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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 17, 2023 16:45:01 GMT
It is. MON totally lost the plot and the midfield was a shit show under him. He also signed Jordan Thompson. The evidence suggests he doesn’t know much about central midfield. The evidence? What some random information you’ve picked out to support what you believe? As i said, you can’t even recall basic information correctly so pardon me if i regard your ability to analyse anything even remotely complex as effectively bollocks. Anyone signing Jordan Thompson for this league should be dismissed as a know nothing. Let’s not beat about the bush.
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Post by neddy on Jul 17, 2023 16:58:22 GMT
Was anything said as to why Pearson didn’t play on Saturday? Did I miss it?
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Post by xchpotter on Jul 17, 2023 17:05:49 GMT
Was anything said as to why Pearson didn’t play on Saturday? Did I miss it? Think he was a couple of weeks behind the others, that’s all hopefully so being eased into fitness.
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Post by biddulphchav on Jul 18, 2023 4:14:24 GMT
The evidence? What some random information you’ve picked out to support what you believe? As i said, you can’t even recall basic information correctly so pardon me if i regard your ability to analyse anything even remotely complex as effectively bollocks. Anyone signing Jordan Thompson for this league should be dismissed as a know nothing. Let’s not beat about the bush. What a stupid statement 😂 Lol. Well anyone signing Eric Djemba Djemba for the Prem could be classified the same way. Thankfully not everyone is as simple as you are
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 18, 2023 6:35:31 GMT
Anyone signing Jordan Thompson for this league should be dismissed as a know nothing. Let’s not beat about the bush. What a stupid statement 😂 Lol. Well anyone signing Eric Djemba Djemba for the Prem could be classified the same way. Thankfully not everyone is as simple as you are Apart from that was an aberration. MON was an awful manager for most of his time here and said one of the most ridiculous comments about central midfield I’ve heard from a professional. That’s backed up by not really having a midfield in his time here and him signing awful samey central midfielders.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jul 18, 2023 7:03:40 GMT
Anyone signing Jordan Thompson for this league should be dismissed as a know nothing. Let’s not beat about the bush. What a stupid statement 😂 Lol. Well anyone signing Eric Djemba Djemba for the Prem could be classified the same way. Thankfully not everyone is as simple as you are Signing a foreign player from a different country is a bit different to signing a domestic player who MON knew all about after seeing him when he was manager of Northern Ireland though isn’t it. I’m with Bayern on this, MON’s comments about what you need in central midfield were naive at best and the proof was in the pudding because the midfield was consistently overrun during his tenure at Stoke.
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Post by biddulphchav on Jul 18, 2023 11:50:12 GMT
What a stupid statement 😂 Lol. Well anyone signing Eric Djemba Djemba for the Prem could be classified the same way. Thankfully not everyone is as simple as you are Signing a foreign player from a different country is a bit different to signing a domestic player who MON knew all about after seeing him when he was manager of Northern Ireland though isn’t it. I’m with Bayern on this, MON’s comments about what you need in central midfield were naive at best and the proof was in the pudding because the midfield was consistently overrun during his tenure at Stoke. What comments are you referring to? From what I remember, he basically said he didn’t want a midfielder who could only defend, and that modern day midfielders have to contribute to all phases - I.e. they need to be good on the ball. This is borne out in the premier league and Ben Pearson is more than a sitting : defensive midfielder. Despite the comments, he signed Obi Mikel who was as close to the Makelele mould as I’ve seen in recent years, so I’m genuinely interested to hear what you recall him saying?
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Post by biddulphchav on Jul 18, 2023 11:56:25 GMT
What a stupid statement 😂 Lol. Well anyone signing Eric Djemba Djemba for the Prem could be classified the same way. Thankfully not everyone is as simple as you are Apart from that was an aberration. MON was an awful manager for most of his time here and said one of the most ridiculous comments about central midfield I’ve heard from a professional. That’s backed up by not really having a midfield in his time here and him signing awful samey central midfielders. An aberration? What about Kleberson then? Plenty of other examples of top managers getting it wrong, far more spectacularly than Thompson, who was always going to be a squad player.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 18, 2023 12:04:43 GMT
Apart from that was an aberration. MON was an awful manager for most of his time here and said one of the most ridiculous comments about central midfield I’ve heard from a professional. That’s backed up by not really having a midfield in his time here and him signing awful samey central midfielders. An aberration? What about Kleberson then? Plenty of other examples of top managers getting it wrong, far more spectacularly than Thompson, who was always going to be a squad player. He’s not good enough to be a squad player though. He’s an average league one player. He hasn’t signed one good central midfielder for us.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jul 18, 2023 12:08:06 GMT
Mikel didn't play anything like Makelele when he was here. He did for Chelsea, but he didn't play with anything like the positional discipline we needed in that role when he was here. Nobody MON signed in midfield did bar Thompson. What he said was that he didn't believe in having a holding midfielder that breaks up play and that we'd compensate by retaining possession in key areas. But all good teams have someone disciplined who can play a screening role when required, even if it's not exclusively what they do. Pearson understood that. Mikel, Sawyers didn't seem to, at least not for Stoke. Allen did in spells with the right partner but at others was a dog with a balloon. www.stokesentinel.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/stoke-city-bournemouth-team-news-6079294
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Post by biddulphchav on Jul 18, 2023 12:15:41 GMT
Mikel didn't play anything like Makelele when he was here. He did for Chelsea, but he didn't play with anything like the positional discipline we needed in that role when he was here. Nobody MON signed in midfield did bar Thompson. What he said was that he didn't believe in having a holding midfielder that breaks up play and that we'd compensate by retaining possession in key areas. But all good teams have someone disciplined who can play a screening role when required, even if it's not exclusively what they do. Pearson understood that. Mikel, Sawyers didn't seem to, at least not for Stoke. Allen did in spells with the right partner but at others was a dog with a balloon. www.stokesentinel.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/stoke-city-bournemouth-team-news-6079294We were set up as a back 3/5. If you play a sitting midfielder in that role that’s a very defensive set up and just invites the opposition on to you.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jul 18, 2023 12:17:17 GMT
Mikel didn't play anything like Makelele when he was here. He did for Chelsea, but he didn't play with anything like the positional discipline we needed in that role when he was here. Nobody MON signed in midfield did bar Thompson. What he said was that he didn't believe in having a holding midfielder that breaks up play and that we'd compensate by retaining possession in key areas. But all good teams have someone disciplined who can play a screening role when required, even if it's not exclusively what they do. Pearson understood that. Mikel, Sawyers didn't seem to, at least not for Stoke. Allen did in spells with the right partner but at others was a dog with a balloon. www.stokesentinel.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/stoke-city-bournemouth-team-news-6079294We were set up as a back 3/5. If you play a sitting midfielder in that role that’s a very defensive set up and just invites the opposition on to you. There isn't a decent team who plays a back 3/5 who doesn't have someone at least offering some level of protection for the defence, even if that midfielder doesn't exclusively play as a DM.
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Post by biddulphchav on Jul 18, 2023 13:28:55 GMT
We were set up as a back 3/5. If you play a sitting midfielder in that role that’s a very defensive set up and just invites the opposition on to you. There isn't a decent team who plays a back 3/5 who doesn't have someone at least offering some level of protection for the defence, even if that midfielder doesn't exclusively play as a DM. Isn’t that pretty much what MoN said with regard to how they set up? One player in the midfield was to sit a little deeper - and the other two had more licence to push on - but the sitter was also expected to be good on the ball so we could retain possession better?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jul 18, 2023 13:34:30 GMT
There isn't a decent team who plays a back 3/5 who doesn't have someone at least offering some level of protection for the defence, even if that midfielder doesn't exclusively play as a DM. Isn’t that pretty much what MoN said with regard to how they set up? One player in the midfield was to sit a little deeper - and the other two had more licence to push on - but the sitter was also expected to be good on the ball so we could retain possession better? There's sitting deeper though and there's actually screening and having some positional discipline and being able to put a foot in when necessary. I don't think any of the midfielders he signed bar Thompson really did that. Sawyers off the ball was a disgrace and he should've been played as a 10 or not at all. Mikel played more as a box-to-box type and was often nowhere when we were on the back foot. Allen and Mikel was a dreadful pairing. Allen and Baker worked better as Allen seemed to trust Baker more and so played a more disciplined, restrained role. Neither Laurent nor Baker looked good as the deeper midfielder. Kilkenny, who knows as he didn't seem to want to play him. MON talked about the balance in midfield but he didn't ever quite find it imo.
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Post by biddulphchav on Jul 18, 2023 13:38:26 GMT
Isn’t that pretty much what MoN said with regard to how they set up? One player in the midfield was to sit a little deeper - and the other two had more licence to push on - but the sitter was also expected to be good on the ball so we could retain possession better? There's sitting deeper though and there's actually screening and having some positional discipline and being able to put a foot in when necessary. I don't think any of the midfielders he signed bar Thompson really did that. Sawyers off the ball was a disgrace and he should've been played as a 10 or not at all. Mikel played more as a box-to-box type and was often nowhere when we were on the back foot. Allen and Mikel was a dreadful pairing. Allen and Baker worked better as Allen seemed to trust Baker more and so played a more disciplined, restrained role. Neither Laurent nor Baker looked good as the deeper midfielder. Kilkenny, who knows as he didn't seem to want to play him. MON talked about the balance in midfield but he didn't ever quite find it imo. I agree he never quite found it, maybe got close with Allen and Baker, but I could see what he was trying to do. The days of players like Denis Wise are gone, football has moved on, midfielders have to be able to play first and foremost in the era of the high press. Similar to how the role of the goalkeeper has transformed. I think Bayern is still living in the 90’s thinking we need a lump sitting in front of the back 4.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jul 18, 2023 14:31:21 GMT
Signing a foreign player from a different country is a bit different to signing a domestic player who MON knew all about after seeing him when he was manager of Northern Ireland though isn’t it. I’m with Bayern on this, MON’s comments about what you need in central midfield were naive at best and the proof was in the pudding because the midfield was consistently overrun during his tenure at Stoke. What comments are you referring to? From what I remember, he basically said he didn’t want a midfielder who could only defend, and that modern day midfielders have to contribute to all phases - I.e. they need to be good on the ball. This is borne out in the premier league and Ben Pearson is more than a sitting : defensive midfielder. Despite the comments, he signed Obi Mikel who was as close to the Makelele mould as I’ve seen in recent years, so I’m genuinely interested to hear what you recall him saying? I’ll quote MON directly from this article www.stokecityfc.com/news/2021/october/19/-we-re-happy-with-midfield-options----o-neill/‘O'Neill said ahead of tonight's clash witb the Cherries: "It’s always difficult to get the balance right, we probably don’t have that defensive-minded midfielder, we’ve played Joe in there at times, other times we’ve played Joe and Romaine as we did on Saturday. "We’ve had Joe and Jordan Thompson, Romaine and Jordan Thompson so we have various combinations in there but I don’t think we have that holding midfield player that breaks up play and that’s a big part of their game. "We look more for a midfield player that helps us build the game, that has been a big part of what we’ve looked for as opposed to just being destructive.’ MON clearly thought that you can get by without a defensive minded midfielder if you’ve got players that can retain possession. Based on the performances I witnessed during his tenure and how frequently our midfield was overrun that line of thinking has been shown to be complete bollocks. Mikel also didn’t play anything like Makelele during his time at Stoke so apart from the fact they both played for Chelsea I don’t understand that link at all.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 18, 2023 16:38:47 GMT
There's sitting deeper though and there's actually screening and having some positional discipline and being able to put a foot in when necessary. I don't think any of the midfielders he signed bar Thompson really did that. Sawyers off the ball was a disgrace and he should've been played as a 10 or not at all. Mikel played more as a box-to-box type and was often nowhere when we were on the back foot. Allen and Mikel was a dreadful pairing. Allen and Baker worked better as Allen seemed to trust Baker more and so played a more disciplined, restrained role. Neither Laurent nor Baker looked good as the deeper midfielder. Kilkenny, who knows as he didn't seem to want to play him. MON talked about the balance in midfield but he didn't ever quite find it imo. I agree he never quite found it, maybe got close with Allen and Baker, but I could see what he was trying to do. The days of players like Denis Wise are gone, football has moved on, midfielders have to be able to play first and foremost in the era of the high press. Similar to how the role of the goalkeeper has transformed. I think Bayern is still living in the 90’s thinking we need a lump sitting in front of the back 4. We have shown in the last 7 years that we need exactly that.
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Post by Northy on Jul 19, 2023 7:12:27 GMT
I agree he never quite found it, maybe got close with Allen and Baker, but I could see what he was trying to do. The days of players like Denis Wise are gone, football has moved on, midfielders have to be able to play first and foremost in the era of the high press. Similar to how the role of the goalkeeper has transformed. I think Bayern is still living in the 90’s thinking we need a lump sitting in front of the back 4. We have shown bin the last 7 years that we need exactly that. Yep, someone to help out our porous midfields and our fast ball playing slow lumps of centre halves
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Post by biddulphchav on Jul 19, 2023 13:44:26 GMT
What comments are you referring to? From what I remember, he basically said he didn’t want a midfielder who could only defend, and that modern day midfielders have to contribute to all phases - I.e. they need to be good on the ball. This is borne out in the premier league and Ben Pearson is more than a sitting : defensive midfielder. Despite the comments, he signed Obi Mikel who was as close to the Makelele mould as I’ve seen in recent years, so I’m genuinely interested to hear what you recall him saying? I’ll quote MON directly from this article www.stokecityfc.com/news/2021/october/19/-we-re-happy-with-midfield-options----o-neill/‘O'Neill said ahead of tonight's clash witb the Cherries: "It’s always difficult to get the balance right, we probably don’t have that defensive-minded midfielder, we’ve played Joe in there at times, other times we’ve played Joe and Romaine as we did on Saturday. "We’ve had Joe and Jordan Thompson, Romaine and Jordan Thompson so we have various combinations in there but I don’t think we have that holding midfield player that breaks up play and that’s a big part of their game. "We look more for a midfield player that helps us build the game, that has been a big part of what we’ve looked for as opposed to just being destructive.’ MON clearly thought that you can get by without a defensive minded midfielder if you’ve got players that can retain possession. Based on the performances I witnessed during his tenure and how frequently our midfield was overrun that line of thinking has been shown to be complete bollocks. Mikel also didn’t play anything like Makelele during his time at Stoke so apart from the fact they both played for Chelsea I don’t understand that link at all. I read the article - I think you’ll find the line of thinking is pretty much the norm not only in the Premier League but also the championship. It’s also the case lower down the leagues - there has been a change in football and it’s become more possession based, if you aren’t aware of that them you must be living under a rock. I don’t think we ever got the balance right, we didn’t have a player or a combination that managed both sides of the game effectively - but the line of thinking wasn’t bollocks, what you’ve said is the only bollocks around here 😂
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Post by biddulphchav on Jul 19, 2023 13:49:43 GMT
I agree he never quite found it, maybe got close with Allen and Baker, but I could see what he was trying to do. The days of players like Denis Wise are gone, football has moved on, midfielders have to be able to play first and foremost in the era of the high press. Similar to how the role of the goalkeeper has transformed. I think Bayern is still living in the 90’s thinking we need a lump sitting in front of the back 4. We have shown in the last 7 years that we need exactly that. No, we’ve shown we need to recruit better players not that the system has been the wrong thing. We’ve not had a properly balanced midfield for a long long time. We don’t need a throw-back ‘destroyer’, that will only make us worse and unable to cope with teams that use a high press. We need our midfielders to be able to retain the ball and to get stuck in and protect the back 4, in a combination. Let’s see if we can get that right this season. Anyway, I’ve find you very tedious, so if you reply you’ll just be replying to yourself as you’ve bored me to death on this topic with your myopic view of everything, bye.
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Post by dirtclod on Jul 19, 2023 14:14:12 GMT
Yes I was one of those thinking that we needed that "destroyer type" too. But having watched these teams play the past few years - the game's moved on. There's a reason you don't see many players like that any more. Officials now card people for a standard tackle and other teams would just route play around a player like that. (Unless they're angling for a penalty) Still like a "cynical" foul though as opposed to just letting them run past you, shrugging the shoulders and yelling at teammates to pick up your slack.
Now I just want to see players who don't get nervous on the ball after 2 seconds, can pass it and are willing to work as a team. And I like speed. (Granted, that's expensive - but I still like it)
Starting to see a spine get gradually built here. Don't think we can get ALL that we need in one window, but hopefully we're working towards a top half team for this season, which in my eyes would be an achievement given the recent past. Still think AN knows what he's doing - he's not perfect, but unlike several previous managers, seems to have some sort of a plan. Doesn't look like they're still trying to use a dart board for recruitment.
Will shut up now before I get TOO positive and get arrested.
Edit: And Oh, since it's a Ben Pearson thread - yes! I like Ben Pearson.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 19, 2023 21:02:52 GMT
We have shown in the last 7 years that we need exactly that. No, we’ve shown we need to recruit better players not that the system has been the wrong thing. We’ve not had a properly balanced midfield for a long long time. We don’t need a throw-back ‘destroyer’, that will only make us worse and unable to cope with teams that use a high press. We need our midfielders to be able to retain the ball and to get stuck in and protect the back 4, in a combination. Let’s see if we can get that right this season. Anyway, I’ve find you very tedious, so if you reply you’ll just be replying to yourself as you’ve bored me to death on this topic with your myopic view of everything, bye. We absolutely do. We have constantly been waltzed through. We need someone to provide a screen and pass it short. Which is what Pearson does. And what you mean is you don’t like that I’m not falling in line with your view so will cry about that whilst you carry on with your myopic view…..I mean opinion. So funny.
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Post by stokiedan17 on Jul 19, 2023 21:09:13 GMT
Mikel didn't play anything like Makelele when he was here. He did for Chelsea, but he didn't play with anything like the positional discipline we needed in that role when he was here. Nobody MON signed in midfield did bar Thompson. What he said was that he didn't believe in having a holding midfielder that breaks up play and that we'd compensate by retaining possession in key areas. But all good teams have someone disciplined who can play a screening role when required, even if it's not exclusively what they do. Pearson understood that. Mikel, Sawyers didn't seem to, at least not for Stoke. Allen did in spells with the right partner but at others was a dog with a balloon. www.stokesentinel.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/stoke-city-bournemouth-team-news-6079294God I completely forgot we signed Mikel and sawyers. I always thought sawyers was class and wouldn’t mind having him back
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jul 19, 2023 21:09:30 GMT
It’s been slow and I don’t think the manager has achieved some transfer targets he would like but so far it’s been steady and there is still time for a few more. I’m confident we are building a decent squad, it’s very competitive so perhaps Neil was hasty saying we will get this amount of players for a certain time, which I’m surprised about. He may as well just keep his powder dry
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Post by pottersrule on Jul 19, 2023 22:57:07 GMT
What a stupid statement 😂 Lol. Well anyone signing Eric Djemba Djemba for the Prem could be classified the same way. Thankfully not everyone is as simple as you are Apart from that was an aberration. MON was an awful manager for most of his time here and said one of the most ridiculous comments about central midfield I’ve heard from a professional. That’s backed up by not really having a midfield in his time here and him signing awful samey central midfielders. I know he didn't sign Jordan Cousins,but he was the best of a bad bunch of defensive midfielders and he never played him 🤔
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Post by independent on Jul 19, 2023 23:15:20 GMT
Yes I was one of those thinking that we needed that "destroyer type" too. But having watched these teams play the past few years - the game's moved on. There's a reason you don't see many players like that any more. Officials now card people for a standard tackle and other teams would just route play around a player like that. (Unless they're angling for a penalty) Still like a "cynical" foul though as opposed to just letting them run past you, shrugging the shoulders and yelling at teammates to pick up your slack. Now I just want to see players who don't get nervous on the ball after 2 seconds, can pass it and are willing to work as a team. And I like speed. (Granted, that's expensive - but I still like it) Starting to see a spine get gradually built here. Don't think we can get ALL that we need in one window, but hopefully we're working towards a top half team for this season, which in my eyes would be an achievement given the recent past. Still think AN knows what he's doing - he's not perfect, but unlike several previous managers, seems to have some sort of a plan. Doesn't look like they're still trying to use a dart board for recruitment. Will shut up now before I get TOO positive and get arrested. Edit: And Oh, since it's a Ben Pearson thread - yes! I like Ben Pearson. Time will tell. But you do have more options when you have some cash to spend,whether on fees ,or wages.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jul 20, 2023 15:07:01 GMT
I’ll quote MON directly from this article www.stokecityfc.com/news/2021/october/19/-we-re-happy-with-midfield-options----o-neill/‘O'Neill said ahead of tonight's clash witb the Cherries: "It’s always difficult to get the balance right, we probably don’t have that defensive-minded midfielder, we’ve played Joe in there at times, other times we’ve played Joe and Romaine as we did on Saturday. "We’ve had Joe and Jordan Thompson, Romaine and Jordan Thompson so we have various combinations in there but I don’t think we have that holding midfield player that breaks up play and that’s a big part of their game. "We look more for a midfield player that helps us build the game, that has been a big part of what we’ve looked for as opposed to just being destructive.’ MON clearly thought that you can get by without a defensive minded midfielder if you’ve got players that can retain possession. Based on the performances I witnessed during his tenure and how frequently our midfield was overrun that line of thinking has been shown to be complete bollocks. Mikel also didn’t play anything like Makelele during his time at Stoke so apart from the fact they both played for Chelsea I don’t understand that link at all. I read the article - I think you’ll find the line of thinking is pretty much the norm not only in the Premier League but also the championship. It’s also the case lower down the leagues - there has been a change in football and it’s become more possession based, if you aren’t aware of that them you must be living under a rock. I don’t think we ever got the balance right, we didn’t have a player or a combination that managed both sides of the game effectively - but the line of thinking wasn’t bollocks, what you’ve said is the only bollocks around here 😂 No need for the condescension really. Becoming more possession based is fine but you’ve said yourself that we didn’t have a player or combination that could do both sides of the game effectively and that was a glaring error that MON was responsible for given he had several transfer windows to find that balance. In the article I linked he even said he was happy with his midfield options and the combinations they offered. I’m judging MON based on his own words and what played out on the pitch as a result of that line of thinking, and it was bollocks, because we were consistently opened up through the middle of the pitch leaving a creaking defence hopelessly exposed. If, and it’s a big if, MON had the right line of thinking like you suggest, then his execution of the idea was dismal.
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