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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 14, 2023 9:28:28 GMT
Classic No 10’s are not having teams built around them they’re closer to becoming extinct, certainly endangered in the age of flatter 3 man central midfields. We don't play with a flat 3 man midfield - Pearson sits, Laurent plays box to box and Smallbone floats behind the forwards. Having said that I'm not sure we need a classic no 10 in that setup either - the central striker needs to lead the line, the Smallbone midfielder role is doing the no 10 stuff. Powell isn't a lead the line forward and we need to upgrade on Gayle who unfortunately isn't the player he was. If anything Powell is in competition with Smallbone for that midfield role and clearly Neil rates Smallbone more highly. I just can't see Neil offering Powell a new contract - his injury record isn't good and if Neil has the choice he's picking Smallbone in his natural position and Gayle in his makeshift position. Smallbone is neither a No10 nor AM thus it's a flatter midfield than if we played one.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Apr 14, 2023 10:06:37 GMT
We don't play with a flat 3 man midfield - Pearson sits, Laurent plays box to box and Smallbone floats behind the forwards. Having said that I'm not sure we need a classic no 10 in that setup either - the central striker needs to lead the line, the Smallbone midfielder role is doing the no 10 stuff. Powell isn't a lead the line forward and we need to upgrade on Gayle who unfortunately isn't the player he was. If anything Powell is in competition with Smallbone for that midfield role and clearly Neil rates Smallbone more highly. I just can't see Neil offering Powell a new contract - his injury record isn't good and if Neil has the choice he's picking Smallbone in his natural position and Gayle in his makeshift position. Smallbone is neither a No10 nor AM thus it's a flatter midfield than if we played one. I didn't say he was a number 10 - he's the most advanced of the midfielders and if anyone does the work of a no 10 he does. There is absolutely no way we play a flat midfield. Smallbone rarely covers (which is fine, not his role), Pearson always covers and never gets forward and Laurent is box to box. It couldn't be less flat.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 14, 2023 10:46:35 GMT
Smallbone is neither a No10 nor AM thus it's a flatter midfield than if we played one. I didn't say he was a number 10 - he's the most advanced of the midfielders and if anyone does the work of a no 10 he does. There is absolutely no way we play a flat midfield. Smallbone rarely covers (which is fine, not his role), Pearson always covers and never gets forward and Laurent is box to box. It couldn't be less flat. Talking horseshite as per Pearson does not just sit and Smallbone covers loads thats why his running metrics are so important to AN it's far more of a flexible 1:2 pivot than you're trying to make out. If Smallbone was an AM or No 10 his running data would be far less important than his goals/assists data. By your definition Smallbone is failing spectacularly and whist I might often agree with that AN and loads of manager/coaches who field these flatter midfield 3's obviously don't.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Apr 14, 2023 13:23:35 GMT
I didn't say he was a number 10 - he's the most advanced of the midfielders and if anyone does the work of a no 10 he does. There is absolutely no way we play a flat midfield. Smallbone rarely covers (which is fine, not his role), Pearson always covers and never gets forward and Laurent is box to box. It couldn't be less flat. Talking horseshite as per Pearson does not just sit and Smallbone covers loads thats why his running metrics are so important to AN it's far more of a flexible 1:2 pivot than you're trying to make out. If Smallbone was an AM or No 10 his running data would be far less important than his goals/assists data. By your definition Smallbone is failing spectacularly and whist I might often agree with that AN and loads of manager/coaches who field these flatter midfield 3's obviously don't. It's not a 1:2 pivot. If anything the default shape is 2:1. Pearson sits to allow Laurent to bomb forward. Smallbone generally stays forward and comes back when we're under pressure. Smallbone and Pearson cover ground left-right and Laurent mainly covers ground back- forward. The last thing the shape of the midfield is flat. The starting positions are 4231 with Laurent and Pearson deep and Smallbone supporting the forwards - see the lineup tab for the last game against Birmingham www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65159319. Neil does not play a flat 3 midfield.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 14, 2023 13:29:40 GMT
Talking horseshite as per Pearson does not just sit and Smallbone covers loads thats why his running metrics are so important to AN it's far more of a flexible 1:2 pivot than you're trying to make out. If Smallbone was an AM or No 10 his running data would be far less important than his goals/assists data. By your definition Smallbone is failing spectacularly and whist I might often agree with that AN and loads of manager/coaches who field these flatter midfield 3's obviously don't. It's not a 1:2 pivot. If anything the default shape is 2:1. Pearson sits to allow Laurent to bomb forward. Smallbone generally stays forward and comes back when we're under pressure. Smallbone and Pearson cover ground left-right and Laurent mainly covers ground back- forward. The last thing the shape of the midfield is flat. The starting positions are 4231 with Laurent and Pearson deep and Smallbone supporting the forwards - see the lineup tab for the last game against Birmingham www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65159319. Neil does not play a flat 3 midfield. As I said if Smallbone is an AM he's failing spectacularly.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Apr 14, 2023 14:27:07 GMT
It's not a 1:2 pivot. If anything the default shape is 2:1. Pearson sits to allow Laurent to bomb forward. Smallbone generally stays forward and comes back when we're under pressure. Smallbone and Pearson cover ground left-right and Laurent mainly covers ground back- forward. The last thing the shape of the midfield is flat. The starting positions are 4231 with Laurent and Pearson deep and Smallbone supporting the forwards - see the lineup tab for the last game against Birmingham www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65159319. Neil does not play a flat 3 midfield. As I said if Smallbone is an AM he's failing spectacularly. Whether Smallbone is failing or not as an AM isn't relevant to whether Neil plays a flat 3 in midfield. Neil does not play a flat 3 in midfield.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 14, 2023 18:13:03 GMT
As I said if Smallbone is an AM he's failing spectacularly. Whether Smallbone is failing or not as an AM isn't relevant to whether Neil plays a flat 3 in midfield. Neil does not play a flat 3 in midfield. He isn't failing as an AM because he doesn't play as one.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Apr 15, 2023 6:56:19 GMT
Whether Smallbone is failing or not as an AM isn't relevant to whether Neil plays a flat 3 in midfield. Neil does not play a flat 3 in midfield. He isn't failing as an AM because he doesn't play as one. He plays across the pitch further forward than Laurent and Pearson supporting the forwards. Pearson sits and Laurent plays box to box. They don't play in a line and each has their own job. Whatever you call Smallbone the fact remains the midfield is not a flat 3 - Smallbone plays in an advanced position and Pearson protects the defence. For the majority of the game the midfield do not play in a line - which is what would happen if they were to play as a flat 3.
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Post by Gabrielzakuaniandjuliet on Apr 15, 2023 7:00:57 GMT
I think Neil's dream striker would be a goalscoring Lee Gregory!
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Post by robwahlmann on Apr 15, 2023 7:05:35 GMT
When fit Powell every time for me. I don't rate Gayle I must admit as he is too slow, too weak and too shit in front of goal as well. I really hope we can get rid in the summer, but I guess we're stuck with him for another season.
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Post by sportsman on Apr 15, 2023 7:35:59 GMT
A combination of the two. Gayle for his running and pressing more than Powell, and Powell for his extra quality.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 15, 2023 8:10:14 GMT
He isn't failing as an AM because he doesn't play as one. He plays across the pitch further forward than Laurent and Pearson supporting the forwards. Pearson sits and Laurent plays box to box. They don't play in a line and each has their own job. Whatever you call Smallbone the fact remains the midfield is not a flat 3 - Smallbone plays in an advanced position and Pearson protects the defence. For the majority of the game the midfield do not play in a line - which is what would happen if they were to play as a flat 3. He doesn’t play like a No 10 or a normal AM who are in the team for goals and creativity he’s in the team for his running and ground coverage. If he was a No10 or AM his output would be pretty awful but the manager wants him in there for the reasons stated thus making the midfield flatter. It was an obviously qualified choice of wording which you’ve chosen to disregard and change to a flat 3 which you won’t find to quote in any of my posts on the subject.
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Post by jimmygscfc1234 on Apr 15, 2023 8:11:43 GMT
Start them both and bring Brown on later in the game when play is stretched a little.
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Post by nottsover60 on Apr 15, 2023 8:43:14 GMT
Smallbone is neither a No10 nor AM thus it's a flatter midfield than if we played one. I didn't say he was a number 10 - he's the most advanced of the midfielders and if anyone does the work of a no 10 he does. There is absolutely no way we play a flat midfield. Smallbone rarely covers (which is fine, not his role), Pearson always covers and never gets forward and Laurent is box to box. It couldn't be less flat. I would Smallbone say rarely covers in his own half. He does a lot of 'defensive' work in the opposition half and is often the player pressing defenders passing the ball around. I agree on their main roles but I think it wrong to say they are limited to those. Pearson is often on the edge of the opposition area and plays no where near as deep as Whelan used to.
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Post by nottsover60 on Apr 15, 2023 8:51:12 GMT
It's not a 1:2 pivot. If anything the default shape is 2:1. Pearson sits to allow Laurent to bomb forward. Smallbone generally stays forward and comes back when we're under pressure. Smallbone and Pearson cover ground left-right and Laurent mainly covers ground back- forward. The last thing the shape of the midfield is flat. The starting positions are 4231 with Laurent and Pearson deep and Smallbone supporting the forwards - see the lineup tab for the last game against Birmingham www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65159319. Neil does not play a flat 3 midfield. As I said if Smallbone is an AM he's failing spectacularly. No he isn't. I would take issue with your idea that AMs are judged on goals and assists. If the team are scoring like we have been the AM is doing a good job. It was noticeable, I think, that v Bristol, whether their tactics or an just an off day but Smallbone had his worst game for a while and we never looked like scoring after 20 minutes.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 15, 2023 9:02:57 GMT
As I said if Smallbone is an AM he's failing spectacularly. No he isn't. I would take issue with your idea that AMs are judged on goals and assists. If the team are scoring like we have been the AM is doing a good job. It was noticeable, I think, that v Bristol, whether their tactics or an just an off day but Smallbone had his worst game for a while and we never looked like scoring after 20 minutes. I don't know where to go to look at heat maps but I'd guess that Smallbone will spend more time deeper than your average No10/AM. If I were doing a comparison I'd compare Smallbone playing as an alleged AM to Nick Powell when he's played in that role. I'd bet that Powell would spend more time higher up the pitch than Smallbone therefore Smallbone is deeper and the midfield flatter. For me it's not an isolated problem I think formations are often stated dishonestly. If you say you're playing 352 and the WB's play like FB's it's 532. If you say you're playing 433 and the wide forwards spend most of the game just in front of the FB it's 451. There's not much I liked about Pulis but he played 4411 didn't try to dress it up as 442 because it wasn't.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 15, 2023 9:12:22 GMT
As I said if Smallbone is an AM he's failing spectacularly. No he isn't. I would take issue with your idea that AMs are judged on goals and assists. If the team are scoring like we have been the AM is doing a good job. It was noticeable, I think, that v Bristol, whether their tactics or an just an off day but Smallbone had his worst game for a while and we never looked like scoring after 20 minutes. I don't dispute it has been effective I just don't think he plays as an AM or has the tools to do so. His creativity and shooting are really poor.
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Post by scfc75 on Apr 15, 2023 9:26:23 GMT
If it’s a fight I’d go Gayle. Powell has the reach but I reckon Gayle is a snidey bastard and would be tooled up.
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Post by march4 on Apr 15, 2023 9:30:51 GMT
Gayle please.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 15, 2023 10:33:29 GMT
Powell everytime. Gayle is finished.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Apr 15, 2023 10:42:01 GMT
I didn't say he was a number 10 - he's the most advanced of the midfielders and if anyone does the work of a no 10 he does. There is absolutely no way we play a flat midfield. Smallbone rarely covers (which is fine, not his role), Pearson always covers and never gets forward and Laurent is box to box. It couldn't be less flat. I would Smallbone say rarely covers in his own half. He does a lot of 'defensive' work in the opposition half and is often the player pressing defenders passing the ball around. I agree on their main roles but I think it wrong to say they are limited to those. Pearson is often on the edge of the opposition area and plays no where near as deep as Whelan used to. Pearson might get forward when the whole of the opposition are defending and the defence isn't exposed but he's always the one looking to sit and cover the defence. The one with the licence to bomb forward is Laurent - which he can do knowing Pearson will cover. You are right in that Smallbone breaks up play higher up the pitch but he's also the one looking to play in the forwards and ghost in to score. Compared with Powell in that role he isn't nearly as good in terms of his goal contribution but is comparable in terms of assists and way ahead in terms of breaking up play. Powell is probably better suited as the AM in a 4312 where he is effectively a deeper lying goal scorer whereas Smallbone is better suited as the AM in the 4231 we are playing at the moment where there are already 3 strikers on the pitch and he's expected to do more in terms of grafting.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 15, 2023 10:47:43 GMT
I would Smallbone say rarely covers in his own half. He does a lot of 'defensive' work in the opposition half and is often the player pressing defenders passing the ball around. I agree on their main roles but I think it wrong to say they are limited to those. Pearson is often on the edge of the opposition area and plays no where near as deep as Whelan used to. Pearson might get forward when the whole of the opposition are defending and the defence isn't exposed but he's always the one looking to sit and cover the defence. The one with the licence to bomb forward is Laurent - which he can do knowing Pearson will cover. You are right in that Smallbone breaks up play higher up the pitch but he's also the one looking to play in the forwards and ghost in to score. Compared with Powell in that role he isn't nearly as good in terms of his goal contribution but is comparable in terms of assists and way ahead in terms of breaking up play. Powell is probably better suited as the AM in a 4312 where he is effectively a deeper lying goal scorer whereas Smallbone is better suited as the AM in the 4231 we are playing at the moment where there are already 3 strikers on the pitch and he's expected to do more in terms of grafting. So Pearson although being the designated deepest midfielder gets up the pitch when he can which has been quite regularly and Smallbone does more graft in deeper areas than an AM like Powell but it's not flatter
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Post by Roger Everyone on Apr 15, 2023 10:58:44 GMT
Powell for the rest of the season (thats probably two games as he will be injured for the others) then look for someone else and try and get rid of both.
We need someone in who can play along side ard help the development of our own youngsters...
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Post by mossleypotter on Apr 15, 2023 18:27:09 GMT
Really hoping that's the last time I see Powell in a Stoke shirt. Yes it's clear the lad has bags of ability but I'm afraid he has zero fight in him and even less desire.
If you're that desperate to get a booking Nick, instead of making snide comments to the ref, you should have booted their No 21 in the air and done us all a favour !
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Post by biglad180 on Apr 15, 2023 18:52:23 GMT
I think if we are to make a serious challenge next season we must out both of them.
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Post by kjpt140v on Apr 15, 2023 18:54:26 GMT
Neither.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Apr 15, 2023 19:07:13 GMT
This. Play Brown there, Celina on the left and Campbell on the right. Both were an embarrassment today….
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Post by nottsover60 on Apr 15, 2023 19:31:39 GMT
Certainly on today's showing. I don't like Powell as sub. He never seems up for it. I don't understand the logic of Gayle for these matches. He has a contract with us next season anyway. Surely Powell should have been told that the offer of a new contract was conditional on proving his fitness over the last eight or however many matches it was since he was fit to play.
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Post by theonlooker on Apr 15, 2023 19:35:40 GMT
Neither if the game is to welly the ball at them from any angle.
Play some football FFS!
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 15, 2023 19:39:17 GMT
Certainly on today's showing. I don't like Powell as sub. He never seems up for it. I don't understand the logic of Gayle for these matches. He has a contract with us next season anyway. Surely Powell should have been told that the offer of a new contract was conditional on proving his fitness over the last eight or however many matches it was since he was fit to play. On todays evidence I couldn't argue. If that's what they've got to offer I don't think either would be missed. Both completely ineffective. Some big units in that WBA team.
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