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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 11, 2022 12:24:20 GMT
He’s deep but he’s not offering protection, he doesn’t drive forward, he isn’t incisive. I’d take him out and give Kilkenny a run of games alongside Thompson. He isn’t protective, it isn’t his skill. He doesn’t run with the ball, it isn’t his skill. He does well finding space outside of the box, but a) he’s obviously been told to play deeper and b) we never hold the ball up around that area. We have a player who is a standout at shooting from that region, coupled with the fact that goalkeepers in this league are crap. We have a weapon we don’t use. Not sure what Kilkenny will offer? He looks like a taller, more injured Woods to me. Recycles possession nicely into non-dangerous areas. Last season he was great at driving forward with the ball I thought. He’s not especially creative but he can carry it from deep and spray it wide, which is fine for that role. He’s stopped doing that for some reason. Kilkenny is flintier than Woods and can offer some protection. He doesn’t waste possession much and is good at finding the wide players. I don’t see how he’d make us worse in that area as things stand.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 11, 2022 12:24:45 GMT
He is being used too deep due to the lack of a proper CDM. Move him to a nr 10 role. He’s not looked good as a number 10 when he’s played there for us so far.
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Post by loosestools on Dec 11, 2022 12:35:02 GMT
Maybe playing in a role that he doesn't like is causing friction between him and AN? Perhaps that is why he looks ineffective and disinterested, but if he is playing poorly in a deep role and is poor as a nr 10 I really am at a loss as to where he should be playing, perhaps this is AN's issue with him. A space behind a nr 10 perhaps, a CAM or whatever it's called. We need another Dean Whitehead type as DM to break up play, there is no doubt about that.
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Post by cvillestokie on Dec 11, 2022 12:35:02 GMT
He isn’t protective, it isn’t his skill. He doesn’t run with the ball, it isn’t his skill. He does well finding space outside of the box, but a) he’s obviously been told to play deeper and b) we never hold the ball up around that area. We have a player who is a standout at shooting from that region, coupled with the fact that goalkeepers in this league are crap. We have a weapon we don’t use. Not sure what Kilkenny will offer? He looks like a taller, more injured Woods to me. Recycles possession nicely into non-dangerous areas. Last season he was great at driving forward with the ball I thought. He’s not especially creative but he can carry it from deep and spray it wide, which is fine for that role. He’s stopped doing that for some reason. Kilkenny is flintier than Woods and can offer some protection. He doesn’t waste possession much and is good at finding the wide players. I don’t see how he’d make us worse in that area as things stand. I just don’t see Kilkenny passing it forwards. He passes it sideways and backwards. When he passes it sideways, it’s to feet. I just feel Baker still offers more. Defensively, I can’t see Kilkenny doing better. I do agree with you that Baker does need dropping. All players do from time to time. Personally, I’d put Laurent in there with Thompson and have Powell in front. He offers more defensively (no option we have offers much going forward), so it may allow for more protection while our full backs move up the pitch. No matter who comes in, they need a spell of games. It’s not right to keep chopping and changing partnerships and formations. It doesn’t help any player.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 11, 2022 12:40:11 GMT
Last season he was great at driving forward with the ball I thought. He’s not especially creative but he can carry it from deep and spray it wide, which is fine for that role. He’s stopped doing that for some reason. Kilkenny is flintier than Woods and can offer some protection. He doesn’t waste possession much and is good at finding the wide players. I don’t see how he’d make us worse in that area as things stand. I just don’t see Kilkenny passing it forwards. He passes it sideways and backwards. When he passes it sideways, it’s to feet. I just feel Baker still offers more. Defensively, I can’t see Kilkenny doing better. I do agree with you that Baker does need dropping. All players do from time to time. Personally, I’d put Laurent in there with Thompson and have Powell in front. He offers more defensively (no option we have offers much going forward), so it may allow for more protection while our full backs move up the pitch. I’ve got no problem giving Laurent a go when he’s fit, though for me he’s been a big disappointment so far. I don’t have a huge problem with Kilkenny passing it sideways, the deeper midfielders usually do. It can’t always go forward. I think he does offer better protection, he did against Boro when he came on and against Sunderland.
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Post by cvillestokie on Dec 11, 2022 12:51:21 GMT
I just don’t see Kilkenny passing it forwards. He passes it sideways and backwards. When he passes it sideways, it’s to feet. I just feel Baker still offers more. Defensively, I can’t see Kilkenny doing better. I do agree with you that Baker does need dropping. All players do from time to time. Personally, I’d put Laurent in there with Thompson and have Powell in front. He offers more defensively (no option we have offers much going forward), so it may allow for more protection while our full backs move up the pitch. I’ve got no problem giving Laurent a go when he’s fit, though for me he’s been a big disappointment so far. I don’t have a huge problem with Kilkenny passing it sideways, the deeper midfielders usually do. It can’t always go forward. I think he does offer better protection, he did against Boro when he came on and against Sunderland. It can’t always go forward, sure. But making positive possession plays should be THE priority, which doesn’t seem to be the case. Fair enough though, re Kilkenny. I haven’t seen anything from him that makes me feel he could do better than Baker, but at present, he may not do any worse. It’s probably irrelevant anyways. He’ll come in, play 2 games and then breakdown.
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Post by Gary Hackett on Dec 11, 2022 12:56:39 GMT
We're now seeing the player I thought we signed.
He's not an AN type of player, not defensive enough to be a holding player and not creative enough to be a no.10, can't see where he fits in.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Dec 11, 2022 13:18:10 GMT
We're now seeing the player I thought we signed. He's not an AN type of player, not defensive enough to be a holding player and not creative enough to be a no.10, can't see where he fits in. In between surely?
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Post by shakermaker on Dec 11, 2022 22:47:29 GMT
Maybe playing in a role that he doesn't like is causing friction between him and AN? Perhaps that is why he looks ineffective and disinterested, but if he is playing poorly in a deep role and is poor as a nr 10 I really am at a loss as to where he should be playing, perhaps this is AN's issue with him. A space behind a nr 10 perhaps, a CAM or whatever it's called. We need another Dean Whitehead type as DM to break up play, there is no doubt about that. He’s definitely not a No 10 type player, but there’s no reason why he shouldn’t be doing better in a CDM role as he played in that position very well in the Turkish league a couple of seasons ago. He was the sole CDM though rather than sharing that space like he’s being asked to do now. Maybe he performs better when he’s dictating things by himself. Either way, his best position is as an attacking midfielder, ideally on the left of a midfield three or in front of a CDM where he can find or make space to shoot.
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Post by spiderpuss on Dec 12, 2022 8:58:41 GMT
I thought a lot of players weren't really at it on Saturday, players playing too deep and/or in the wrong position. I'm surprised we actually scored 2 the way we were set up. Was Baker's performance bad or just endemic of how we were set-up? When Baker was replaced by Powell, again too deep and Powell isn't some sort of Pseudo defender? I totally agree re the point about captaincy and somebody who's had to mark Messi out of the game is better placed than somebody who hasn't. It's a mess, as this thread demonstrates.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Dec 12, 2022 9:03:29 GMT
That purple patch where he was scoring frequently masked what an average player he is.
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Post by geoffsalmons on Dec 12, 2022 9:19:44 GMT
And yet Baker is our leading scorer albeit only with 5 and also has 4 assists- I cannot believe the support for Smallbone- he is spineless and pretty much passes backwards every time - for comparison he has played only 2 games less than Baker in a more attacking role and has scored once and has no assists.....
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 12, 2022 9:25:32 GMT
And yet Baker is our leading scorer albeit only with 5 and also has 4 assists- I cannot believe the support for Smallbone- he is spineless and pretty much passes backwards every time - for comparison he has played only 2 games less than Baker in a more attacking role and has scored once and has no assists..... Only one goal since September (and a pen at that) though. Don't think there's been much support for Smallbone has there?
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Post by geoffsalmons on Dec 12, 2022 10:00:16 GMT
More people are suggesting that smallbone deserved to stay on the pitch at the expense of Baker- only Bayern from what ive skimmed is suggesting that taking Baker off was a waste of a substitution- I agree Baker's form has dropped significantly but I would still give him more chance of nicking us a goal than smallbone
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Post by prestwichpotter on Dec 12, 2022 10:22:52 GMT
43 starts, 13 goals and 7 assists from midfield, he has a goal/assist every 182 minutes in a Stoke shirt.
There's clearly a player there, so it's up top Neil to come up with a way of getting the best out of him.........
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Post by nott1 on Dec 12, 2022 11:11:49 GMT
There’s no way he should have been subbed ahead Smallbone. Baker didn’t play well but that was some awful management. Very true!
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Post by nott1 on Dec 12, 2022 11:13:52 GMT
Hopefully elsewhere he's another hapless failure!
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Dec 12, 2022 12:31:03 GMT
Agree that Baker substitution was necessary today but I always question a managers decision to sub their teams captain unless showing signs of injury. & if things are that bad perhaps the captaincy situation/selection needs addressing. I remember that Gerrard kept hooking Villa captain John McGinn at Villa during the match due to poor form and that didn't end well for SG. Not saying a player deserves or has any right to stay on the pitch if playing poorly but there's something seriously wrong & concerning if you're captain and supposed leader, the inspirational one isn't delivering. To me it doesn't bode well & sends out the wrong signal to the other players to be substituting your captain. Can't say I ever recall the likes of Ryan Shawcross, Vince Overson, George Berry etc being subbed for playing poorly. Would like to hope it was a one off today and he was feeling unwell or something, but as has been eluded to, sadly today's poor performance doesn't appear to be a one off. The manager has every right to drop or withdraw the captain if they aren't performing. If it's a one off it's no big deal but if it starts happening regularly then there's an issue - the captain should be a regular on the pitch to the lead the team and if they aren't a regular they should be replaced as captain. Baker isn't Neil's choice as captain and he may well choose to go with someone different. That might not be a bad thing if Baker gets to concentrate on his game and gets back to the level of performance he had when he joined us. Maybe he isn't captain material. Incidentally I never really rated Shawcross as a captain and towards the end of his career he was being played when he shouldn't have been in part because successive managers wouldn't make the call and droop him. If Neil doesn't rate Baker as a captain it's far better he makes that decision early rather than play him on the grounds he's captain rather than he deserves his place in the team.
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Post by wakefieldstokie on Dec 12, 2022 12:44:47 GMT
Ultimately our midfield is spineless. Says it all when a bang average (no disrespect) player like Thompson is our best midfielder
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Post by middleoftheboothen on Dec 12, 2022 13:15:48 GMT
Definitely a good player in there as his goals and assists since he joined show us but he has seriously gone off the boil recently. Why I don't know and I guess that's one for the manager to work out and fix it because at the minute he's very much a passenger and we can't afford to carry anyone. One last point, I'd give the captaincy to Souttar straight away as he's made for it. This may take some weight of Baker's shoulders and get him playing in the way we have seen before.
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Post by shakermaker on Dec 12, 2022 13:19:55 GMT
Definitely a good player in there as his goals and assists since he joined show us but he has seriously gone off the boil recently. Why I don't know and I guess that's one for the manager to work out and fix it because at the minute he's very much a passenger and we can't afford to carry anyone. One last point, I'd give the captaincy to Souttar straight away as he's made for it. This may take some weight of Baker's shoulders and get him playing in the way we have seen before. I always thought Baker was an odd choice for captain, as there is nothing about his character or experience that particularly stands out. Harry is a fine fellow of a man. I have even more respect for him after his post WC interview with our club media last week. Perhaps he’s a bit quietly spoken, but you don’t need to shout yourself hoarse to carry authority in a dressing room. Giving Harry the armband would also do no harm in showing him how highly we think of him and it might convince him to stay with us beyond the summer.
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Post by middleoftheboothen on Dec 12, 2022 13:35:24 GMT
Definitely a good player in there as his goals and assists since he joined show us but he has seriously gone off the boil recently. Why I don't know and I guess that's one for the manager to work out and fix it because at the minute he's very much a passenger and we can't afford to carry anyone. One last point, I'd give the captaincy to Souttar straight away as he's made for it. This may take some weight of Baker's shoulders and get him playing in the way we have seen before. I always thought Baker was an odd choice for captain, as there is nothing about his character or experience that particularly stands out. Harry is a fine fellow of a man. I have even more respect for him after his post WC interview with our club media last week. Perhaps he’s a bit quietly spoken, but you don’t need to shout yourself hoarse to carry authority in a dressing room. Giving Harry the armband would also do no harm in showing him how highly we think of him and it might convince him to stay with us beyond the summer. Exactly my thinking mate. Give Souttar the captaincy and show him we are building a squad around him and we want him to lead us. He doesn't need to be so vocal as Ryan showed us there are many different ways to be a leader and noone did it better than Ryan. I see the same qualities in Harry that I saw in Ryan all those years ago.
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Post by owdestokie2 on Dec 12, 2022 13:38:46 GMT
For me the substitution of the captain today was justified because his form this season has been very poor including today for me. I can see him not getting picked in the near future if his poor form continues. I agree with his form. Trying to give him the benefit of the doubt last season he had JA doing a lot of the unseen work which allowed him to play with more freedom and possibly in his preferred role. This season has been a completely different ball game. Smallbone, inexperienced and lightweight. Laurent, well er? Clucas, injured/the scarlet pimpernel. Powell, injured and missing in action. Kilkenny, see Laurent. Thompson, injured and IMHO bang average. Out wide options. Tymon and Fosu…….flatter to deceive? Whether or not Baker is as good as we hoped/thought he was/is only time will tell. But the above demonstrates how far we’ve fallen.
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