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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 26, 2023 13:01:01 GMT
Ollie Shenton was another......personally I though he was a good player, and showed a lot of potential, but was he really given the chance.....? From what I can recall he was only given a couple of minutes in a game when we were already losing Wheres he now....? Chorley. They train at Bacup indoors during the winter where one of my lads plays so see him quite often. Don't think he's even a nailed on starter for them either......
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Post by dutchstokie on Jul 26, 2023 13:01:39 GMT
Ollie Shenton was another......personally I though he was a good player, and showed a lot of potential, but was he really given the chance.....? From what I can recall he was only given a couple of minutes in a game when we were already losing Wheres he now....? His was an example of external factors too, the passing of a family member. You could say the same for Bursik. So many factors to consider within and outside of the game. Aaahhh right...honestly wasnt aware of that...... you never know whats going on half the time do you....?
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Post by marylandstoke on Jul 26, 2023 13:05:29 GMT
As a club it would be brilliant if we thought outside the box(well our box) and linked up with a lower league German club and sent a few there. Germany is an excellent place for young players too progress. I thought Sidibe was excellent last night. He didn't look out of place at all. Lowe looks raw, but he's a unit and looks like he's got something about him. They need decent loans. Please don't keep sending them too places like Accrington and Solihull Motors Been there. Did it. Didn’t seem to work.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2023 13:08:37 GMT
As a club it would be brilliant if we thought outside the box(well our box) and linked up with a lower league German club and sent a few there. Germany is an excellent place for young players too progress. I thought Sidibe was excellent last night. He didn't look out of place at all. Lowe looks raw, but he's a unit and looks like he's got something about him. They need decent loans. Please don't keep sending them too places like Accrington and Solihull Motors Been there. Did it. Didn’t seem to work. St Pauli was bizarre tbf. The unofficial brexit capital of the UK partnered with the most left wing German club. A weird mismatch from day 1.
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Post by owdestokie2 on Jul 26, 2023 13:13:03 GMT
Looking at the squad, we have a number of young players who have either come through our academy or been signed as young players. Very few of them make it into the first team by the age of 21, so at what point do you write them off and get whatever you can for them? Tom Edwards at 24 is one I think we should definitely cut ties with. He did look very promising when he was 18 or 19, but seems to be a classic case of 'too much, too soon'. I can't see him having a career above League One level now, and I don't think he's good enough even as a back-up for us. Connor Taylor is also being written off by quite a few people on here, but at 21 I still think there's more to come from him, and to me, he looks to be in a similar place that Harry Souttar was at his age. That's not to say he'll develop the same way that Souttar did, but I don't see what good can come from flogging him for peanuts now. The lad had a very promising loan spell in League Two and surely the logical step is now to see how he does in League One for a season. That's exactly what we did with Souttar, and he came back an absolute beast. Taylor is a bit cumbersome, but he's also shown glimpses of ability. DWP is probably a bit behind Taylor in that he hasn't really done anything on loan to suggest he'll make it, but there's definitely something there- he's another who needs the right loan before we make a decision on him. Basically, we need to make sure we're not going to regret turning away a potential star, or even just a useful first-teamer, because they don't look quite ready at 21 (Ben Brereton Diaz, anyone?) There's a difference between those players who have shown a bit of something at that age (Taylor, DWP) and the ones who haven't (McCarron for example). Between 21 and 23 is a crucial time for a player, and we should be loaning players out between these ages rather than cutting ties with them if there's a sniff of potential there. An interesting and thoughtful post. Year on year, season on season supporters clamour for the introduction of youngsters (remember Verlinden as an example) but unless you’re a Rooney or similar, youngsters have to be carefully nurtured to progress to a point where sensible and realistic judgements can be made. Obviously their individual footballing ability has to be progressed but there’s significant physical and mental considerations as well. Other considerations could include for example; 1. Are they being introduced into a side playing well with good characters in it to cover for mistakes and support them or alternatively; 2. Are they being introduced into a side playing poorly and who are under critical scrutiny from supporters? It’s a bit of minefield
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Post by marylandstoke on Jul 26, 2023 13:16:25 GMT
Been there. Did it. Didn’t seem to work. St Pauli was bizarre tbf. The unofficial brexit capital of the UK partnered with the most left wing German club. A weird mismatch from day 1. Don’t forget the stella link with Orlando too. Around the same time if memory serves.
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Post by danthestokie on Jul 26, 2023 13:17:39 GMT
Dare I even say the phrase Deploy Ngoy...
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Post by wuzza on Jul 26, 2023 13:22:59 GMT
I come from a generation that listened to the likes of Stevie Bould and Lee Chapman being ‘written off’ from the terraces so perhaps things aren’t so much different from the modern social media kangaroo courts. Young players who have made it as far as the fringes of 1st team football should be treated with a deal of patience and respect - don’t jump to conclusions on the basis of a few performances .
Edit - just seen Gods’ post on this very subject. Sorry to have repeated but the points worth making.
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Post by SamB_SCFC on Jul 26, 2023 13:59:13 GMT
It's definitely a case by case basis, but I think in general 'young' ends at 23 when you're talking about footballers. If you haven't shown any strong signs that you're going to make it at your club's level by that age, generally it's unlikely that it's going to happen. I'd say 23-30 are a player's prime years these days.
In the examples of Taylor and DWP, clearly they need another loan. I've seen enough from Taylor to say there's enough potential there to be worth persevering with, but there's also still a few too many issues for him to be a first team regular for us this season. And a season mostly on the bench like he had last season won't help him at all. He needs a League One loan. In hindsight that's what should have happened last season but we took the chance on him that he was ready for The Championship and sadly he wasn't quite ready.
DWP I see less potential in him and he doesn't appear to have done much on loan, unlike Taylor who impressed at Bristol Rovers. But he definitely deserves another loan to see if he can make something happen and he's still young enough for things to suddenly click.
Edwards definitely needs cutting loose. 24 isn't that young at all, there have been attitude problems in the past and he hasn't impressed in pre season. I think it's unlikely we'll regret letting him go at this stage.
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Post by J-Roar on Jul 26, 2023 14:11:50 GMT
I come from a generation that listened to the likes of Stevie Bould and Lee Chapman being ‘written off’ from the terraces so perhaps things aren’t so much different from the modern social media kangaroo courts. Young players who have made it as far as the fringes of 1st team football should be treated with a deal of patience and respect - don’t jump to conclusions on the basis of a few performances . Edit - just seen Gods’ post on this very subject. Sorry to have repeated but the points worth making. Only at Stoke could a player who scored 17 goals 2 seasons running be so hated.
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Post by PotterLog on Jul 26, 2023 14:29:24 GMT
This is a thought provoking thread. It is hard to see the potential in a young player. I don’t think many have come through to the first team at SCFC and then failed to progress before doing well elsewhere. We’ve had plenty leave at younger ages and then be a big deal at other clubs but not players who got as far as the first team. That suggests that DWP, Taylor, McCarron and Edwards are not going to make it. I don't know why Edwards is being mentioned at all. He'll be 25 this season, he's almost halfway through his career.
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Post by iamstokie on Jul 26, 2023 14:55:37 GMT
if they’re Stoke youngsters then Bayern doesn’t , they can be in the grave and he’ll reckon they could do a decent job for us 😉😂🤣
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Post by Ron on Jul 26, 2023 15:05:51 GMT
As a club it would be brilliant if we thought outside the box(well our box) and linked up with a lower league German club and sent a few there. Germany is an excellent place for young players too progress. I thought Sidibe was excellent last night. He didn't look out of place at all. Lowe looks raw, but he's a unit and looks like he's got something about him. They need decent loans. Please don't keep sending them too places like Accrington and Solihull Motors accrington- why would that be a bad place for a loan? Good club who punch well above their weight.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jul 26, 2023 15:25:17 GMT
In terms of writing a youngster off the fans opinion is pretty much irrelevant - we either get it wrong or get it right. It's not even individual managers or coaches that right youngsters off - it's the game itself and whether the youngsters have the talent and, just as important, the drive and mental resilience to make it. Statistically the vast majority don't make it so if you are into being proved right for he sake of it you are better off writing youngsters off because you will be right most of the time.
Coaches and managers have a way better understanding of whether a youngster has got what it takes to make it and have to get good at making the right call - they have to otherwise they will put out players who aren't up to it and lose games they could have won and end up having substandard players in their squad.
20-23 is the crucial time - if they haven't been eased into playing regularly at whatever level they are at (whether on loan or at their patent club) by that age then almost by definition they haven't made it. That's not to say youngsters playing regularly at a lower level at that age wont make it at a higher level just that they need to be good enough to be considered first team material to have any chance of having a reasonable career.
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Post by stokeyank on Jul 26, 2023 15:32:22 GMT
Also some players just reach their potential at a young age and stagnate. Others continue to develop. Have seen it many times on many levels in basketball (which I coach). Had a friend in grade school who was our best player and age 12. By the time we played in high school at 18, he barely made the team and never played. Same happened to me in baseball. I was the best player in the league at 13 and gave it up at 16 because everyone passed me by.
Happens at all levels. We should be assessing year over year, for each, are they improving? If they stop showing improvement over a couple of years it's time to move on. It sad for the teenagers that it would happen to, but hopefully we do right by them by being honest and finding them their best move for the future.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Jul 26, 2023 15:49:37 GMT
I think it's impossible to say for sure. We can't keep hold of almost everyone in the hope that one day they'll be a first-team player. A combination of U23s and short loans may not suit some players, and they may start to thrive once they play regular first team footballers with already established professionals.
There will be exceptions whatever the rule. No one probably batted an eyelid when Jon Walters was let go 2 or 3 times early in his career, for example. Yet he turned out to be one of our most important players in recent times.
Sometimes players just work at different clubs and at different times in their careers.
Are there any more recent examples than Jamie Vardy of not making it big until mid-20s?
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Post by AlliG on Jul 26, 2023 16:26:48 GMT
Also some players just reach their potential at a young age and stagnate. Others continue to develop. Have seen it many times on many levels in basketball (which I coach). Had a friend in grade school who was our best player and age 12. By the time we played in high school at 18, he barely made the team and never played. Same happened to me in baseball. I was the best player in the league at 13 and gave it up at 16 because everyone passed me by. Happens at all levels. We should be assessing year over year, for each, are they improving? If they stop showing improvement over a couple of years it's time to move on. It sad for the teenagers that it would happen to, but hopefully we do right by them by being honest and finding them their best move for the future. The original question is an interesting one. I remember going to the 1984 FA Youth Cup Final. The best player on the pitch in both legs (and by a country mile) was the Everton centre-forward Rob Wakenshaw. He scored in both legs and also scored against Man Utd in a first team game between the 2 legs of the final. I had a friend who was an Everton season ticket holder at the time and he reckoned he was the best young forward he had seen since Joe Royle. In those days I used to go to a lot of local football and remember being gobsmacked when I went to watch the first Crewe home game of the 1987/88 season and Rob Wakenshaw jogged out onto the pitch as Crewe's new striker. I will be kind to him and say that I am sure I have seen worse strikers at Crewe, but I am struggling to think of any.
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Post by wagsastokie on Jul 26, 2023 16:30:58 GMT
I doubt this will be popular with most But in my opinion it’s the biggest farce in modern football is academics running until their 23
Thousands and thousands of footballers have been at clubs for over a decade and never made a full first team appearance
If there not semi regulars or at least on the first team bench at twenty fire them down the road into non league football if there good enough they’ll work there way back up
Ian wright vardy etc
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Post by lordb on Jul 26, 2023 16:46:54 GMT
As a club it would be brilliant if we thought outside the box(well our box) and linked up with a lower league German club and sent a few there. Germany is an excellent place for young players too progress. I thought Sidibe was excellent last night. He didn't look out of place at all. Lowe looks raw, but he's a unit and looks like he's got something about him. They need decent loans. Please don't keep sending them too places like Accrington and Solihull Motors accrington- why would that be a bad place for a loan? Good club who punch well above their weight. Solihull even more so, pardon the pun National league is a good standard no worse than league 2 and better than many first tiers abroad Certainly better than Scottish Championship where Sparrow went
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Post by lordb on Jul 26, 2023 16:47:48 GMT
I doubt this will be popular with most But in my opinion it’s the biggest farce in modern football is academics running until their 23 Thousands and thousands of footballers have been at clubs for over a decade and never made a full first team appearance If there not semi regulars or at least on the first team bench at twenty fire them down the road into non league football if there good enough they’ll work there way back up Ian wright vardy etc That's why they changed it from U23 to U21 a couple of seasons ago
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Post by wagsastokie on Jul 26, 2023 16:52:19 GMT
I doubt this will be popular with most But in my opinion it’s the biggest farce in modern football is academics running until their 23 Thousands and thousands of footballers have been at clubs for over a decade and never made a full first team appearance If there not semi regulars or at least on the first team bench at twenty fire them down the road into non league football if there good enough they’ll work there way back up Ian wright vardy etc That's why they changed it from U23 to U21 a couple of seasons ago Sorry didn’t realise they had
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