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Post by cvillestokie on Mar 28, 2023 13:39:07 GMT
Would anyone take Pukki in the summer on a free, not a target man as such, but a finisher who is an intelligent player, who makes good runs off the ball, much like Gayle. Would be ideal for away games when we play in transition. He's not the kind of striker we need and turns 33 tomorrow. He’d also still command a pretty penny as well. I imagine that, if Norwich don’t renew, he’ll go to the bench of a relegation side.
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Post by cvillestokie on Mar 28, 2023 13:40:27 GMT
He's not getting selected because the manager doesn't trust him at left back. He would rather play a RB there. Hoever at RB and Tymon at LB will never happen. If they were the only two available I'm almost certain AN would switch to 352. If Pearson had to cover both of them he'd probably be sat in a corner sobbing uncontrollably wondering why he'd come here. You don't seem to be considering the possibility of Hoever not being available at any time. Then playing Tymon LB Sterling RB is as close to the balance that he is currently feilding that we can get with our current squad, anything else is way more negative. You’d have to switch Campbell around to make it possible. Tymon isn’t awful at defending but it isn’t one of his strengths. Having someone in front of him that doesn’t defend at all is a recipe for disaster. We’d then have to play Brown on the left, which I also don’t see being successful.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Mar 29, 2023 13:35:52 GMT
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Post by jokker on Mar 29, 2023 14:21:58 GMT
Well I certainly wouldn't - I've been Tymon's number one fan for years. But they are different cases who both happen to be thrown around on the left side with no other real alternatives among those on contract. Fox is a defender - a crap defender in my opinion, but he's managed to put in some good efforts this season. Tymon is not a defender primarily, he's a wingback who can also play centrally and wide in midfield, and, I wouldn't refrain from playing him further upfield as a winger-come-striker if it was up to me. You're probably happy it isn't . But wingbacks and wide midfielders have to defend sometimes, and at various points Tymon has been exposed there because of a lack of defensive basics. O'Neill, who probably rescued Josh' career when he was heading for the Stoke scrapyard, tried so hard to improve that but only succeeded partially. But because we have a leftsided defender problem - which we've had for years and never really have solved, like a fair few other clubs actually - Tymon and Fox get to be seen as interchangeable in that side. They're not, but managers have no choice but to treat them as such, unless they want to turn the current tactics upside down.
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Post by FullerMagic on Mar 29, 2023 14:23:02 GMT
To be fair, though, most of the debate is being stimulated because Neil is actively choosing not to play him - and he's been a non-factor during our best month of displays since relegation. He's been back fit for over a month and has got 10-minute late cameos in three games and one minute in the other - in games that have seen an out-of-position Sterling and Fox get a couple of starts each there. He seems fine giving the primarily attacking Hoever his head on the right, but it seems like there's something about Tymon and the knock-on effects on the team balance that he isn't sure of. He's a useful player to have around. But whether Neil would think being on our bench is the best use of a non-trivial wage, or Tymon would think that was the best use of one of his key career years, is probably more the question. If he doesn't get a few starts there in the last 8 games, you'd think the die is more or less cast. I'd be very interested to see the level of club that'd be interested in him and how they would use him if we did let it be known he was available.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Mar 29, 2023 15:28:31 GMT
To be fair, though, most of the debate is being stimulated because Neil is actively choosing not to play him - and he's been a non-factor during our best month of displays since relegation. He's been back fit for over a month and has got 10-minute late cameos in three games and one minute in the other - in games that have seen an out-of-position Sterling and Fox get a couple of starts each there. He seems fine giving the primarily attacking Hoever his head on the right, but it seems like there's something about Tymon and the knock-on effects on the team balance that he isn't sure of.He's a useful player to have around. But whether Neil would think being on our bench is the best use of a non-trivial wage, or Tymon would think that was the best use of one of his key career years, is probably more the question. If he doesn't get a few starts there in the last 8 games, you'd think the die is more or less cast. I'd be very interested to see the level of club that'd be interested in him and how they would use him if we did let it be known he was available. I don't know has he? He's been playing Hoever who done great and transformed our play. AN maybe isn't gung ho enough to play them both at the same time and having no reason to drop Hoever favours a more defensive type on the left. Now if Hoever was unavailable for any reason and he didn't then turn to Tymon as an attacking FB and move Sterling over to the right then I'd say that proves what you're saying but as far as I know those circumstances haven't arisen as yet. We've no guarantee to retain Hoever for next season and with that in mind I'd say letting our only other attacking FB go for anything below his peak value would be madness. Just because a manager does something doesn't make it rational anyway.
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Post by jokker on Mar 29, 2023 15:57:13 GMT
There's always a risk that a new manager doesn't like playing players who were signed and might or might not have been great successes by previous management, although Tymon was signed as the great wing back hope all the way back in 2017 by Mark Hughes. Neither Rowett nor Jones liked playing him and were more than happy to let him go. Kambert too. Then O'Neill arrived and turned around his career and so Josh gave us some of the best individual performances we've seen post-relegation. Neil might want to sign his own left back - good luck with that project - to make himself look like a great maanager. Tymon might not fit in then, simply.
Then again it may simply be a case of not wanting too much to change a winning team, i.e. a not losing one in our case.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2023 16:56:48 GMT
There's always a risk that a new manager doesn't like playing players who were signed and might or might not have been great successes by previous management, although Tymon was signed as the great wing back hope all the way back in 2017 by Mark Hughes. Neither Rowett nor Jones liked playing him and were more than happy to let him go. Kambert too. Then O'Neill arrived and turned around his career and so Josh gave us some of the best individual performances we've seen post-relegation. Neil might want to sign his own left back - good luck with that project - to make himself look like a great maanager. Tymon might not fit in then, simply. Then again it may simply be a case of not wanting too much to change a winning team, i.e. a not losing one in our case. Or he might want to sign a lb who can get forward to suit the 433 we are currently using. An attacking fullback and a wingback or not the same thing. Tymon is a specialist wingback for me and I am glad we've ditched that system. The main reason I want him sold is because it makes it tempting to switch back to 352 to get him in the team. In that formation he is definitely an asset but please can we not go back to it. It's just not Stoke.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Mar 29, 2023 18:06:15 GMT
There's always a risk that a new manager doesn't like playing players who were signed and might or might not have been great successes by previous management, although Tymon was signed as the great wing back hope all the way back in 2017 by Mark Hughes. Neither Rowett nor Jones liked playing him and were more than happy to let him go. Kambert too. Then O'Neill arrived and turned around his career and so Josh gave us some of the best individual performances we've seen post-relegation. Neil might want to sign his own left back - good luck with that project - to make himself look like a great maanager. Tymon might not fit in then, simply. Then again it may simply be a case of not wanting too much to change a winning team, i.e. a not losing one in our case. Or he might want to sign a lb who can get forward to suit the 433 we are currently using. An attacking fullback and a wingback or not the same thing.Tymon is a specialist wingback for me and I am glad we've ditched that system. The main reason I want him sold is because it makes it tempting to switch back to 352 to get him in the team. In that formation he is definitely an asset but please can we not go back to it. It's just not Stoke. They really are more or less exactly the same thing.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2023 18:28:50 GMT
Or he might want to sign a lb who can get forward to suit the 433 we are currently using. An attacking fullback and a wingback or not the same thing.Tymon is a specialist wingback for me and I am glad we've ditched that system. The main reason I want him sold is because it makes it tempting to switch back to 352 to get him in the team. In that formation he is definitely an asset but please can we not go back to it. It's just not Stoke. They really are more or less exactly the same thing. Well a lad I work with who was at Stoke from nine and was released just before his eighteenth birthday and who was predominantly a fullback begs to differ. I've had many conversations with him about it.
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Post by jokker on Mar 29, 2023 19:49:04 GMT
There's always a risk that a new manager doesn't like playing players who were signed and might or might not have been great successes by previous management, although Tymon was signed as the great wing back hope all the way back in 2017 by Mark Hughes. Neither Rowett nor Jones liked playing him and were more than happy to let him go. Kambert too. Then O'Neill arrived and turned around his career and so Josh gave us some of the best individual performances we've seen post-relegation. Neil might want to sign his own left back - good luck with that project - to make himself look like a great maanager. Tymon might not fit in then, simply. Then again it may simply be a case of not wanting too much to change a winning team, i.e. a not losing one in our case. Or he might want to sign a lb who can get forward to suit the 433 we are currently using. An attacking fullback and a wingback or not the same thing. Tymon is a specialist wingback for me and I am glad we've ditched that system. The main reason I want him sold is because it makes it tempting to switch back to 352 to get him in the team. In that formation he is definitely an asset but please can we not go back to it. It's just not Stoke. It's true that O'Neill built 352 around Tymon's pace and crosses, but as said above, he can play other positions - though an oldfashioned fb is not one of them. Any attempt to play him as such usually ends up with problems, for him, for the team, for the manager. But I would definitely keep him here, unless Newcastle or such pay an outrageous fee for him- Even if we in principle agree not to play to his strenghs, he could still come on as a supersub to change the pattern of the game and to expand on his understanding with Campbell. I'm sure Neil wants to sign a specialist lb, but so do most of the 91 other managers in English football, they keep trying, but there are so few of them. Rowett, Lambert, Jones, and O'Neill himself all made it top of their shopping lists but nothing happened.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2023 20:07:16 GMT
Or he might want to sign a lb who can get forward to suit the 433 we are currently using. An attacking fullback and a wingback or not the same thing. Tymon is a specialist wingback for me and I am glad we've ditched that system. The main reason I want him sold is because it makes it tempting to switch back to 352 to get him in the team. In that formation he is definitely an asset but please can we not go back to it. It's just not Stoke. It's true that O'Neill built 352 around Tymon's pace and crosses, but as said above, he can play other positions - though an oldfashioned fb is not one of them. Any attempt to play him as such usually ends up with problems, for him, for the team, for the manager. But I would definitely keep him here, unless Newcastle or such pay an outrageous fee for him- Even if we in principle agree not to play to his strenghs, he could still come on as a supersub to change the pattern of the game and to expand on his understanding with Campbell. I'm sure Neil wants to sign a specialist lb, but so do most of the 91 other managers in English football, they keep trying, but there are so few of them. Rowett, Lambert, Jones, and O'Neill himself all made it top of their shopping lists but nothing happened. Can we keep him happy though if he's not a regular starter? I think there would be plenty of interest from teams who still play with wingbacks although is it me or are more teams going back to a back four? The possession for possessions sake trend does seem to be becoming less fashionable.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Mar 29, 2023 20:14:33 GMT
They really are more or less exactly the same thing. Well a lad I work with who was at Stoke from nine and was released just before his eighteenth birthday and who was predominantly a fullback begs to differ. I've had many conversations with him about it. Most WB's are converts from either FB's or wingers. Due to the popularity of 3 at the back systems and 3 forward systems many players have developed away from what they would have at one time considered their position. If you were an attacking FB you might well have taken on the role of a WB, if you were a primarily defensive FB you might have moved to L/RCB. Wingers who were a goal threat have become wide forwards, wingers who didn't carry a goal threat have become WB's. If the lad you know was so inflexible maybe it contributed to him being released. Positions are more fluid and players need to be more versatile than back in the day when formations seemed to stay in vogue for decades.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2023 21:15:30 GMT
Well a lad I work with who was at Stoke from nine and was released just before his eighteenth birthday and who was predominantly a fullback begs to differ. I've had many conversations with him about it. Most WB's are converts from either FB's or wingers. Due to the popularity of 3 at the back systems and 3 forward systems many players have developed away from what they would have at one time considered their position. If you were an attacking FB you might well have taken on the role of a WB, if you were a primarily defensive FB you might have moved to L/RCB. Wingers who were a goal threat have become wide forwards, wingers who didn't carry a goal threat have become WB's. If the lad you know was so inflexible maybe it contributed to him being released. Positions are more fluid and players need to be more versatile than back in the day when formations seemed to stay in vogue for decades. Several managers have tried Tymon at fullback and all of them have given up on him pretty quickly. So maybe Tymon's problem is he isn't versatile enough as you say modern players need to be. He played twice as a fullback in a four against West Brom away and then Cardiff home. He had a stinker at West Brom. I don't remember Cardiff but Neil switched to 3 at the back after that game and hasn't used Tymon at fullback since. He was still in the team but played wingback until he got injured at Luton. Coincidence that we went back to wingbacks with Tymon in the team? I don't think so.
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Post by jokker on Mar 30, 2023 1:15:34 GMT
It's true that O'Neill built 352 around Tymon's pace and crosses, but as said above, he can play other positions - though an oldfashioned fb is not one of them. Any attempt to play him as such usually ends up with problems, for him, for the team, for the manager. But I would definitely keep him here, unless Newcastle or such pay an outrageous fee for him- Even if we in principle agree not to play to his strenghs, he could still come on as a supersub to change the pattern of the game and to expand on his understanding with Campbell. I'm sure Neil wants to sign a specialist lb, but so do most of the 91 other managers in English football, they keep trying, but there are so few of them. Rowett, Lambert, Jones, and O'Neill himself all made it top of their shopping lists but nothing happened. Can we keep him happy though if he's not a regular starter? I think there would be plenty of interest from teams who still play with wingbacks although is it me or are more teams going back to a back four? The possession for possessions sake trend does seem to be becoming less fashionable. He's been happy at Stoke despite being out of the team for long periods, but of course that was before he was recognised as one of the best crossers in the game, and before he came to realise that Southgate is desperately looking for left wingbacks and/or fullbacks. I suppose it depends on whether a prospective PL club can offer him regulare football. With most clubs using rotated squads I think they might not, but who knows? They can always say they will in the pitch then not play him afterwards...
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Post by jokker on Mar 30, 2023 1:28:45 GMT
The main reason I want him sold is because it makes it tempting to switch back to 352 to get him in the team. In that formation he is definitely an asset but please can we not go back to it. It's just not Stoke. There's nothing wrong with the 352 system. Argentina, the world champions, to name one, switched to it during several games in the recent world cup. It's a great system. We've just never had eleven men who were able to be at ease within it, and we haven't had managers who knew how to use it properly. Our managers have primarily used it as more a 532 defensive system to cover our defensive fallities, which is so wrong, as it's meant to enhance the team's attacking possibilities. For example we use the three defenders primarily as interchangeasble options, when it's meant to have three specific individual roles. We've just don't have players who can fill those roles, although it would probably have helped if we'd played Taylor there and had kept Forrester and Souttar. The coming and going of managers obviously has also not helped.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2023 6:21:48 GMT
The main reason I want him sold is because it makes it tempting to switch back to 352 to get him in the team. In that formation he is definitely an asset but please can we not go back to it. It's just not Stoke. There's nothing wrong with the 352 system. Argentina, the world champions, to name one, switched to it during several games in the recent world cup. It's a great system. We've just never had eleven men who were able to be at ease within it, and we haven't had managers who knew how to use it properly. Our managers have primarily used it as more a 532 defensive system to cover our defensive fallities, which is so wrong, as it's meant to enhance the team's attacking possibilities. For example we use the three defenders primarily as interchangeasble options, when it's meant to have three specific individual roles. We've just don't have players who can fill those roles, although it would probably have helped if we'd played Taylor there and had kept Forrester and Souttar. The coming and going of managers obviously has also not helped. I completely agree. Ironically we probably have the two best suited wingbacks to that system now in Tymon and Hoever but it still doesn't suit the CBs or forwards or importantly the fan base. Some teams fans lap up the patient pass it around the back stuff. Here more than two sideways passes or god forbid a backward pass and the groans and cries of 'get it forward' ring out. Our fans love front foot football and I think that penny has dropped with Alex Neil.
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Post by jimmygscfc1234 on Mar 30, 2023 9:06:31 GMT
The main reason I want him sold is because it makes it tempting to switch back to 352 to get him in the team. In that formation he is definitely an asset but please can we not go back to it. It's just not Stoke. There's nothing wrong with the 352 system. Argentina, the world champions, to name one, switched to it during several games in the recent world cup. It's a great system. We've just never had eleven men who were able to be at ease within it, and we haven't had managers who knew how to use it properly. Our managers have primarily used it as more a 532 defensive system to cover our defensive fallities, which is so wrong, as it's meant to enhance the team's attacking possibilities. For example we use the three defenders primarily as interchangeasble options, when it's meant to have three specific individual roles. We've just don't have players who can fill those roles, although it would probably have helped if we'd played Taylor there and had kept Forrester and Souttar. The coming and going of managers obviously has also not helped. That would have been the slowest back 3 in the League.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Mar 30, 2023 11:39:26 GMT
There's nothing wrong with the 352 system. Argentina, the world champions, to name one, switched to it during several games in the recent world cup. It's a great system. We've just never had eleven men who were able to be at ease within it, and we haven't had managers who knew how to use it properly. Our managers have primarily used it as more a 532 defensive system to cover our defensive fallities, which is so wrong, as it's meant to enhance the team's attacking possibilities. For example we use the three defenders primarily as interchangeasble options, when it's meant to have three specific individual roles. We've just don't have players who can fill those roles, although it would probably have helped if we'd played Taylor there and had kept Forrester and Souttar. The coming and going of managers obviously has also not helped. That would have been the slowest back 3 in the League. Not quite as slow as Taylor Flint Souttar who have all been available at the same time at one point this season a terrifying thought.
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Post by LGH87 on Mar 30, 2023 11:42:05 GMT
To be fair, though, most of the debate is being stimulated because Neil is actively choosing not to play him - and he's been a non-factor during our best month of displays since relegation. He's been back fit for over a month and has got 10-minute late cameos in three games and one minute in the other - in games that have seen an out-of-position Sterling and Fox get a couple of starts each there. He seems fine giving the primarily attacking Hoever his head on the right, but it seems like there's something about Tymon and the knock-on effects on the team balance that he isn't sure of. He's a useful player to have around. But whether Neil would think being on our bench is the best use of a non-trivial wage, or Tymon would think that was the best use of one of his key career years, is probably more the question. If he doesn't get a few starts there in the last 8 games, you'd think the die is more or less cast. I'd be very interested to see the level of club that'd be interested in him and how they would use him if we did let it be known he was available. He'll probably sign for Luton and form a formidable partnership down their left side with Doughty.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 30, 2023 11:51:52 GMT
To be fair, though, most of the debate is being stimulated because Neil is actively choosing not to play him - and he's been a non-factor during our best month of displays since relegation. He's been back fit for over a month and has got 10-minute late cameos in three games and one minute in the other - in games that have seen an out-of-position Sterling and Fox get a couple of starts each there. He seems fine giving the primarily attacking Hoever his head on the right, but it seems like there's something about Tymon and the knock-on effects on the team balance that he isn't sure of. He's a useful player to have around. But whether Neil would think being on our bench is the best use of a non-trivial wage, or Tymon would think that was the best use of one of his key career years, is probably more the question. If he doesn't get a few starts there in the last 8 games, you'd think the die is more or less cast. I'd be very interested to see the level of club that'd be interested in him and how they would use him if we did let it be known he was available. He'll probably sign for Luton and form a formidable partnership down their left side with Doughty. What an odd signing Doughty was on so many levels.
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Post by jokker on Mar 30, 2023 11:57:32 GMT
There's nothing wrong with the 352 system. Argentina, the world champions, to name one, switched to it during several games in the recent world cup. It's a great system. We've just never had eleven men who were able to be at ease within it, and we haven't had managers who knew how to use it properly. Our managers have primarily used it as more a 532 defensive system to cover our defensive fallities, which is so wrong, as it's meant to enhance the team's attacking possibilities. For example we use the three defenders primarily as interchangeasble options, when it's meant to have three specific individual roles. We've just don't have players who can fill those roles, although it would probably have helped if we'd played Taylor there and had kept Forrester and Souttar. The coming and going of managers obviously has also not helped. I completely agree. Ironically we probably have the two best suited wingbacks to that system now in Tymon and Hoever but it still doesn't suit the CBs or forwards or importantly the fan base. Some teams fans lap up the patient pass it around the back stuff. Here more than two sideways passes or god forbid a backward pass and the groans and cries of 'get it forward' ring out. Our fans love front foot football and I think that penny has dropped with Alex Neil. True but we don't have a united fanbase, as this mb very clearly shows all the time. Just because some oldies but mouldies shout out for the long ball doesn't mean that everybody in that particular section agrees. You can never satisfy everybody, and no manager who tried ever succeeded. He's got to find a system he fully believes in and stay with it. The chopping and changing that we've seen with Jones, O'Neill, and, to some extent so far, Neil has and will do us no good at all.
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Post by jokker on Mar 30, 2023 13:59:31 GMT
There's nothing wrong with the 352 system. Argentina, the world champions, to name one, switched to it during several games in the recent world cup. It's a great system. We've just never had eleven men who were able to be at ease within it, and we haven't had managers who knew how to use it properly. Our managers have primarily used it as more a 532 defensive system to cover our defensive fallities, which is so wrong, as it's meant to enhance the team's attacking possibilities. For example we use the three defenders primarily as interchangeasble options, when it's meant to have three specific individual roles. We've just don't have players who can fill those roles, although it would probably have helped if we'd played Taylor there and had kept Forrester and Souttar. The coming and going of managers obviously has also not helped. That would have been the slowest back 3 in the League. The centrebacks don't have to have pace on a Tymoniac level. Just be safe and sure on the ball, show creativity, and ban the long ball. Taylor has that forward drive and creativity in his game, which is probably why some managers are insecure about using him. It looks like Neil is one of them.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Mar 30, 2023 14:11:17 GMT
That would have been the slowest back 3 in the League. The centrebacks don't have to have pace on a Tymoniac level. Just be safe and sure on the ball, show creativity, and ban the long ball. Taylor has that forward drive and creativity in his game, which is probably why some managers are insecure about using him. It looks like Neil is one of them. There is obviously something that some fans are seeing in Taylor that others are completely blind to. I just aren't seeing that supposed creativity in his game. He'll surge forward with the ball but then is pretty clueless what to do with it, quite often isolating himself. As for relative pace and mobility, it's very desirable in a CB.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 30, 2023 14:31:02 GMT
Creativity, centre halves. We don't have creativity from our attacking midfielder nevermind any of the fucking centre halves
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Post by idle on Mar 30, 2023 14:48:24 GMT
He'll probably sign for Luton and form a formidable partnership down their left side with Doughty. What an odd signing Doughty was on so many levels. Doughty is playing pretty well now, isn't he? As a wingback as well?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 30, 2023 14:52:03 GMT
What an odd signing Doughty was on so many levels. Doughty is playing pretty well now, isn't he? As a wingback as well? No idea tbh. I don't watch this league bar our games.
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Post by idle on Mar 30, 2023 14:58:33 GMT
Doughty is playing pretty well now, isn't he? As a wingback as well? No idea tbh. I don't watch this league bar our games. 25 games for a promotion chasing side, 2 goals and 5 assists (incl. cups), 0.22 assists/game in the league. Not bad for a winger turned wingback IMO. (from here: footystats.org/players/england/alfie-doughty)
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Post by nonameface on Mar 30, 2023 17:39:59 GMT
No idea tbh. I don't watch this league bar our games. 25 games for a promotion chasing side, 2 goals and 5 assists (incl. cups), 0.22 assists/game in the league. Not bad for a winger turned wingback IMO. (from here: footystats.org/players/england/alfie-doughty) looks like a very good left back at this level.
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Post by jokker on Mar 30, 2023 18:50:47 GMT
Creativity, centre halves. We don't have creativity from our attacking midfielder nevermind any of the fucking centre halves That's what I said, more or less, above. We don't have the players for 352/343 and we have never produced or bought enough players to fit the system. Yet several managers now have tried to enforce it. Yet some people ask why we struggle to make it to a midtable position...
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