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Post by Simon Drainrod on Sept 1, 2023 7:18:37 GMT
I was debating with my lad what the average O'Neil team was and how that compares with now. It's quite a transformation. We came up with:
Davies
Smith
Baath
Chesters
Tyman
Thompson
Allen
Ince
Clucas
McLean
Campbell
Could have had Fletcher up too and Campbell wide.
Was there a more average left back than Tyman? Average as in played more games there rather than wingback?
1. No foreign players
2. No pace or creativity
3. Average age around 29?
4. Players don't suit the system (hence could have been 352)
An amazing Revolution unique in my near 40 years watching Stoke.
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Post by lordb on Sept 1, 2023 7:28:14 GMT
I was debating with my lad what the average O'Neil team was and how that compares with now. It's quite a transformation. We came up with: Davies Smith Baath Chesters Tyman Thompson Allen Ince Clucas McLean Campbell Could have had Fletcher up too and Campbell wide. Was there a more average left back than Tyman? Average as in played more games there rather than wingback? 1. No foreign players 2. No pace or creativity 3. Average age around 29? 4. Players don't suit the system (hence could have been 352) An amazing Revolution unique in my near 40 years watching Stoke. To be fair most of that shit is what O'Neill inherited Unlike AN he was completely hamstrung by FFP what he did was bring through the youth Campbell was persuaded to stay as Jones wasn't using him Souttar, Collins, Bursik, DWP all given their chance and he got a good return from Powell (until last season anyway) |
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Post by nonameface on Sept 1, 2023 7:31:51 GMT
I was debating with my lad what the average O'Neil team was and how that compares with now. It's quite a transformation. We came up with: Davies Smith Baath Chesters Tyman Thompson Allen Ince Clucas McLean Campbell Could have had Fletcher up too and Campbell wide. Was there a more average left back than Tyman? Average as in played more games there rather than wingback? 1. No foreign players 2. No pace or creativity 3. Average age around 29? 4. Players don't suit the system (hence could have been 352) An amazing Revolution unique in my near 40 years watching Stoke. To be fair most of that shit is what O'Neill inherited Unlike AN he was completely hamstrung by FFP what he did was bring through the youth Campbell was persuaded to stay as Jones wasn't using him Souttar, Collins, Bursik, DWP all given their chance and he got a good return from Powell (until last season anyway) O'Neil was a very good manager for us. Kept us up when we looked nailed on for relegation Signed players on low fees and wages -preferring to develop the team. Sorted us out FFP wise because of the above. Neil must be pinching himself how lucky he is to have walked in the club when he did. He needs to deliver significant progress now. |
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Post by apb1 on Sept 1, 2023 7:36:55 GMT
O’Neill got us in the play off places two seasons running before injuries to Campbell and Souttar respectively derailed us. It might not have lasted anyway, and he definitely made some terrible signings but also had to make the best of things he inherited and was better at doing that than Neil was last season. I’m buzzing with our new signings but let’s not be too categorical about respective merits of managers until we’ve actually played a few more games.
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Post by mrcoke on Sept 1, 2023 7:43:57 GMT
To be fair to MON:
He inherited a load of very mediocre players from previous managers.
Players were demotivated by changes in management and too many players on the books. I think MON inherited 45 players spread around the world.
Pandemic. I know this affected everyone but when spirits are down it impacts more.
Injuries, notably Campbell.
Loss of form, notably Clucas who was his best players in MON's first season.
No money to buy quality due to wage bill.
All MON could do was sit and wait for contracts to run down and pick up cheap players to make do.
Nevertheless it was clear by the start of last season he had lost the plot and fresh management was needed.
The transition has been a bit like one of those slow fireworks with a long slow burn, people starting question "Is it lit?". Then a burst of action.
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Post by coldtuesdaynight on Sept 1, 2023 8:04:31 GMT
Nice to see some measured MON analysis. He was clearly brought in to stop us getting relegated while we sorted things out FFP wise for a few seasons, and he accomplished that.
Obviously he’s never going to get a statue, and his style of play seemed to get progressively worse (tbf probably influenced by his better players leaving)… but I was a bit surprised he went back to the NI job.
Unless the lifestyle of international football suits him more, it’s a shame he didn’t get a chance at another club in the division.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 1, 2023 8:06:22 GMT
To be fair most of that shit is what O'Neill inherited Unlike AN he was completely hamstrung by FFP what he did was bring through the youth Campbell was persuaded to stay as Jones wasn't using him Souttar, Collins, Bursik, DWP all given their chance and he got a good return from Powell (until last season anyway) O'Neil was a very good manager for us. Kept us up when we looked nailed on for relegation Signed players on low fees and wages -preferring to develop the team. Sorted us out FFP wise because of the above. Neil must be pinching himself how lucky he is to have walked in the club when he did. He needs to deliver significant progress now. He inherited a squad that was a mess in terms of personnel not really built for any system. MON deserves lots of credit for the work he did lowering the wage bill and developing young players but he was generally rotten in the transfer market even with the decent chunk he freed up for himself to spend. I think ultimately he underachieved when you look at how he got us playing with the shit he inherited and then how much greyer and duller it was with his three at the back dross for much of the remainder of his time after that. |
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Post by jokker on Sept 1, 2023 8:14:13 GMT
I was debating with my lad what the average O'Neil team was and how that compares with now. It's quite a transformation. We came up with: Thompson Allen Ince Clucas McLean (...) 2. No creativity The reason there would appear to be no creativity at that time is that you've elected to not have Nick Powell in the team. When fit, and he was mostly so except in the last year, he brought that into the team. O'Neill rescued him from Jones' bomb squad and Nick became the key player under O'Neill. When he was no longer available to the manager his team faltered greatly. |
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Post by march4 on Sept 1, 2023 8:16:02 GMT
MON was a good manager but AN is a good leader.
That’s a big difference.
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Post by questionable on Sept 1, 2023 8:27:17 GMT
MON was a good manager but AN is a good leader. That’s a big difference. IMO MON was a steady manager at best, looking back the right appointment at the time given our predicament, never a long term solution. AN inherited a very poor squad devoid of any ideas and flair, he’s been backed massively and for the first time in years I’m beginning to sit up and pay attention, but he must stop the 5 at the back. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 1, 2023 8:27:24 GMT
Rip it apart and start again.
He left a shit show.
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Post by professorplump on Sept 1, 2023 8:31:36 GMT
The OP has picked a very weak MON team leaving out Brown, Powell, Souttar and Baker, four players who all did well for him. MON did well for us initially stabilising the ship and it should be remembered that in giving chances to Collins and Souttar, he also generated significant funds for the club, something that AN has benefitted from since. Had MON still been here this summer, it would have been interesting to see how he would have used the budget. I suspect it would have been mostly British players and probably not Pearson since he didn't seem to think he needed a DM.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 1, 2023 8:33:01 GMT
The OP has picked a very weak MON team leaving out Brown, Powell, Souttar and Baker, four players who all did well for him. MON did well for us initially stabilising the ship and it should be remembered that in giving chances to Collins and Souttar, he also generated significant funds for the club, something that AN has benefitted from since. Had MON still been here this summer, it would have been interesting to see how he would have used the budget. I suspect it would have been mostly British players and probably not Pearson since he didn't seem to think he needed a DM. If by ‘interesting’ you mean ‘terrifying’. |
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Post by Caddick988 on Sept 1, 2023 8:33:23 GMT
I thought MON came in and did what we needed him to do, which was save us from relegation. I really wanted him to suceed with his rebuild once he'd got us stable but for whatever reason he couldn't seem to manage it.
I like how straight talking Neil is and I think the set up we've got now with Ricky and Jared seems to be working well. Seems like they've got much more control of the club now and know what needs to be done. Hopefully that translates to points on the league table now!
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Post by maninasuitcase on Sept 1, 2023 8:36:04 GMT
I believe the difference is O' 😉
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Post by onemanbang on Sept 1, 2023 8:37:52 GMT
Im not sure it is a fair comparison either. I think the transfer strategy is largely to do with those above AN and subsequently, there is a larger pool of players to pick from. If you look at AN historically, whilst he has dipped into foreign markets it tends to be a toe dip!
Yes, plaudits should be made to this new approach but it's still very early days and under a completely different scenario. You could make a case that without MON there is no AN trolley dash.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 1, 2023 8:39:50 GMT
Im not sure it is a fair comparison either. I think the transfer strategy is largely to do with those above AN and subsequently, there is a larger pool of players to pick from. If you look at AN historically, whilst he has dipped into foreign markets it tends to be a toe dip! Yes, plaudits should be made to this new approach but it's still very early days and under a completely different scenario. You could make a case that without MON there is no AN trolley dash. Hasn’t AN been instrumental in bringing in Devlin and Martin though? And he’ll have had final say and been involved in the recruitment, nothing will have happened without his approval. |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Sept 1, 2023 8:44:22 GMT
Rip it apart and start again. He left a shit show. No - he inherited a shit show and left us in a way better place than we would have had he not done what he did with the resources he had available. The quality of the squad reflected our dire financial position and what he inherited and it wouldn't have been much better under any manager. If Neil achieves anything for the club he owes a massive thank you to O'Neil for being able to start his time in the Championship rather than League 1. |
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Post by Pugsley on Sept 1, 2023 9:00:43 GMT
There is a reason we have Neil in charge - the previous bloke ultimately didn't deliver after initially showing encouraging signs. Caveat is that he was working under very different circumstances. Little budget, club structured to fail etc etc. He deserves plenty of slack.
Neil has been backed, time to deliver.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Sept 1, 2023 9:03:39 GMT
Michael O’Neill deserves a lot of credit for me for the way he cleared the decks in the times of FFP restraints.It became stale in the end but i’ll always remember him fondly from his time here
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Post by onemanbang on Sept 1, 2023 9:09:34 GMT
Im not sure it is a fair comparison either. I think the transfer strategy is largely to do with those above AN and subsequently, there is a larger pool of players to pick from. If you look at AN historically, whilst he has dipped into foreign markets it tends to be a toe dip! Yes, plaudits should be made to this new approach but it's still very early days and under a completely different scenario. You could make a case that without MON there is no AN trolley dash. Hasn’t AN been instrumental in bringing in Devlin and Martin though? And he’ll have had final say and been involved in the recruitment, nothing will have happened without his approval. Maybe, there was obviously a good link with Ricky Martin but I would question Jared being anything other than a leading candidate who had applied for the role. I guess only they will know. |
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Post by theonlooker on Sept 1, 2023 9:10:06 GMT
Michael O’Neill deserves a lot of credit for me for the way he cleared the decks in the times of FFP restraints.It became stale in the end but i’ll always remember him fondly from his time here Well said. |
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Post by Simon Drainrod on Sept 1, 2023 9:10:34 GMT
I actually agree with the points made about MON, and didn't intend to knock him. I'm just making a point about the transformation that has happened in a year.
Absolutely forgot about Souttar, Brown and Powell too. As mentioned, we were thinking about the average team (as in who played most often) rather than those who were most average. So a revised team would be:
Davies
Smith
Souttar
Baath
Tyman
Allen
Clucas
Brown
Powell
Campbell
Vokes
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Post by Goonie on Sept 1, 2023 9:12:05 GMT
Two different managers operating under two different financial parameters but for me the big difference is how we set up on the pitch.
MON's teams were easily predicted by the opposition and often easily nullified.
AN is planning to be the opposite and seems to be choosing players who can play in multiple positions and formations.
I sincerely hope that this pays off because it is a bold statement of intent. AN's leadership and tactical acumen will be tested as he juggles a large and talented squad in a potentially 50+ games a season.
Without MON we'd probably be in division three.
Overall I'd say MON was black and white while AN is technicolour
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 1, 2023 9:13:10 GMT
Hasn’t AN been instrumental in bringing in Devlin and Martin though? And he’ll have had final say and been involved in the recruitment, nothing will have happened without his approval. Maybe, there was obviously a good link with Ricky Martin but I would question Jared being anything other than a leading candidate who had applied for the role. I guess only they will know. I think we’re still a club where the manager makes the key decisions and he’d have known all about JD. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 1, 2023 9:14:15 GMT
Rip it apart and start again. He left a shit show. No - he inherited a shit show and left us in a way better place than we would have had he not done what he did with the resources he had available. The quality of the squad reflected our dire financial position and what he inherited and it wouldn't have been much better under any manager. If Neil achieves anything for the club he owes a massive thank you to O'Neil for being able to start his time in the Championship rather than League 1. No, he left a shit show that needed to be ripped apart and started again. He left us in a terrible position that has then seen the complete overhaul we’ve seen. How is needing to sign 12-15 players leaving us in a good position? 😂 |
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Post by prestwichpotter on Sept 1, 2023 9:15:27 GMT
Whoever was in charge this summer was going to mean a massive overhaul due to the contract situation and the amount of loan players we had last season......
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Post by chiswickpotter on Sept 1, 2023 9:20:38 GMT
No - he inherited a shit show and left us in a way better place than we would have had he not done what he did with the resources he had available. The quality of the squad reflected our dire financial position and what he inherited and it wouldn't have been much better under any manager. If Neil achieves anything for the club he owes a massive thank you to O'Neil for being able to start his time in the Championship rather than League 1. No, he left a shit show that needed to be ripped apart and started again. He left us in a terrible position that has then seen the complete overhaul we’ve seen. How is needing to sign 12-15 players leaving us in a good position? 😂 Exactly the opposite conclusion, a lot of signings this summer was always the plan.. His job was to get us to this season, when we knew we would be on a better FFP footing, in the Championship with the ability to restart. He did that by clearing a lot of the players out on long contracts and using loans, young players and the staff he had. He made mistakes for sure but he stabilised the club and created the platform Neil is now exploiting. |
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Post by onemanbang on Sept 1, 2023 9:28:26 GMT
Maybe, there was obviously a good link with Ricky Martin but I would question Jared being anything other than a leading candidate who had applied for the role. I guess only they will know. I think we’re still a club where the manager makes the key decisions and he’d have known all about JD. I agree with that, I 100% believe the manager has the ultimate say. With that said I don't think AN went up to John Coates and identified Jared and said that's the guy he wanted. I think it was mentioned in an RM interview that they went out to recruiters for the role. I'm not dismissing any of the work that the current team have done. I just think it's hard to identify AN as the sole reason for the new transfer policy and make comparisons between the two squads. They both fished in very different ponds under very different circumstances. |
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Post by mickstupp on Sept 1, 2023 9:28:48 GMT
MON’s best team would have looked something like:
Davies
Smith
Collins
Souttar
Fox
Allen
Clucas
Powell
McLean
Fletcher
Campbell
Decent, top 10 ish championship side. The biggest issue he had was injuries to key players, and also a bizarre blind spot with goalkeepers which ultimately was a key reason why he lost his job.
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