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Post by gingerninja on Oct 3, 2022 10:32:48 GMT
I have to say that yesterday was worrying, up until that game I was impressed with the intensity levels, yesterday it seemed to have dropped off from the word go?.
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Post by independent on Oct 3, 2022 10:49:01 GMT
A.N. is an experienced, successful manager. I imagine he will navigate his way through this tricky period. I just hope that he is not relying on long term injured players like Souttar to make the difference. Remember how we were expecting Campbell to score shitloads upon his return. I think he needs to get the players available to him at the moment Organised,Fit if needed, and Motivated. Judging by what he has said about his previous jobs,he seems to adapt his approach to the circumstances that he finds himself in, and I expect he will do the same here. He certainly seems to be focused on getting results, whatever it takes.
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Post by gingerninja on Oct 3, 2022 11:14:29 GMT
I still think we could do with a fresh coaching set up, nice bloke as Rory appears to be, he has been around with successive failing managers and perhaps it might be time to have a re think in the backroom staff to Neil's own men?
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Post by milky on Oct 3, 2022 11:30:04 GMT
Again it all comes down to appalling timing from those at the very top.
3 days before the transfer window ends we replace a thoroughly nice( allegedly) yet failing chap with a horrible bastard ( allegedly) who was doing the business with his previous club.
Of course though he is left with the same core group of players that the nice chap assembled and if the HB has ruffled a few feathers and they are sulking, now what exactly?
Best case scenario is he manages to get through these next 3 months without too much damage,starts bringing his own men in and becomes a sort of modern day Lou.He needs some decent luck though in finding his Overson, Gleghorn and Stein that's for sure.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Oct 3, 2022 11:35:23 GMT
One thing I was surprised at yesterday was the complete lack of cynical fouls in trying to break up Watford’s attacks. This has surprised me because Neil’s teams have always excelled at doing this against us and I thought such a mentality would have been relativity easy to instil in the players.
Watford on the other hand were excellent at cynically fouling us at the first sign of danger.
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Post by Pugsley on Oct 3, 2022 11:35:27 GMT
Do we know what his approach is? Whatever approach, nice, nasty, friendly, inclusive or whatever doesn't seem to work. I'm pretty sure he's not told them to produce turgid, slow and gutless football. Yet still they manage to shit out that kind of performance. They are probably upset be absent he's making them work on their fitness. The lack of pride in their performance on Sunday was completely unacceptable for any professional sportsmen. Totally agree. Players usually last longer than managers so Neil has his work cut out. I expected so much more after having an extended break between games. It was shocking.
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Post by mistergumby on Oct 3, 2022 11:42:54 GMT
Not one for gossip and no way I'm ITK but two very good friends of mine are son in law and brother in law respectively to a former well known Stoke player who is still close to the club and most certainly is ITK. He insists that the dressing room is more than just split - it's completely fractured into any number of pieces and no one seems to know why or care much. You see the sort of disjointed performance we saw yesterday and well... it seems to fit.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2022 11:44:15 GMT
how do you coach players with no pride in their performance, who just give up at 2 nil down
george graham used to say never sign a player , who is dropping down a level , because they will think they are doing you a favour ,playing for you
that is easier said if you are manager of arsenal than manager of stoke
But for too long now we have been awash with players who think they are doing us a favour playing for us
we definately need different players , but it seems to be more than that .
We need a different club , that pays far lower wages for mediocrity , has players on shorter contracts with lower wages and bigger bonuses
the money you get paid at stoke for sitting on the bench , coming on now and then and doing not a lot is staggering
watford manager bilic signed a contract to the end of next season ( a season and a bit ) , with big bonuses if he can get them up to the prem , and a speedy exit if he can't
we need a bit of that here
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Post by musik on Oct 3, 2022 11:45:14 GMT
Not one for gossip and no way I'm ITK but two very good friends of mine are son in law and brother in law respectively to a former well known Stoke player who is still close to the club and most certainly is ITK. He insists that the dressing room is more than just split - it's completely fractured into any number of pieces and no one seems to know why or care much. You see the sort of disjointed performance we saw yesterday and well... it seems to fit. No bearing wall? 🤔
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Post by thevoid on Oct 3, 2022 12:05:32 GMT
It could well be the contrast in styles - style of management but also style of play. I said it early on that I thought the players we have would struggle in a high tempo system because they aren't used to it and I can see that to a degree. Players are making very basic mistakes because they are being asked to do the basics at a much higher tempo. It's easier to ramp the tempo down than it is up. The manager doesn't have the time though and he needs to figure it out. As I've said on other threads, he can't afford to be getting to 10 games with only 1 or 2 wins. I feel for him to some degree, with the setup of the club and also the injury situation but when push comes to shove, he'll be on around 1.5M a year and he has a job to do. Long term I think he'll do a very good job here but he needs to jockey the tricky early doors to ensure he gets there... Let’s say that happens though and his record ends up being 1 win in 10. What then? We sure as shit can’t sack him (can we?). I almost can’t believe we’re having that kind of conversation. Not a criticism of you onlooker, more an indictment of the utter mess we’ve found ourselves in. I think Neil will get it right in time, but it may take 2 or 3 transfer windows. Which is ludicrous considering we’ve just bought what, 10 players? And any more performances like yesterday and any support he does have will dwindle away quickly. I absolutely feel sorry for him but we’re at a point where things need to be said and aired to get the fans back on side. Anyone else getting a sense of deja vu?
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Oct 3, 2022 12:14:06 GMT
If the players don't like ANs approach,tough fucking shit,he is the boss,just get on with what he decides,if you can't, put in a transfer request and see if anybody wants your useless arses.
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Post by iglugluk on Oct 3, 2022 12:22:45 GMT
Not one for gossip and no way I'm ITK but two very good friends of mine are son in law and brother in law respectively to a former well known Stoke player who is still close to the club and most certainly is ITK. He insists that the dressing room is more than just split - it's completely fractured into any number of pieces and no one seems to know why or care much. You see the sort of disjointed performance we saw yesterday and well... it seems to fit. Definitely a worrying situation, if true. Unfortunately from the perspective of yesterday's game it has a ring of believability to it. How on Earth did we manage to bring in what amounts to a very different/new squad of players and yet manage to carry over the problems of the old set-up to the new set-up? Allowing a failing manager to rebuild the team was always a big risk and it should never have been allowed to happen.
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Post by stokemark on Oct 3, 2022 12:32:57 GMT
I mentioned it on the Josh Laurent thread but I stayed until the death yesterday (Franklin Stand) and watched in disbelief as Laurent left the pitch laughing and joking with a Watford player before turning to the exec boxes with a big grin on his face waving and blowing kisses to what I assume are his relatives.
Zero embarrassment, humility or ability to gauge the mood whatsoever
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Post by s7oke on Oct 3, 2022 12:34:46 GMT
One thing I was surprised at yesterday was the complete lack of cynical fouls in trying to break up Watford’s attacks. This has surprised me because Neil’s teams have always excelled at doing this against us and I thought such a mentality would have been relativity easy to instil in the players. Watford on the other hand we’re excellent at cynically fouling us at the first sign of danger. Not very often then 😁
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Oct 3, 2022 12:37:40 GMT
Not one for gossip and no way I'm ITK but two very good friends of mine are son in law and brother in law respectively to a former well known Stoke player who is still close to the club and most certainly is ITK. He insists that the dressing room is more than just split - it's completely fractured into any number of pieces and no one seems to know why or care much. You see the sort of disjointed performance we saw yesterday and well... it seems to fit. Did they say when or why this split/fracture occurred? Is the implication that it's down to Neil's stricter approach or is it a throwback to O'Neill?
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Post by knype on Oct 3, 2022 12:50:14 GMT
He’s probably told them to get fitter and maybe even do some homework on tactics: opposition and their own. They then get upset at the prospect of working for more than 10 hours a week and decide not to. Edit: they were probably upset that they couldn’t play FIFA on Sunday afternoon as well. This narrative that MON ran a holiday camp and let the players do what they want and Neil has had to whip them all into shape just sounds like bollocks to me personally...... Not sure about that, if he is only used to training international teams where all of the fitness work is done by their clubs, there maybe some truth in it?
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Post by cvillestokie on Oct 3, 2022 12:51:40 GMT
He’s probably told them to get fitter and maybe even do some homework on tactics: opposition and their own. They then get upset at the prospect of working for more than 10 hours a week and decide not to. Edit: they were probably upset that they couldn’t play FIFA on Sunday afternoon as well. This narrative that MON ran a holiday camp and let the players do what they want and Neil has had to whip them all into shape just sounds like bollocks to me personally...... I don’t believe he did run a holiday camp. I do question why we had a squad full of injured players though. It doesn’t help bring a squad to competitive fitness when half of them are always in the treatment room. They have looked off pace all season, it’s hard to remember more than one game really where we have won most of the 50-50s. Neil has commented that he’s tried to push them harder than they were used to. I’d be surprised if he was simply lying about that. I’d also be surprised if a modern day footballer came close to doing what’s akin to a full day of work. I’d be shocked if, after training, they sat down together and watched video after video of the opposition and of their own performances. They certainly don’t look like they know much about each other/the opposition. Edit: I don’t expect footballers in this division to be that talented. I do however, expect them to be organized and committed. Pulis’ walking drills used to wind up lots of players and were seen as an anomaly. However, at least we always knew what we were supposed to do and looked like a team.
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Post by onionman on Oct 3, 2022 12:58:29 GMT
He’s probably told them to get fitter and maybe even do some homework on tactics: opposition and their own. They then get upset at the prospect of working for more than 10 hours a week and decide not to. Edit: they were probably upset that they couldn’t play FIFA on Sunday afternoon as well. This narrative that MON ran a holiday camp and let the players do what they want and Neil has had to whip them all into shape just sounds like bollocks to me personally...... I don't think I've ever seen a Stoke team as shambolically unfit as that Millwall match though. Hard to see how that can point to anything other than a complacent attitude towards fitness. I'm getting the same ominous feeling as when Paul Lambert took over from Mark Hughes and vowed to get them disciplined, banning ketchup and the like. Hoping Neil has a bit more about him than Lambert.
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Post by metalhead on Oct 3, 2022 13:03:29 GMT
One thing I was surprised at yesterday was the complete lack of cynical fouls in trying to break up Watford’s attacks. This has surprised me because Neil’s teams have always excelled at doing this against us and I thought such a mentality would have been relativity easy to instil in the players. Watford on the other hand we’re excellent at cynically fouling us at the first sign of danger. I'm not sure cynical fouling is something that is asked of players round the pre-game coffee. It does require a level of training, a bit like some of the cynical diving and cheating that goes on. Captain Chocolate over at Newcastle is a real winner in some of the gamesmanship side... that's why we all absolutely hate him and hope gets a bullet in the face from a sniper rifle. Still, on the positive side.... erm, sorry, wasn't aware I needed to finish that sentence.
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Post by superpotter on Oct 3, 2022 13:05:13 GMT
I think any players that don’t like his approach ( probably because it’s different from Mr Nice Guy M. ONeils holiday camp) should hand in a transfer request and fuck off somewhere else . I know it’s not going to happen but just how I feel after yesterday’s embarrassing shitshow
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Post by prestwichpotter on Oct 3, 2022 13:14:36 GMT
This narrative that MON ran a holiday camp and let the players do what they want and Neil has had to whip them all into shape just sounds like bollocks to me personally...... I don’t believe he did run a holiday camp. I do question why we had a squad full of injured players though. It doesn’t help bring a squad to competitive fitness when half of them are always in the treatment room. They have looked off pace all season, it’s hard to remember more than one game really where we have won most of the 50-50s. Neil has commented that he’s tried to push them harder than they were used to. I’d be surprised if he was simply lying about that. I’d also be surprised if a modern day footballer came close to doing what’s akin to a full day of work. I’d be shocked if, after training, they sat down together and watched video after video of the opposition and of their own performances. They certainly don’t look like they know much about each other/the opposition. Edit: I don’t expect footballers in this division to be that talented. I do however, expect them to be organized and committed. Pulis’ walking drills used to wind up lots of players and were seen as an anomaly. However, at least we always knew what we were supposed to do and looked like a team. Apart from 2 games last season (Fulham 0-3, Middlesbrough 1-3) we were still in every game of last season going into injury time. I don't think that's the sign of a particularly unfit team, you can question the intensity the manager wanted the team to play at but not sure about the fitness? As for the injuries, the ones to our ain players were all just unlucky. Major injuries that could happen any time any where such as ACL, Achilles injuries or broken bones. As for the new manager questioning the fitness and intensity I take some of it with a pinch of salt, it's what new managers generally do in my experience.........
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Post by prestwichpotter on Oct 3, 2022 13:16:05 GMT
This narrative that MON ran a holiday camp and let the players do what they want and Neil has had to whip them all into shape just sounds like bollocks to me personally...... I don't think I've ever seen a Stoke team as shambolically unfit as that Millwall match though. Hard to see how that can point to anything other than a complacent attitude towards fitness. I'm getting the same ominous feeling as when Paul Lambert took over from Mark Hughes and vowed to get them disciplined, banning ketchup and the like. Hoping Neil has a bit more about him than Lambert. And the Blackpool game the following week our fitness was fine. Millwall was a very poor performance no doubt about that but in isolation I don't think it meant that much......
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Post by nottsover60 on Oct 3, 2022 13:18:50 GMT
Not one for gossip and no way I'm ITK but two very good friends of mine are son in law and brother in law respectively to a former well known Stoke player who is still close to the club and most certainly is ITK. He insists that the dressing room is more than just split - it's completely fractured into any number of pieces and no one seems to know why or care much. You see the sort of disjointed performance we saw yesterday and well... it seems to fit. Did they say when or why this split/fracture occurred? Is the implication that it's down to Neil's stricter approach or is it a throwback to O'Neill? I was told pretty much the same in the relegation season under Hughes by someone who was a former youth gk at Stoke and now is a scout who Stoke use/d (no longer see him at Mickleover). A bit worrying if it still exists now but he was very reluctant to go into detail but it wasn't just playing staff.
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Post by onionman on Oct 3, 2022 13:49:09 GMT
I don't think I've ever seen a Stoke team as shambolically unfit as that Millwall match though. Hard to see how that can point to anything other than a complacent attitude towards fitness. I'm getting the same ominous feeling as when Paul Lambert took over from Mark Hughes and vowed to get them disciplined, banning ketchup and the like. Hoping Neil has a bit more about him than Lambert. And the Blackpool game the following week our fitness was fine. Millwall was a very poor performance no doubt about that but in isolation I don't think it meant that much...... I don't think you can write off the Millwall game as a one-off. It suggested our whole pre-season was woefully inadequate. We looked shell-shocked to come up against a side that played at a fast pace and denied us time on the ball. It was like that first match against Bielsa's Leeds - except that this was Gary Rowett's Millwall. Agree we played quite well against Blackpool - maybe it suited us to play a team that doesn't get in your face so much. None of us know whether O'Neill really was running a holiday camp. But he has spoken openly about his disdain for the physical side of the game and clearly placed his faith in low-tempo football. All the signs suggest he placed a lower priority on fitness than other managers. You do that in the Championship and you'll fail more often than not.
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Post by stantheman on Oct 3, 2022 13:52:50 GMT
I mentioned it on the Josh Laurent thread but I stayed until the death yesterday (Franklin Stand) and watched in disbelief as Laurent left the pitch laughing and joking with a Watford player before turning to the exec boxes with a big grin on his face waving and blowing kisses to what I assume are his relatives. Zero embarrassment, humility or ability to gauge the mood whatsoever The last player I saw do that was Imbula.....
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Post by prestwichpotter on Oct 3, 2022 14:07:16 GMT
The problem seems to be continuing no matter how many new players we have. The summer saw us get rid of a fair few and undertake what was touted as a rebuild and yet here we are, the same problem has carried over. Because the “rebuild” was carried out by a manager who should have been sacked before it took place It was a "rebuild" based on 5 loan signings (now 6) and 3 free transfers (Laurent and Gayle being the 2 highest profile), his hands were still very much tied as Neill's will be in January I would imagine. We'll be left with 10 contracted players come the end of this season: Campbell, Gayle, Thompson, Wright-Phillips (2024) Souttar, Wilmott, Brown, Baker, Tymon, Laurent, Taylor (2025)
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Post by mistergumby on Oct 3, 2022 14:16:24 GMT
Not one for gossip and no way I'm ITK but two very good friends of mine are son in law and brother in law respectively to a former well known Stoke player who is still close to the club and most certainly is ITK. He insists that the dressing room is more than just split - it's completely fractured into any number of pieces and no one seems to know why or care much. You see the sort of disjointed performance we saw yesterday and well... it seems to fit. Did they say when or why this split/fracture occurred? Is the implication that it's down to Neil's stricter approach or is it a throwback to O'Neill? I was initially told this whilst O'Neill was still here in August. One suggestion was that players were very unsure of their longevity at the club, given the rate of playing staff turnover. Another was the players were unhappy at the level of chopping and changing of the team every week and the 'system' they were being shoehorned into. Another gripe was from players being bought in to the club (loan or permanent) and then barely being used. Former Stoke legend of my acquaintance also says some senior pros are not happy with Alex Neil since he rolled up for some reason - he's not sure why. Maybe they had it too easy under MoN and AN has lit a fire under them? Who knows? Maybe it will all come out in the wash.
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 3, 2022 14:20:36 GMT
I mentioned it on the Josh Laurent thread but I stayed until the death yesterday (Franklin Stand) and watched in disbelief as Laurent left the pitch laughing and joking with a Watford player before turning to the exec boxes with a big grin on his face waving and blowing kisses to what I assume are his relatives. Zero embarrassment, humility or ability to gauge the mood whatsoever I think it is symptomatic of the modern game. Players are overpaid from a young age, get everything easily, never have to rough it, and react negatively to discipline. There is no loyalty to employers and honouring contracts in this age. I'm not surprised at Wilder losing his job today. He probably went in cracking the whip, he is that type of manager, and the spoilt brats eventually down tools knowing they are safe on their contracts and if things aren't working its the manager that gets the chop. I don't know about Neil's management style but I think our major problems yesterday were our backline are too poor on the ball and easily pressed into mistakes and bad passes. Plus other players were "hiding" and not making themselves available to receive a pass. Nevertheless we still managed to get almost the same amount of possession as Watford, almost the same amount of shots, the same amount of corners, and more free kicks. The difference was the quality of play; Watford had far better players. It's no good crying for going back to FBs we don't have any good ones. We just have to be patient while Neil works things out and starts to get his own players in January.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Oct 3, 2022 14:23:44 GMT
Despite yesterdays debacle I’m still confident Neil is the right man for the job but it’s clearly not an easy fix because the recruitment has been terrible.
We’re in a bizarre position where the squad has been arranged with 3 at the back as the main plan but a few injuries, albeit to key players, means we look bang average. Ideally we’d change to a 4 at the back but we haven’t got wingers or full backs to play 442 or 433 without playing players out of position.
This season is a write off, we’ve got to hope our FFP situation gives us wriggle room next summer and Neil does a better job at squad building than MON.
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Post by cvillestokie on Oct 3, 2022 14:29:58 GMT
Despite yesterdays debacle I’m still confident Neil is the right man for the job but it’s clearly not an easy fix because the recruitment has been terrible. We’re in a bizarre position where the squad has been arranged with 3 at the back as the main plan but a few injuries, albeit to key players, means we look bang average. Ideally we’d change to a 4 at the back but we haven’t got wingers or full backs to play 442 or 433 without playing players out of position. This season is a write off, we’ve got to hope our FFP situation gives us wriggle room next summer and Neil does a better job at squad building than MON. Campbell, Gayle, Fosu, DWP. We have ample options in wide positions to play a 433. Brown will provide more when he is fit. We have Sterling, Fox, Clarke, Wilmot (at a stretch), who can play full back. Tymon will provide more when fit. It’s a nonsense that we haven’t got the players to play a flat four. It’s the only system we have players for.
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