millwall with Flemming? Listen from 6.10 onwards. I'm not sure why Ricky Martin would lie about that. He says about being able to sign up to 4 wildcard signings outside of the UK. Previously to sign those European players they had to get 15 points in a criteria based of players’ international caps, Fifa ranking of club nation, and academy background and domestic appearances. Joel Piroe was signed from PSV with a strong academy and domestic background, from the Dutch league with a high nation ranking and had over 20 youth caps. Flemming similarly came from the Dutch league with an academy background at Ajax. The criteria is explained much better here - theathletic.com/3554783/2022/09/06/brexit-transfers-clubs-work-permit/I feel like you're missing my point rather Gawa. The notion it was impossible for us to make signings from overseas is rather hamstrung by the fact that other Championship clubs, you know, did that? Of course it's been easier for us to do it with the restrictions lifted this summer but it wasn't impossible before, we just chose not to.
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 19, 2023 11:29:59 GMT
That's my point though. Fosu was barely any more of wing back than Sparrow was and was signed in a panic when Clarke got injured. All positions are of course important but I'd venture that wing backs are especially so in a wing back system. The thinking in that last window in particular just seemed incredibly muddled. I don't quite get the urgency to defend MON's every call to the hilt to be honest, he did a good job when he arrived and seems a thoroughly decent chap but had a shelf life like all managers do and don't think there's anything wrong with that. My opinion is that he should after three years have been able to finish higher than 14th in the table given what others in this division achieved but I appreciate not everyone shares that. As discussed, I'm not overly impressed with the Neil job is doing at the moment either. I started defending him in this thread against a pretty malicious statement about MON being drunk at training and not being arsed cause he was unwell. And someone who apparently did a worse job than Rowett despite dealing with all the shit that was left by him. There is no "urgency to defend him" I'm simply debating on a forum. But I make no apologies about defending MON against some of the accusations against him as I believe he did a really good job in trying circumstances and not many seem willing to acknowledge that. That's it really, no more no less. I'm certainly not anti-AN, I've said multiple times patience is required and he needs time this season. But time will be against him soon there's no getting away from that. Let's hope the upsurge starts tomorrow........... The aspersions cast about MON and alcohol were bang out of order, completely agree.
|
|
|
Post by gawa on Sept 19, 2023 11:43:14 GMT
Listen from 6.10 onwards. I'm not sure why Ricky Martin would lie about that. He says about being able to sign up to 4 wildcard signings outside of the UK. Previously to sign those European players they had to get 15 points in a criteria based of players’ international caps, Fifa ranking of club nation, and academy background and domestic appearances. Joel Piroe was signed from PSV with a strong academy and domestic background, from the Dutch league with a high nation ranking and had over 20 youth caps. Flemming similarly came from the Dutch league with an academy background at Ajax. The criteria is explained much better here - theathletic.com/3554783/2022/09/06/brexit-transfers-clubs-work-permit/I feel like you're missing my point rather Gawa. The notion it was impossible for us to make signings from overseas is rather hamstrung by the fact that other Championship clubs, you know, did that? Of course it's been easier for us to do it with the restrictions lifted this summer but it wasn't impossible before, we just chose not to. It certainly wasn't impossible, just much more difficult to do, especially on a low budget. The point im making more is the same as Ricky Martins. That due to the change in the rules and the introduction of wild cards - it's now much easier to sign players in that market.
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 19, 2023 11:46:59 GMT
I feel like you're missing my point rather Gawa. The notion it was impossible for us to make signings from overseas is rather hamstrung by the fact that other Championship clubs, you know, did that? Of course it's been easier for us to do it with the restrictions lifted this summer but it wasn't impossible before, we just chose not to. It certainly wasn't impossible, just much more difficult to do, especially on a low budget. The point im making more is the same as Ricky Martins. That due to the change in the rules and the introduction of wild cards - it's now much easier to sign players in that market. It's a lot easier for sure but it isn't true that we 'weren't able' to do it previously. There was arguably more value to be found there than some of the guff from these shores we signed, even with the restrictions.
|
|
|
Post by gawa on Sept 19, 2023 12:07:25 GMT
It certainly wasn't impossible, just much more difficult to do, especially on a low budget. The point im making more is the same as Ricky Martins. That due to the change in the rules and the introduction of wild cards - it's now much easier to sign players in that market. It's a lot easier for sure but it isn't true that we 'weren't able' to do it previously. There was arguably more value to be found there than some of the guff from these shores we signed, even with the restrictions. It wasn't impossible. But the point I'm making is more about how much easier it is since the brexit rules changed. And that is fact. I think the fact 16 teams signed 2 or more players outside of UK and Ireland this summer compared to 6 last season sort of highlights the difference it made.
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 19, 2023 12:24:30 GMT
It's a lot easier for sure but it isn't true that we 'weren't able' to do it previously. There was arguably more value to be found there than some of the guff from these shores we signed, even with the restrictions. It wasn't impossible. But the point I'm making is more about how much easier it is since the brexit rules changed. And that is fact. I think the fact 16 teams signed 2 or more players outside of UK and Ireland this summer compared to 6 last season sort of highlights the difference it made. It was more that you were suggesting that it was the reason we weren't able to sign from abroad. We could've done if we'd wanted to. It was a question of appetite and scouting nous as much as anything.
|
|
|
Post by idle on Sept 19, 2023 12:54:49 GMT
Is Wesley our sole striker? Is Mmaee not a striker as well? Well, most of us also wanted to keep a path for Lowe and Tezgel to get into the team as well. So signing a bucketload of strikers would also have been wrong. Now that Mmaee and Tezgel is injured, we suddenly look short of CFs. The Brown sale was poorly planned, IMO. We should have replaced him, and not just with Leris, who's more of a winger/wingback. Maybe Haks could play as a CF, but he's more of a winger/AM it seems?
|
|
|
Post by thornestein on Sept 19, 2023 15:10:55 GMT
he needs start winning games or he’ll be gone He'll get time no matter how much you kick and scream he won’t when the fans turn
|
|