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Post by Squeekster on Dec 2, 2023 20:02:57 GMT
We'd have been relegated last season had MON remained in charge. Lay off the wine march.
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Post by idle on Dec 2, 2023 20:03:56 GMT
MON had to go as we needed better. We employed Neil, who I had zero confidence in making us better. The clubs management recruitment has always been terrible in my lifetime bar Hughes You're under 20? TP turned out to be a good appointment. Hughes did well a few seasons before it went to shit.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Dec 2, 2023 20:04:30 GMT
MON had to go as we needed better. We employed Neil, who I had zero confidence in making us better. The clubs management recruitment has always been terrible in my lifetime bar Hughes You're under 20? TP turned out to be a good appointment. Hughes did well a few seasons before it went to shit. I’m told I look 20😉
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Post by roylandstoke on Dec 2, 2023 20:10:25 GMT
He’d have done better by working hard and making the best of his playing staff. Because of our FFP problems he was never given the resources this clown had been given and consequently had small squads, nevertheless when his players were fit he did get decent results. Have a look at our league positions after 19 games under a competent manager relative to our current position. He didn't make the best of it when he was here, why would it be any different now? The question is would a manager, who solved our FFP problems and got 30+ points from the first 19 games of each of his seasons, have done better than a fella, who has been given everything he has asked for over 60 odd games, and has his team 20th with 21 points after 19 games. You have every right to disagree. Personally I think it would be pretty difficult for anyone to do worse.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Dec 2, 2023 20:13:41 GMT
He didn't make the best of it when he was here, why would it be any different now? The question is would a manager, who solved our FFP problems and got 30+ points from the first 19 games of each of his seasons, have done better than a fella, who has been given everything he has asked for over 60 odd games, and has his team 20th with 21 points after 19 games. You have every right to disagree. Personally I think it would be pretty difficult for anyone to do worse. Solved our FFP problems, you say that like he had a choice or someone else would have done differently, well they may have, they may have signed people for the formation they wanted to play tbf. MON was shit AN is turning out to be shit. Job done.
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Post by roylandstoke on Dec 2, 2023 20:33:37 GMT
The question is would a manager, who solved our FFP problems and got 30+ points from the first 19 games of each of his seasons, have done better than a fella, who has been given everything he has asked for over 60 odd games, and has his team 20th with 21 points after 19 games. You have every right to disagree. Personally I think it would be pretty difficult for anyone to do worse. Solved our FFP problems, you say that like he had a choice or someone else would have done differently, well they may have, they may have signed people for the formation they wanted to play tbf. MON was shit AN is turning out to be shit. Job done. Once again you’ve confused this thread with some other thread that may or may not be titled was MON shit?
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Post by peterthornesboots on Dec 2, 2023 20:39:16 GMT
MoN did a terrific job here by saving us from relegation and then providing some stability whilst we were completely hamstrung by FFP.
However, the decision to part company was the right one.
MoN looked jaded and seemed to have run out of ideas. We were looking for someone who could build a side capable of challenging for the play-offs and his pragmatic style was never going to get us there.
Having said that, AN has proven to be a far inferior manager despite being given far greater resources.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Dec 2, 2023 20:40:12 GMT
MoN did a terrific job here by saving us from relegation and then providing some stability whilst we were completely hamstrung by FFP. However, the decision to part company was the right one. MoN looked jaded and seemed to have run out of ideas. We were looking for someone who could build a side capable of challenging for the play-offs and his pragmatic style was never going to get us there. Having said that, AN has proven to be a far inferior manager despite being given far greater resources. Spot on mate
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Post by johnnysoul60 on Dec 2, 2023 20:58:24 GMT
Overall I preferred MON, he was struggling by the end, but his team with Vrancic Fletcher, Powell and Tye was way ahead of this one before injuries struck. Neil has spent way more and the team still lacks quality in the final third, still plays football that is far too slow and still goes to sleep at the back, no idea what the solution is.
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Post by norters on Dec 2, 2023 21:17:08 GMT
Absolutely.. a man that most decent footballers would play for..
I just think AN struggles to motivate..
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Post by mrcoke on Dec 2, 2023 21:19:12 GMT
It patently obvious to me that we haven't employed a manger capable of winning promotion since we were relegated.
The problem lies with the owners who are too patient (soft?) and not sufficiently demanding of results. I think the reason Neil quit Sunderland was he knew he would be more secure at Stoke.
Even if a manager is successful like Hughes was with top 10 finishes, and MON in avoiding relegation, there still needs to be a success criteria and if a manager falls short he should be replaced immediately. The players can sense whether a manager is going to succeed and it reflects in their performance.
It's academic whether MON could have done better, neither is good enough. The club need to appoint a football director who dictates who should be in charge of 1st team, other teams recruitment, etc. Someone with a history of team management and loads of contacts. Hughes would be the sort of guy. He clearly had contacts to find talent, his achilles heel was poor defending: he essentially relied on what Pulis left for his first 3 seasons. I think he would be ideal to "move upstairs" and direct football affairs, appointing a senior coach to manage the 1st team.
In terms of who would be a suitable 1st team coach, I think our squad is crying out for a foreign manager.
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Post by spongebobflathead on Dec 2, 2023 21:21:22 GMT
Alex Neil win ratio: 33.85% Michael O'Neill: 38.46% The difference being mon inherited a complete clusterfuck, Neil didn’t
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Post by owdestokie2 on Dec 2, 2023 22:13:22 GMT
My view ..Yes over the last 25 games Check out his Points Per Game, compare with AN’s. It isn’t opinion it’s fact….
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Post by Gods on Dec 2, 2023 22:15:57 GMT
Do bears shit in the woods.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 2, 2023 22:17:23 GMT
What’s with looking back.
MoN was sacked too late.
AN will be sacked too late.
All the issues stem from the board.
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Post by yellowsnowman on Dec 2, 2023 22:21:49 GMT
We moved on from all our previous managers for a reason. Performances and results were not good enough. All though they couldnt do much as ffp looomed at the time. We were worse than bang average. Id say we are about that still with AN, results dont lie here either. After being able to put together a whole new squad!
AN and his No2 both need to go. Keep the rest until end of the season. I think the GK coach has improved JB a little but thats just one of MANY positions neglected in the summer. Which is a big reason why we are where we are.
If the signs of any progress were there surely by now we would start to see it.
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Post by gawa on Dec 2, 2023 22:40:03 GMT
Alex Neil win ratio: 33.85% Michael O'Neill: 38.46% Alex Neil loss ratio: 46% (based off wiki so likely not updated) Michael ONeill loss ratio: 37%
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2023 22:41:30 GMT
Pointless thread.
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Post by independent on Dec 2, 2023 23:28:28 GMT
He is still the manager with the best PPG since we came down.Leaving his games out, the other managers got 168pts from 159 games. Now that is seriously shit, when MON managed 1.3 PPG. Does anyone seriously believe that we will surpass his 62 points for a season this year,or even the 60 points he got the season before.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 2, 2023 23:29:55 GMT
He was shit.
Not good enough.
People being happy with such shit manager, player and owner wise is a big factor with this demise imo.
It’s normalised.
It’s pitiful.
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sevvy
Youth Player
Posts: 343
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Post by sevvy on Dec 2, 2023 23:39:35 GMT
You're under 20? TP turned out to be a good appointment. Hughes did well a few seasons before it went to shit. I’m told I look 20😉 Stones?
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Post by roylandstoke on Dec 2, 2023 23:39:56 GMT
He was shit. Not good enough. People being happy with such shit manager, player and owner wise is a big factor with this demise imo. It’s normalised. It’s pitiful. This thread isn’t asking: “was MON any good?”. It is asking would MON have done better.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 3, 2023 0:01:58 GMT
He was shit. Not good enough. People being happy with such shit manager, player and owner wise is a big factor with this demise imo. It’s normalised. It’s pitiful. This thread isn’t asking: “was MON any good?”. It is asking would MON have done better. Which is fucking pointless. Neither are good enough. Standards are so fucking low.
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Post by stayingupforbigbazza on Dec 3, 2023 0:02:10 GMT
Yes
Next question.
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Post by roylandstoke on Dec 3, 2023 6:43:53 GMT
This thread isn’t asking: “was MON any good?”. It is asking would MON have done better. Which is fucking pointless. Neither are good enough. Standards are so fucking low. I don’t want to upset you Bayern, but the truth is all of our opinions on this board could be viewed as pretty pointless( even yours). None of us are in positions of power; we are all just pissing in the breeze.
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Post by Trouserdog on Dec 3, 2023 7:01:29 GMT
MON should have gone at the end of the 21/22 season. He'd run his race and you could see he'd run out of ideas. He'd needlessly disappeared down a 5-3-2 rabbithole, invested everything into one doomed-to-fail system, and was so deep in that by the end he was standing in a full state of catatonia on the touchline, unable to do a thing about the shambles that was playing out in front of him on a weekly basis. We were heading down under him, with the only hope being that he'd have somehow woken up, switched systems and dragged us out of trouble like he had when he first arrived.
However, I don't think Neil has done any better. The only bit of hope I've got is that I think he has the system right, but his summer defensive recruitment has been so poor that he's left us without any hope of a workable tactic being implemented.
Given the circumstances they worked under, if AN was sacked tomorrow (any chance we could make it today?) MON would be remembered as the better manager.
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Post by gawa on Dec 10, 2023 2:39:48 GMT
MON should have gone at the end of the 21/22 season. He'd run his race and you could see he'd run out of ideas. He'd needlessly disappeared down a 5-3-2 rabbithole, invested everything into one doomed-to-fail system, and was so deep in that by the end he was standing in a full state of catatonia on the touchline, unable to do a thing about the shambles that was playing out in front of him on a weekly basis. We were heading down under him, with the only hope being that he'd have somehow woken up, switched systems and dragged us out of trouble like he had when he first arrived. However, I don't think Neil has done any better. The only bit of hope I've got is that I think he has the system right, but his summer defensive recruitment has been so poor that he's left us without any hope of a workable tactic being implemented. Given the circumstances they worked under, if AN was sacked tomorrow (any chance we could make it today?) MON would be remembered as the better manager. I disagree. Firstly the PPG from the games ONeill/Holden managed was higher than that achieved by Alex Neil over the whole season. And that was the ppg from a bad start too. I struggle to think of a single Stoke City footballer who played better football under Alex Neil than they did under Michael O'Neill so to suggest we were destined for relegation is absurd especially with such a small sample size of games. I think alot of fans refuse to truly acknowledge how of a hindrance FFP was too. Due to the contracts which players were on he inherited no sellable assets. Managed to develop Collins, Souttar, Brown and Tymon and turn them into players which demanded a fee. In one transfer window Alex Neil spent over 3x more than Michael O'Neills whole tenure. In the summer of 2022 the transfer budget for signing players was a grand sum of £0 spent. How can you possibly build and improve a side when you can't rub two pennies together. And how can you suggest you're certain we'd be relegated based on 5 league games, 3 of which were against who ended up being the top 7. With about 5 days remaining on the transfer window too. I don't think things progressed as quickly as many would have liked or hoped it would under Michael O'Neill and fans grew impatient wanting faster progress and quick success. However when the clubs points total and goal difference has regressed every single season since 2014 with the exception of Michael's 3 seasons where there was continued improvement; maybe a pair of safe hands was a better idea than another roll of the dice and ultimately another clean up job for someone else to now do. It's very easy to blame Michael O'Neill for alot of the transfer dealings. But given how Rowett, Jones and Neil have got on with their war chests. I'd hate to think what sort of players they'd have signed had they been working under similar constraints. Aside from Jack Clarke while at Sunderland under Alex Neil. Can anyone honestly list a player which played better football under Rowett, Jones or Alex Neil while at Stoke. I'd be surprised if it would be more than one hand, and that's a stretch. There was a section of the fan base on this forum who went on a long term crusade against the manager and were relentless for weeks on end. Every bad spell the same names would appear with "x losses in x games" thread titles. Many of these then when granted their wish were the first to say "needs time to implement his system", "inherited a squad which wasn't fit", "Issue is they're not well trained", "needs his own players", "needs a preseason", "players need to gel". Those posters on this forum are far far too stubborn to come out now and into this thread and give a very simple obvious answer. Which is of course Michael O'Neill would have done better. Every single statistic shows it - there's no debate. I can understand why some wanted a change of manager and expected quicker progress. But I can't understand how some still persist with this illusion that he'd have done worse than Alex Neil.
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Post by middleoftheboothen on Dec 10, 2023 3:07:15 GMT
MON should have gone at the end of the 21/22 season. He'd run his race and you could see he'd run out of ideas. He'd needlessly disappeared down a 5-3-2 rabbithole, invested everything into one doomed-to-fail system, and was so deep in that by the end he was standing in a full state of catatonia on the touchline, unable to do a thing about the shambles that was playing out in front of him on a weekly basis. We were heading down under him, with the only hope being that he'd have somehow woken up, switched systems and dragged us out of trouble like he had when he first arrived. However, I don't think Neil has done any better. The only bit of hope I've got is that I think he has the system right, but his summer defensive recruitment has been so poor that he's left us without any hope of a workable tactic being implemented. Given the circumstances they worked under, if AN was sacked tomorrow (any chance we could make it today?) MON would be remembered as the better manager. I disagree. Firstly the PPG from the games ONeill/Holden managed was higher than that achieved by Alex Neil over the whole season. And that was the ppg from a bad start too. I struggle to think of a single Stoke City footballer who played better football under Alex Neil than they did under Michael O'Neill so to suggest we were destined for relegation is absurd especially with such a small sample size of games. I think alot of fans refuse to truly acknowledge how of a hindrance FFP was too. Due to the contracts which players were on he inherited no sellable assets. Managed to develop Collins, Souttar, Brown and Tymon and turn them into players which demanded a fee. In one transfer window Alex Neil spent over 3x more than Michael O'Neills whole tenure. In the summer of 2022 the transfer budget for signing players was a grand sum of £0 spent. How can you possibly build and improve a side when you can't rub two pennies together. And how can you suggest you're certain we'd be relegated based on 5 league games, 3 of which were against who ended up being the top 7. With about 5 days remaining on the transfer window too. I don't think things progressed as quickly as many would have liked or hoped it would under Michael O'Neill and fans grew impatient wanting faster progress and quick success. However when the clubs points total and goal difference has regressed every single season since 2014 with the exception of Michael's 3 seasons where there was continued improvement; maybe a pair of safe hands was a better idea than another roll of the dice and ultimately another clean up job for someone else to now do. It's very easy to blame Michael O'Neill for alot of the transfer dealings. But given how Rowett, Jones and Neil have got on with their war chests. I'd hate to think what sort of players they'd have signed had they been working under similar constraints. Aside from Jack Clarke while at Sunderland under Alex Neil. Can anyone honestly list a player which played better football under Rowett, Jones or Alex Neil while at Stoke. I'd be surprised if it would be more than one hand, and that's a stretch. There was a section of the fan base on this forum who went on a long term crusade against the manager and were relentless for weeks on end. Every bad spell the same names would appear with "x losses in x games" thread titles. Many of these then when granted their wish were the first to say "needs time to implement his system", "inherited a squad which wasn't fit", "Issue is they're not well trained", "needs his own players", "needs a preseason", "players need to gel". Those posters on this forum are far far too stubborn to come out now and into this thread and give a very simple obvious answer. Which is of course Michael O'Neill would have done better. Every single statistic shows it - there's no debate. I can understand why some wanted a change of manager and expected quicker progress. But I can't understand how some still persist with this illusion that he'd have done worse than Alex Neil. He needed sacking in the summer but we waited until the season had started just as AN needs sacking now but our board will probably wait too long. He did well to keep us up and clear alot of the deadwood out and he has been the best manager we've had since relegation but his time was up mate. Whether or not he would have done better we will never know but he started last season terribly and it looked like we were in big trouble if we stuck with him which is the same predicament we are in now because the board insists on giving full power to every manager they hire like we are back in the 90's. Until that changes we face this kind of shit every season where the manager, backroom staff, players and tea lady change because the next manager gets to choose their own again.
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Post by wakeypotter on Dec 10, 2023 8:41:54 GMT
Personally I think mon got sacked abit too late but would he have done better than AN …. Absolutely would
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Post by theonlooker on Dec 10, 2023 8:48:30 GMT
The only thing you can say about MON is we ended up doubling/trebling our money on Jacob Brown, whilst making a huge profit on Collins and Souttar.
Without the latter two we'd be in League One having suffered a FFP penalty and without all of them them the current conman in the dugout wouldn't have been able to spend a penny.
It's a shame how it ended up with MON because certainly the early days were very positive and despite the heavy shackles of FFP we were never in any serious trouble of dropping whilst developing some of the kids. I think history will view him quite well overall and he deserves that.
Like all managers at this level though he did have his weak spots and made some pretty bad signings.
Again though, Dwight Gayle. A player not suited to his style similar to Ward for Nathan's diamond, Afobe and McClean for Rowetts 433 and Haks, JunHo, Wesley and Mmaee for the current manager.
Something very wrong somewhere.
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