|
Post by tommycarlsberg on Aug 31, 2022 15:57:34 GMT
Too many fingers, too many pies. I can't see any conflict between a 'journalist' being on the supporters council, an employee of the club is a blatant conflict of interests.
The supporters council is redundant anyway, so who cares. It's a symbolic thing made to make supporters feel better about themselves.
|
|
|
Post by Malcolm Clarke on Aug 31, 2022 15:59:22 GMT
This is a substitute for engaging with the substantive issues, but for the record I’m not phased by being dubbed a troublemaker by those in football who don’t want to engage the debate. My colleagues and I in the FSA are well used to it. I have absolutely nothing to gain by creating arguments for the sake of it, but neither will I shy away from tackling important but sensitive issues. Maybe in future you gather all relevant info before singling out one person, you say it isn’t personal but it looks that way when it’s clear others on the council are doing the exact same without mention or criticism. Exactly how could I do that ? One way would be for the club to publish on its website any Council members who are employees or have other roles with or involving the club. I would support that proposal as a way of increasing transparency.
|
|
|
Post by Malcolm Clarke on Aug 31, 2022 16:04:59 GMT
You obviously didn’t listen to yesterday’s press conference very closely then Sounds like this needs sorting out between you both before the game at the statue. If that happened I would certainly lose 😳
|
|
|
Post by chigstoke on Aug 31, 2022 16:34:08 GMT
Sounds like this needs sorting out between you both before the game at the statue. If that happened I would certainly lose 😳 Malc, even the 100/1 runner comes through every now and then Go get him!
|
|
|
Post by bertjones on Aug 31, 2022 22:10:35 GMT
It never is personal is it. Strange how you criticize one individual, and, when anyone questions it you come out all guns blazing with the total denial of “Gender based discrimination”.
Pull the other one.
Still bitter are we, that Angela has been the Chair of the Supporters Council, and done a far better job than you ever did or could. Something else for you to strenuously deny.
For the record, Angela is honest, totally trustworthy, and someone I would rather have representing me as a fan on the Supporters Council than someone like you.
I await the shock, horror and denials that will no doubt come from the OP, but as I said above, “Pull the other one”.
|
|
|
Post by thewonderstuff on Aug 31, 2022 22:21:00 GMT
Was tried years ago and told wasn't in any way feasible Yup, amazing how Brighton and other clubs have managed to make it feasible. Typical Stoke-on-Trent short-sightedness. With the cricket club closed after the match, I was exposed to just how utterly wank the traffic management is around the ground for the first time in a while. I would trust my 2 year old niece with a box of crayons to design a better system than the one that existed tonight. It really does make attending an utter fucking chore.
|
|
|
Post by whoareya on Aug 31, 2022 23:43:36 GMT
The Council has always had a battle to convince many fans that they should have confidence that it is useful and relevant. To have it chaired by someone with a formal role within the club will do nothing to improve that situation. From whatever angle you approach it, it simply is not a good idea.
|
|
|
Post by kustokie on Sept 1, 2022 0:36:10 GMT
We should thank all the candidates who stood in the recent Supporters Council election for putting themselves forward, whether or not they were successful. I know from my own experience, and, much more importantly, from that of FSA colleagues and affiliates up and down the country, that fans representative roles can be time-consuming and often under-appreciated. In recent years I (and others) have raised the question of why the Club doesn't publish the Council election voting figures. I couldn't think of another organisation whose members elect representatives which doesn't publish the results to the electorate, or a good reason why that shouldn't be done. It comes up every year not only because there is an election every year, but also because the Club has changed its practice both last year and this year, and it is appropriate to assess that. Until last year the Club didn't publish any figures. The reason given by the Chair of the Supporters Council was that publication of a very low number of votes for some candidates could deter them and others from standing. Whilst I appreciated the personal sensitivity of this argument, I don't think it trumps the requirement for good electoral practice and transparency. Last year the Club changed its practice and published the % of the total votes cast obtained by each of the successful candidates, but no actual figures. This year they published those %ages for all the candidates including the unsuccessful ones, so the above argument about candidates who didn't score well has been abandoned. This is a welcome advance but we are still not told the much more important information of how many votes were actually cast in total, and what the turnout was, i.e what proportion of supporters eligible to vote actually did so. It is essential to know this in order to assess the effectiveness of the Club's current approach to supporter engagement, and how important fans think the Council is. I fear, but would be very happy to be proved wrong, that the turnout % was very low. I was surprised that, as far as I could see, there was no promotion of the election over the tannoy, big screen or match programme at the recent home games against M'Boro and Sunderland. I can see no good reason why the Club shouldn't publicise the total number of votes cast and the turnout. One of the successful candidates, Angela (Smith), announced in her election statement that she has been appointed as General Manager of the Club's women's team. I wish her every success in that important role. As we know, women's football is enjoying a huge upturn in interest at the moment, which is great. It would be good to see that reflected at our club as well, and I'm sure that Angela will be working hard to achieve that. On the supporter side, in the FSA we now have a vibrant women's game supporter network at national level, and women's game supporter groups are being established at many clubs. Hopefully this will happen at Stoke. From reading the minutes, Women's game supporters issues have not so far featured heavily, if at all, in the work of the Supporters Council. That of course could change with the new levels of interest in the women's game. But when it does, it raises a self-evident issue of conflict of interest if the General Manager of the Club's women's team, who one would expect to respond to any such issues on behalf of the Club, is already sitting on the supporters' side of the table. Also, the Government has promised a review of the women's game, as recommended to them by Tracey Crouch in her fan-led review of football. The Club will no doubt submit evidence to that, and the Women's Game GM will presumably play a central role in formulating that. But suppose the supporters and the Supporters Council disagreed with the Club on how the women's game should develop (there are some quite controversial issues involved), but the GM is also one of the fans' reps ? I am not aware of any other Club where a club official is part of the supporters' side on a supporter engagement body, for obvious reasons. I don't think it's just a question of women's game issues being discussed. If you are a Club official but (very unusually) also representing fans on the engagement body, with the Club Chairman and Chief Operating Officer (your bosses) sitting on the other side of the table, it's only human nature that this might affect the way you fulfill your role, or at least be perceived by others to do so. I think this also applies to journalistic and media roles, which involve maintaining a working relationship with the Club and its officials, on both the playing and non-playing sides, and access to games via a media pass. I think fans reps. on supporter engagement bodies really should not have any formal relationship with the Club other than being an ordinary fan and having the same matchday experience as all the other fans. A perfectly legitimate response to these points might be that Angela declared her new Club role in her statement, that she came top of the poll and therefore the voters must be quite happy with the situation. I accept that, although I would guess that because she is already well-known, many voters either didn't feel they needed to read the statement, or if they did, perhaps didn't appreciate the possible conflict of interest implications. And, as stated above, we have not been told how many fans actually voted. It goes without saying that none of this is personal to Angela as an individual or any other Council member. They are really matters which the Club needs to address, as it is the process by which it meets its supporter engagement obligations under EFL rules. And I think it is quite likely that the new post-Crouch regulatory regime (assuming the new CMS Secretary of State doesn't abandon the whole thing ! ) will outlaw Club officials being able to represent fans on official fan-engagement bodies. When the statement is made “nothing personal” it usually is.
|
|
|
Post by PotterLog on Sept 1, 2022 1:38:33 GMT
It never is personal is it. Strange how you criticize one individual, and, when anyone questions it you come out all guns blazing with the total denial of “Gender based discrimination”. Pull the other one. Still bitter are we, that Angela has been the Chair of the Supporters Council, and done a far better job than you ever did or could. Something else for you to strenuously deny. For the record, Angela is honest, totally trustworthy, and someone I would rather have representing me as a fan on the Supporters Council than someone like you. I await the shock, horror and denials that will no doubt come from the OP, but as I said above, “Pull the other one”. People generally come out “all guns blazing” when they are accused of discrimination without any apparent foundation. The OP has raised a valid and quite concerning point in a totally measured and civil way. All you’ve done in response is throw out cheap insults. If you have a reasonable justification for somebody in the pay of the club being on an official body that makes representations to that club on behalf of supporters, let’s hear it. As it is there’s only one person coming across as bitter.
|
|
|
Post by swissstokie on Sept 1, 2022 10:28:59 GMT
I personally think the council has a much larger problem, the supporters council page states
"This provides a platform for a select number of fans representing a wide cross section of the supporter base to voice the general viewpoint and make a significant contribution in helping to shape the way the Club moves forward."
I have read the minutes of the last 5 meetings and key topics were - the sound system - lighting of the gordon banks statue - Matchday music - Info on subs on the big screen - Range of alcohol on sale
None of which feel like they are contributing to the way the club moves forward in any meaningful way
The one time the minutes mention anything strategic, when the council asked about the vision. The response was "The Club said that a range of scenarios have been considered and expressed a belief that having the right people at the Club is the most important factor." I'd expect more from Boris Johnson
The supporters council for me in its current guise is great PR for the club, especially if a key voice is an employee of the club who works as a journalist for the local radio station covering the club.
I personally think that the council should fulfil 2 roles 1 - To work with people like Anthony Emerson the supporter liaison officer. To collate requests (as seems to take up 90% of the current meetings from the minutes) from fans and work with him to prioritise and understand which ones can and should be funded by the club. 2 - To be a voice of the fans from a strategic perspective as stoke city makes it's big decisions. FFP, Stadium development, Ticket pricing, club appointments.
Number 2 probably needs a formalised position on the board for someone in the supporters council (if the club want to do it properly also probably needs some sort of voting rights), and probably needs a person who the rest of the board will see as a peer and trust but also know is a real dyed in the wool stoke fan who represents the people in the Boothen and other parts of the stadium.
I tried to find the mandates of the people who were elected but as I missed the whole process due to being unaware it was happening can't find anything.
|
|
|
Post by banksy1art on Sept 1, 2022 11:14:16 GMT
Yup, amazing how Brighton and other clubs have managed to make it feasible. Typical Stoke-on-Trent short-sightedness. I suspect it would be cheaper to run a cable car to Stoke station a little station and a path up to the ground would be no more than 50-100k. Piss all compared to the 2.5million sports bar they are building. Plus it would probably get funded by the council as it gets cars and traffic off the road and will increase town centre footfall and revenue! No brainer
|
|
|
Post by prestwichpotter on Sept 1, 2022 11:19:56 GMT
I suspect it would be cheaper to run a cable car to Stoke station a little station and a path up to the ground would be no more than 50-100k. Piss all compared to the 2.5million sports bar they are building. Plus it would probably get funded by the council as it gets cars and traffic off the road and will increase town centre footfall and revenue! No brainer A platform and path aren't the issue, that's the easy bit. Integrating the extra stop into the overall rail network or potentially adding routes and all the red tape/logistics that goes with it is what would be difficult...........
|
|
|
Post by Malcolm Clarke on Sept 1, 2022 11:21:09 GMT
I personally think the council has a much larger problem, the supporters council page states "This provides a platform for a select number of fans representing a wide cross section of the supporter base to voice the general viewpoint and make a significant contribution in helping to shape the way the Club moves forward." I have read the minutes of the last 5 meetings and key topics were - the sound system - lighting of the gordon banks statue - Matchday music - Info on subs on the big screen - Range of alcohol on sale None of which feel like they are contributing to the way the club moves forward in any meaningful way The one time the minutes mention anything strategic, when the council asked about the vision. The response was "The Club said that a range of scenarios have been considered and expressed a belief that having the right people at the Club is the most important factor." I'd expect more from Boris Johnson The supporters council for me in its current guise is great PR for the club, especially if a key voice is an employee of the club who works as a journalist for the local radio station covering the club. I personally think that the council should fulfil 2 roles 1 - To work with people like Anthony Emerson the supporter liaison officer. To collate requests (as seems to take up 90% of the current meetings from the minutes) from fans and work with him to prioritise and understand which ones can and should be funded by the club. 2 - To be a voice of the fans from a strategic perspective as stoke city makes it's big decisions. FFP, Stadium development, Ticket pricing, club appointments. Number 2 probably needs a formalised position on the board for someone in the supporters council (if the club want to do it properly also probably needs some sort of voting rights), and probably needs a person who the rest of the board will see as a peer and trust but also know is a real dyed in the wool stoke fan who represents the people in the Boothen and other parts of the stadium. I tried to find the mandates of the people who were elected but as I missed the whole process due to being unaware it was happening can't find anything. I think you have made some very pertinent points. If you haven't read it already you will be very interested to see what Tracey Crouch MP said about supporter engagement at Club level in Chapter 7 (pages 89 to 97) of her Fan led review of football (FLR) thefsa.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Football-Fan-led-Governance-Review.pdfThe Government is committed to implementing FLR and establishing a new Independent Regulator of Football to do so. A White Paper is due to be published in the autumn and we (FSA) have been working with the civil servants to make an input into that process. Of course, next week we will have a new Prime Minister, who will appoint the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, and the Minister of Sport, who will have the political responsibility for taking this agenda forward. At this stage we have no reason to believe that these changes will water down the commitment of the previous Prime Minister and incumbents of the other 2 posts to implementing FLR, but of course we will have to wait until they are up and running to test that.
|
|
|
Post by Pugsley on Sept 1, 2022 11:31:28 GMT
I suspect it would be cheaper to run a cable car to Stoke station a little station and a path up to the ground would be no more than 50-100k. Piss all compared to the 2.5million sports bar they are building. Plus it would probably get funded by the council as it gets cars and traffic off the road and will increase town centre footfall and revenue! No brainer Will it be made out of cardboard and the path from crisps? 50-100K
|
|
|
Post by banksy1art on Sept 1, 2022 11:52:25 GMT
a little station and a path up to the ground would be no more than 50-100k. Piss all compared to the 2.5million sports bar they are building. Plus it would probably get funded by the council as it gets cars and traffic off the road and will increase town centre footfall and revenue! No brainer A platform and path aren't the issue, that's the easy bit. Integrating the extra stop into the overall rail network or potentially adding routes and all the red tape/logistics that goes with it is what would be difficult........... surely trains running for about 40 minutes before and after kickoff on matchdays wouldn’t cause much of an impact on any other trains passing through stoke. They are rebuilding Meir station so there must be a way to figure it all out anyway, it’s just the laziness of our city. If the club want more fans in the ground then this is the way forward, especially for the future! I’ve stopped going to home games because I can’t afford to sit in traffic outside the ground all day
|
|
|
Post by prestwichpotter on Sept 1, 2022 11:59:32 GMT
A platform and path aren't the issue, that's the easy bit. Integrating the extra stop into the overall rail network or potentially adding routes and all the red tape/logistics that goes with it is what would be difficult........... surely trains running for about 40 minutes before and after kickoff on matchdays wouldn’t cause much of an impact on any other trains passing through stoke. They are rebuilding Meir station so there must be a way to figure it all out anyway, it’s just the laziness of our city. If the club want more fans in the ground then this is the way forward, especially for the future! I’ve stopped going to home games because I can’t afford to sit in traffic outside the ground all day Every extra stop means that the train isn't getting into its next destination until 2 minutes later, which could then impact on a number of other services at that station, the next station, the one after that and so on. I spend half my life at work arranging extra carriages, extra services etc. for freight trains to allow us to take vehicles off the road and it's a frustrating minefield at times especially when they're attached to existing lines that are already at or near maximum capacity..........
|
|
|
Post by swissstokie on Sept 1, 2022 12:03:32 GMT
I personally think the council has a much larger problem, the supporters council page states "This provides a platform for a select number of fans representing a wide cross section of the supporter base to voice the general viewpoint and make a significant contribution in helping to shape the way the Club moves forward." I have read the minutes of the last 5 meetings and key topics were - the sound system - lighting of the gordon banks statue - Matchday music - Info on subs on the big screen - Range of alcohol on sale None of which feel like they are contributing to the way the club moves forward in any meaningful way The one time the minutes mention anything strategic, when the council asked about the vision. The response was "The Club said that a range of scenarios have been considered and expressed a belief that having the right people at the Club is the most important factor." I'd expect more from Boris Johnson The supporters council for me in its current guise is great PR for the club, especially if a key voice is an employee of the club who works as a journalist for the local radio station covering the club. I personally think that the council should fulfil 2 roles 1 - To work with people like Anthony Emerson the supporter liaison officer. To collate requests (as seems to take up 90% of the current meetings from the minutes) from fans and work with him to prioritise and understand which ones can and should be funded by the club. 2 - To be a voice of the fans from a strategic perspective as stoke city makes it's big decisions. FFP, Stadium development, Ticket pricing, club appointments. Number 2 probably needs a formalised position on the board for someone in the supporters council (if the club want to do it properly also probably needs some sort of voting rights), and probably needs a person who the rest of the board will see as a peer and trust but also know is a real dyed in the wool stoke fan who represents the people in the Boothen and other parts of the stadium. I tried to find the mandates of the people who were elected but as I missed the whole process due to being unaware it was happening can't find anything. I think you have made some very pertinent points. If you haven't read it already you will be very interested to see what Tracey Crouch MP said about supporter engagement at Club level in Chapter 7 (pages 89 to 97) of her Fan led review of football (FLR) thefsa.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Football-Fan-led-Governance-Review.pdfThe Government is committed to implementing FLR and establishing a new Independent Regulator of Football to do so. A White Paper is due to be published in the autumn and we (FSA) have been working with the civil servants to make an input into that process. Of course, next week we will have a new Prime Minister, who will appoint the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, and the Minister of Sport, who will have the political responsibility for taking this agenda forward. At this stage we have no reason to believe that these changes will water down the commitment of the previous Prime Minister and incumbents of the other 2 posts to implementing FLR, but of course we will have to wait until they are up and running to test that. Thanks for this, I had scanned pieces of it but re-reading this section it is great that the review sees many of the problems apparent with our SC in other clubs around the country. I personally welcome a shadow board with a true access (with much needed NDA's in place) to the clubs strategy, but the word "consultation" as the report uses so often is a fine line between "this is what we are doing" to "this is our plan, does it make sense and what needs amendment?" With mutually agreed next steps and an understanding that supporters are not experienced directors of multi million/billion pound sports businesses....HOWEVER we represent the people in the stands, in front of the TV, in the club shop etc etc
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 1, 2022 17:28:09 GMT
She should absolutely resign. I don’t know how it’s even a debate 😂😂
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 1, 2022 17:30:51 GMT
You obviously didn’t listen to yesterday’s press conference very closely then As it happens I did listen and concentrated but didn’t know who the initial questioners were, let alone that any of them are on the Supporters Council. And why the hell would you 😂 The same goes for their occupation. I would have hoped that such obvious conflicts of interest would be seen as such an easy matter to sort. Ie no club employee should be a supporter member on the council. It’s a joke that any are.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 1, 2022 17:33:52 GMT
It never is personal is it. Strange how you criticize one individual, and, when anyone questions it you come out all guns blazing with the total denial of “Gender based discrimination”. Pull the other one. Still bitter are we, that Angela has been the Chair of the Supporters Council, and done a far better job than you ever did or could. Something else for you to strenuously deny. For the record, Angela is honest, totally trustworthy, and someone I would rather have representing me as a fan on the Supporters Council than someone like you. I await the shock, horror and denials that will no doubt come from the OP, but as I said above, “Pull the other one”. 😂😂😂this clearly is personal. How funny.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2022 17:45:07 GMT
It's been a farce for years.
I'd love to know how many issues that have been addressed have actually been sorted.
It's the same old answers at every meeting: "The club will monitor this" "The club will take this into consideration" "The club have welcomed the feedback and will look to improve"
|
|
|
Post by crouchpotato1 on Sept 1, 2022 18:00:51 GMT
It's been a farce for years. I'd love to know how many issues that have been addressed have actually been sorted. It's the same old answers at every meeting: "The club will monitor this" "The club will take this into consideration" "The club have welcomed the feedback and will look to improve" Fancy seeing you on this thread Charles🙄
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 2, 2022 7:10:39 GMT
So who are the other people that work for the club then?
It’s crazy how it’s been allowed to happen.
|
|
|
Post by Malcolm Clarke on Sept 2, 2022 10:29:35 GMT
So who are the other people that work for the club then? It’s crazy how it’s been allowed to happen. There is nothing in either the Supporters Council rules or the Council's Memorandum of Understanding with the Club to prevent it, which I personally think is an omission. To her credit, Angela declared her new role in her election statement. I don't recall ever seeing such a declaration from another candidate but I could be wrong about that. And there is no published register of members' interests or relevant roles. It's all about good governance and transparency.
|
|
|
Post by bunnyscfc on Sept 2, 2022 11:28:06 GMT
As Malcolm said, Angela declared her role in her election statement and those who voted will have seen that. I know that others before her on there have also worked in some format for the club, too.
It's a real shame for someone who was open, has really held the club to account over the years, and always put the club first.
|
|
|
Post by flea79 on Sept 2, 2022 12:16:52 GMT
It's been a farce for years. I'd love to know how many issues that have been addressed have actually been sorted. It's the same old answers at every meeting: "The club will monitor this" "The club will take this into consideration" "The club have welcomed the feedback and will look to improve" i have approached the supporters council for help with a ticketing issue a while back when the new corner was built, my good lady wife was working in care and had ordered season tickets in the new disabled section at the top and it was not ready but no communication or help was given, I emailed the council for some help requesting a bit of clarity and Ange promptly replied and put me in touch with the relevant person at the club who sorted it. its not all about what is discussed in the minutes often its little bits of help and the council members acting as a go between for fans and the club and it works, im sure others have used the council in this way. its similar to Malcolm and his work within the FSA, he or the FSA have no real power in a club or the game (apologies Malcolm) but they are listened too and respected and act in the best way possible to help fellow fans enjoy games and deal with unfortunate events that can occur! long may these volunteers and well meaning folk exist!
|
|
|
Post by kustokie on Sept 2, 2022 13:29:13 GMT
Setting aside the petty politics and accusations of misogyny, this appears to be about potential conflicts of interest. Conflicts of interest are a part of life, some are inconsequential, some are wrong and some are illegal. Arguably the most egregious legal conflict of interest lies with the members of the US Congress who are not subject to insider trading rules, which means elected officials can trade stocks that will be affected by legislation that is not yet in the public domain. Whilst the present Supporters Council issue is a storm in a tea cup by comparison, the analogy is valid. One might not like it but if it’s not against the rules there’s nothing wrong with it. If you don’t like the system work to change it, but don’t mount personal attacks (and yes these attacks are personal) on those who have done nothing wrong. The rules do not exclude club employees from standing for election. Moreover, Angela Smith declared any potential conflict as General Manager of the Women's Team in her Election Statement. This did not deter those who voted for her and she won in a landslide. Some might see it as an advantage.
President Johnson famously said he would rather have his opponents inside the tent pissing out than the other way around. I leave it to the reader to decide which side of the tent the protagonists in this issue are standing. That said, I would ask Malcom Clarke if he so concerned about this,matter, why he didn’t he raise it before the election or more importantly why he didn’t stand for election in the first place?
I spent 15 years in academia where they said the politics were viscous because the stakes were so low. This issue seems to fall into the same category. Whilst the Oatcake is a good forum for discussion it is no place for personal attacks by those who can hide behind a veil of anonymity. If you have a problem, write to the club, start a petition or go to the council meetings, but don’t attack people who have done nothing wrong.
|
|
|
Post by kidcrewbob on Sept 2, 2022 13:40:11 GMT
Yup, amazing how Brighton and other clubs have managed to make it feasible. Typical Stoke-on-Trent short-sightedness. I suspect it would be cheaper to run a cable car to Stoke station Monorail - that's what we need.....
|
|
|
Post by kidcrewbob on Sept 2, 2022 13:43:08 GMT
a little station and a path up to the ground would be no more than 50-100k. Piss all compared to the 2.5million sports bar they are building. Plus it would probably get funded by the council as it gets cars and traffic off the road and will increase town centre footfall and revenue! No brainer Will it be made out of cardboard and the path from crisps? 50-100K Cost me 50k.for a kitchen extention!!
|
|
|
Post by flea79 on Sept 2, 2022 14:10:38 GMT
I suspect it would be cheaper to run a cable car to Stoke station Monorail - that's what we need..... monorail monorail monorail but stanley matthews way is still cracked and broken, be quiet Denise the mob has spoken!
|
|