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Baker
May 16, 2023 9:56:45 GMT
Post by nottsover60 on May 16, 2023 9:56:45 GMT
By the time Pearson came in Smallbone was first choice in Baker's position and Baker's confidence had taken a battering. Having been played as a defensive midfielder he lost his position a combination of Pearson and Laurent who returned from injury. Laurent was in Baker's position. Smallbone was in what passed for Powell's in the new set up. I think Smallbone only started playing further forward when we stopped playing three centre halves, two wing backs and two forwards. My memory is awful but I think pre Pearson and when Laurent got injured we were trying to play Smallbone and Baker as the two midfielders which was never going to work. I don't think Baker should have played in the role given to Smallbone
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 16, 2023 10:14:46 GMT
Laurent was in Baker's position. Smallbone was in what passed for Powell's in the new set up. I think Smallbone only started playing further forward when we stopped playing three centre halves, two wing backs and two forwards. My memory is awful but I think pre Pearson and when Laurent got injured we were trying to play Smallbone and Baker as the two midfielders which was never going to work. I am not saying Baker could have taken Smallbone's role but he was replaced by him as the free roaming, intercepting and late arriving role which he played last season. Yes I think the role changed a bit. Under MON he was the number 8, the one who could theoretically pull the strings from a bit deeper or, as you say, push forward to arrive late or have a pop from distance. Allen was the 6 doing the dirty work, Powell, when fit, the 10. Neil tasked him with the deeper role as you say, which didn't really suit him, though he has played it before elsewhere. Smallbone I think was always the one with the freedom to push forward more as the most attacking role, but Laurent then became the 8, and during his run of good form looked much more like a Neil player in carrying the ball forward. I think that's what the manager is looking for in that role and it's not really Baker.
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Post by LGH87 on May 16, 2023 10:28:45 GMT
My perception of Allen was that, barring a few goals early on, he generally made our midfield worse. And yet without him we served up the shite show of last season. Our best run of form under MON was when Joe was injured.
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Baker
May 16, 2023 10:38:48 GMT
via mobile
Post by st3mark on May 16, 2023 10:38:48 GMT
My perception of Allen was that, barring a few goals early on, he generally made our midfield worse. And yet without him we served up the shite show of last season. We finished between 14th and 16th in the last 5 seasons. Allen was here for 4 of them. The teams decline in the Premier league after his arrival was unprecedented. He was cursed. Decent bloke, great professional and gave 100%. But he was an albatross around our neck.
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Post by wakefieldstokie on May 16, 2023 10:54:09 GMT
And yet without him we served up the shite show of last season. We finished between 14th and 16th in the last 5 seasons. Allen was here for 4 of them. The teams decline in the Premier league after his arrival was unprecedented. He was cursed. Decent bloke, great professional and gave 100%. But he was an albatross around our neck. There’s been many issues/factors in our demise. Allen was number 56 in the list.
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Post by roylandstoke on May 16, 2023 11:48:23 GMT
And yet without him we served up the shite show of last season. And with him we served up the shite show of the ones before. We were awful with Allen and even worse without.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 16, 2023 11:50:37 GMT
And with him we served up the shite show of the ones before. We were awful with Allen and even worse without. When MON played a balanced midfield I thought we looked better without him.
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Baker
May 16, 2023 14:11:53 GMT
via mobile
Post by Staffsoatcake on May 16, 2023 14:11:53 GMT
Why can't we play him where he was scoring goals under MON?
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Baker
May 16, 2023 14:14:14 GMT
Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 16, 2023 14:14:14 GMT
Why can't we play him where he was scoring goals under MON? We were doing. Once Pearson arrived the choice was Baker or Laurent for the other role and we looked better with Laurent. Then Laurent reverted to type and Baker's form didn't get any better anyway.
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Baker
May 16, 2023 15:08:42 GMT
Post by pez75 on May 16, 2023 15:08:42 GMT
And with him we served up the shite show of the ones before. We were awful with Allen and even worse without. . Exactly. One player does not a team make. Still all his fault though...
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Post by dirtclod on May 16, 2023 15:31:58 GMT
And with him we served up the shite show of the ones before. We were awful with Allen and even worse without. Agree, we were terrible with or without. I never deduced what Allen was doing out there. (Other than running round everywhere because nobody else was stepping up) I didn't dislike Joe and loved his work rate, but he probably would have been better playing in a mobile, organized midfield for managers who knew what the hell they were doing - there was none of that here. Later on, looked like he'd blown a head gasket and possibly stripped his transmission. But holy hell, were we were so bad in most other positions on the pitch that I didn't see him as our "major" issue, just that he wasn't a good fit and it was time he moved on. To me, a baffling signing in the first place. Pearson showed me one thing we'd been missing. We obviously need a player like that but hope it doesn't cost us too much when we obviously need so much more everywhere on the pitch. We're a car left parked in the slum of the Championship - stripped of most parts and needing another extensive rebuild in order to get out of this bad neighborhood. And counting my blessings, thank God for that January window and short-lived "purple" patch or we'd have been in a relegation scrap and probably abandoned in Smurthwaite's front garden. Don't think we can rebuild in ONE transfer window. We can't afford a Ferrari engine, but am hoping we get something good enough to see us to a decent garage where we can finish off the repairs.
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Post by leicspotter on May 16, 2023 17:07:23 GMT
We were awful with Allen and even worse without. Agree, we were terrible with or without. I never deduced what Allen was doing out there. (Other than running round everywhere because nobody else was stepping up) I didn't dislike Joe and loved his work rate, but he probably would have been better playing in a mobile, organized midfield for managers who knew what the hell they were doing - there was none of that here. Later on, looked like he'd blown a head gasket and possibly stripped his transmission. But holy hell, were we were so bad in most other positions on the pitch that I didn't see him as our "major" issue, just that he wasn't a good fit and it was time he moved on. To me, a baffling signing in the first place. Pearson showed me one thing we'd been missing. We obviously need a player like that but hope it doesn't cost us too much when we obviously need so much more everywhere on the pitch. We're a car left parked in the slum of the Championship - stripped of most parts and needing another extensive rebuild in order to get out of this bad neighborhood. And counting my blessings, thank God for that January window and short-lived "purple" patch or we'd have been in a relegation scrap and probably abandoned in Smurthwaite's front garden. Don't think we can rebuild in ONE transfer window. We can't afford a Ferrari engine, but am hoping we get something good enough to see us to a decent garage where we can finish off the repairs. I'd be happy with an old diesel Land Rover, something that can still go for ever and do some heavy lifting
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Baker
May 16, 2023 17:40:45 GMT
via mobile
TinkerT likes this
Post by nonameface on May 16, 2023 17:40:45 GMT
We were awful with Allen and even worse without. When MON played a balanced midfield I thought we looked better without him. Big time. For the amount of games he played for us hes right up there as the worst player weve ever had when considering the money we spent on him. Awful. Laurent, Smallbone, Baker, Pearson have all consistently played better than him.
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Baker
May 17, 2023 11:04:56 GMT
Post by pez75 on May 17, 2023 11:04:56 GMT
When MON played a balanced midfield I thought we looked better without him. Big time. For the amount of games he played for us hes right up there as the worst player weve ever had when considering the money we spent on him. Awful. Laurent, Smallbone, Baker, Pearson have all consistently played better than him. Yet with their combined efforts they still couldnt better Allen's lowest finish?
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Baker
May 17, 2023 11:16:54 GMT
Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 17, 2023 11:16:54 GMT
Big time. For the amount of games he played for us hes right up there as the worst player weve ever had when considering the money we spent on him. Awful. Laurent, Smallbone, Baker, Pearson have all consistently played better than him. Yet with their combined efforts they still couldnt better Allen's lowest finish? What's that got to do with the price of fish?
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Post by PenkPonther on May 17, 2023 13:25:49 GMT
Hmm. So did "Joe Allen curse the club"? It's an oft-quoted opinion, but is it right? I'll post the evidence here that suggests otherwise... but I just wonder if even one of his detractors might then be open-minded enough to drop the blaming of him..? To begin with, it's often forgotten, but Stoke's 2015-2016 season ( before Joe joined us) ended with us in eye-catchingly bad form: W1, D1, L4, GF 5, GA 16
Then we signed Joe, and the 2016-2017 season started with a continuation of that bad form; W0, D1, L4, GF 3, GA 14
But then, lest we forget, JOE ALLEN scored our goal in a 1-1 draw against West Brom. The next game JOE ALLEN scored our goal in a 1-1 draw away at Man Utd. And the game after that, JOE ALLEN scored both goals in a 2-0 win over Sunderland. I watched with my own eyes, as he almost single-handedly took that team by the scruff of the neck, and got us back on track again. He finished that season with a respectable 6 league goals, (the same as Arnie, 2 more than Shaq, & just 1 behind top-scorer Crouch.) And Stoke too finished a perfectly respectable 13th; despite now having duds like Bony and Berahino on their books, and with the previous season's record signing Imbula having downed tools. Then the season after that, we (incredibly) lost Arnautovic, Bardsley, Joselu, Walters, Wollscheid, Whelan, Imbula, Bojan and Muniesa.And replaced them with the likes of Wimmer, D.Fletcher and Jese. That complete and utter clusterf*ck was why we were relegated. Not Joe Allen. And then in the league below, Rowett and Jones wasted a fortune on more utterly sh*t players, and the rest is history. Now believe it or not, I'm not a Joe Allen rimmer. I think he was a likeable player with a good work rate, but yeah; I've seen better. It's just enraging now, that he keeps getting blamed for our decline. Especially when our worst league season for position and points in the last 20 years was THIS ONE, ...which also happens to be our first season without... JOE ALLEN..! That's just one more fact to be considered. One of many. And God it would be lovely to finally put this debate to bed now.
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on May 17, 2023 13:30:21 GMT
Hmm. So did "Joe Allen curse the club"? It's an oft-quoted opinion, but is it right? I'll post the evidence here that suggests otherwise... but I just wonder if even one of his detractors might then be open-minded enough to drop the blaming of him..? To begin with, it's often forgotten, but Stoke's 2015-2016 season ( before Joe joined us) ended with us in eye-catchingly bad form: W1, D1, L4, GF 5, GA 16
Then we signed Joe, and the 2016-2017 season started with a continuation of that bad form; W0, D1, L4, GF 3, GA 14
But then, lest we forget, JOE ALLEN scored our goal in a 1-1 draw against West Brom. The next game JOE ALLEN scored our goal in a 1-1 draw away at Man Utd. And the game after that, JOE ALLEN scored both goals in a 2-0 win over Sunderland. I watched with my own eyes, as he almost single-handedly took that team by the scruff of the neck, and got us back on track again. He finished that season with a respectable 6 league goals, (the same as Arnie, 2 more than Shaq, & just 1 behind top-scorer Crouch.) And Stoke too finished a perfectly respectable 13th; despite now having duds like Bony and Berahino on their books, and with the previous season's record signing Imbula having downed tools. Then the season after that, we (incredibly) lost Arnautovic, Bardsley, Joselu, Walters, Wollscheid, Whelan, Imbula, Bojan and Muniesa.And replaced them with the likes of Wimmer, D.Fletcher and Jese. That complete and utter clusterf*ck was why we were relegated. Not Joe Allen. And then in the league below, Rowett and Jones wasted a fortune on more utterly sh*t players, and the rest is history. Now believe it or not, I'm not a Joe Allen rimmer. I think he was a likeable player with a good work rate, but yeah; I've seen better. It's just enraging now, that he keeps getting blamed for our decline. Especially when our worst league season for position and points in the last 20 years was THIS ONE, ...which also happens to be our first season without... JOE ALLEN..! That's just one more fact to be considered. One of many. And God it would be lovely to finally put this debate to bed now. Post of the century spot spot on
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Baker
May 17, 2023 15:07:23 GMT
Post by Los Alfareros on May 17, 2023 15:07:23 GMT
I like Bakes
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Post by peterthornesboots on May 17, 2023 15:12:45 GMT
Hmm. So did "Joe Allen curse the club"? It's an oft-quoted opinion, but is it right? I'll post the evidence here that suggests otherwise... but I just wonder if even one of his detractors might then be open-minded enough to drop the blaming of him..? To begin with, it's often forgotten, but Stoke's 2015-2016 season ( before Joe joined us) ended with us in eye-catchingly bad form: W1, D1, L4, GF 5, GA 16
Then we signed Joe, and the 2016-2017 season started with a continuation of that bad form; W0, D1, L4, GF 3, GA 14
But then, lest we forget, JOE ALLEN scored our goal in a 1-1 draw against West Brom. The next game JOE ALLEN scored our goal in a 1-1 draw away at Man Utd. And the game after that, JOE ALLEN scored both goals in a 2-0 win over Sunderland. I watched with my own eyes, as he almost single-handedly took that team by the scruff of the neck, and got us back on track again. He finished that season with a respectable 6 league goals, (the same as Arnie, 2 more than Shaq, & just 1 behind top-scorer Crouch.) And Stoke too finished a perfectly respectable 13th; despite now having duds like Bony and Berahino on their books, and with the previous season's record signing Imbula having downed tools. Then the season after that, we (incredibly) lost Arnautovic, Bardsley, Joselu, Walters, Wollscheid, Whelan, Imbula, Bojan and Muniesa.And replaced them with the likes of Wimmer, D.Fletcher and Jese. That complete and utter clusterf*ck was why we were relegated. Not Joe Allen. And then in the league below, Rowett and Jones wasted a fortune on more utterly sh*t players, and the rest is history. Now believe it or not, I'm not a Joe Allen rimmer. I think he was a likeable player with a good work rate, but yeah; I've seen better. It's just enraging now, that he keeps getting blamed for our decline. Especially when our worst league season for position and points in the last 20 years was THIS ONE, ...which also happens to be our first season without... JOE ALLEN..! That's just one more fact to be considered. One of many. And God it would be lovely to finally put this debate to bed now. Love this post. I always thought that much of the criticism of him was pretty harsh. He always gave his all. That is a hell of a lot more than what lots of other players have done in recent years.
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Post by onepara on May 17, 2023 15:33:38 GMT
Hmm. So did "Joe Allen curse the club"? It's an oft-quoted opinion, but is it right? I'll post the evidence here that suggests otherwise... but I just wonder if even one of his detractors might then be open-minded enough to drop the blaming of him..? To begin with, it's often forgotten, but Stoke's 2015-2016 season ( before Joe joined us) ended with us in eye-catchingly bad form: W1, D1, L4, GF 5, GA 16
Then we signed Joe, and the 2016-2017 season started with a continuation of that bad form; W0, D1, L4, GF 3, GA 14
But then, lest we forget, JOE ALLEN scored our goal in a 1-1 draw against West Brom. The next game JOE ALLEN scored our goal in a 1-1 draw away at Man Utd. And the game after that, JOE ALLEN scored both goals in a 2-0 win over Sunderland. I watched with my own eyes, as he almost single-handedly took that team by the scruff of the neck, and got us back on track again. He finished that season with a respectable 6 league goals, (the same as Arnie, 2 more than Shaq, & just 1 behind top-scorer Crouch.) And Stoke too finished a perfectly respectable 13th; despite now having duds like Bony and Berahino on their books, and with the previous season's record signing Imbula having downed tools. Then the season after that, we (incredibly) lost Arnautovic, Bardsley, Joselu, Walters, Wollscheid, Whelan, Imbula, Bojan and Muniesa.And replaced them with the likes of Wimmer, D.Fletcher and Jese. That complete and utter clusterf*ck was why we were relegated. Not Joe Allen. And then in the league below, Rowett and Jones wasted a fortune on more utterly sh*t players, and the rest is history. Now believe it or not, I'm not a Joe Allen rimmer. I think he was a likeable player with a good work rate, but yeah; I've seen better. It's just enraging now, that he keeps getting blamed for our decline. Especially when our worst league season for position and points in the last 20 years was THIS ONE, ...which also happens to be our first season without... JOE ALLEN..! That's just one more fact to be considered. One of many. And God it would be lovely to finally put this debate to bed now. I liked Joe, & thought that he always sacrificed himself for the team. Doing work for other players, & filling the gaps that they left. To the detriment of his own job (& reputation). Like Glen Whelan, who was also ripped apart by so-called supporters of this football club, on this MB. It's only now that some of those same supporters recognise his contribution. Baker looks half the player that he looked from when he had Joe 'minding' him. Giving him the space to play. A footballer doesn't play for his country as many times as Joe did, unless he has the ability. But this MB has to have someone to blame for the Clubs fall over the last years.
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Baker
May 17, 2023 15:53:10 GMT
Post by robwahlmann on May 17, 2023 15:53:10 GMT
Baker and Gayle our highest earners for next season and both being bench players I think! Could we get rid in any way?
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 17, 2023 16:09:31 GMT
Hmm. So did "Joe Allen curse the club"? It's an oft-quoted opinion, but is it right? I'll post the evidence here that suggests otherwise... but I just wonder if even one of his detractors might then be open-minded enough to drop the blaming of him..? To begin with, it's often forgotten, but Stoke's 2015-2016 season ( before Joe joined us) ended with us in eye-catchingly bad form: W1, D1, L4, GF 5, GA 16
Then we signed Joe, and the 2016-2017 season started with a continuation of that bad form; W0, D1, L4, GF 3, GA 14
But then, lest we forget, JOE ALLEN scored our goal in a 1-1 draw against West Brom. The next game JOE ALLEN scored our goal in a 1-1 draw away at Man Utd. And the game after that, JOE ALLEN scored both goals in a 2-0 win over Sunderland. I watched with my own eyes, as he almost single-handedly took that team by the scruff of the neck, and got us back on track again. He finished that season with a respectable 6 league goals, (the same as Arnie, 2 more than Shaq, & just 1 behind top-scorer Crouch.) And Stoke too finished a perfectly respectable 13th; despite now having duds like Bony and Berahino on their books, and with the previous season's record signing Imbula having downed tools. Then the season after that, we (incredibly) lost Arnautovic, Bardsley, Joselu, Walters, Wollscheid, Whelan, Imbula, Bojan and Muniesa.And replaced them with the likes of Wimmer, D.Fletcher and Jese. That complete and utter clusterf*ck was why we were relegated. Not Joe Allen. And then in the league below, Rowett and Jones wasted a fortune on more utterly sh*t players, and the rest is history. Now believe it or not, I'm not a Joe Allen rimmer. I think he was a likeable player with a good work rate, but yeah; I've seen better. It's just enraging now, that he keeps getting blamed for our decline. Especially when our worst league season for position and points in the last 20 years was THIS ONE, ...which also happens to be our first season without... JOE ALLEN..! That's just one more fact to be considered. One of many. And God it would be lovely to finally put this debate to bed now. Love this post. I always thought that much of the criticism of him was pretty harsh. He always gave his all. That is a hell of a lot more than what lots of other players have done in recent years. He cost 12/15m. We should be judging him on more than giving his fucking all. It’s pathetic.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2023 16:58:07 GMT
Hmm. So did "Joe Allen curse the club"? It's an oft-quoted opinion, but is it right? I'll post the evidence here that suggests otherwise... but I just wonder if even one of his detractors might then be open-minded enough to drop the blaming of him..? To begin with, it's often forgotten, but Stoke's 2015-2016 season ( before Joe joined us) ended with us in eye-catchingly bad form: W1, D1, L4, GF 5, GA 16
Then we signed Joe, and the 2016-2017 season started with a continuation of that bad form; W0, D1, L4, GF 3, GA 14
But then, lest we forget, JOE ALLEN scored our goal in a 1-1 draw against West Brom. The next game JOE ALLEN scored our goal in a 1-1 draw away at Man Utd. And the game after that, JOE ALLEN scored both goals in a 2-0 win over Sunderland. I watched with my own eyes, as he almost single-handedly took that team by the scruff of the neck, and got us back on track again. He finished that season with a respectable 6 league goals, (the same as Arnie, 2 more than Shaq, & just 1 behind top-scorer Crouch.) And Stoke too finished a perfectly respectable 13th; despite now having duds like Bony and Berahino on their books, and with the previous season's record signing Imbula having downed tools. Then the season after that, we (incredibly) lost Arnautovic, Bardsley, Joselu, Walters, Wollscheid, Whelan, Imbula, Bojan and Muniesa.And replaced them with the likes of Wimmer, D.Fletcher and Jese. That complete and utter clusterf*ck was why we were relegated. Not Joe Allen. And then in the league below, Rowett and Jones wasted a fortune on more utterly sh*t players, and the rest is history. Now believe it or not, I'm not a Joe Allen rimmer. I think he was a likeable player with a good work rate, but yeah; I've seen better. It's just enraging now, that he keeps getting blamed for our decline. Especially when our worst league season for position and points in the last 20 years was THIS ONE, ...which also happens to be our first season without... JOE ALLEN..! That's just one more fact to be considered. One of many. And God it would be lovely to finally put this debate to bed now. He didn't curse the club, but he was fucking awful for 6 seasons. He scored some goals (in poor performances or against poor teams) but he massively decreased creativity, even in the first season, and his move into the number 10 role was just incredibly cowardly from Hughes. His pressing was so unintelligent that it forced the rest of our midfield (which was poor anyway, granted) to try to compensate for him, and when he did drop deeper he did nothing but make mistakes and put pressure on his teammates with his lack of on-pitch intelligence. I don't believe he was the cause of the decline, but he was lauded as a superhero whilst playing absolutely awfully for 6 seasons and earning more than anyone else in the championship. He hid during games, committed stupid fouls, couldn't pass, couldn't shoot, couldn't tackle or control the ball, and his positioning was genuinely appalling. He is the epitome of a footballer who looks like he's doing lots whilst actually making life harder for everyone else. The modern game is about how well you fit into the team structure, especially as a midfielder, and Allen made everyone around him worse whilst contributing next to nothing. EDIT - this, from last summer, was particularly fun vimeo.com/723864375?share=copy
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Post by lordb on May 17, 2023 17:07:36 GMT
Hmm. So did "Joe Allen curse the club"? It's an oft-quoted opinion, but is it right? I'll post the evidence here that suggests otherwise... but I just wonder if even one of his detractors might then be open-minded enough to drop the blaming of him..? To begin with, it's often forgotten, but Stoke's 2015-2016 season ( before Joe joined us) ended with us in eye-catchingly bad form: W1, D1, L4, GF 5, GA 16
Then we signed Joe, and the 2016-2017 season started with a continuation of that bad form; W0, D1, L4, GF 3, GA 14
But then, lest we forget, JOE ALLEN scored our goal in a 1-1 draw against West Brom. The next game JOE ALLEN scored our goal in a 1-1 draw away at Man Utd. And the game after that, JOE ALLEN scored both goals in a 2-0 win over Sunderland. I watched with my own eyes, as he almost single-handedly took that team by the scruff of the neck, and got us back on track again. He finished that season with a respectable 6 league goals, (the same as Arnie, 2 more than Shaq, & just 1 behind top-scorer Crouch.) And Stoke too finished a perfectly respectable 13th; despite now having duds like Bony and Berahino on their books, and with the previous season's record signing Imbula having downed tools. Then the season after that, we (incredibly) lost Arnautovic, Bardsley, Joselu, Walters, Wollscheid, Whelan, Imbula, Bojan and Muniesa.And replaced them with the likes of Wimmer, D.Fletcher and Jese. That complete and utter clusterf*ck was why we were relegated. Not Joe Allen. And then in the league below, Rowett and Jones wasted a fortune on more utterly sh*t players, and the rest is history. Now believe it or not, I'm not a Joe Allen rimmer. I think he was a likeable player with a good work rate, but yeah; I've seen better. It's just enraging now, that he keeps getting blamed for our decline. Especially when our worst league season for position and points in the last 20 years was THIS ONE, ...which also happens to be our first season without... JOE ALLEN..! That's just one more fact to be considered. One of many. And God it would be lovely to finally put this debate to bed now. He didn't curse the club, but he was fucking awful for 6 seasons. He scored some goals (in poor performances or against poor teams) but he massively decreased creativity, even in the first season, and his move into the number 10 role was just incredibly cowardly from Hughes. His pressing was so unintelligent that it forced the rest of our midfield (which was poor anyway, granted) to try to compensate for him, and when he did drop deeper he did nothing but make mistakes and put pressure on his teammates with his lack of on-pitch intelligence. I don't believe he was the cause of the decline, but he was lauded as a superhero whilst playing absolutely awfully for 6 seasons and earning more than anyone else in the championship. He hid during games, committed stupid fouls, couldn't pass, couldn't shoot, couldn't tackle or control the ball, and his positioning was genuinely appalling. He is the epitome of a footballer who looks like he's doing lots whilst actually making life harder for everyone else. The modern game is about how well you fit into the team structure, especially as a midfielder, and Allen made everyone around him worse whilst contributing next to nothing. EDIT - this, from last summer, was particularly fun vimeo.com/723864375?share=copyThe one thing he never did was hide Always available for a pass, sometimes at the expense of defending his area
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2023 17:10:34 GMT
He didn't curse the club, but he was fucking awful for 6 seasons. He scored some goals (in poor performances or against poor teams) but he massively decreased creativity, even in the first season, and his move into the number 10 role was just incredibly cowardly from Hughes. His pressing was so unintelligent that it forced the rest of our midfield (which was poor anyway, granted) to try to compensate for him, and when he did drop deeper he did nothing but make mistakes and put pressure on his teammates with his lack of on-pitch intelligence. I don't believe he was the cause of the decline, but he was lauded as a superhero whilst playing absolutely awfully for 6 seasons and earning more than anyone else in the championship. He hid during games, committed stupid fouls, couldn't pass, couldn't shoot, couldn't tackle or control the ball, and his positioning was genuinely appalling. He is the epitome of a footballer who looks like he's doing lots whilst actually making life harder for everyone else. The modern game is about how well you fit into the team structure, especially as a midfielder, and Allen made everyone around him worse whilst contributing next to nothing. EDIT - this, from last summer, was particularly fun vimeo.com/723864375?share=copyThe one thing he never did was hide Always available for a pass, sometimes at the expense of defending his area I have to disagree, I remember especially that Wigan at home game under Rowett where he and Fletcher sat behind players. For me, a lot of our 'why are we passing sideways and backwards?' issues of the past 6 years came from Allen hiding, not finding space, or being unable to take the ball on the half turn.
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Baker
May 17, 2023 22:31:02 GMT
Post by shakermaker on May 17, 2023 22:31:02 GMT
I think Smallbone only started playing further forward when we stopped playing three centre halves, two wing backs and two forwards. My memory is awful but I think pre Pearson and when Laurent got injured we were trying to play Smallbone and Baker as the two midfielders which was never going to work. I am not saying Baker could have taken Smallbone's role but he was replaced by him as the free roaming, intercepting and late arriving role which he played last season. Yes I think the role changed a bit. Under MON he was the number 8, the one who could theoretically pull the strings from a bit deeper or, as you say, push forward to arrive late or have a pop from distance. Allen was the 6 doing the dirty work, Powell, when fit, the 10. Neil tasked him with the deeper role as you say, which didn't really suit him, though he has played it before elsewhere. Smallbone I think was always the one with the freedom to push forward more as the most attacking role, but Laurent then became the 8, and during his run of good form looked much more like a Neil player in carrying the ball forward. I think that's what the manager is looking for in that role and it's not really Baker. One thing that stands out comparing games with Allen and Baker vs games with Pearson and Laurent...Yes, Laurent carried the ball forward far more than Baker did... But Baker's range of forward passing was better than Laurent. I think Baker can be used tactically in certain games where we need to unpick a team's defending, we can change formation in game to place Baker back in the same position he played under MON where his passing range can be exploited.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 17, 2023 22:48:16 GMT
Yes I think the role changed a bit. Under MON he was the number 8, the one who could theoretically pull the strings from a bit deeper or, as you say, push forward to arrive late or have a pop from distance. Allen was the 6 doing the dirty work, Powell, when fit, the 10. Neil tasked him with the deeper role as you say, which didn't really suit him, though he has played it before elsewhere. Smallbone I think was always the one with the freedom to push forward more as the most attacking role, but Laurent then became the 8, and during his run of good form looked much more like a Neil player in carrying the ball forward. I think that's what the manager is looking for in that role and it's not really Baker. One thing that stands out comparing games with Allen and Baker vs games with Pearson and Laurent...Yes, Laurent carried the ball forward far more than Baker did... But Baker's range of forward passing was better than Laurent. I think Baker can be used tactically in certain games where we need to unpick a team's defending, we can change formation in game to place Baker back in the same position he played under MON where his passing range can be exploited. I get the feeling ‘passing range’ isn’t something AN is too fussed about in that position though. He’s about energy and dynamism and being direct.
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Baker
May 17, 2023 23:02:49 GMT
Post by shakermaker on May 17, 2023 23:02:49 GMT
One thing that stands out comparing games with Allen and Baker vs games with Pearson and Laurent...Yes, Laurent carried the ball forward far more than Baker did... But Baker's range of forward passing was better than Laurent. I think Baker can be used tactically in certain games where we need to unpick a team's defending, we can change formation in game to place Baker back in the same position he played under MON where his passing range can be exploited. I get the feeling ‘passing range’ isn’t something AN is too fussed about in that position though. He’s about energy and dynamism and being direct. That is Neil's Plan A. He never seems to have a Plan B up his sleeve though and hopefully as he mulls over one during the summer, he can figure Baker into a Plan B.
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Post by pushon on May 17, 2023 23:32:09 GMT
It'll be interesting to see if (and who) is brought in as the Smallbone replacement. Laurents best position seems to be box to box and he doesn't hide from a 'scrap'. Smallbone,to me, seemed to shy away from physical conflict, but was always hunting the ball. Baker is also not too good at physical challenges, but much more capable, than Smallbone, at creating/executing a scoring attempt. I'd certainly keep him on as the potential attacking/goalscoring midfield option.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 18, 2023 7:02:27 GMT
I get the feeling ‘passing range’ isn’t something AN is too fussed about in that position though. He’s about energy and dynamism and being direct. That is Neil's Plan A. He never seems to have a Plan B up his sleeve though and hopefully as he mulls over one during the summer, he can figure Baker into a Plan B. Few managers do tbf. Agree it would be good to have one, we certainly need something to break teams down at home.
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