When do you write a youngster off?

[Trouserdog]

Looking at the squad, we have a number of young players who have either come through our academy or been signed as young players. Very few of them make it into the first team by the age of 21, so at what point do you write them off and get whatever you can for them?

Tom Edwards at 24 is one I think we should definitely cut ties with. He did look very promising when he was 18 or 19, but seems to be a classic case of 'too much, too soon'. I can't see him having a career above League One level now, and I don't think he's good enough even as a back-up for us.

Connor Taylor is also being written off by quite a few people on here, but at 21 I still think there's more to come from him, and to me, he looks to be in a similar place that Harry Souttar was at his age. That's not to say he'll develop the same way that Souttar did, but I don't see what good can come from flogging him for peanuts now. The lad had a very promising loan spell in League Two and surely the logical step is now to see how he does in League One for a season. That's exactly what we did with Souttar, and he came back an absolute beast. Taylor is a bit cumbersome, but he's also shown glimpses of ability.

DWP is probably a bit behind Taylor in that he hasn't really done anything on loan to suggest he'll make it, but there's definitely something there- he's another who needs the right loan before we make a decision on him.

Basically, we need to make sure we're not going to regret turning away a potential star, or even just a useful first-teamer, because they don't look quite ready at 21 (Ben Brereton Diaz, anyone?) There's a difference between those players who have shown a bit of something at that age (Taylor, DWP) and the ones who haven't (McCarron for example). Between 21 and 23 is a crucial time for a player, and we should be loaning players out between these ages rather than cutting ties with them if there's a sniff of potential there.

[Ron]

Jul 26, 2023 9:41:24 GMT Trouserdog said:

Looking at the squad, we have a number of young players who have either come through our academy or been signed as young players. Very few of them make it into the first team by the age of 21, so at what point do you write them off and get whatever you can for them?

Tom Edwards at 24 is one I think we should definitely cut ties with. He did look very promising when he was 18 or 19, but seems to be a classic case of 'too much, too soon'. I can't see him having a career above League One level now, and I don't think he's good enough even as a back-up for us.

Connor Taylor is also being written off by quite a few people on here, but at 21 I still think there's more to come from him, and to me, he looks to be in a similar place that Harry Souttar was at his age. That's not to say he'll develop the same way that Souttar did, but I don't see what good can come from flogging him for peanuts now. The lad had a very promising loan spell in League Two and surely the logical step is now to see how he does in League One for a season. That's exactly what we did with Souttar, and he came back an absolute beast. Taylor is a bit cumbersome, but he's also shown glimpses of ability.

DWP is probably a bit behind Taylor in that he hasn't really done anything on loan to suggest he'll make it, but there's definitely something there- he's another who needs the right loan before we make a decision on him.

Basically, we need to make sure we're not going to regret turning away a potential star, or even just a useful first-teamer, because they don't look quite ready at 21 (Ben Brereton Diaz, anyone?) There's a difference between those players who have shown a bit of something at that age (Taylor, DWP) and the ones who haven't (McCarron for example). Between 21 and 23 is a crucial time for a player, and we should be loaning players out between these ages rather than cutting ties with them if there's a sniff of potential there.

sometimes kids have poor loan spell- indeeed I recall one harry kane having a dud one at Leicester I think. Think Taylor will grow and have a career as a regular starter - at what level remains to be seen. He needs polish. DWP has something - but needs a loan where he plays - he hardly kicked a ball at Northampton. Edwards could go back to the us and have a decent MLS career.

[Clem Fandango]

Jul 26, 2023 9:41:24 GMT Trouserdog said:

Looking at the squad, we have a number of young players who have either come through our academy or been signed as young players. Very few of them make it into the first team by the age of 21, so at what point do you write them off and get whatever you can for them?

Tom Edwards at 24 is one I think we should definitely cut ties with. He did look very promising when he was 18 or 19, but seems to be a classic case of 'too much, too soon'. I can't see him having a career above League One level now, and I don't think he's good enough even as a back-up for us.

Connor Taylor is also being written off by quite a few people on here, but at 21 I still think there's more to come from him, and to me, he looks to be in a similar place that Harry Souttar was at his age. That's not to say he'll develop the same way that Souttar did, but I don't see what good can come from flogging him for peanuts now. The lad had a very promising loan spell in League Two and surely the logical step is now to see how he does in League One for a season. That's exactly what we did with Souttar, and he came back an absolute beast. Taylor is a bit cumbersome, but he's also shown glimpses of ability.

DWP is probably a bit behind Taylor in that he hasn't really done anything on loan to suggest he'll make it, but there's definitely something there- he's another who needs the right loan before we make a decision on him.

Basically, we need to make sure we're not going to regret turning away a potential star, or even just a useful first-teamer, because they don't look quite ready at 21 (Ben Brereton Diaz, anyone?) There's a difference between those players who have shown a bit of something at that age (Taylor, DWP) and the ones who haven't (McCarron for example). Between 21 and 23 is a crucial time for a player, and we should be loaning players out between these ages rather than cutting ties with them if there's a sniff of potential there.

Good post mate. I think I'd read a number of years ago that Germany took the approach of treating players as 23 and under as being under development. I can't remember the source of the article but it seemed logical as people develop at different rates and there are plenty of examples of players that developed later in their careers and 23 sounded like a good age to make that judgement.

Personally I would loan Taylor and DWP out if there is interest and see what happens like you said Taylor could go the way of Souttar.

[Silkystoke]

Normally after there first touch…!!!! But that’s the oatcake..!!!

[GeneralFaye]

Unfortunately, there's no specific answer for this, hence why so many players go on to make it elsewhere.

I always use Harry Kane as the prime example, I thought he was utter shit before he suddenly broke through at Spurs.

As for our current crop, I've never really rated Taylor or put him in the same class as Souttar so I would probably move him on if we bring in 2 cb's.

[RF10]

I think players as soon as they are involved in and around the first team now are judged probably too harshly by the majority. If they aren't instantly firing or go through are difficult spell they are regarded as not good enough irrespective of their age.

I think the reason for this is the media and the publicity (quite rightly) for the star young players. People then expect if a young player at your own club isn't on the same ability as the first team he never will be.

It seems as the years go on the pressure on young kids, especially British players, as heightened.

The biggest talents we have which are getting spoken about are Tezgel and Griffiths, I really hope these break through and turn out the be the prospects we hope however the handling on such players is vital.

I know Lewis Macari handling at the club while MON was here was extremely poor and some bad decisions were made which affected his progress and confidence.

[andylgr]

Jul 26, 2023 9:48:38 GMT Silkystoke said:

Normally after there first touch…!!!! But that’s the oatcake..!!!

Beat me to it 🤣

[JoeinOz]

Thing is a player can do well at a club and be crap elsewhere. At a much higher level Salah and Debruyne both had to move around to get a club that suited them. Might be a Chelsea thing! I now they were older than the youngsters you refer to but the same principle applies. For whatever reason (and sometimes the reasons don't matter) a player, any age, is good with a club but crap at another.

[johnnysoul60]

I think there are a few factors, Edwards looked outstanding at 18, but lost his way and it seems so hard to get it back.

I also think having a manager who believes in you is vital,I get no indication that Neil rates Taylor or DWP in the way MON did and that suggests both need a move. Taylor perhaps needed a loan last season.

We do seem to have a few real talents at the younger end 17-18 now.

Last night is the first time I have seen Sol Sidebe live and he really impressed me, confident, dealt with the physical side easily and when he got the ball always wanted to do something positive with it.

Tezegel Lowe and Griffiths also seem talented and I like Macari although again not sure Neil rates him if he is bringing in the lad from Colchester.

I just hope Neil is the type of manager to give young players chances. It can add a dimension to a side and lift the fans.

[foxysgloves]

Jul 26, 2023 9:41:24 GMT Trouserdog said:

Looking at the squad, we have a number of young players who have either come through our academy or been signed as young players. Very few of them make it into the first team by the age of 21, so at what point do you write them off and get whatever you can for them?

Tom Edwards at 24 is one I think we should definitely cut ties with. He did look very promising when he was 18 or 19, but seems to be a classic case of 'too much, too soon'. I can't see him having a career above League One level now, and I don't think he's good enough even as a back-up for us.

Connor Taylor is also being written off by quite a few people on here, but at 21 I still think there's more to come from him, and to me, he looks to be in a similar place that Harry Souttar was at his age. That's not to say he'll develop the same way that Souttar did, but I don't see what good can come from flogging him for peanuts now. The lad had a very promising loan spell in League Two and surely the logical step is now to see how he does in League One for a season. That's exactly what we did with Souttar, and he came back an absolute beast. Taylor is a bit cumbersome, but he's also shown glimpses of ability.

DWP is probably a bit behind Taylor in that he hasn't really done anything on loan to suggest he'll make it, but there's definitely something there- he's another who needs the right loan before we make a decision on him.

Basically, we need to make sure we're not going to regret turning away a potential star, or even just a useful first-teamer, because they don't look quite ready at 21 (Ben Brereton Diaz, anyone?) There's a difference between those players who have shown a bit of something at that age (Taylor, DWP) and the ones who haven't (McCarron for example). Between 21 and 23 is a crucial time for a player, and we should be loaning players out between these ages rather than cutting ties with them if there's a sniff of potential there.

I think in general 22/23 is when you start to see their true level.

That said it’s more complicated with the likes of Onomah when they spend so much time at a top level as a youngster but their trajectory is downward.

I still think Taylor could come good but he needs a season or two in the lower leagues. Edwards, for whatever reason, just seems to have lost the edge he had and is destined for the lower leagues.

DWP is another enigma who maybe suffers due to his stature. I can see him doing well in the lower leagues but equally he could get his legs kicked off by the agricultural defenders.

[Bojan Mackey]

Edwards has blown it I think, Taylor I think will go the way of Ryan Sweeney who we all expected to have a decent career but he’s never really pushed on, same for Wright-Phillips.

The next generation we have though, Lowe, Tezgel & Sidibe etc. so far all look to be potentially lethal players, I think nurturing this particular group is where our focus should now be in terms of younger talent.

[cvillestokie]

If Edwards can’t play a meaningful role at this stage, he needs to go.

Taylor either needs to be used as a squad player or sent on loan to league one. I think he’s Championship-ish level. He needs games and experience. At 21, I don’t see the point in selling.

DWP needs to go to any level that will give him a full season, even if that’s just the conference. He could still make it but he won’t make it as 6th choice.

I think there will always be regrets of turning away stars of the future. It happens. My approach would be to loan players you don’t use, use them in preseason and assess. Repeat that twice more and after the third loan spell, get rid.

[spitthedog]

Jul 26, 2023 10:02:58 GMT JoeinOz said:

Thing is a player can do well at a club and be crap elsewhere. At a much higher level Salah and Debruyne both had to move around to get a club that suited them. Might be a Chelsea thing! I now they were older than the youngsters you refer to but the same principle applies. For whatever reason (and sometimes the reasons don't matter) a player, any age, is good with a club but crap at another.

Very true, footballers are not robots, different environments and contexts can bring the best or worst out of players and there are also fine margins in football. Its not all in the feet, it's in the mind too.

[wakefieldstokie]

A day after their 21st

[pavel]

Jul 26, 2023 9:41:24 GMT Trouserdog said:

Looking at the squad, we have a number of young players who have either come through our academy or been signed as young players. Very few of them make it into the first team by the age of 21, so at what point do you write them off and get whatever you can for them?

Tom Edwards at 24 is one I think we should definitely cut ties with. He did look very promising when he was 18 or 19, but seems to be a classic case of 'too much, too soon'. I can't see him having a career above League One level now, and I don't think he's good enough even as a back-up for us.

Connor Taylor is also being written off by quite a few people on here, but at 21 I still think there's more to come from him, and to me, he looks to be in a similar place that Harry Souttar was at his age. That's not to say he'll develop the same way that Souttar did, but I don't see what good can come from flogging him for peanuts now. The lad had a very promising loan spell in League Two and surely the logical step is now to see how he does in League One for a season. That's exactly what we did with Souttar, and he came back an absolute beast. Taylor is a bit cumbersome, but he's also shown glimpses of ability.

DWP is probably a bit behind Taylor in that he hasn't really done anything on loan to suggest he'll make it, but there's definitely something there- he's another who needs the right loan before we make a decision on him.

Basically, we need to make sure we're not going to regret turning away a potential star, or even just a useful first-teamer, because they don't look quite ready at 21 (Ben Brereton Diaz, anyone?) There's a difference between those players who have shown a bit of something at that age (Taylor, DWP) and the ones who haven't (McCarron for example). Between 21 and 23 is a crucial time for a player, and we should be loaning players out between these ages rather than cutting ties with them if there's a sniff of potential there.

It’s a difficult one to answer but I think you’re right about 21-23?being crucial, after that I think we can assume they are not good enough or have gone stale, which often ends up the same. I think Edwards has regressed and needs moving on, Taylor is a difficult one, there’s something there but he’s a bit cumbersome and passing and composure is poor, loan to league 1 would be ideal. The new crop coming through look very good but are very young and injuries can destroy a career at this stage, I hope Tezgel’s isn’t too serious.

The reality is though that clubs, for all their stats, metrics and knowledge often get it wrong, in the end it’s mostly up to the player to prove the doubters wrong.

[skip]

Another crucial factor is where the team is and what the short to medium term plan is. If Stoke want to go back up, they need more players on the cusp of being useful for a promotion push. If we had have been relegated to League One, perhaps some of them would have been integrated into the side by now. It's not just 'are they good enough', which is virtually unquantifiable out of the context of the plans set out by the club and passed down to the manager, but 'are they good enough for what we are trying to achieve'.

[lordb]

Jul 26, 2023 9:41:24 GMT Trouserdog said:

Looking at the squad, we have a number of young players who have either come through our academy or been signed as young players. Very few of them make it into the first team by the age of 21, so at what point do you write them off and get whatever you can for them?

Tom Edwards at 24 is one I think we should definitely cut ties with. He did look very promising when he was 18 or 19, but seems to be a classic case of 'too much, too soon'. I can't see him having a career above League One level now, and I don't think he's good enough even as a back-up for us.

Connor Taylor is also being written off by quite a few people on here, but at 21 I still think there's more to come from him, and to me, he looks to be in a similar place that Harry Souttar was at his age. That's not to say he'll develop the same way that Souttar did, but I don't see what good can come from flogging him for peanuts now. The lad had a very promising loan spell in League Two and surely the logical step is now to see how he does in League One for a season. That's exactly what we did with Souttar, and he came back an absolute beast. Taylor is a bit cumbersome, but he's also shown glimpses of ability.

DWP is probably a bit behind Taylor in that he hasn't really done anything on loan to suggest he'll make it, but there's definitely something there- he's another who needs the right loan before we make a decision on him.

Basically, we need to make sure we're not going to regret turning away a potential star, or even just a useful first-teamer, because they don't look quite ready at 21 (Ben Brereton Diaz, anyone?) There's a difference between those players who have shown a bit of something at that age (Taylor, DWP) and the ones who haven't (McCarron for example). Between 21 and 23 is a crucial time for a player, and we should be loaning players out between these ages rather than cutting ties with them if there's a sniff of potential there.

Agree
Would add that CB's and keepers get better later

[BlurtonRed]

As a club it would be brilliant if we thought outside the box(well our box) and linked up with a lower league German club and sent a few there. Germany is an excellent place for young players too progress.


I thought Sidibe was excellent last night. He didn't look out of place at all. Lowe looks raw, but he's a unit and looks like he's got something about him. They need decent loans. Please don't keep sending them too places like Accrington and Solihull Motors

[dirtygary69]

Regarding DWP more so, the problem with loans for that type of player are so difficult. He went to Northampton in League Two, which you'd imagine he'd be up to quality-wise, but it's the physical and mental game at that level. Having some seasoned full back marking you, is different than coming up against another young lad at Under-21 level. 

Taylor looks to at least have the size to make a go of it somewhere, I'm not sure that will be at Championship level though.

I think any player who is going to be kept on, needs to show "something" by the age of 20/21, depending on how long they've been here. If you look at the likes of Tezgel, who's 17/18 and quite obviously got a lot of talent, then I'd suggest he should be flying by 20/21 if he carries on the way he is. He might be the outlier and a generational talent, but I don't see a lot in the others that makes me think they are going to make it.

Coates was apparently quite highly rated, but we let him go and he's now at Chester in the Conference North. He might make his way back up the leagues as he is still only young, but you can't hold on to them all just in case. Sometimes they need to take another route.

[Deleted]

I wouldn't write Taylor off but I would sell him. He's more suited to a side that defend deep than one trying to play a high line.

DWP I think needs to go also. He's way down the pecking order here now and needs to be playing regular football at his age. For the lad's sake I would sell him for a small fee or release him.

There aren't many over the years who we've released that have gone on to great things.

[Deleted]

I would let connor taylor go , because I think he is too slow . Seems to fit in nicely at Bristol Rovers , so let him go there for a modest fee and a modest percentage of any sell on. He may well surprise us and do well there.

Players with pace ...Ty , brown , tymon , chiquino , hoever , maritimo kid , colchester kid ...you are tempted to keep the faith , if they can show they are improving .

tymon , brown , ty really need to come good this season as they are not that young

tezgel , lowe , griffiths all have real promise

They all deserve a chance , unless they just lack pace and aren't up too speed .

I know I am asking ( begging for it !) for someone to start listing good players , who are not that quick but the championship is very athletic now .
Its really 22 athletes having a game of football
Against the better teams , there are enough footballing problems to deal with , without having to worry about whether your players are quick enough and athletic enough .

[skemstokie]

Jul 26, 2023 9:41:24 GMT Trouserdog said:

Looking at the squad, we have a number of young players who have either come through our academy or been signed as young players. Very few of them make it into the first team by the age of 21, so at what point do you write them off and get whatever you can for them?

Tom Edwards at 24 is one I think we should definitely cut ties with. He did look very promising when he was 18 or 19, but seems to be a classic case of 'too much, too soon'. I can't see him having a career above League One level now, and I don't think he's good enough even as a back-up for us.

Connor Taylor is also being written off by quite a few people on here, but at 21 I still think there's more to come from him, and to me, he looks to be in a similar place that Harry Souttar was at his age. That's not to say he'll develop the same way that Souttar did, but I don't see what good can come from flogging him for peanuts now. The lad had a very promising loan spell in League Two and surely the logical step is now to see how he does in League One for a season. That's exactly what we did with Souttar, and he came back an absolute beast. Taylor is a bit cumbersome, but he's also shown glimpses of ability.

DWP is probably a bit behind Taylor in that he hasn't really done anything on loan to suggest he'll make it, but there's definitely something there- he's another who needs the right loan before we make a decision on him.

Basically, we need to make sure we're not going to regret turning away a potential star, or even just a useful first-teamer, because they don't look quite ready at 21 (Ben Brereton Diaz, anyone?) There's a difference between those players who have shown a bit of something at that age (Taylor, DWP) and the ones who haven't (McCarron for example). Between 21 and 23 is a crucial time for a player, and we should be loaning players out between these ages rather than cutting ties with them if there's a sniff of potential there.

Like Ben Brereton Diaz,

[dutchstokie]

Ollie Shenton was another......personally I though he was a good player, and showed a lot of potential, but was he really given the chance.....?

From what I can recall he was only given a couple of minutes in a game when we were already losing

Wheres he now....?

[svengaliinplatforms]

Jul 26, 2023 12:33:10 GMT dutchstokie said:

Ollie Shenton was another......personally I though he was a good player, and showed a lot of potential, but was he really given the chance.....?

From what I can recall he was only given a couple of minutes in a game when we were already losing

Wheres he now....?

Playing National League North (Tier 6) for Chorley.

He's a good example - we saw enough in him, to give him a First Team sniff in the Premier League.

Then he couldn't get anything at all, in the Championship, League One etc? Odd. He's largely played Non-League football since us.

[Gods]

I wrote off Steve Bould (Bambi on ice) and Lee Chapman (an absolute carthorse of a player)

[andystokey]

I took my new born son down the rec to give his mum a bit of a break from the breast feeding.
He was fucking useless, outfield and in goal. Since then I never bothered.

You can usually tell straight away.

[march4]

This is a thought provoking thread.

It is hard to see the potential in a young player.

I don’t think many have come through to the first team at SCFC and then failed to progress before doing well elsewhere.

We’ve had plenty leave at younger ages and then be a big deal at other clubs but not players who got as far as the first team.

That suggests that DWP, Taylor, McCarron and Edwards are not going to make it.

[Deleted]

Jul 26, 2023 12:33:10 GMT dutchstokie said:

Ollie Shenton was another......personally I though he was a good player, and showed a lot of potential, but was he really given the chance.....?

From what I can recall he was only given a couple of minutes in a game when we were already losing

Wheres he now....?

His was an example of external factors too, the passing of a family member. You could say the same for Bursik. So many factors to consider within and outside of the game.

[wilcopotter]

Using this message board as my source, I would say within 10 minutes of making their debut👍

[Deleted]

Generally it’s just whether a player makes it at Stoke or makes it in general. The environment has to fit and work - some will be poor here and thrive elsewhere. I’d love to say that some would be poor elsewhere and thrive here but there are few examples of that recently.

What we can’t do is stagnate an individual’s development for the sake of having them around. That’s why the Taylor chat etc should be a permanent move, because he’ll be a player somewhere but not here.

Would argue that Verlinden would’ve been at a higher level were it not for a) injuries and b) the reticence in which we used him.

Some players bounce back from being poor here, others downspiral. It’s a tough one to measure, but I think as fans what we need to remember is that these are human beings and this is their life, their career. Getting on their backs won’t help, especially at a young age.