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France
Jul 2, 2023 10:47:31 GMT
Post by wannabee on Jul 2, 2023 10:47:31 GMT
It doesn’t take it forward. It’s anger, frustration and in some cases opportunistic (and ultimately counterproductive) crime. I doubt many people disagree with that. But there’s a bigger picture. Put it a different way. What would your advice be to residents of Cobham, who had been born in an ST postcode, who faced routine and systematic discrimination on the basis of that postcode. And indeed that discrimination extended to their kids and grandkids who were born and raised in Cobham. And where the response of a very large proportion of the local population, to legitimately expressed concerns, was: “If you don’t like it, **** off back to where you came from”. I don’t have the answer btw. It’s a genuine question. I’d look at changing the mentality and the area get community leaders together police, council etc and look at implementing opportunity’s from the ground up. Of course I haven’t witnessed so can’t claim to be an expert . Have you? One things for sure I wouldn’t be burning where I lived down to the ground. I’m sure that there’s plenty of people in Paris who don’t think the way the rioters do. When you look at those causing the damage they seem of a certain age. Why’s that? It was the same in Ely. I think there has to be a certain mentality there in the first place to do what they’re doing it can’t all be blamed on politics. Things need to change at a very young ax I think the current generations lost. I’ll be interested to know what the mum of the young lad thinks. I think you are being extremely naive Your central contention is that the Youths must have a certain "mentality" to do what they are doing and in particular burning properties You say it can't be all Politics, why can't it? What has happened is entirely predictable of a flawed policy which just needed a spark to set off the powder keg The areas in Paris where these disturbances have taken place are in "Zones Urbaines Sensibles" literally translated as "sensitive urban areas" which is a euphemism for segregation of the poor, mainly of immigrant ethnicity, from wider French Society. These Ghettos are Municiply Planned Impoverished Low Rent Housing Projects deliberately designed and built far away from the affluent inner-city Paris neighbourhoods. They have little or no community facilities and are heavily Policed and of course Petty Crime and Drug taking is rife. Casual Racism is a daily occurrence There are about 5 Million people living in ZUS not just in Paris but dotted around in the outskirts of large Urban Cities It is the French solution to segregate its immigrant population it is a Social, Political and Cultural construct and naturally has high levels of Youth Unemployment from poor Educational outcomes. Even Elvis knew the inevitable outcome of a baby born into Poverty "In the Ghetto"
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France
Jul 2, 2023 11:30:05 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2023 11:30:05 GMT
Back in 2011 there was a video doing the rounds "london riots spread to manchester" then just cctv footage of a guy standing in a deathly quiet street, looking around for a while to make sure the coast was clear, before gently pushing over a wheelie bin.
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Post by str8outtahampton on Jul 2, 2023 11:43:24 GMT
It doesn’t take it forward. It’s anger, frustration and in some cases opportunistic (and ultimately counterproductive) crime. I doubt many people disagree with that. But there’s a bigger picture. Put it a different way. What would your advice be to residents of Cobham, who had been born in an ST postcode, who faced routine and systematic discrimination on the basis of that postcode. And indeed that discrimination extended to their kids and grandkids who were born and raised in Cobham. And where the response of a very large proportion of the local population, to legitimately expressed concerns, was: “If you don’t like it, **** off back to where you came from”. I don’t have the answer btw. It’s a genuine question. I’d look at changing the mentality and the area get community leaders together police, council etc and look at implementing opportunity’s from the ground up. Of course I haven’t witnessed so can’t claim to be an expert . Have you? One things for sure I wouldn’t be burning where I lived down to the ground. I’m sure that there’s plenty of people in Paris who don’t think the way the rioters do. When you look at those causing the damage they seem of a certain age. Why’s that? It was the same in Ely. I think there has to be a certain mentality there in the first place to do what they’re doing it can’t all be blamed on politics. Things need to change at a very young ax I think the current generations lost. I’ll be interested to know what the mum of the young lad thinks. Not seen it, and nor am I an expert. But I have spent quite a lot of time in France. And still do. I have family in Toulouse (inevitably one of the cities which has experienced disorder - this time and previously). You say the current generation is lost. I have no idea what that means, but this generation are the children and grandchildren of people who were being racially profiled by the police when I lived in Paris in the early 80s. You saw it all the time on the street and metro. You can assume that there has been any amount of community action. But for very large numbers of residents in Nanterre and similar places it’s like watching a performance of Waiting for Godot. I cannot second guess what you would do. But let me give you another example. My father was a “migrant”. He encountered (not universally by any means) plenty of hostility, prejudice and suspicion. What would my response be, if 70 odd years later, his grandchildren faced similar discrimination? I honestly don’t know.
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Post by starkiller on Jul 2, 2023 11:48:10 GMT
What happened to lighting candles and moving on?
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Post by str8outtahampton on Jul 2, 2023 11:50:26 GMT
I’d look at changing the mentality and the area get community leaders together police, council etc and look at implementing opportunity’s from the ground up. Of course I haven’t witnessed so can’t claim to be an expert . Have you? One things for sure I wouldn’t be burning where I lived down to the ground. I’m sure that there’s plenty of people in Paris who don’t think the way the rioters do. When you look at those causing the damage they seem of a certain age. Why’s that? It was the same in Ely. I think there has to be a certain mentality there in the first place to do what they’re doing it can’t all be blamed on politics. Things need to change at a very young ax I think the current generations lost. I’ll be interested to know what the mum of the young lad thinks. I think you are being extremely naive Your central contention is that the Youths must have a certain "mentality" to do what they are doing and in particular burning properties You say it can't be all Politics, why can't it? What has happened is entirely predictable of a flawed policy which just needed a spark to set off the powder keg The areas in Paris where these disturbances have taken place are in "Zones Urbaines Sensibles" literally translated as "sensitive urban areas" which is a euphemism for segregation of the poor, mainly of immigrant ethnicity, from wider French Society. These Ghettos are Municiply Planned Impoverished Low Rent Housing Projects deliberately designed and built far away from the affluent inner-city Paris neighbourhoods. They have little or no community facilities and are heavily Policed and of course Petty Crime and Drug taking is rife. Casual Racism is a daily occurrence There are about 5 Million people living in ZUS not just in Paris but dotted around in the outskirts of large Urban Cities It is the French solution to segregate its immigrant population it is a Social, Political and Cultural construct and naturally has high levels of Youth Unemployment from poor Educational outcomes. Even Elvis knew the inevitable outcome of a baby born into Poverty "In the Ghetto" Funnily enough I heard “In The Ghetto” yesterday on Pick of the Pops. And thought “plus ca change”. It’s a corking tune!
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Post by cvillestokie on Jul 2, 2023 11:59:06 GMT
Up the protestors. Three nights of rioting across France have once again exposed the country’s acute social tensions at a time of growing political polarisation. The latest protests demonstrate that France’s impoverished, ethnically-mixed neighbourhoods remain a powder keg, riven with a feeling of injustice, racial discrimination and abandonment by the state. The criminal disorder, though shocking, is not yet on the scale of 2005, when more than 10,000 cars were torched and more than 230 public buildings damaged in a three-week orgy of violence. But the authorities understandably fear a repeat. This week’s unrest, like that of 18 years ago, was triggered by the death of a non-white teenager after a police chase. Different this time is the power of social media to propagate unrest. The far-right is also stronger than it was in 2005. And this time around President Emmanuel Macron and his government have sought to defuse tensions rather than stoke them. In 2005, the then interior minister Nicolas Sarkozy described the young people involved in disturbances in the housing estates of outer Paris as “scum” who needed to be “got rid of”. A few days later, two teenagers, one Mauritanian, one of Tunisian origin, were electrocuted as they hid from the police in an electricity substation in a suburb north-east of the capital. Sarkozy and his prime minister Dominique de Villepin sided with the police and suggested the two boys were thieves. By contrast, Macron described the police shooting of a 17-year-old-boy of north African origin as he drove off in a car in Nanterre, north-west of Paris, as “inexcusable” and “inexplicable”. The officer concerned was suspended from duty, arrested and placed under investigation for murder. Macron was attacked by rightwing opponents and the police unions for undercutting the presumption of innocence — and accused of betraying the police. But the necessity of the president’s intervention became apparent when a video of the shooting appeared on social media, clearly contradicting an initial account from police sources that the officer had fired his gun because his life was in danger. Not appearing to condone police violence is a necessary if not sufficient first step towards restoring public order. Some experts have blamed the shooting on Tuesday on a law passed in 2017, before Macron came to power. This appears to give the police more powers to shoot at a car if its occupants fail to comply with a police order and put an officer’s life in danger. Macron’s critics will be tempted to argue that he indulged a dysfunctional police force, along with his hardline interior minister Gérald Darmanin, calculating that to do otherwise would play into the hands of the far-right. But the recent evidence of police shortcomings is plentiful: excessive use of force during anti-government protests; racist violence, such as the savage beating of a black music producer caught on camera; incompetent public order policing, as seen at last year’s Champions League final; a breakdown in trust with local residents, which could be reversed with a shift to community policing. The police are poorly resourced but also badly trained. The high level of support for the far-right among officers is also worrying. The rioting is a reminder of the deep-seated social and economic problems in France’s poorer districts and the long legacy of government neglect. There have been achievements since Macron won power in 2017, particularly the fall in overall and youth unemployment. But entrenched poverty, crime, racial discrimination and educational underperformance require more government attention and resources even if public finances are tight. Macron’s promised Quartiers 2030 plan for these areas has been slow to take shape. None of these problems justify rampaging violence. Some of the young men fighting the police on the streets will feel righteous anger; others will just relish the thrill — and enjoy sharing it on social media even more. The longer the riots continue, the harder it will be for the government to resist taking a heavier approach. If the unrest spreads, it can only help the far-right, which has the political momentum and every interest in conjuring the spectre of civil disorder. www.ft.com/content/c1326aa2-63bd-4f87-907d-a3eddfc4a5ccWell, they’re only going to get poorer now aren’t they? •After burning down a lot of the limited infrastructure that they have, what local businesses are going to be left for disadvantaged communities? •After burning out cars, how are their parents going to get to work to pay the bills? • How will they cope with the increased insurance bills that hit the area because it’s now seen as more volatile? The problem with rioting is it often occurs in the communities that are most vulnerable. The more damage is done, the more I see the general suburbanite moving away from condemning the shooting and moving towards condemning those that have less of a voice. Minorities need support to invoke change. They aren’t protesters. You don’t steal cars or burn down your local shop in protest. When protests turn into riots, it doesn’t take long before people start dying.
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France
Jul 2, 2023 12:05:32 GMT
Post by wannabee on Jul 2, 2023 12:05:32 GMT
What happened to lighting candles and moving on? Plenty of Candles here, is this the type of thing and response your talking about?
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Post by starkiller on Jul 2, 2023 12:09:55 GMT
What happened to lighting candles and moving on? Plenty of Candles here, is this the type of thing and response your talking about? I'm not condoning the police. But I can't remember innocent citizens being attacked and independent shops being smashed and trashed after this.
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France
Jul 2, 2023 13:05:31 GMT
via mobile
Post by cobhamstokey on Jul 2, 2023 13:05:31 GMT
Plenty of Candles here, is this the type of thing and response your talking about? I'm not condoning the police. But I can't remember innocent citizens being attacked and independent shops being smashed and trashed after this. Probably because there wasn’t. It does appear that in the U.K. we tend to go for the approach of generally blaming the individual rather than the organisation or group and allowing judgement to be made in court as it should be. Though there have been the odd flare ups like Bristol and Ely we’ve never had the numbers involved in Paris. I do however think we’re close to a Paris type response if social media has anything to do with it as they do like to stir and divide.
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Post by Boothen on Jul 2, 2023 14:14:08 GMT
Gotta laugh at the MSM channels going out of their way to avoid stating the fucking obvious.
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France
Jul 2, 2023 14:38:03 GMT
via mobile
Post by cobhamstokey on Jul 2, 2023 14:38:03 GMT
Gotta laugh at the MSM channels going out of their way to avoid stating the fucking obvious. I’ve not been watching msm. What are they doing?
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Post by hoffgreen on Jul 2, 2023 14:53:27 GMT
Gotta laugh at the MSM channels going out of their way to avoid stating the fucking obvious. I’ve not been watching msm. What are they doing? It's called a giant elephant in a very small room that few dare to mention in public.... Otherwise known as inviting a fox into your hen house
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 2, 2023 14:56:13 GMT
Gotta laugh at the MSM channels going out of their way to avoid stating the fucking obvious. I’ve not been watching msm. What are they doing? They're not saying it's the fucking n*ggers and Muslims like Boothen and hoffgreen think they should...
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Post by gawa on Jul 2, 2023 15:13:23 GMT
Up the protestors. Three nights of rioting across France have once again exposed the country’s acute social tensions at a time of growing political polarisation. The latest protests demonstrate that France’s impoverished, ethnically-mixed neighbourhoods remain a powder keg, riven with a feeling of injustice, racial discrimination and abandonment by the state. The criminal disorder, though shocking, is not yet on the scale of 2005, when more than 10,000 cars were torched and more than 230 public buildings damaged in a three-week orgy of violence. But the authorities understandably fear a repeat. This week’s unrest, like that of 18 years ago, was triggered by the death of a non-white teenager after a police chase. Different this time is the power of social media to propagate unrest. The far-right is also stronger than it was in 2005. And this time around President Emmanuel Macron and his government have sought to defuse tensions rather than stoke them. In 2005, the then interior minister Nicolas Sarkozy described the young people involved in disturbances in the housing estates of outer Paris as “scum” who needed to be “got rid of”. A few days later, two teenagers, one Mauritanian, one of Tunisian origin, were electrocuted as they hid from the police in an electricity substation in a suburb north-east of the capital. Sarkozy and his prime minister Dominique de Villepin sided with the police and suggested the two boys were thieves. By contrast, Macron described the police shooting of a 17-year-old-boy of north African origin as he drove off in a car in Nanterre, north-west of Paris, as “inexcusable” and “inexplicable”. The officer concerned was suspended from duty, arrested and placed under investigation for murder. Macron was attacked by rightwing opponents and the police unions for undercutting the presumption of innocence — and accused of betraying the police. But the necessity of the president’s intervention became apparent when a video of the shooting appeared on social media, clearly contradicting an initial account from police sources that the officer had fired his gun because his life was in danger. Not appearing to condone police violence is a necessary if not sufficient first step towards restoring public order. Some experts have blamed the shooting on Tuesday on a law passed in 2017, before Macron came to power. This appears to give the police more powers to shoot at a car if its occupants fail to comply with a police order and put an officer’s life in danger. Macron’s critics will be tempted to argue that he indulged a dysfunctional police force, along with his hardline interior minister Gérald Darmanin, calculating that to do otherwise would play into the hands of the far-right. But the recent evidence of police shortcomings is plentiful: excessive use of force during anti-government protests; racist violence, such as the savage beating of a black music producer caught on camera; incompetent public order policing, as seen at last year’s Champions League final; a breakdown in trust with local residents, which could be reversed with a shift to community policing. The police are poorly resourced but also badly trained. The high level of support for the far-right among officers is also worrying. The rioting is a reminder of the deep-seated social and economic problems in France’s poorer districts and the long legacy of government neglect. There have been achievements since Macron won power in 2017, particularly the fall in overall and youth unemployment. But entrenched poverty, crime, racial discrimination and educational underperformance require more government attention and resources even if public finances are tight. Macron’s promised Quartiers 2030 plan for these areas has been slow to take shape. None of these problems justify rampaging violence. Some of the young men fighting the police on the streets will feel righteous anger; others will just relish the thrill — and enjoy sharing it on social media even more. The longer the riots continue, the harder it will be for the government to resist taking a heavier approach. If the unrest spreads, it can only help the far-right, which has the political momentum and every interest in conjuring the spectre of civil disorder. www.ft.com/content/c1326aa2-63bd-4f87-907d-a3eddfc4a5ccWell, they’re only going to get poorer now aren’t they? •After burning down a lot of the limited infrastructure that they have, what local businesses are going to be left for disadvantaged communities? •After burning out cars, how are their parents going to get to work to pay the bills? • How will they cope with the increased insurance bills that hit the area because it’s now seen as more volatile? The problem with rioting is it often occurs in the communities that are most vulnerable. The more damage is done, the more I see the general suburbanite moving away from condemning the shooting and moving towards condemning those that have less of a voice. Minorities need support to invoke change. They aren’t protesters. You don’t steal cars or burn down your local shop in protest. When protests turn into riots, it doesn’t take long before people start dying. I don't think it will affect the area as much as you think. My estate has had numerous cars, buses and shops burned down from rioting and it didn't make us poorer. The shops were actually completely knocked down with new better shops built. I think rioting is usually a last resort when peaceful movements have no impact. We had some cars and buses burned out due to the NI protocol and that was stupid and just impacting people like me living in the area. It's not a cause I could personally get behind or support. But what I will say is alot of the people who were burning out cars were young people with debts to drug dealers. And they were effectively being forced to riot to clear their debts. So alot of the people caught up in such things and causing the most destruction may be being coerced into some of it. When I think of the civil rights movement in America, the French revolution, NI civil rights movement, South African apartheid, Mahsa Amini protests etc.. these are all past or ongoing movements were rioting and violence was resorted to due to peaceful demonstrations being ineffective. Do I think it's a bit stupid destroying your local infrastructure and possessions? Yeh it really is and in the short term their communities will feel that impact. Do I think that by attacking businesses and such that it increases the coverage and seriousness? Yes and I think through doing so it means the government/police can't ignore it. Would I rather things be attacked than people? Yes. As far as I'm aware there has only been 1 person killed from this uprising. That to me suggests people are causing chaos but not actively looking to harm others. Like it or not though, history shows that if it wasn't for rioting then the world would be an even more inequal place than it currently is. When you allow inequality to spread then eventually people will take action. When you're hopeless and your desperate you're going to do more extreme things. For some it's stealing nappies from a supermarket, for others it's sailing the ocean in an inflatable boat. So when I see people burning cars because they're desperate and they've had enough and been triggered, I'm not surprised. I'm not going to personally agree with every action in the riots. I'm sure there'll be plenty of videos of people doing things I don't agree with. But I'm not going to condemn (that means to go against?) the movement either.
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France
Jul 2, 2023 15:22:31 GMT
via mobile
Post by yeswilko on Jul 2, 2023 15:22:31 GMT
I’ve not been watching msm. What are they doing? It's called a giant elephant in a very small room that few dare to mention in public.... Otherwise known as inviting a fox into your hen house So you're a coward..
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France
Jul 2, 2023 15:55:57 GMT
via mobile
knype likes this
Post by sticky on Jul 2, 2023 15:55:57 GMT
That attack on the Paris mayors home, wife and children is disgusting. Hope they catch whoever was involved and they get a severe sentence
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France
Jul 2, 2023 15:56:52 GMT
via mobile
Post by longdistancekiddie on Jul 2, 2023 15:56:52 GMT
Was there any protests about the murder of Lola Daviet
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France
Jul 2, 2023 16:00:03 GMT
via mobile
Post by cvillestokie on Jul 2, 2023 16:00:03 GMT
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Post by cvillestokie on Jul 2, 2023 16:12:41 GMT
Well, they’re only going to get poorer now aren’t they? •After burning down a lot of the limited infrastructure that they have, what local businesses are going to be left for disadvantaged communities? •After burning out cars, how are their parents going to get to work to pay the bills? • How will they cope with the increased insurance bills that hit the area because it’s now seen as more volatile? The problem with rioting is it often occurs in the communities that are most vulnerable. The more damage is done, the more I see the general suburbanite moving away from condemning the shooting and moving towards condemning those that have less of a voice. Minorities need support to invoke change. They aren’t protesters. You don’t steal cars or burn down your local shop in protest. When protests turn into riots, it doesn’t take long before people start dying. I don't think it will affect the area as much as you think. My estate has had numerous cars, buses and shops burned down from rioting and it didn't make us poorer. The shops were actually completely knocked down with new better shops built. I think rioting is usually a last resort when peaceful movements have no impact. We had some cars and buses burned out due to the NI protocol and that was stupid and just impacting people like me living in the area. It's not a cause I could personally get behind or support. But what I will say is alot of the people who were burning out cars were young people with debts to drug dealers. And they were effectively being forced to riot to clear their debts. So alot of the people caught up in such things and causing the most destruction may be being coerced into some of it. When I think of the civil rights movement in America, the French revolution, NI civil rights movement, South African apartheid, Mahsa Amini protests etc.. these are all past or ongoing movements were rioting and violence was resorted to due to peaceful demonstrations being ineffective. Do I think it's a bit stupid destroying your local infrastructure and possessions? Yeh it really is and in the short term their communities will feel that impact. Do I think that by attacking businesses and such that it increases the coverage and seriousness? Yes and I think through doing so it means the government/police can't ignore it. Would I rather things be attacked than people? Yes. As far as I'm aware there has only been 1 person killed from this uprising. That to me suggests people are causing chaos but not actively looking to harm others. Like it or not though, history shows that if it wasn't for rioting then the world would be an even more inequal place than it currently is. When you allow inequality to spread then eventually people will take action. When you're hopeless and your desperate you're going to do more extreme things. For some it's stealing nappies from a supermarket, for others it's sailing the ocean in an inflatable boat. So when I see people burning cars because they're desperate and they've had enough and been triggered, I'm not surprised. I'm not going to personally agree with every action in the riots. I'm sure there'll be plenty of videos of people doing things I don't agree with. But I'm not going to condemn (that means to go against?) the movement either. Perhaps you’re right and it won’t affect the community. However, my family has lived through some pretty bad poverty and I don’t think at that time we would have been able to survive if our car was destroyed. I’m not sure it would have been easy to get by if we couldn’t get to do a weekly shop because we’d have to walk miles to the nearest bus stop to take us to the city either. As for the US civil rights movement, many of the most effective protests came from non-violence. That was the whole point, to organize in areas with high media coverage and to not attack police who were attacking you on film. That whole push was about changing public perception and controlling a narrative. There were riots and the movement was far from just MLK but the sit ins, the boycotts and the marches were very much the tool for change. More than anything, protests work when there are clear goals and a unified front. It’s hard to say that stealing tvs and cars represents a clear message for social justice.
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Post by Veritas on Jul 2, 2023 16:17:26 GMT
I’ve not been watching msm. What are they doing? It's called a giant elephant in a very small room that few dare to mention in public.... Otherwise known as inviting a fox into your hen house What that the poor, marginalised and disadvantaged have reached breaking point? Yes obviously there are plenty of examples of lawlessness such as ransacking a Nike store by opportunistic thugs but the basic simmering injustice remains at the root of the issue.
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Post by knype on Jul 2, 2023 16:33:20 GMT
I’ve not been watching msm. What are they doing? They're not saying it's the fucking n*ggers and Muslims like Boothen and hoffgreen think they should... Here he is, another one who thinks it's OK to imply something or to put words in other people's mouths...
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France
Jul 2, 2023 16:33:59 GMT
via mobile
Post by knype on Jul 2, 2023 16:33:59 GMT
It's called a giant elephant in a very small room that few dare to mention in public.... Otherwise known as inviting a fox into your hen house So you're a coward.. Wtaf 🤣🤣
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France
Jul 2, 2023 16:35:15 GMT
via mobile
Post by knype on Jul 2, 2023 16:35:15 GMT
Well, they’re only going to get poorer now aren’t they? •After burning down a lot of the limited infrastructure that they have, what local businesses are going to be left for disadvantaged communities? •After burning out cars, how are their parents going to get to work to pay the bills? • How will they cope with the increased insurance bills that hit the area because it’s now seen as more volatile? The problem with rioting is it often occurs in the communities that are most vulnerable. The more damage is done, the more I see the general suburbanite moving away from condemning the shooting and moving towards condemning those that have less of a voice. Minorities need support to invoke change. They aren’t protesters. You don’t steal cars or burn down your local shop in protest. When protests turn into riots, it doesn’t take long before people start dying. I don't think it will affect the area as much as you think. My estate has had numerous cars, buses and shops burned down from rioting and it didn't make us poorer. The shops were actually completely knocked down with new better shops built. I think rioting is usually a last resort when peaceful movements have no impact. We had some cars and buses burned out due to the NI protocol and that was stupid and just impacting people like me living in the area. It's not a cause I could personally get behind or support. But what I will say is alot of the people who were burning out cars were young people with debts to drug dealers. And they were effectively being forced to riot to clear their debts. So alot of the people caught up in such things and causing the most destruction may be being coerced into some of it. When I think of the civil rights movement in America, the French revolution, NI civil rights movement, South African apartheid, Mahsa Amini protests etc.. these are all past or ongoing movements were rioting and violence was resorted to due to peaceful demonstrations being ineffective. Do I think it's a bit stupid destroying your local infrastructure and possessions? Yeh it really is and in the short term their communities will feel that impact. Do I think that by attacking businesses and such that it increases the coverage and seriousness? Yes and I think through doing so it means the government/police can't ignore it. Would I rather things be attacked than people? Yes. As far as I'm aware there has only been 1 person killed from this uprising. That to me suggests people are causing chaos but not actively looking to harm others. Like it or not though, history shows that if it wasn't for rioting then the world would be an even more inequal place than it currently is. When you allow inequality to spread then eventually people will take action. When you're hopeless and your desperate you're going to do more extreme things. For some it's stealing nappies from a supermarket, for others it's sailing the ocean in an inflatable boat. So when I see people burning cars because they're desperate and they've had enough and been triggered, I'm not surprised. I'm not going to personally agree with every action in the riots. I'm sure there'll be plenty of videos of people doing things I don't agree with. But I'm not going to condemn (that means to go against?) the movement either. Ah, it's OK then as long as they're only looting,destroying livelihoods and causing widespread disorder.
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Post by Veritas on Jul 2, 2023 16:36:23 GMT
I don't think it will affect the area as much as you think. My estate has had numerous cars, buses and shops burned down from rioting and it didn't make us poorer. The shops were actually completely knocked down with new better shops built. I think rioting is usually a last resort when peaceful movements have no impact. We had some cars and buses burned out due to the NI protocol and that was stupid and just impacting people like me living in the area. It's not a cause I could personally get behind or support. But what I will say is alot of the people who were burning out cars were young people with debts to drug dealers. And they were effectively being forced to riot to clear their debts. So alot of the people caught up in such things and causing the most destruction may be being coerced into some of it. When I think of the civil rights movement in America, the French revolution, NI civil rights movement, South African apartheid, Mahsa Amini protests etc.. these are all past or ongoing movements were rioting and violence was resorted to due to peaceful demonstrations being ineffective. Do I think it's a bit stupid destroying your local infrastructure and possessions? Yeh it really is and in the short term their communities will feel that impact. Do I think that by attacking businesses and such that it increases the coverage and seriousness? Yes and I think through doing so it means the government/police can't ignore it. Would I rather things be attacked than people? Yes. As far as I'm aware there has only been 1 person killed from this uprising. That to me suggests people are causing chaos but not actively looking to harm others. Like it or not though, history shows that if it wasn't for rioting then the world would be an even more inequal place than it currently is. When you allow inequality to spread then eventually people will take action. When you're hopeless and your desperate you're going to do more extreme things. For some it's stealing nappies from a supermarket, for others it's sailing the ocean in an inflatable boat. So when I see people burning cars because they're desperate and they've had enough and been triggered, I'm not surprised. I'm not going to personally agree with every action in the riots. I'm sure there'll be plenty of videos of people doing things I don't agree with. But I'm not going to condemn (that means to go against?) the movement either. Ah, it's OK then as long as they're only looting,destroying livelihoods and causing widespread disorder. Would you stand by and see a member of your community shot dead?
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Post by gawa on Jul 2, 2023 16:41:04 GMT
I don't think it will affect the area as much as you think. My estate has had numerous cars, buses and shops burned down from rioting and it didn't make us poorer. The shops were actually completely knocked down with new better shops built. I think rioting is usually a last resort when peaceful movements have no impact. We had some cars and buses burned out due to the NI protocol and that was stupid and just impacting people like me living in the area. It's not a cause I could personally get behind or support. But what I will say is alot of the people who were burning out cars were young people with debts to drug dealers. And they were effectively being forced to riot to clear their debts. So alot of the people caught up in such things and causing the most destruction may be being coerced into some of it. When I think of the civil rights movement in America, the French revolution, NI civil rights movement, South African apartheid, Mahsa Amini protests etc.. these are all past or ongoing movements were rioting and violence was resorted to due to peaceful demonstrations being ineffective. Do I think it's a bit stupid destroying your local infrastructure and possessions? Yeh it really is and in the short term their communities will feel that impact. Do I think that by attacking businesses and such that it increases the coverage and seriousness? Yes and I think through doing so it means the government/police can't ignore it. Would I rather things be attacked than people? Yes. As far as I'm aware there has only been 1 person killed from this uprising. That to me suggests people are causing chaos but not actively looking to harm others. Like it or not though, history shows that if it wasn't for rioting then the world would be an even more inequal place than it currently is. When you allow inequality to spread then eventually people will take action. When you're hopeless and your desperate you're going to do more extreme things. For some it's stealing nappies from a supermarket, for others it's sailing the ocean in an inflatable boat. So when I see people burning cars because they're desperate and they've had enough and been triggered, I'm not surprised. I'm not going to personally agree with every action in the riots. I'm sure there'll be plenty of videos of people doing things I don't agree with. But I'm not going to condemn (that means to go against?) the movement either. Perhaps you’re right and it won’t affect the community. However, my family has lived through some pretty bad poverty and I don’t think at that time we would have been able to survive if our car was destroyed. I’m not sure it would have been easy to get by if we couldn’t get to do a weekly shop because we’d have to walk miles to the nearest bus stop to take us to the city either. As for the US civil rights movement, many of the most effective protests came from non-violence. That was the whole point, to organize in areas with high media coverage and to not attack police who were attacking you on film. That whole push was about changing public perception and controlling a narrative. There were riots and the movement was far from just MLK but the sit ins, the boycotts and the marches were very much the tool for change. More than anything, protests work when there are clear goals and a unified front. It’s hard to say that stealing tvs and cars represents a clear message for social justice. Car insurance covers fire and theft in most cases. If your car got burnt out today you'd more than likely have a hire car provided by insurande temporarily until funds were released to cover the loss. Like I said, I don't support every action. I'm not however going to change my opinion on a movement based on the actions of a few. The French police have a history of antagonising violence too and blaming others, was only a few years ago that Liverpool fans were getting blamed after the police attacked them with pepper spray and tear gas. If similar tactics amd heavy handedness is being used against protestors then they'll likely respond with chaos and violence too. Didn't the French police describe them as vermin like the day after the kid died? Let's not try and pretend that the police force with a chequered past aren't fuelling violence themselves through their own actions.
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France
Jul 2, 2023 16:53:50 GMT
via mobile
Post by gawa on Jul 2, 2023 16:53:50 GMT
I don't think it will affect the area as much as you think. My estate has had numerous cars, buses and shops burned down from rioting and it didn't make us poorer. The shops were actually completely knocked down with new better shops built. I think rioting is usually a last resort when peaceful movements have no impact. We had some cars and buses burned out due to the NI protocol and that was stupid and just impacting people like me living in the area. It's not a cause I could personally get behind or support. But what I will say is alot of the people who were burning out cars were young people with debts to drug dealers. And they were effectively being forced to riot to clear their debts. So alot of the people caught up in such things and causing the most destruction may be being coerced into some of it. When I think of the civil rights movement in America, the French revolution, NI civil rights movement, South African apartheid, Mahsa Amini protests etc.. these are all past or ongoing movements were rioting and violence was resorted to due to peaceful demonstrations being ineffective. Do I think it's a bit stupid destroying your local infrastructure and possessions? Yeh it really is and in the short term their communities will feel that impact. Do I think that by attacking businesses and such that it increases the coverage and seriousness? Yes and I think through doing so it means the government/police can't ignore it. Would I rather things be attacked than people? Yes. As far as I'm aware there has only been 1 person killed from this uprising. That to me suggests people are causing chaos but not actively looking to harm others. Like it or not though, history shows that if it wasn't for rioting then the world would be an even more inequal place than it currently is. When you allow inequality to spread then eventually people will take action. When you're hopeless and your desperate you're going to do more extreme things. For some it's stealing nappies from a supermarket, for others it's sailing the ocean in an inflatable boat. So when I see people burning cars because they're desperate and they've had enough and been triggered, I'm not surprised. I'm not going to personally agree with every action in the riots. I'm sure there'll be plenty of videos of people doing things I don't agree with. But I'm not going to condemn (that means to go against?) the movement either. Ah, it's OK then as long as they're only looting,destroying livelihoods and causing widespread disorder. I support the movement. The movement is against a police form deemed to be treating a section of the community unfairly. I'm not surprised to see violence and chaos occur when 100s of riot police are deployed and lockdowns are imposed on citizens giving police a reason to arrest anyone outside. Do you support these lockdowns? The violence seemed to increase since then, no doubt as the police are using it as a reason to arrest and resort to violence themselves. Again not as if the French police don't have history of if. Of course the whole movement is in relation to a 17 year old child being shot dead. But it's not the only protest or riot to happen in France this year. There's been lots. Here's some info on the police response to the ongoing retirement changes demonstrations
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France
Jul 2, 2023 17:05:27 GMT
via mobile
knype likes this
Post by cobhamstokey on Jul 2, 2023 17:05:27 GMT
Ah, it's OK then as long as they're only looting,destroying livelihoods and causing widespread disorder. Would you stand by and see a member of your community shot dead? i just wish there was as much passion and anger shown by those within the communities when there are non police related murders taking place. Are those losing their lives at the end of a knife less important ? They certainly shouldn’t be. The issues regarding young people pointlessly losing their lives only seems to come to a head when it’s police related. When they’re killing each other there’s a wall of silence when they should be pulling together as a community and working with the leaders and elders to identify the killers. Why is it that when there are riots they always seem to be just those under the age of 25 ? It all seems so splintered with no leadership from the older members of the communities to guide the more hot headed youngsters.
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Post by knype on Jul 2, 2023 17:13:20 GMT
Ah, it's OK then as long as they're only looting,destroying livelihoods and causing widespread disorder. Would you stand by and see a member of your community shot dead? So destruction of the whole community through rioting, looting is ok. The police who did this will be punished for it. Its just an excuse for thugs to cause trouble
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France
Jul 2, 2023 17:14:48 GMT
via mobile
Post by knype on Jul 2, 2023 17:14:48 GMT
Ah, it's OK then as long as they're only looting,destroying livelihoods and causing widespread disorder. I support the movement. The movement is against a police form deemed to be treating a section of the community unfairly. I'm not surprised to see violence and chaos occur when 100s of riot police are deployed and lockdowns are imposed on citizens giving police a reason to arrest anyone outside. Do you support these lockdowns? The violence seemed to increase since then, no doubt as the police are using it as a reason to arrest and resort to violence themselves. Again not as if the French police don't have history of if. Of course the whole movement is in relation to a 17 year old child being shot dead. But it's not the only protest or riot to happen in France this year. There's been lots. Here's some info on the police response to the ongoing retirement changes demonstrations Should everyone take to the streets over stabbings over here ?
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France
Jul 2, 2023 17:16:41 GMT
via mobile
Post by knype on Jul 2, 2023 17:16:41 GMT
Ah, it's OK then as long as they're only looting,destroying livelihoods and causing widespread disorder. I support the movement. The movement is against a police form deemed to be treating a section of the community unfairly. I'm not surprised to see violence and chaos occur when 100s of riot police are deployed and lockdowns are imposed on citizens giving police a reason to arrest anyone outside. Do you support these lockdowns? The violence seemed to increase since then, no doubt as the police are using it as a reason to arrest and resort to violence themselves. Again not as if the French police don't have history of if. Of course the whole movement is in relation to a 17 year old child being shot dead. But it's not the only protest or riot to happen in France this year. There's been lots. Here's some info on the police response to the ongoing retirement changes demonstrations They'll have been arrested to take them off the streets to try and calm the situation down surely ? Which is a sensible way of doing it ?
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