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Post by jokker on Mar 7, 2022 14:57:55 GMT
We have no idea if John Coates is capable of running a football club. It requires a skillset that isn't just throwing money at it. It's great they're fans and 'care' for the club but so do many tens of thousands. They're the custodians of it and unfortunately have made a very poor job of running it for the past six years. It's not for me to speak up for Coates, but we haven't been relegated six years running and we haven't been hit with FFP...yet. I'm not saying the last four years have been fun, but "a very poor job" is not adequate. Results notwithstanding there is probably no other board which have done as much as them for the benefit of the town, the club, and the supporters. It just hasn't been enough, it never really is with this crowd. John Ritchie said it right in the late 60s, 'maybe Stoke's fans don't deserve their club.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2022 14:58:36 GMT
We have no idea if John Coates is capable of running a football club. It requires a skillset that isn't just throwing money at it. It's great they're fans and 'care' for the club but so do many tens of thousands. They're the custodians of it and unfortunately have made a very poor job of running it for the past six years. Well we are starting to get an idea now and let’s be honest, going the games at home are boring.
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Post by LGH87 on Mar 7, 2022 15:00:01 GMT
Who gives a fuck if they're local, they're completely arrogant and naive. They run this club like it's 2008 and they don't see anything wrong with that. They threw away the greatest position this club has ever and will ever be in, just look at the likes of Wolves, Southampton, Leicester, Brighton etc we're a fucking million miles away from them right now and we had practically an unlimited budget. We can keep changing the manager, nothing will change long term, you only have to see Rowett & Jones sitting in the top 10 with smaller clubs, with a fraction of our budget to realise that the problems run a lot fucking deeper than the whichever manager may be in charge at any one time. Naive perhaps, arrogant is too far for me. The best interests of the town and club are at their heart, I've no doubt of that and it's why I want things to change for the better under them. It's am emotional topic so I do get where you're coming from, but they have provided me with some of the best memories and days of my entire life. They ran the club pretty well at one point, so although it's painfully slow I don't see how we can rule out them finally adapting and doing so once again in the modern era. Who do you think would take us on? SOT has a lower population than Derby who have one club. We have Port Vale, Newcastle Town and Crewe right next door. We're never going to be commercially that viable as paired with a relatively small pool of fans, SOT sadly isn't very fashionable or wealthy thanks to the Tory party. Look at the state of Derby, Sunderland, Ashley's Newcastle, Leeds for bloody ages... They have been arrogant though, they believed all they had to do was chuck money at it and everything would be ok. Let's not forget that they were also in charge for some of our darkest days, albeit without the finances they have now. However surely those memories should be a catalyst for trying to improve on where we find ourselves now? I do fully get your point about potential buyers but at the same time we do have a 32k seater stadium, which would be filled week in week out with a half decent position in the Prem. You could've argued, why would anyone invest in Wolves with Brum, West Brom and Villa all on their doorstep. In an idea world, the board would realise they can't do this alone anymore and need to restructure the footballing side of things but I just don't think they will. John Coates strikes me as the kind of idiot who absolutely relishes his position, he probably uses it in an attempt to pull women.
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Post by jokker on Mar 7, 2022 15:02:51 GMT
A DOF would be another mouth to feed and we're not in a position to do that at the moment with FFP. And what's to say that we don't appoint the wrong DOF? It would also require a special bond between the manager and the DOF. Could somebody tell me how many clubs with a DOF are doing better than ones without them? I can name you one where it hasn't made any significant difference, and it's only just up the road. OS. Up the same road it's made a hell of a difference for the noisy neighbour.
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Post by skip on Mar 7, 2022 15:17:03 GMT
There are two ways of looking at football. Either it is as simple as getting eleven players who know their specific roles, work for one another, think as a team and take individual responsibility, or, it is a game whereby slight tweaks to systems and formations can make or break a season, the reputation of the manager, the players or both. Either tactics are overrated or tactics are everything.
Similarly, there are two ways to approach running a businesses. Either it is as simple as providing a service or product that people want, with the right people in place, or it involves a level of nuance, scrutiny and iterative development, where slight tweaks to the operational structure can have enormous impact on the short, medium and long term success of the company. New ways to do old things and old ways to do new things.
I strongly suspect that the current 'system' or business model at Stoke City is now so contrived, so misunderstood, that its owners (also its main operative managers) can't find their way out of the haze.
What Stoke City FC need most of all is an independent strategic business advisor to undertake a full dissection of how Stoke City operates; on the field of play, commercial, and operationally. And I suspect this is not about to happen. We will therefore either have to become accustomed to mid table Championship win some lose some for years to come, or, we achieve promotion by complete fluke. Whoever eventually comes in to manage the first team will either take us up or they won't, but it won't be down to those in charge of Stoke City being any more wiser about what makes a successful sporting model in the 2020s or beyond.
Will Stoke City seek to learn anything from clubs that have current or recent success in the Premiership? Have they got the humility and nous to learn from Brighton or Leicester, to name but two. I doubt it even crosses their minds to do so.
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Post by TrentValePotter96 on Mar 7, 2022 15:18:02 GMT
We have no idea if John Coates is capable of running a football club. It requires a skillset that isn't just throwing money at it. It's great they're fans and 'care' for the club but so do many tens of thousands. They're the custodians of it and unfortunately have made a very poor job of running it for the past six years. It's not for me to speak up for Coates, but we haven't been relegated six years running and we haven't been hit with FFP...yet. I'm not saying the last four years have been fun, but "a very poor job" is not adequate. Results notwithstanding there is probably no other board which have done as much as them for the benefit of the town, the club, and the supporters. It just hasn't been enough, it never really is with this crowd. John Ritchie said it right in the late 60s, 'maybe Stoke's fans don't deserve their club. Not being relegated to League One doesn't mean they've not done a bad job. Had that happened there should have been protests. We've thrown away a great position (which they helped towards) for the mid table championship mediocrity that even the skint icelandics gave us. If we are hit with FFP it would be their fault, they should have been fully aware of this since relegation. Its their job. Its just bizarre to see such sentiment given to people who have failed. Frozen season tickets and away travel are admirable, nobody denies it but if that's the best we can aim for them maybe League One football is inevitable.
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Post by march4 on Mar 7, 2022 15:19:34 GMT
The Coates family are the best thing that has ever happened to our club.
Without them, we would have spent time in the 4th Division and not the Prem.
The Icelanders were keen but in the end seemed naïve and we were in difficult position when they left. Who on Earth would have bought us at that juncture. Certainly not a multi-billionaire Stoke City fanatic who was prepared to chuck money at the club.
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Post by skip on Mar 7, 2022 15:24:21 GMT
The Coates family are the best thing that has ever happened to our club. Without them, we would have spent time in the 4th Division and not the Prem. The Icelanders were keen but in the end seemed naïve and we were in difficult position when they left. Who on Earth would have bought us at that juncture. Certainly not a multi-billionaire Stoke City fanatic who was prepared to chuck money at the club. Coates' Golden Share made sure no one else had a chance to buy Stoke from the Icelandic Consortium. His eventual return was never in doubt. And let us not forget, he sold Stoke to them in the first place because between him and Humphreys and Moxey, the club was spiralling towards the lower leagues. For good.
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Post by LGH87 on Mar 7, 2022 15:25:08 GMT
The Coates family are the best thing that has ever happened to our club. Without them, we would have spent time in the 4th Division and not the Prem. The Icelanders were keen but in the end seemed naïve and we were in difficult position when they left. Who on Earth would have bought us at that juncture. Certainly not a multi-billionaire Stoke City fanatic who was prepared to chuck money at the club. It also doesn't absolve them of criticism March and for the last six years, they have failed the club & the fans, greatly.
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Post by dirtclod on Mar 7, 2022 15:35:24 GMT
Whatever you call the person, SOMEBODY with a football background needs to help JC. The "root & branch" overhaul many of us want to see has to start there. We've had multiple managers come through here and 2 of the most recent ones' clubs are higher than ours in the table despite us having better players than both Luton & Millwall. (In general)
I too would love to keep the Coates family as owners, but in a position where they don't have to make so many of the decisions on recruitment for specific systems of play. They should be managing how MUCH is available for the deals. They've put up the money and we've repeatedly gone out and grabbed players who don't fit the system of play. Players we have no idea what to do with once they are here. Obviously some of that is a manager having nobody ELSE around to question "Wait a minute, how does THIS guy fit what you're trying to do?"
It's been manager after manager here with no sustained success and I think this is the "cancer" or reason that needs fixed.
Edit: UNLESS. We find a manager that possesses all of these abilities within himself. Those are probably rare because many clubs DO support their managers with analysis, recommendations, etc. from an additional "head" to help decide who comes in and who goes. Hell if you have to, reduce some of the assistant coaching staff to make room for this person's salary, because I'm seeing very little obvious impact from them. We still can't manage an effective throw-in, players are not in the right positions, lack fundamental skills, they appear to lack conditioning as compared to other teams as well.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2022 15:42:17 GMT
Two relevant facts
1) the owners have lots of money And 2) they have spent it unwisely
Worse, despite doing the opposite in their own business ( online gambling) they have encouraged a culture of apathy at stoke city and ensured that mediocrity is richly rewarded .
In a culture of apathy,in an environment where mediocrity is richly rewarded , things are probably going to end badly regardless of who you put in charge.
We need owners and directors more attuned to running a football club in 2022 than the coates family .
Their wealth is irrelevant . Derby have won more points on the pitch than us this season and they don't have any wealth to speak off , they are skint .
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Post by skip on Mar 7, 2022 15:56:55 GMT
If Stoke City was profit motivated - like its parent company - it would not be run like it is. Even if it being used as window dressing for a multi million pound betting company, in an industry increasingly coming up against the same criticism levelled at alcoholic drinks companies and especially the tobacco industry, it needs to be in much better shape than it is.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2022 15:58:47 GMT
Naive perhaps, arrogant is too far for me. The best interests of the town and club are at their heart, I've no doubt of that and it's why I want things to change for the better under them. It's am emotional topic so I do get where you're coming from, but they have provided me with some of the best memories and days of my entire life. They ran the club pretty well at one point, so although it's painfully slow I don't see how we can rule out them finally adapting and doing so once again in the modern era. Who do you think would take us on? SOT has a lower population than Derby who have one club. We have Port Vale, Newcastle Town and Crewe right next door. We're never going to be commercially that viable as paired with a relatively small pool of fans, SOT sadly isn't very fashionable or wealthy thanks to the Tory party. Look at the state of Derby, Sunderland, Ashley's Newcastle, Leeds for bloody ages... They have been arrogant though, they believed all they had to do was chuck money at it and everything would be ok. Let's not forget that they were also in charge for some of our darkest days, albeit without the finances they have now. However surely those memories should be a catalyst for trying to improve on where we find ourselves now? I do fully get your point about potential buyers but at the same time we do have a 32k seater stadium, which would be filled week in week out with a half decent position in the Prem. You could've argued, why would anyone invest in Wolves with Brum, West Brom and Villa all on their doorstep. In an idea world, the board would realise they can't do this alone anymore and need to restructure the footballing side of things but I just don't think they will. John Coates strikes me as the kind of idiot who absolutely relishes his position, he probably uses it in an attempt to pull women. Wolverhampton has about the same population as Stoke but with one club... I mean the population of Wolverhampton and Birmingham together is about 1.5 million, that split between four clubs is no issue whatsoever. I just think the fact their intentions are good is so important. I have to say I'm not sure they will and I share your concern about John who does not convince me at all in interviews. Maybe he's more professional behind the scenes but I'm a little doubtful. Some take longer to learn than others, I hope they will learn though.
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Post by Gods on Mar 7, 2022 16:05:49 GMT
A DOF would be another mouth to feed and we're not in a position to do that at the moment with FFP. And what's to say that we don't appoint the wrong DOF? It would also require a special bond between the manager and the DOF. Could somebody tell me how many clubs with a DOF are doing better than ones without them? I can name you one where it hasn't made any significant difference, and it's only just up the road. OS. I agree, it's an extra layer of complexity and cost we don't need. A good manager with a forward thinking Chief Exec working hand in glove with a supportive Board is the winning formula for our club.
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Post by blackpoolred on Mar 7, 2022 16:11:33 GMT
We possibly need more modern owners if we are going to move forward - not a guarantee that we would, but at the moment we know if we get rid of MON we will more than likely get another British manager who we would have to google to find out who he is.
Xenophobia aside I think they have proved they struggle to run a football club on more than 1 occasion and I just think their values are as outdated as the town of Stoke itself.
Football has moved on and they have not - if you take their managerial recruitment strategy it is always the same - the job is advertised and only those that apply will be taken into consideration, after finding their man, which as stated must be British, they then always come out with the same owd garbage: he sounded keen, knew a lot about the club, etc - hence we get a manager desperate for a break we have never heard of, but as long as he sounded ok and keen in the interview then all is good and he must be the man for the job.
Problem is we are not looking to recruit an office worker - We need to be going out and selling our club to the best manager we can possibly get, sometimes that is going to require us to do a bit of the groveling and we certainly need to expand our horizons past the UK.
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Mar 7, 2022 16:24:53 GMT
If its the ones in charge of the club that are the problem, what can be done about it, they ain't going to quit and leave are they?
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Post by stokeyank on Mar 7, 2022 16:41:52 GMT
Sadly right now it is exactly what we need. Players thrive on consistency, yet our manager has never seemes to have any, in terms of tactics, lineups or even basic style of play. The past few games has shown exactly what that leads to. Frustration and a team who looks lost. It would be very hard for anyone to go out and play hard if they were not sure exactly what they were supposed to be doing. Ten do it along side teammates who you rarely get game time with. Sure injuries happen, and sometimes you make wholesale changes for cup ties to give players rest and others opportunity. But it does not excuse situations like DWP playing and doing well, then suddenly not even making the bench. It's just one example. There are many in the past couple years. That also means a few players will consistently be left out and upset. So be it, they need to understand their chance will come and their current role in the squad. Their chance could be through injury, cup games or someone just not working in the team or role that are currently ahead of them. Take that opportunity and run with it. This also create real competition for places in the team. It's no coincidence that when Leicester won the league they had the same formation every game and by far the fewest different starting 11 in the whole league. The term "master of none" comes to mind. I work in IT. My boss does not tell me to write a novel, then write some code and finish the day knitting. I have ability and confidence because I know my job and my role. Something the current manager does not seem to be able to give our players right now.
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Mar 7, 2022 17:39:04 GMT
I'm not pretending to come up with something original, it's been said here a million times before, but it deserves it's own thread. Clearly we are lagging behind the modern game and we need something similar to a director of football. We have some systems in place that would compliment such a role, a transfer team independent of the manager etc. We need some vision that extends beyond the manager's personal philosophies because I'm not remotely convinced we will replace MON in a sensible way. Rowett is old school and conservative, Jones wanted modern pressing and the diamond and MON wants to allegedly play with the Liverpool 4-3-3 style or the 5-3-2. It's no wonder our squad is so disjointed when we're going to sign three successive managers with wildly distinct styles. If a new man comes in they're going to have the exact same bastard problems. We have some players of quality in our team but the balance is comical. We need someone with some oversight on managerial and player signings and who has some vision about the footballing identity of our club. It's 100% what we need but I think you'd need to change the manager as well. Firstly because you risk the tail wagging the dog if you do it another way - the Sporting Director would be the one institution the overarching vision, that means he identifies the right manager for the project as well as the principles for the recruitment team, academy etc. Also because the current manager seems incapable of getting out of his own way. We seem to be in the same end game Colonel Kurtz phase with him that we've had with every manager since Hughes, where he clearly doesn't know how to fix things and is panicking and chopping and changing personnel and formations at will. That team sheet on Saturday was a cry for help. Love the colonel Kurtz reference. Thanks to a board that refuses to sack a manager until it's too late we get to see the complete collapse of any common sense O'Neill: Are my methods unsound? Joe Allen: I don't see any method at all sir
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2022 17:42:18 GMT
We have no idea if John Coates is capable of running a football club. It requires a skillset that isn't just throwing money at it. It's great they're fans and 'care' for the club but so do many tens of thousands. They're the custodians of it and unfortunately have made a very poor job of running it for the past six years. It's not for me to speak up for Coates, but we haven't been relegated six years running and we haven't been hit with FFP...yet. I'm not saying the last four years have been fun, but "a very poor job" is not adequate. Results notwithstanding there is probably no other board which have done as much as them for the benefit of the town, the club, and the supporters. It just hasn't been enough, it never really is with this crowd. John Ritchie said it right in the late 60s, 'maybe Stoke's fans don't deserve their club. 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Mar 7, 2022 17:45:27 GMT
A DOF would be another mouth to feed and we're not in a position to do that at the moment with FFP. And what's to say that we don't appoint the wrong DOF? It would also require a special bond between the manager and the DOF. Could somebody tell me how many clubs with a DOF are doing better than ones without them? I can name you one where it hasn't made any significant difference, and it's only just up the road. OS. I agree, it's an extra layer of complexity and cost we don't need. A good manager with a forward thinking Chief Exec working hand in glove with a supportive Board is the winning formula for our club. So how does recruitment factor into that?
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Post by march4 on Mar 7, 2022 18:03:20 GMT
The Coates family are the best thing that has ever happened to our club. Without them, we would have spent time in the 4th Division and not the Prem. The Icelanders were keen but in the end seemed naïve and we were in difficult position when they left. Who on Earth would have bought us at that juncture. Certainly not a multi-billionaire Stoke City fanatic who was prepared to chuck money at the club. Coates' Golden Share made sure no one else had a chance to buy Stoke from the Icelandic Consortium. His eventual return was never in doubt. And let us not forget, he sold Stoke to them in the first place because between him and Humphreys and Moxey, the club was spiralling towards the lower leagues. For good. Oh dear!
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Post by Davef on Mar 7, 2022 18:10:55 GMT
Coates' Golden Share made sure no one else had a chance to buy Stoke from the Icelandic Consortium. His eventual return was never in doubt. And let us not forget, he sold Stoke to them in the first place because between him and Humphreys and Moxey, the club was spiralling towards the lower leagues. For good. Oh dear! Oh dear what? What's so wrong about that post?
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Post by Gods on Mar 7, 2022 18:13:39 GMT
I agree, it's an extra layer of complexity and cost we don't need. A good manager with a forward thinking Chief Exec working hand in glove with a supportive Board is the winning formula for our club. So how does recruitment factor into that? The good manager would be the final arbiter working with the recruitment team within the budget set by the Chief Exec in his negotiations with the Board. Kind of how it has always worked, or not worked (!), in recent times. Guess I'm not convinced an extra pipe and slippers man sitting upstairs contemplating the meaning of life over a coffee and a couple of bourbon biscuits would help much, in fact it may even hinder. And he's another one to pay off when it all goes Pete Tong!
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Post by leicspotter on Mar 7, 2022 18:23:12 GMT
So how does recruitment factor into that? The good manager would be the final arbiter working with the recruitment team within the budget set by the Chief Exec in his negotiations with the Board. Kind of how it has always worked, or not worked (!), in recent times. Guess I'm not convinced an extra pipe and slippers man sitting upstairs contemplating the meaning of life over a coffee and a couple of bourbon biscuits would help much, in fact it may even hinder. And he's another one to pay off when it all goes Pete Tong! But we don't have a Chief exec either at the moment, so it (DOF) might not be an extra mouth to feed, just a different type of mouth
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Mar 7, 2022 18:27:16 GMT
So how does recruitment factor into that? The good manager would be the final arbiter working with the recruitment team within the budget set by the Chief Exec in his negotiations with the Board. Kind of how it has always worked, or not worked (!), in recent times. Guess I'm not convinced an extra pipe and slippers man sitting upstairs contemplating the meaning of life over a coffee and a couple of bourbon biscuits would help much, in fact it may even hinder. And he's another one to pay off when it all goes Pete Tong! But then when said manager leaves one way or another you’ve got to start from scratch again? The next manager might want to play a completely different way not suited to the players you’ve got. Your whole identity on the pitch is beholden to the whims of the manager. That, as has been noted on this thread, has contributed to the mess we are in - Rowett, Jones and O’Neill all had a very different ethos to the previous incumbent. There’s no continuity, no overarching vision.
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Post by Miles Offside on Mar 7, 2022 18:44:50 GMT
A DOF would be another mouth to feed and we're not in a position to do that at the moment with FFP. And what's to say that we don't appoint the wrong DOF? It would also require a special bond between the manager and the DOF. Could somebody tell me how many clubs with a DOF are doing better than ones without them? I can name you one where it hasn't made any significant difference, and it's only just up the road. OS. I agree, it's an extra layer of complexity and cost we don't need. A good manager with a forward thinking Chief Exec working hand in glove with a supportive Board is the winning formula for our club. I also agree. It's hard enough to appoint a decent manager, let alone a decent manager and an equally good DOF who, by some form of alchemy, dovetail together perfectly on transfer policy and all practical matters relating to the the actual football we play on the pitch. Better to appoint a couple of wise old heads as Executive Board members- Denis Smith, with decades of experience as a player and manager could be one, for example. They would help the Board to support the manager, but the buck definitely stops with the latter. Plus we'd need a CEO to look after the business side of things.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Mar 7, 2022 18:49:57 GMT
I agree, it's an extra layer of complexity and cost we don't need. A good manager with a forward thinking Chief Exec working hand in glove with a supportive Board is the winning formula for our club. I also agree. It's hard enough to appoint a decent manager, let alone a decent manager and an equally good DOF who, by some form of alchemy, dovetail together perfectly on transfer policy and all practical matters relating to the the actual football we play on the pitch. Better to appoint a couple of wise old heads as Executive Board members- Denis Smith, with decades of experience as a player and manager could be one, for example. They would help the Board to support the manager, but the buck definitely stops with the latter. Plus we'd need a CEO to look after the business side of things. Is it that difficult, plenty of other clubs seem have to managed it ok? If you went for a sporting director rather than a DoF you wouldn’t necessarily need a CEO.
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Post by theonlooker on Mar 7, 2022 18:59:42 GMT
A Sporting Director in waiting, a product of La Masia, a contact list that will probably be as long as his arm, huge experience working under and with top coaches at one of the greatest footbal institutions of world football, who cites Stoke as his second home?
I mean, what are we messing around at?
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Post by thevoid on Mar 7, 2022 19:04:49 GMT
The Coates family are the best thing that has ever happened to our club. Without them, we would have spent time in the 4th Division and not the Prem. The Icelanders were keen but in the end seemed naïve and we were in difficult position when they left. Who on Earth would have bought us at that juncture. Certainly not a multi-billionaire Stoke City fanatic who was prepared to chuck money at the club. Utter nonsense We were hurtling towards Division 4 under Coates when the Icelanders took over to haul us back from the brink. Upto then, Southend's record transfer fee was bigger than ours (Mike Marsh if you're interested). Do you not remember the protests after the 0-7 Birmingham defeat, the King's Hall meeting or 'Support the club, nothing else matters', which was an early 'What's all the fuss about?' It's also interesting to bear in mind that most of our time historically in the 3rd tier has been under the Coates Family- two of our three spells at that level have been on their watch. And it was nearly a third spell.
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Post by Miles Offside on Mar 7, 2022 19:15:33 GMT
I also agree. It's hard enough to appoint a decent manager, let alone a decent manager and an equally good DOF who, by some form of alchemy, dovetail together perfectly on transfer policy and all practical matters relating to the the actual football we play on the pitch. Better to appoint a couple of wise old heads as Executive Board members- Denis Smith, with decades of experience as a player and manager could be one, for example. They would help the Board to support the manager, but the buck definitely stops with the latter. Plus we'd need a CEO to look after the business side of things. Is it that difficult, plenty of other clubs seem have to managed it ok? If you went for a sporting director rather than a DoF you wouldn’t necessarily need a CEO. Seems like semantics to me. You'd still have the same issues between a Sporting director and manager as you would between a DOF and manager. Management structures, in my view, work better when they're simpler. Introduce new tiers and everybody wants the credit when things go right and there's a lot of finger pointing when things go wrong.
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