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Post by jokker on Mar 30, 2023 18:55:59 GMT
The centrebacks don't have to have pace on a Tymoniac level. Just be safe and sure on the ball, show creativity, and ban the long ball. Taylor has that forward drive and creativity in his game, which is probably why some managers are insecure about using him. It looks like Neil is one of them. There is obviously something that some fans are seeing in Taylor that others are completely blind to. I just aren't seeing that supposed creativity in his game. He'll surge forward with the ball but then is pretty clueless what to do with it, quite often isolating himself. As for relative pace and mobility, it's very desirable in a CB. Of course cbs must have mobility and ability to match the opposition's pace. They just don't have to be sprinters like Tymon is what I was getting at. As for Taylor you have just indicated what is the team's problem. We have a player capable of turning a won ball into an attacking move. But when he moves forward his team mates just stand still staring at him not knowing what to do, because they have no clue what they're supposed to do within the system.
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Post by cvillestokie on Mar 30, 2023 19:03:13 GMT
There is obviously something that some fans are seeing in Taylor that others are completely blind to. I just aren't seeing that supposed creativity in his game. He'll surge forward with the ball but then is pretty clueless what to do with it, quite often isolating himself. As for relative pace and mobility, it's very desirable in a CB. Of course cbs must have mobility and ability to match the opposition's pace. They just don't have to be sprinters like Tymon is what I was getting at. As for Taylor you have just indicated what is the team's problem. We have a player capable of turning a won ball into an attacking move. But when he moves forward his team mates just stand still staring at him not knowing what to do, because they have no clue what they're supposed to do within the system. I think it’s more to do with him not knowing what a forward pass should look like when in the opposition’s half. He should have had game time in the second half of the season to give him the chance to come up to Championship level. He made a series of mistakes at the beginning of the season and was rightly dropped.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 30, 2023 19:13:30 GMT
Of course cbs must have mobility and ability to match the opposition's pace. They just don't have to be sprinters like Tymon is what I was getting at. As for Taylor you have just indicated what is the team's problem. We have a player capable of turning a won ball into an attacking move. But when he moves forward his team mates just stand still staring at him not knowing what to do, because they have no clue what they're supposed to do within the system. I think it’s more to do with him not knowing what a forward pass should look like when in the opposition’s half. He should have had game time in the second half of the season to give him the chance to come up to Championship level. He made a series of mistakes at the beginning of the season and was rightly dropped. Which of our centre halves regularly make passes in the opposition half? None of them do.
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Post by lordb on Mar 30, 2023 20:30:14 GMT
I think it’s more to do with him not knowing what a forward pass should look like when in the opposition’s half. He should have had game time in the second half of the season to give him the chance to come up to Championship level. He made a series of mistakes at the beginning of the season and was rightly dropped. Which of our centre halves regularly make passes in the opposition half? None of them do. Wilmot
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 30, 2023 20:31:43 GMT
Which of our centre halves regularly make passes in the opposition half? None of them do. Wilmot No he doesn't. The passing is from deep and is usually fucking atrocious.
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Post by jokker on Mar 31, 2023 6:49:48 GMT
I think it’s more to do with him not knowing what a forward pass should look like when in the opposition’s half. He should have had game time in the second half of the season to give him the chance to come up to Championship level. He made a series of mistakes at the beginning of the season and was rightly dropped. Which of our centre halves regularly make passes in the opposition half? None of them do. Again that's the point I'm making. We don't have players fit for the 352/343 systens. So we should not go back to it unril we have enough who do. That's bad news for Tymon, but one man don't make an eleven man team. I suppose that applies to Taylor too, though tbh I haven't seen enough of him lately. I stopped watching Stoke for a period. In fact I stopped watching all football for several weeks after the world cup.
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Post by jokker on Mar 31, 2023 6:51:40 GMT
Of course cbs must have mobility and ability to match the opposition's pace. They just don't have to be sprinters like Tymon is what I was getting at. As for Taylor you have just indicated what is the team's problem. We have a player capable of turning a won ball into an attacking move. But when he moves forward his team mates just stand still staring at him not knowing what to do, because they have no clue what they're supposed to do within the system. I think it’s more to do with him not knowing what a forward pass should look like when in the opposition’s half. He should have had game time in the second half of the season to give him the chance to come up to Championship level. He made a series of mistakes at the beginning of the season and was rightly dropped. He's young and should learn by doing. In that process he should be allowed to make mistakes. If he doesn't learn from them, then get rid.
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Post by cvillestokie on Mar 31, 2023 11:12:40 GMT
I think it’s more to do with him not knowing what a forward pass should look like when in the opposition’s half. He should have had game time in the second half of the season to give him the chance to come up to Championship level. He made a series of mistakes at the beginning of the season and was rightly dropped. He's young and should learn by doing. In that process he should be allowed to make mistakes. If he doesn't learn from them, then get rid. I don’t agree. You send players out until they are ready for the level of football you play in. This is perhaps less important for some midfielders and attacking players but mistakes at the back or in goal leads to us falling behind and spending the rest of the game trying to break down a team who aren’t interested in taking additional risks (which we are notoriously bad at). Edit: I think that Taylor should have been given his chance over Tuanzebe (unless we sign the latter next season). However, he does not seem like the player you described earlier to me. The only reason I wanted him to get a chance was because when we hit about 40 points, the season largely was over and Taylor could develop in other fairly meaningless games.
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Post by jokker on Mar 31, 2023 12:44:17 GMT
He's young and should learn by doing. In that process he should be allowed to make mistakes. If he doesn't learn from them, then get rid. I don’t agree. You send players out until they are ready for the level of football you play in. This is perhaps less important for some midfielders and attacking players but mistakes at the back or in goal leads to us falling behind and spending the rest of the game trying to break down a team who aren’t interested in taking additional risks (which we are notoriously bad at). Edit: I think that Taylor should have been given his chance over Tuanzebe (unless we sign the latter next season). However, he does not seem like the player you described earlier to me. The only reason I wanted him to get a chance was because when we hit about 40 points, the season largely was over and Taylor could develop in other fairly meaningless games. You say we disagree but it seems we both agree actually that he should play more, not as automatic choice, but he should be given an outing or two before the season's over. But Tuanzebe, having finally reached some degree of being fit, also needed to be seen in the team, or his stay here would have been a complete waste of time, his and ours.
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Post by lordb on Mar 31, 2023 12:58:02 GMT
I don’t agree. You send players out until they are ready for the level of football you play in. This is perhaps less important for some midfielders and attacking players but mistakes at the back or in goal leads to us falling behind and spending the rest of the game trying to break down a team who aren’t interested in taking additional risks (which we are notoriously bad at). Edit: I think that Taylor should have been given his chance over Tuanzebe (unless we sign the latter next season). However, he does not seem like the player you described earlier to me. The only reason I wanted him to get a chance was because when we hit about 40 points, the season largely was over and Taylor could develop in other fairly meaningless games. You say we disagree but it seems we both agree actually that he should play more, not as automatic choice, but he should be given an outing or two before the season's over. But Tuanzebe, having finally reached some degree of being fit, also needed to be seen in the team, or his stay here would have been a complete waste of time, his and ours. would add that if there is a possibility that Tuanzebe could sign permanently - & the suggestion is there at least a chance - then playing him is important would also add that AN is trying to build momentum, a winning habit (which has been lacking now for many years) so changing that is vital for next season all the same would like to see Taylor get some starts before the end of the season
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Post by jokker on Mar 31, 2023 17:14:10 GMT
You say we disagree but it seems we both agree actually that he should play more, not as automatic choice, but he should be given an outing or two before the season's over. But Tuanzebe, having finally reached some degree of being fit, also needed to be seen in the team, or his stay here would have been a complete waste of time, his and ours. would add that if there is a possibility that Tuanzebe could sign permanently - & the suggestion is there at least a chance - then playing him is important would also add that AN is trying to build momentum, a winning habit (which has been lacking now for many years) so changing that is vital for next season all the same would like to see Taylor get some starts before the end of the season I don't know the terms of Tuanzebe being here. I wasn't paying attention to anything football related in January. Did his club pay his wages while he was on loan? He's now free, having been released by Manure, but if he's used to PL wages and intends to keep them that way, then we can't afford him.
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Post by lordb on Mar 31, 2023 19:40:24 GMT
would add that if there is a possibility that Tuanzebe could sign permanently - & the suggestion is there at least a chance - then playing him is important would also add that AN is trying to build momentum, a winning habit (which has been lacking now for many years) so changing that is vital for next season all the same would like to see Taylor get some starts before the end of the season I don't know the terms of Tuanzebe being here. I wasn't paying attention to anything football related in January. Did his club pay his wages while he was on loan? He's now free, having been released by Manure, but if he's used to PL wages and intends to keep them that way, then we can't afford him. Probably but his injury record will put a lot of clubs off We might end up being a safe bet for him Would assume he'll get a good club in a good league abroad rather than Premier League but nonetheless the noises are that the club are offering a deal so it can't be an absolute no
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 1, 2023 7:28:46 GMT
He's young and should learn by doing. In that process he should be allowed to make mistakes. If he doesn't learn from them, then get rid. I don’t agree. You send players out until they are ready for the level of football you play in. This is perhaps less important for some midfielders and attacking players but mistakes at the back or in goal leads to us falling behind and spending the rest of the game trying to break down a team who aren’t interested in taking additional risks (which we are notoriously bad at). Edit: I think that Taylor should have been given his chance over Tuanzebe (unless we sign the latter next season). However, he does not seem like the player you described earlier to me. The only reason I wanted him to get a chance was because when we hit about 40 points, the season largely was over and Taylor could develop in other fairly meaningless games. I don’t think sending players on loan until they’re the finished article is realistic. It can help their development a lot but you’ve still got to be willing to take the risk of integrating them at your level in your system. Given Taylor’s position in the pecking order under AN I think another seasons loan at a higher level(league one) would be entirely appropriate but eventually there is only so much of your donkey work you can palm off on someone else. Souttar’s loans were great development but MON still had to be willing to gamble on a player with no experience at our level. Given the success of his and Taylor’s loans at Fleetwood and BR I’d say another season with Joey Barton would be ideal for Taylor.
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Post by jokker on Apr 1, 2023 12:00:17 GMT
I don’t agree. You send players out until they are ready for the level of football you play in. This is perhaps less important for some midfielders and attacking players but mistakes at the back or in goal leads to us falling behind and spending the rest of the game trying to break down a team who aren’t interested in taking additional risks (which we are notoriously bad at). Edit: I think that Taylor should have been given his chance over Tuanzebe (unless we sign the latter next season). However, he does not seem like the player you described earlier to me. The only reason I wanted him to get a chance was because when we hit about 40 points, the season largely was over and Taylor could develop in other fairly meaningless games. I don’t think sending players on loan until they’re the finished article is realistic. It can help their development a lot but you’ve still got to be willing to take the risk of integrating them at your level in your system. Given Taylor’s position in the pecking order under AN I think another seasons loan at a higher level(league one) would be entirely appropriate but eventually there is only so much of your donkey work you can palm off on someone else. Souttar’s loans were great development but MON still had to be willing to gamble on a player with no experience at our level. Given the success of his and Taylor’s loans at Fleetwood and BR I’d say another season with Joey Barton would be ideal for Taylor. If he did this, going for a whole season, he'll be nearly 23 by the time he returns, so there's a very good chance that our manager by then, whoever he is, will look at the facts and say that is too old for a player who hasn't established himself yet, and he will be released. No, next season is make or break for Connor, and with the number of centrebacks we already have plus the 3-4 that Neil will sign in the summer and winter windows, his chances aren't good.
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Post by jokker on Apr 1, 2023 12:03:36 GMT
I don't know the terms of Tuanzebe being here. I wasn't paying attention to anything football related in January. Did his club pay his wages while he was on loan? He's now free, having been released by Manure, but if he's used to PL wages and intends to keep them that way, then we can't afford him. Probably but his injury record will put a lot of clubs off We might end up being a safe bet for him Would assume he'll get a good club in a good league abroad rather than Premier League but nonetheless the noises are that the club are offering a deal so it can't be an absolute no Burnley would be an adequate address for him, if they are promoted, and who would bet against that now.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2023 12:25:24 GMT
Tymon is nothing like Souttar , but the Tymon situation reminds me a bit of the Souttar situation.
He is not a bad player and he is very good at some things, but he doesn't seem to be what Stoke need.
Souttar never played badly for us , but he didn't just come in and make wilmot and fox and sterling better , like what Tuanzebe does . Tuanzebe is the perfect fit alongside wilmot , fox and sterling . Souttar isn't , though he might do very well somewhere else eg playing alongside 3 Aussie's .
Tymon is similar . He might be an effective squad player for a lower prem / higher championship team starting say 3 or 4 games when the side go 532 for tactical reasons . Coming off the bench 3 or 4 times when with his side struggling at nil nil to break down lower opposition their manager decides to sub his full backs for Tymon and AN Other and push his full backs high up the pitch and take a calculated gamble , in going for the win.
Tymon might be handy somewhere , but right now , it is hard to see it being Stoke.
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Post by jokker on Apr 1, 2023 17:23:02 GMT
Tymon is nothing like Souttar , but the Tymon situation reminds me a bit of the Souttar situation. He is not a bad player and he is very good at some things, but he doesn't seem to be what Stoke need. Souttar never played badly for us , but he didn't just come in and make wilmot and fox and sterling better , like what Tuanzebe does . Tuanzebe is the perfect fit alongside wilmot , fox and sterling . Souttar isn't , though he might do very well somewhere else eg playing alongside 3 Aussie's . Tymon is similar . He might be an effective squad player for a lower prem / higher championship team starting say 3 or 4 games when the side go 532 for tactical reasons . Coming off the bench 3 or 4 times when with his side struggling at nil nil to break down lower opposition their manager decides to sub his full backs for Tymon and AN Other and push his full backs high up the pitch and take a calculated gamble , in going for the win. Tymon might be handy somewhere , but right now , it is hard to see it being Stoke. I know I said above that the current lineup is bad news for Tymon, but he showed under O'Neill that he was able to change, as a player and probably also as a person, who gained a lot of confidence, first from the manager's continued faith in him, and then from his own performances. I was hardly able to recognise the super condifident runner and frequent motm from the insecure kid who preferred to hide from people's glances shortly before. For the first time in years he was asked to and backed up to play in his best position and that certainly helped also. But before that he also had a spell where he was being used in central midfield, not as a regular, but he did alright every now and then. That tells me that he is also able to adapt to the team's and the manager's needs, and this could happen again. It might take a preseason and some games into next season before he could play centrally again, but that's up to Neil and the coaches in how well they can apply that. Up to Josh too of course. He could become our "handy man", if you like. The fact that Neil still keeps him in the 18-man squad tells us that he's still part of the plans. I think we'd be very foolish to sell him just because he's been out of the side for weeks now. We can get a few bob for him, true, but we might have to wait years before we get another player with his abilities.
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Post by numpty40 on Apr 1, 2023 17:33:56 GMT
Has Tymon played since coming on as sub against Blackburn and then immediately conceding the two late goals? I remember in his post match interview that AN was very critical of how easy Blackburn were able to get crosses in after the substitutions. Although he didn't name players I immediately thought he was referring to Tymon. I don't think AN trusts Tymon.
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Post by numpty40 on Apr 1, 2023 17:37:17 GMT
Correction, I see he came on today
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Post by jokker on Apr 1, 2023 17:47:37 GMT
Correction, I see he came on today I think he's appeared every game since he became available again, although for mere minutes at a time, once mere seconds, i.e. he wasn't brought on before the whistle.
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