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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 9, 2023 10:20:45 GMT
It would be a bigger surprise if Baker and Tymon didn't want to leave. Neither fits the manager's system, at least one if not both had been in decline well before Neil rocked up.
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Baker
May 9, 2023 10:24:24 GMT
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Post by theonlooker on May 9, 2023 10:24:24 GMT
The shock that players who have spent more than 5 minutes in a room with this manager, and don't want to come back and work with him, is very real ...not! I have no idea what Neil is like with the players, but I think in this case there is more than enough other reasons for Baker to leave. Not sure I'd go straight to thinking Neil is one of them. Barely playing, a team that needs a big rebuild, a style that probably isn't suited to him, and a fanbase that boos him when he's subbed on or takes a bit of a shit free kick. I can't blame him for wanting out at all. Agreed. Was talking about the loanees. Can see why both Tymon and Baker would want out of the club outside of any potential issues with the manager.
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Post by prestwichpotter on May 9, 2023 10:27:07 GMT
It would be a bigger surprise if Baker and Tymon didn't want to leave. Neither fits the manager's system, at least one if not both had been in decline well before Neil rocked up. Tymon and Baker were largely decent last season, are you talking about a 5 game decline before MON was sacked (Tymon was injured for 2 of them) or something longer?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 9, 2023 10:30:24 GMT
It would be a bigger surprise if Baker and Tymon didn't want to leave. Neither fits the manager's system, at least one if not both had been in decline well before Neil rocked up. Tymon and Baker were largely decent last season, are you talking about a 5 game decline before MON was sacked (Tymon was injured for 2 of them) or something longer? I'm talking about Baker's performances tailing off well before the end of last season, imo the goals masked a number of anonymous performances.
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Post by prestwichpotter on May 9, 2023 10:43:52 GMT
Tymon and Baker were largely decent last season, are you talking about a 5 game decline before MON was sacked (Tymon was injured for 2 of them) or something longer? I'm talking about Baker's performances tailing off well before the end of last season, imo the goals masked a number of anonymous performances. I'm not sure you can score or create a goal and be "anonymous" can you? He had a few average performances absolutely but even towards the end of the season a couple of really good ones such as Blackburn and West Brom away. I certainly wouldn't use the word "decline"..............
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Baker
May 9, 2023 10:51:25 GMT
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Post by TinkerT on May 9, 2023 10:51:25 GMT
I'm talking about Baker's performances tailing off well before the end of last season, imo the goals masked a number of anonymous performances. I'm not sure you can score or create a goal and be "anonymous" can you? He had a few average performances absolutely but even towards the end of the season a couple of really good ones such as Blackburn and West Brom away. I certainly wouldn't use the word "decline".............. It's been years since we had a genuine threat from centre midfield and with our shit strike force we need goals from everywhere else on the pitch. Hopefully him and Alex can sort things out over the summer.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 9, 2023 10:53:29 GMT
I'm talking about Baker's performances tailing off well before the end of last season, imo the goals masked a number of anonymous performances. I'm not sure you can score or create a goal and be "anonymous" can you? He had a few average performances absolutely but even towards the end of the season a couple of really good ones such as Blackburn and West Brom away. I certainly wouldn't use the word "decline".............. Are we going to quibble about semantics this early? If we went with 'largely anonymous', would you be happier with that? It's entirely possible to be largely anonymous or even actively bad for the bulk of a game and still score or create a goal. I think he had a fair few games where his overall performance left a lot to be desired and that carried over into this season even before Neil arrived.
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Post by prestwichpotter on May 9, 2023 10:57:35 GMT
I'm not sure you can score or create a goal and be "anonymous" can you? He had a few average performances absolutely but even towards the end of the season a couple of really good ones such as Blackburn and West Brom away. I certainly wouldn't use the word "decline".............. Are we going to quibble about semantics this early? If we went with 'largely anonymous', would you be happier with that? It's entirely possible to be largely anonymous or even actively bad for the bulk of a game and still score or create a goal. I think he had a fair few games where his overall performance left a lot to be desired and that carried over into this season even before Neil arrived. It's not semantics as I don't believe he was "anonymous" or "largely anonymous" and he certainly wasn't in "decline". He was a player who had far more influencial games than ones that passed him by. You could absolutely argue that he has been in decline under Neil though, as have Tymon, Jagielka and Powell for whatever reasons.
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on May 9, 2023 11:16:59 GMT
Bakers half season last season was as good as anything we've seen for a long time. Lethal finisher, better than Smallbone. Surely he'll be desperate to move and there will be takers based on what he did when he first came here
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Post by dirtygary69 on May 9, 2023 11:28:23 GMT
Bakers half season last season was as good as anything we've seen for a long time. Lethal finisher, better than Smallbone. Surely he'll be desperate to move and there will be takers based on what he did when he first came here Yes, his incredible run of form upon signing was brilliant, but the downturn in his performances is just as incredible. From 10/10 to 3/10 within a few months. If he can get back "on it" and work out a way of getting into Neil's favour, we still have a real player on our books. Unfortunately, that looks a million miles away and his career so far would point towards him moving on.
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Post by prestwichpotter on May 9, 2023 11:32:52 GMT
Bakers half season last season was as good as anything we've seen for a long time. Lethal finisher, better than Smallbone. Surely he'll be desperate to move and there will be takers based on what he did when he first came here Yes, his incredible run of form upon signing was brilliant, but the downturn in his performances is just as incredible. From 10/10 to 3/10 within a few months. If he can get back "on it" and work out a way of getting into Neil's favour, we still have a real player on our books. Unfortunately, that looks a million miles away and his career so far would point towards him moving on. 15 minute cameos are tough, it's largely all he's had for half a season. His last 90 minute game was the 4-0 demolition of Reading when he played really well. You can't tell me in a 4-3-3 Baker wouldn't have been a better option at home next to Pearson and Laurent when we struggle to break teams down who play a low block, especially when he is capable of a goal or assist out of nothing. Smallbone away for his pressing in the same system I get but to not utilise Baker was poor from the manager in my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2023 11:32:55 GMT
Bakers half season last season was as good as anything we've seen for a long time. Lethal finisher, better than Smallbone. Surely he'll be desperate to move and there will be takers based on what he did when he first came here Yes, his incredible run of form upon signing was brilliant, but the downturn in his performances is just as incredible. From 10/10 to 3/10 within a few months. If he can get back "on it" and work out a way of getting into Neil's favour, we still have a real player on our books. Unfortunately, that looks a million miles away and his career so far would point towards him moving on. I think he was always a player who wasn't incredibly involved in matches to be honest, it's just that when he doesn't score that's showed up a bit. He's still our joint-2nd top scorer this season.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 9, 2023 12:52:12 GMT
Are we going to quibble about semantics this early? If we went with 'largely anonymous', would you be happier with that? It's entirely possible to be largely anonymous or even actively bad for the bulk of a game and still score or create a goal. I think he had a fair few games where his overall performance left a lot to be desired and that carried over into this season even before Neil arrived. It's not semantics as I don't believe he was "anonymous" or "largely anonymous" and he certainly wasn't in "decline". He was a player who had far more influencial games than ones that passed him by. You could absolutely argue that he has been in decline under Neil though, as have Tymon, Jagielka and Powell for whatever reasons. It absolutely is semantics to suggest a player can't be anonymous and score or create a goal. There were quite a few games where he was largely anonymous last season imo, including some of the disappointing home defeats in the spring and the games where he was tried at no 10 and looked a shadow of himself. I realise that doesn't fit the narrative some have on here that naughty old Alex Neil has broken all Michael O'Neil's toys, but I don't think it's quite that simple.
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Baker
May 9, 2023 13:18:14 GMT
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LGH87 likes this
Post by miltonpotter on May 9, 2023 13:18:14 GMT
How do you know Tymon and Baker want to leave and the loan lads don’t want to return, have you spoken to them all one on one? He speaks to Clucas whilst walking his dog. I’m gonna miss our walks..
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Post by ceejays on May 9, 2023 13:55:18 GMT
I can’t remember the game but I did mention it on here at the time AN and Baker walked off the pitch together. All the way AN was trying to make some tactical point and was quite animated . Baker was giving him the yeah yeah treatment. Rolling his eyes . Before you ask how I know that the camera zoomed in on Baker . He was clearly pissed off with AN so obviously there had been differences of opinion beforehand. Baker has not played a full match since . Bringing him on with 15 minutes to go is bizarre.Man management failure is my conclusion. But who knows perhaps Baker is another Powell . A legend in his own mind and lunch break
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Baker
May 9, 2023 14:13:38 GMT
Post by bunnyscfc on May 9, 2023 14:13:38 GMT
Yes, his incredible run of form upon signing was brilliant, but the downturn in his performances is just as incredible. From 10/10 to 3/10 within a few months. If he can get back "on it" and work out a way of getting into Neil's favour, we still have a real player on our books. Unfortunately, that looks a million miles away and his career so far would point towards him moving on. 15 minute cameos are tough, it's largely all he's had for half a season. His last 90 minute game was the 4-0 demolition of Reading when he played really well. You can't tell me in a 4-3-3 Baker wouldn't have been a better option at home next to Pearson and Laurent when we struggle to break teams down who play a low block, especially when he is capable of a goal or assist out of nothing. Smallbone away for his pressing in the same system I get but to not utilise Baker was poor from the manager in my opinion. Absolutely spot on. Was poor, and yet still had as good a season as Smallbone when it comes down to creating and scoring. When a #10's best attribute is pressing then he has numerous gaps in a #10 skillset
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Post by prestwichpotter on May 9, 2023 14:31:14 GMT
It's not semantics as I don't believe he was "anonymous" or "largely anonymous" and he certainly wasn't in "decline". He was a player who had far more influencial games than ones that passed him by. You could absolutely argue that he has been in decline under Neil though, as have Tymon, Jagielka and Powell for whatever reasons. It absolutely is semantics to suggest a player can't be anonymous and score or create a goal. There were quite a few games where he was largely anonymous last season imo, including some of the disappointing home defeats in the spring and the games where he was tried at no 10 and looked a shadow of himself. I realise that doesn't fit the narrative some have on here that naughty old Alex Neil has broken all Michael O'Neil's toys, but I don't think it's quite that simple. I can only speak for myself, that’s not a narrative I’m peddling. Tymon, Baker and Powell have been a complete shadow this season compared to last, if Neil was unwilling or unable to get the best out of them that’s as much on him as it is the players.
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Baker
May 9, 2023 14:53:19 GMT
Post by dirtygary69 on May 9, 2023 14:53:19 GMT
Yes, his incredible run of form upon signing was brilliant, but the downturn in his performances is just as incredible. From 10/10 to 3/10 within a few months. If he can get back "on it" and work out a way of getting into Neil's favour, we still have a real player on our books. Unfortunately, that looks a million miles away and his career so far would point towards him moving on. 15 minute cameos are tough, it's largely all he's had for half a season. His last 90 minute game was the 4-0 demolition of Reading when he played really well. You can't tell me in a 4-3-3 Baker wouldn't have been a better option at home next to Pearson and Laurent when we struggle to break teams down who play a low block, especially when he is capable of a goal or assist out of nothing. Smallbone away for his pressing in the same system I get but to not utilise Baker was poor from the manager in my opinion. In an ideal world, yes of course, but that clearly was never going to be the case so there's no real point arguing or suggesting otherwise. The lack of game time, even when players were being rested, shows that Neil doesn't rate Baker or that there has been a falling out of some nature. It's another black mark against Neil for me too, as he's clearly lost certain players when you have to manage what you have, especially with a squad as limited as ours. Could he have been used more? Definitely. Should he have been? I don't know, but there was clearly something stopping the manager from doing so.
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Post by canadianmoose on May 9, 2023 15:03:46 GMT
Baker was on the way down long before AN arrived.
Another one that thinks hes the 'superstar'
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Baker
May 9, 2023 15:10:38 GMT
Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 9, 2023 15:10:38 GMT
It absolutely is semantics to suggest a player can't be anonymous and score or create a goal. There were quite a few games where he was largely anonymous last season imo, including some of the disappointing home defeats in the spring and the games where he was tried at no 10 and looked a shadow of himself. I realise that doesn't fit the narrative some have on here that naughty old Alex Neil has broken all Michael O'Neil's toys, but I don't think it's quite that simple. I can only speak for myself, that’s not a narrative I’m peddling. Tymon, Baker and Powell have been a complete shadow this season compared to last, if Neil was unwilling or unable to get the best out of them that’s as much on him as it is the players. I think all three players to a certain extend are victims of a change in style, which will often happen when you appoint a manager wildly different to his predecessor. Two of the three have struggled for fitness as well. Of the three though, I'd argue Baker in particular hasn't suddenly started playing badly out of nowhere this season and that the invisible man routine started around spring last season.
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Baker
May 9, 2023 15:12:26 GMT
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Post by GeneralFaye on May 9, 2023 15:12:26 GMT
He's basically a wish Dele Alli. Totally ineffective unless he's sticking the ball in the net and you just knew that kind of run wasn't going to last.
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Baker
May 9, 2023 15:19:38 GMT
Post by Pugsley on May 9, 2023 15:19:38 GMT
Baker has the talent but none of the application required to make a good footballer. He's had more clubs than... well you know
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Baker
May 9, 2023 15:28:39 GMT
Post by spiderpuss on May 9, 2023 15:28:39 GMT
Baker has the talent but none of the application required to make a good footballer. He's had more clubs than... well you know Didn't realise that until recently. He's not really had a permanent club (I'm not counting Chelsea as he's never appeared for them at 1st team level) until us. . He was obviously given a very good long deal at Chelsea at some point and they have never wanted to use him since. A very odd situation. It's like he's been on loan for 10 years!
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Baker
May 9, 2023 18:00:48 GMT
Post by benjaminbiscuit on May 9, 2023 18:00:48 GMT
There's no mention of anything just random words jumbled with extremely poor spelling 😂😂😂 An but im not dreaming up imaginary comments about Jordan Thomson , perhaps they will out us in adjoining beds
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Baker
May 9, 2023 18:11:15 GMT
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Post by thehartshillbadger on May 9, 2023 18:11:15 GMT
Baker has the talent but none of the application required to make a good footballer. He's had more clubs than... well you know Peter Stringfellow?
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Post by wakeypotter on May 9, 2023 18:41:15 GMT
Baker has the talent but none of the application required to make a good footballer. He's had more clubs than... well you know Peter Stringfellow? No that’s Fanny’s mate
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Baker
May 9, 2023 19:51:14 GMT
Post by Trouserdog on May 9, 2023 19:51:14 GMT
Baker's decline may have far more to do with him than it has to do with Alex Neil.
Some players just don't have it in them to care/work hard/better themselves/ take responsibility etc. They're the kind of footballers that TP would avoid signing or get rid of at the earliest opportunity.
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Post by Olgrligm on May 9, 2023 20:02:24 GMT
I think Baker's decline has been fairly straightforward.
I watched him closely last season when he was pretty much undroppable. I felt that he struggled to affect the game very much unless he scored, which he was doing with some regularity. However, he got a massive return from opportunities that would ordinarily have a very small chance of going in. That's not sustainable long term and the goals dried up. Without the goals, we were left with a player who didn't really impact a game.
I think he's better in the more advanced position in midfield but he really needs to improve his ability to take part in the press.
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Post by LGH87 on May 9, 2023 22:39:04 GMT
Tyrese Campbell has posted a pic of the pair of them on his insta story tonight, with the caption:
Skip ❤️
Seems a bit of an odd post, unless something is afoot maybe?
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Baker
May 9, 2023 22:43:07 GMT
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Post by gawa on May 9, 2023 22:43:07 GMT
Knows how to take a shot from outside the box. Scored a few long range screamers and free kicks last season and possibly the beginning of this one too.
Personally I think he was overplayed in the first half of the season. By the world cup he had played nearly every minute of the season. And that was during a very hectic schedule as there were a lot of 2 game weeks due to the world cup break.
With a good pre season he will do a good job at this level.
I also think having only been appointed captain not long before MON left that he's probably been put in a challenging position in terms of handling team morale and AN expectations. Probably was getting it from both ends.
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