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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 31, 2022 8:18:02 GMT
We need to improve at both ends. We need some creative players who can pitch in with goals, a good defensive midfield player, some central defenders and a goalkeeper. I would say as it stands our only defensive hope for next season is a 40-year-old and a player who has not kicked a ball for over a year and I can't help feeling the club/manager are happy with that and pinning their hopes on it. A test of how good you are defensively as a team is how well you protect a lead and no team was worse than us in all 4 divisions in that department, for me that is a worrying stat and as things stand we look like a club who are not moving forward possibly the opposite. I do think the club, as a whole, is suffering from inertia, lack of direction and there seems to be no plan. We were told at the end of the previous season we would be going down the stats route in terms of bringing players in, which included bringing players in of optimal age and also told there would be very little movement. We got a whole raft of players moving out and coming in and unless 40 is the new optimal age then I am not sure what has gone on there. A couple of years ago we sacked a man for losing only his 2nd game in a 14 match run, roll on a few years and we seem content with a man that has lost 10 home games out of his last 17 and who possibly has some health issues, add to that no balance to the squad and oh I could go on but will leave it there. The whole club needs a shakeup from top to bottom, as a fan I have lost the will to be honest and see no real hope/plan going forward, just a club bundling along with a hit n hope approach and also very little hope of us seeing any exciting football for the foreseeable future. Interesting spin on a man who spent £50m and won only four games in that same 14 game run...
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on May 31, 2022 8:27:00 GMT
We need to improve at both ends. We need some creative players who can pitch in with goals, a good defensive midfield player, some central defenders and a goalkeeper. I would say as it stands our only defensive hope for next season is a 40-year-old and a player who has not kicked a ball for over a year and I can't help feeling the club/manager are happy with that and pinning their hopes on it. A test of how good you are defensively as a team is how well you protect a lead and no team was worse than us in all 4 divisions in that department, for me that is a worrying stat and as things stand we look like a club who are not moving forward possibly the opposite. I do think the club, as a whole, is suffering from inertia, lack of direction and there seems to be no plan. We were told at the end of the previous season we would be going down the stats route in terms of bringing players in, which included bringing players in of optimal age and also told there would be very little movement. We got a whole raft of players moving out and coming in and unless 40 is the new optimal age then I am not sure what has gone on there. A couple of years ago we sacked a man for losing only his 2nd game in a 14 match run, roll on a few years and we seem content with a man that has lost 10 home games out of his last 17 and who possibly has some health issues, add to that no balance to the squad and oh I could go on but will leave it there. The whole club needs a shakeup from top to bottom, as a fan I have lost the will to be honest and see no real hope/plan going forward, just a club bundling along with a hit n hope approach and also very little hope of us seeing any exciting football for the foreseeable future. Interesting spin on a man who spent £50m and won only four games in that same 14 game run... Given the type of manager we almost always employ you’ve got to think that they prioritise not losing over winning. Just an observation not a defense of Rowett. I think there is a negative culture problem at the club from the top down.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 31, 2022 8:32:40 GMT
Interesting spin on a man who spent £50m and won only four games in that same 14 game run... Given the type of manager we almost always employ you’ve got to think that they prioritise not losing over winning. Just an observation not a defense of Rowett. I think there is a negative culture problem at the club from the top down. When he brought Pulis back, Coates opined that 'it took a certain kind of football to get out of this league'. It wasn't necessarily entirely true then (it did get us out of the league, which was great, but it wasn't the only method that worked, as others showed). It definitely isn't true now and you can count on a webbed foot the number of teams who got promoted playing safety-first, hoofy stuff in recent times. Suspect Coates' Sr's view hasn't changed, even if Coates Jr might have slightly different ideas.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on May 31, 2022 8:44:47 GMT
Given the type of manager we almost always employ you’ve got to think that they prioritise not losing over winning. Just an observation not a defense of Rowett. I think there is a negative culture problem at the club from the top down. When he brought Pulis back, Coates opined that 'it took a certain kind of football to get out of this league'. It wasn't necessarily entirely true then (it did get us out of the league, which was great, but it wasn't the only method that worked, as others showed). It definitely isn't true now and you can count on a webbed foot the number of teams who got promoted playing safety-first, hoofy stuff in recent times. Suspect Coates' Sr's view hasn't changed, even if Coates Jr might have slightly different ideas. Typical Pulis football didn’t get you promoted even then. Pulis normally produces low scoring sides, that season we were in the top 3 for goals scored I think despite his head wobble and return to default after Southampton/Scunthorpe at home in a week. Coates Snr definitely has the idea that dull, dour, low scoring football is a recipie for success, as an idea its like him decades out of date.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on May 31, 2022 8:59:10 GMT
When he brought Pulis back, Coates opined that 'it took a certain kind of football to get out of this league'. It wasn't necessarily entirely true then (it did get us out of the league, which was great, but it wasn't the only method that worked, as others showed). It definitely isn't true now and you can count on a webbed foot the number of teams who got promoted playing safety-first, hoofy stuff in recent times. Suspect Coates' Sr's view hasn't changed, even if Coates Jr might have slightly different ideas. Typical Pulis football didn’t get you promoted even then. Pulis normally produces low scoring sides, that season we were in the top 3 for goals scored I think despite his head wobble and return to default after Southampton/Scunthorpe at home in a week. Coates Snr definitely has the idea that dull, dour, low scoring football is a recipie for success, as an idea its like him decades out of date. There’s only one job left he’s qualified for president of the USA.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2022 9:37:30 GMT
I would say a new manager but that clearly isn't happening. So in order of priority:
A new goalkeeper
2 New fullbacks who can defend first and foremost
A physical, athletic CM
A target man
I think we should have enough options at CB unless he insists on playing 3/5 at the back, in which case we need a left side CB.
If we are to go 433 or similar another wide forward option.
The most important thing comes from the manager though which is to play on the front foot with energy and purpose.
If we don't come out firing from the off he's a goner and he knows it. The crowd will turn quickly unless they see some immediate improvements. The unrest has been there for a while simmering just below the surface. We've not seen a full scale backlash yet at games but you can feel it coming.
The board will have no choice but to get rid.
Over to you Michael.
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Post by fazza90 on May 31, 2022 9:56:38 GMT
All things being equal to this season if we don't get our best defender, striker & most creative players injured for the majority of the season we should improve anyway. If we tighten up defensively - particularly when we're ahead then we'll also also bump ourselves up from the 14th.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on May 31, 2022 10:07:55 GMT
All things being equal to this season if we don't get our best defender, striker & most creative players injured for the majority of the season we should improve anyway. If we tighten up defensively - particularly when we're ahead then we'll also also bump ourselves up from the 14th. Great another with the Stoke disease of wanting to tighten up defensively when in reality we need to score more goals. Unless you can recruit significantly better defenders the only way to tighten up defensively is to take away from the offensive threat of your team. It's a recipie for more of the same.
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Post by jokker on May 31, 2022 10:29:57 GMT
Play eleven men week in week out, and keep no more than seven in reserve, if changes must be made, and over 46 games some will. If more players are needed look to the academy. That’s what nearly relegated Leeds this season. That's what we're looking at next season: to avoid getting relegated.
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Post by scfc75 on May 31, 2022 10:43:08 GMT
That’s what nearly relegated Leeds this season. That's what we're looking at next season: to avoid getting relegated. It’s great that we have a target to aim for
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Post by jokker on May 31, 2022 10:52:50 GMT
That's what we're looking at next season: to avoid getting relegated. It’s great that we have a target to aim for If we don't aim for that, but take our position of 14th for granted, we're already down.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on May 31, 2022 11:10:26 GMT
1 Get an experienced, confident goalkeeper the defence can trust. 2 Decide on a formation, build a squad to play it and stick with it. Doesn't really matter what it is. 3 Stop making stupid mistakes at the back 4 Learn to win ugly when it isn't going your way, 5 Be more decisive with substitutions and do it earlier. 6 Don't play players recovering from injury when they aren't ready - regardless of who they are. 7 Get lucky with injuries and don't make so many changes at Xmas 8 Be utterly unsentimental about playing youngsters. Only play them when they are ready and are the best option available. 9 Get behind the manager and the team, especially when there is a wobble and they need the support most. Point 4 is shit, most of our wins were ugly last season, it’s what we already do. Needs to be replaced with learn to win handsomely by wider margins scoring more goals. You can setup to win by a wide margin, batter the opposition and still lose. The teams that go up know how to win ugly. We dominated possession in a number of games and lost because we couldn't do it. Whether you set up expansively and leave yourself to a good counter attacking side, play defensively and not take your chances, play patient possession football and get stifled by a well organised side (which is what we tried to do and just didn't do it well enough at times) you still need to learn how to win ugly. Point 4 is perfectly valid regardless of how you set up to play.
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Post by lordb on May 31, 2022 11:12:20 GMT
We need to improve at both ends. We need some creative players who can pitch in with goals, a good defensive midfield player, some central defenders and a goalkeeper. I would say as it stands our only defensive hope for next season is a 40-year-old and a player who has not kicked a ball for over a year and I can't help feeling the club/manager are happy with that and pinning their hopes on it. A test of how good you are defensively as a team is how well you protect a lead and no team was worse than us in all 4 divisions in that department, for me that is a worrying stat and as things stand we look like a club who are not moving forward possibly the opposite. I do think the club, as a whole, is suffering from inertia, lack of direction and there seems to be no plan. We were told at the end of the previous season we would be going down the stats route in terms of bringing players in, which included bringing players in of optimal age and also told there would be very little movement. We got a whole raft of players moving out and coming in and unless 40 is the new optimal age then I am not sure what has gone on there. A couple of years ago we sacked a man for losing only his 2nd game in a 14 match run, roll on a few years and we seem content with a man that has lost 10 home games out of his last 17 and who possibly has some health issues, add to that no balance to the squad and oh I could go on but will leave it there. The whole club needs a shakeup from top to bottom, as a fan I have lost the will to be honest and see no real hope/plan going forward, just a club bundling along with a hit n hope approach and also very little hope of us seeing any exciting football for the foreseeable future. 'a player who has not kicked a ball for over a year' ? who is that?
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Post by lordb on May 31, 2022 11:14:06 GMT
I would say a new manager but that clearly isn't happening. So in order of priority: A new goalkeeper 2 New fullbacks who can defend first and foremost A physical, athletic CM A target man I think we should have enough options at CB unless he insists on playing 3/5 at the back, in which case we need a left side CB. If we are to go 433 or similar another wide forward option. The most important thing comes from the manager though which is to play on the front foot with energy and purpose. If we don't come out firing from the off he's a goner and he knows it. The crowd will turn quickly unless they see some immediate improvements. The unrest has been there for a while simmering just below the surface. We've not seen a full scale backlash yet at games but you can feel it coming. The board will have no choice but to get rid. Over to you Michael. 'he most important thing comes from the manager though which is to play on the front foot with energy and purpose.' absolutely this the rest are all secondary
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on May 31, 2022 11:25:36 GMT
Point 4 is shit, most of our wins were ugly last season, it’s what we already do. Needs to be replaced with learn to win handsomely by wider margins scoring more goals. You can setup to win by a wide margin, batter the opposition and still lose. The teams that go up know how to win ugly. We dominated possession in a number of games and lost because we couldn't do it. Whether you set up expansively and leave yourself to a good counter attacking side, play defensively and not take your chances, play patient possession football and get stifled by a well organised side (which is what we tried to do and just didn't do it well enough at times) you still need to learn how to win ugly. Point 4 is perfectly valid regardless of how you set up to play. That's correct and when you do you have to take it on the chin, it's a game of football sometimes you lose. We played too patient possession football and were fairly well organised, frequently being undone by individual errors. The only ways to counter that is to recruit better defenders or organisationally take away from the offensive side of your play which has been our real problem for years.
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Post by fazza90 on May 31, 2022 13:39:13 GMT
All things being equal to this season if we don't get our best defender, striker & most creative players injured for the majority of the season we should improve anyway. If we tighten up defensively - particularly when we're ahead then we'll also also bump ourselves up from the 14th. Great another with the Stoke disease of wanting to tighten up defensively when in reality we need to score more goals. Unless you can recruit significantly better defenders the only way to tighten up defensively is to take away from the offensive threat of your team. It's a recipie for more of the same. The 'disease' of tightening up defensively isn't just putting more men behind the ball, it could be a number of things but to me with our current team it'd be to decrease the stupid defensive errors, know when to play out from the back & when to go long, increase communication across the back four & keeper & defensive awareness of when to go across & cover, when to stay in position rather than just putting more men behind the ball & reducing our offensive threat. We dropped a ridiculous amount of points last season by conceding when we were ahead; fix that & that's a quick easy win & more points.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on May 31, 2022 13:52:49 GMT
Great another with the Stoke disease of wanting to tighten up defensively when in reality we need to score more goals. Unless you can recruit significantly better defenders the only way to tighten up defensively is to take away from the offensive threat of your team. It's a recipie for more of the same. The 'disease' of tightening up defensively isn't just putting more men behind the ball, it could be a number of things but to me with our current team it'd be to decrease the stupid defensive errors, know when to play out from the back & when to go long, increase communication across the back four & keeper & defensive awareness of when to go across & cover, when to stay in position rather than just putting more men behind the ball & reducing our offensive threat. We dropped a ridiculous amount of points last season by conceding when we were ahead; fix that & that's a quick easy win & more points. Right so you want to tighten up defensively not by organisation or recruiting significantly better defenders but you want the defenders you have got to make significantly less individual errors. Good luck with that you obviously know someone who turns sows ears into silk purses, I don't know who they are. We don't concede an alarming amount of goals. We can't afford a better class of defender less prone to individual error. We're not particularly disorganised. We definitely don't score enough goals.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on May 31, 2022 14:01:05 GMT
You can setup to win by a wide margin, batter the opposition and still lose. The teams that go up know how to win ugly. We dominated possession in a number of games and lost because we couldn't do it. Whether you set up expansively and leave yourself to a good counter attacking side, play defensively and not take your chances, play patient possession football and get stifled by a well organised side (which is what we tried to do and just didn't do it well enough at times) you still need to learn how to win ugly. Point 4 is perfectly valid regardless of how you set up to play. That's correct and when you do you have to take it on the chin, it's a game of football sometimes you lose. We played too patient possession football and were fairly well organised, frequently being undone by individual errors. The only ways to counter that is to recruit better defenders or organisationally take away from the offensive side of your play which has been our real problem for years. The problem for me is that our defence was too inexperienced and therefore liable to make mistakes coupled with a goalkeeper that didn't inspire confidence. I agree we shouldn't try to solve the problem by setting up more defensively. Had our midfield been overrun there is an arguement to do that but that simply wasn't what was happening. Equally I really don't think being gung ho like you seem to suggest is the answer - the teams in this division are wiley enough to pick you off. You are not getting my point about winning ugly - if you go out to attack you shouldn't just take it on the chin when you get caught out. A team that wins ugly wins ugly and doesn't just take it on the chin no matter how they set up and an all out attacking side without that attitude is not going to get promoted - it might look pretty but it's the ugly teams that win leagues.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on May 31, 2022 14:15:49 GMT
That's correct and when you do you have to take it on the chin, it's a game of football sometimes you lose. We played too patient possession football and were fairly well organised, frequently being undone by individual errors. The only ways to counter that is to recruit better defenders or organisationally take away from the offensive side of your play which has been our real problem for years. The problem for me is that our defence was too inexperienced and therefore liable to make mistakes coupled with a goalkeeper that didn't inspire confidence. I agree we shouldn't try to solve the problem by setting up more defensively. Had our midfield been overrun there is an arguement to do that but that simply wasn't what was happening. Equally I really don't think being gung ho like you seem to suggest is the answer - the teams in this division are wiley enough to pick you off. You are not getting my point about winning ugly - if you go out to attack you shouldn't just take it on the chin when you get caught out. A team that wins ugly wins ugly and doesn't just take it on the chin no matter how they set up and an all out attacking side without that attitude is not going to get promoted - it might look pretty but it's the ugly teams that win leagues. Our most effective defence last season was our least experienced Wilmot, Souttar, Ostgaard. Adding experience didn't significantly improve us defensively but saw us struggle to score goals. Yeah OK Fulham were really ugly. Keep taking the tablets.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2022 14:17:53 GMT
"it's the ugly teams that win leagues"
What like Man City & Fulham?
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on May 31, 2022 14:21:02 GMT
"it's the ugly teams that win leagues" What like Man City & Fulham? You couldn't fucking make it up could you. I think he watches re runs of George Grahams Arsenal on MotD. I think it might be Coatesy.
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Post by dirtclod on May 31, 2022 14:22:52 GMT
Win more of those 1-goal difference games.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on May 31, 2022 14:24:50 GMT
Win more of those 1-goal difference games. Edging shitty games does little to boost player confidence or fans feelgood factor. It's just not a recipie for success.
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Post by dirtclod on May 31, 2022 14:31:34 GMT
Win more of those 1-goal difference games. Edging shitty games does little to boost player confidence or fans feelgood factor. It's just not a recipie for success. We would have finished quite higher than 14th if we'd managed to win those games. Of course expecting to win ALL of them isn't realistic but ffs we dropped a lot of points by fine margins. Beginning to think that the secret to getting out of this league might just be edging shitty games. But would agree with you that it isn't the recipe for success that I'd rather see.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on May 31, 2022 14:37:02 GMT
Edging shitty games does little to boost player confidence or fans feelgood factor. It's just not a recipie for success. We would have finished quite higher than 14th if we'd managed to win those games. Of course expecting to win ALL of them isn't realistic but ffs we dropped a lot of points by fine margins. Beginning to think that the secret to getting out of this league might just be edging shitty games. But would agree with you that it isn't the recipe for success that I'd rather see. Teams that get out of this league generally win a fair few games by wide margins obviously not on a weekly basis. Give me a clue, what sort of teams are we talking that have won promotion without winning some games convincingly and I'll have a look at their results but I'm thinking it doesn't happen particularly for automatic.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 31, 2022 14:42:30 GMT
I think most decent teams will have the capacity to grind out wins now and then when they need to - that's football and more a by-product of guts and mentality than anything else.
It shouldn't be your Plan A intention to grimly grind out results though, if you've got aspirations of achieving anything.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on May 31, 2022 14:46:44 GMT
I think most decent teams will have the capacity to grind out wins now and then when they need to - that's football and more a by-product of guts and mentality than anything else. It shouldn't be your Plan A intention to grimly grind out results though, if you've got aspirations of achieving anything. But we did quite a bit of that last season yet we've got posters claiming that's what was missing. Yet we didn't win a game by more than 2 goals did we?
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Post by dirtclod on May 31, 2022 14:51:06 GMT
We would have finished quite higher than 14th if we'd managed to win those games. Of course expecting to win ALL of them isn't realistic but ffs we dropped a lot of points by fine margins. Beginning to think that the secret to getting out of this league might just be edging shitty games. But would agree with you that it isn't the recipe for success that I'd rather see. Teams that get out of this league generally win a fair few games by wide margins obviously not on a weekly basis. Give me a clue, what sort of teams are we talking that have won promotion without winning some games convincingly and I'll have a look at their results but I'm thinking it doesn't happen particularly for automatic. Touche. You said automatic. I think you're right about getting into the top 2, you've got to have a clear separation from the other teams, similar to Fulham this year. I don't think we'd have gotten into the top two even if we'd have won those games, only that we'd have finished higher than 14th. What would you say if we had? About 7th to 9th? That's what I'm thinking. So maybe edging shitty games might just get you into the bottom end of the playoffs at best. I get your point now. Edit: Just like you pointed out on the other thread, I think I confused winning the league with just getting into the playoffs.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 31, 2022 14:52:09 GMT
I think most decent teams will have the capacity to grind out wins now and then when they need to - that's football and more a by-product of guts and mentality than anything else. It shouldn't be your Plan A intention to grimly grind out results though, if you've got aspirations of achieving anything. But we did quite a bit of that last season yet we've got posters claiming that's what was missing. Yet we didn't win a game by more than 2 goals did we? Yep, we clearly set out to do that and failed miserably, if his changes were anything to go by.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on May 31, 2022 14:56:35 GMT
Teams that get out of this league generally win a fair few games by wide margins obviously not on a weekly basis. Give me a clue, what sort of teams are we talking that have won promotion without winning some games convincingly and I'll have a look at their results but I'm thinking it doesn't happen particularly for automatic. Touche. You said automatic. I think you're right about getting into the top 2, you've got to have a clear separation from the other teams, similar to Fulham this year. I don't think we'd have gotten into the top two even if we'd have won those games, only that we'd have finished higher than 14th. What would you say if we had? About 7th to 9th? That's what I'm thinking. So maybe edging shitty games might just get you into the bottom end of the playoffs at best. I get your point now. Yeah that is not an ambitious enough aspiration for me. It's the sort of thing you settle for reluctantly when the original target becomes unobtainable. Maybe I'm in a small minority who'd find the play offs quite underwhelming.
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