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Post by JoeinOz on Dec 7, 2021 12:04:54 GMT
Hodge got about 30 caps. Hardly excessive Feels like a lot, he was pretty middling. Part of two World Cup squads! Lordb's point about Hoddle and Robson not working is an interesting one. For all the mocking of 'he doesn't track back' etc, you do need a balanced midfield and if a player, however talented, doesn't fit how you want to play it's better sometimes to leave them out than shoehorn them in. Sven should have had the bollocks to drop one or both of Gerrard and Lampard. Yes Sven should. Also Lampard and Gerrard's inability to work it out doesn't look good on either of them. The thing is Hoddle used to say he was frustrated about not having a more expansive England career. He saw a lot of himself in Le Tissier as far as England frustrations go. When he managed Chelsea Hoddle was obsessed with Le Tissier. He tried to buy him and went to great lengths with Matthew Harding in tow to try and get him. The proposed finance involved Chelsea needing eight full houses a season just to pay Le Tiss. The move fell through obviously. When he managed England he could've used Le Tissier whenever he wanted but rarely took the plunge. The lesson being, despite seeing himself in him, despite his stunning talent, Hoddle simply couldn't afford to lose what you lose with in him in the team despite getting what you get with him. Ditto all the 70s mavericks.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 7, 2021 12:10:27 GMT
Feels like a lot, he was pretty middling. Part of two World Cup squads! Lordb's point about Hoddle and Robson not working is an interesting one. For all the mocking of 'he doesn't track back' etc, you do need a balanced midfield and if a player, however talented, doesn't fit how you want to play it's better sometimes to leave them out than shoehorn them in. Sven should have had the bollocks to drop one or both of Gerrard and Lampard. Yes Sven should. Also Lampard and Gerrard's inability to work it out doesn't look good on either of them. The thing is Hoddle used to say he was frustrated about not having a more expansive England career. He saw a lot of himself in Le Tissier as far as England frustrations go. When he managed Chelsea Hoddle was obsessed with Le Tissier. He tried to buy him and went to great lengths with Matthew Harding in tow to try and get him. The proposed finance involved Chelsea needing eight full houses a season just to pay Le Tiss. The move fell through obviously. When he managed England he could've used Le Tissier whenever he wanted but rarely took the plunge. The lesson being, despite seeing himself in him, despite his stunning talent, Hoddle simply couldn't afford to lose what you lose with in him in the team despite getting what you get with him. Ditto all the 70s mavericks. I think there is a bit of something in the argument that Hoddle the manager seemed to feel a bit threatened that players in his mould in the team somehow took credit away from him and his 'genius'. He was, at that stage in his career, a really poor man-manager. I'm sure he'd want to do things differently in that regard now.
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Post by JoeinOz on Dec 7, 2021 12:14:50 GMT
Yes Sven should. Also Lampard and Gerrard's inability to work it out doesn't look good on either of them. The thing is Hoddle used to say he was frustrated about not having a more expansive England career. He saw a lot of himself in Le Tissier as far as England frustrations go. When he managed Chelsea Hoddle was obsessed with Le Tissier. He tried to buy him and went to great lengths with Matthew Harding in tow to try and get him. The proposed finance involved Chelsea needing eight full houses a season just to pay Le Tiss. The move fell through obviously. When he managed England he could've used Le Tissier whenever he wanted but rarely took the plunge. The lesson being, despite seeing himself in him, despite his stunning talent, Hoddle simply couldn't afford to lose what you lose with in him in the team despite getting what you get with him. Ditto all the 70s mavericks. I think there is a bit of something in the argument that Hoddle the manager seemed to feel a bit threatened that players in his mould in the team somehow took credit away from him and his 'genius'. He was, at that stage in his career, a really poor man-manager. I'm sure he'd want to do things differently in that regard now. Me too. Although he says that side of things was exaggerated. One thing though is the performance in Rome was one of the most accomplished England performances ever. And it's still annoying Wright didn't score at the end
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 7, 2021 12:17:38 GMT
I think there is a bit of something in the argument that Hoddle the manager seemed to feel a bit threatened that players in his mould in the team somehow took credit away from him and his 'genius'. He was, at that stage in his career, a really poor man-manager. I'm sure he'd want to do things differently in that regard now. Me too. Although he says that side of things was exaggerated. One thing though is the performance in Rome was one of the most accomplished England performances ever. And it's still annoying Wright didn't score at the end Though still a relief that Vieri missed that sitter at the other end, going to Russia wouldn't have been much fun after that... Tactically Hoddle was very assured, the reorganisation after Beckham's red against Argentina was smart as well.
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Post by wakeypotter on Dec 7, 2021 12:24:04 GMT
You can class Gazza as not being in a fit position to play in that World Cup but overrated he was not. Difference of opinion, Gascoigne didn’t achieve much in comparison to other players. In today’s game he would constantly get booked for using his arms and barging players out the way. He was overrated and a complete embarrassment to represent his country off the field and occasionally on. Doesn’t come close to Hoddle!! Jesus wept are you that guy I’ve been reading about on sentinel taking the monkey dust
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Post by JoeinOz on Dec 7, 2021 12:24:31 GMT
Me too. Although he says that side of things was exaggerated. One thing though is the performance in Rome was one of the most accomplished England performances ever. And it's still annoying Wright didn't score at the end Though still a relief that Vieri missed that sitter at the other end, going to Russia wouldn't have been much fun after that... Tactically Hoddle was very assured, the reorganisation after Beckham's red against Argentina was smart as well. One of football's big myths is we'd have won if Beckham hadn't seen red. In reality, after Scholes missed his great chance we were pegged back at the end of the first half. The impetus of the equaliser on the stroke of half time put Argentina in control of the game. The red card meant we had to rearrange the side which, as you say, Hoddle did very well.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 7, 2021 12:26:15 GMT
Though still a relief that Vieri missed that sitter at the other end, going to Russia wouldn't have been much fun after that... Tactically Hoddle was very assured, the reorganisation after Beckham's red against Argentina was smart as well. One of football's big myths is we'd have won if Beckham hadn't seen red. In reality, after Scholes missed his great chance we were pegged back at the end of the first half. The impetus of the equaliser on the stroke of half time put Argentina in control of the game. The red card meant we had to rearrange the side which, as you say, Hoddle did very well. Batty taking a penalty still seems odd, given how meticulous Hoddle's preparations were.
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Post by kerouac on Dec 7, 2021 12:26:38 GMT
There’s one instance in a game,I can’t remember who they were playing,but Hoddle just glides past someone as if they weren’t there in the centre circle and goes onto score (if I remember correctly)…..at the time it was one of the most graceful bit of footy I’d seen in my life.
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Post by JoeinOz on Dec 7, 2021 12:34:14 GMT
There’s one instance in a game,I can’t remember who they were playing,but Hoddle just glides past someone as if they weren’t there in the centre circle and goes onto score (if I remember correctly)…..at the time it was one of the most graceful bit of footy I’d seen in my life. It sounds like his last league game for Spurs against Oxford. Is it this?
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Post by kerouac on Dec 7, 2021 12:57:50 GMT
There’s one instance in a game,I can’t remember who they were playing,but Hoddle just glides past someone as if they weren’t there in the centre circle and goes onto score (if I remember correctly)…..at the time it was one of the most graceful bit of footy I’d seen in my life. It sounds like his last league game for Spurs against Oxford. Is it this? It fucking well is you beauty….! Great work chief…..it’s just as brilliant as I remember!!!!
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Post by foxysgloves on Dec 7, 2021 13:07:41 GMT
It sounds like his last league game for Spurs against Oxford. Is it this? It fucking well is you beauty….! Great work chief…..it’s just as brilliant as I remember!!!! It’s sublime. Almost looks staged. He’s made three or four top level professional footballers look as if they never played the game before. And he only touches the ball about 3 or 4 times. Gifted.
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Post by armitage on Dec 7, 2021 17:56:22 GMT
Why did he not get more England caps than he did? Did Robson not trust him? he played Wilkins &/or Neil Webb at times instead Hoddle in a 442 > even with Bryan Robson next to him wasn't right really at Monaco he played behind the striker & was a revelation & to be fair David Pleat played him there for Spurs when Clive Allen got 49 in one season Quite right. Maybe we should try that set up with Sawyers (may need to switch to 4231 to work?)
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Post by J-Roar on Dec 7, 2021 18:03:30 GMT
Pick that out.
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Post by RF10 on Dec 7, 2021 18:08:54 GMT
You can class Gazza as not being in a fit position to play in that World Cup but overrated he was not. Difference of opinion, Gascoigne didn’t achieve much in comparison to other players. In today’s game he would constantly get booked for using his arms and barging players out the way. He was overrated and a complete embarrassment to represent his country off the field and occasionally on. Doesn’t come close to Hoddle!! I'm not comparing him to Hoddle though, I'm saying he was not overrated. Hes was a genuine talented skillfull football who probably would have won much more had he packed in his antics but that doesn't change his ability.
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Post by J-Roar on Dec 7, 2021 18:10:54 GMT
You can class Gazza as not being in a fit position to play in that World Cup but overrated he was not. Difference of opinion, Gascoigne didn’t achieve much in comparison to other players. In today’s game he would constantly get booked for using his arms and barging players out the way. He was overrated and a complete embarrassment to represent his country off the field and occasionally on. Doesn’t come close to Hoddle!! You don't think Gascoigne would adapt? It's like saying Denis Smith wouldn't make it today as he'd be constantly sent off for scything tackles. You play to what you can get away with and when refereeing changes you change. Some can't but the true greats can. As for behaviour off the pitch, we can discount Best and Maradona in that case.
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Post by thfc67 on Dec 7, 2021 18:29:49 GMT
“It takes great courage to play the way Hoddle does” Brian Clough “I’ve heard a lot about you, but I didn’t realise how good you were until I played against you.” Johan Cruyff “If Hoddle had been French, he would have won well over 100 caps and the team would have been built around him.” Michel Platini Glenn Hoddle - 8 Golden Goals for Spurs
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Post by thfc67 on Dec 7, 2021 18:43:12 GMT
Marvellous player. Excellent centre midfield balance with Ardiles. I was at that game Joe. It was one of the few times I have been mesmerised by a display of football, that first half finished with Spurs leading 4-0 with an outstanding display from Hoddle. I remember the whole ground standing and applauding and cheering Hoddle and the team off. The second half was a bit of an anti-climax, we lost it 2-0. But I've never forgotten that night, and now and again I will talk about it to younger fans.
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Post by J-Roar on Dec 7, 2021 18:47:53 GMT
“It takes great courage to play the way Hoddle does” Brian Clough “I’ve heard a lot about you, but I didn’t realise how good you were until I played against you.” Johan Cruyff “If Hoddle had been French, he would have won well over 100 caps and the team would have been built around him.” Michel Platini Glenn Hoddle - 8 Golden Goals for SpursWhat's your view on Gazza as a player?
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Post by Caerwrangonpotter on Dec 7, 2021 18:53:39 GMT
'ave it!
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Post by thfc67 on Dec 7, 2021 19:09:53 GMT
“It takes great courage to play the way Hoddle does” Brian Clough “I’ve heard a lot about you, but I didn’t realise how good you were until I played against you.” Johan Cruyff “If Hoddle had been French, he would have won well over 100 caps and the team would have been built around him.” Michel Platini Glenn Hoddle - 8 Golden Goals for SpursWhat's your view on Gazza as a player? An outstandingly natural footballer, a joy to watch in his prime. He reminded me a bit of Maradona, that low centre of gravity body, with the ability to run at speed, twisting and turning with the ball seemly glued to the boot. He carried Spurs to the FA Cup win in 1991. Unfortunately for Gazza, it was all to much for him. He came out of the tunnel in the final so pyched up, he was lucky not to be sent off in the first few minutes for a rash challenge. Minutes later he left the field on a stretcher after another terrible tackle committed by him (he'd torn his cruciate ligaments). He was never the same player again.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2021 19:14:10 GMT
What's your view on Gazza as a player? An outstandingly natural footballer, a joy to watch in his prime. He reminded me a bit of Maradona, that low centre of gravity body, with the ability to run at speed, twisting and turning with the ball seemly glued to the boot. He carried Spurs to the FA Cup win in 1991. Unfortunately for Gazza, it was all to much for him. He came out of the tunnel in the final so pyched up, he was lucky not to be sent off in the first few minutes for a rash challenge. Minutes later he left the field on a stretcher after another terrible tackle committed by him (he'd torn his cruciate ligaments). He was never the same player again. Hoddle twice the player for me.
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Post by JoeinOz on Dec 7, 2021 20:27:05 GMT
What's your view on Gazza as a player? An outstandingly natural footballer, a joy to watch in his prime. He reminded me a bit of Maradona, that low centre of gravity body, with the ability to run at speed, twisting and turning with the ball seemly glued to the boot. He carried Spurs to the FA Cup win in 1991. Unfortunately for Gazza, it was all to much for him. He came out of the tunnel in the final so pyched up, he was lucky not to be sent off in the first few minutes for a rash challenge. Minutes later he left the field on a stretcher after another terrible tackle committed by him (he'd torn his cruciate ligaments). He was never the same player again. Knowing Gascoigne as he did, can you question Venables for allowing him to vet into such a state of anxiety? I know the buck stops with Paul but surely his manager could've picked it and acted on it.
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Post by hyaduck on Dec 7, 2021 20:46:44 GMT
Gascoigne never had a manager who could deal with him, any decent manager would have taken him to one side and said do that again and you’re out!! They all let him get away with his embarrassing behaviour. Some say Fergie would have changed him, he wouldn’t have lasted 5 mins with Fergie, he would have been shipped out in the next window!!
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Post by J-Roar on Dec 7, 2021 21:05:21 GMT
Gascoigne never had a manager who could deal with him, any decent manager would have taken him to one side and said do that again and you’re out!! They all let him get away with his embarrassing behaviour. Some say Fergie would have changed him, he wouldn’t have lasted 5 mins with Fergie, he would have been shipped out in the next window!! Venables, Jack Charlton, Dino Zoff and Walter Smith weren't decent managers?
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Post by hyaduck on Dec 7, 2021 21:09:27 GMT
Gascoigne never had a manager who could deal with him, any decent manager would have taken him to one side and said do that again and you’re out!! They all let him get away with his embarrassing behaviour. Some say Fergie would have changed him, he wouldn’t have lasted 5 mins with Fergie, he would have been shipped out in the next window!! Venables, Jack Charlton, Dino Zoff and Walter Smith weren't decent managers? None of them could manage his antics. They let him get away with embarrassing the clubs he played for off the pitch. You could hardly call him a roll model could you!!
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Post by J-Roar on Dec 7, 2021 21:20:56 GMT
Venables, Jack Charlton, Dino Zoff and Walter Smith weren't decent managers? None of them could manage his antics. They let him get away with embarrassing the clubs he played for off the pitch. You could hardly call him a roll model could you!! To be honest, I couldn't care less about role models. Would you rather have Hudson or Dean Whitehead playing for you? Never heard of any antics from Deano so I assume you'd go for him?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2021 21:35:29 GMT
An outstandingly natural footballer, a joy to watch in his prime. He reminded me a bit of Maradona, that low centre of gravity body, with the ability to run at speed, twisting and turning with the ball seemly glued to the boot. He carried Spurs to the FA Cup win in 1991. Unfortunately for Gazza, it was all to much for him. He came out of the tunnel in the final so pyched up, he was lucky not to be sent off in the first few minutes for a rash challenge. Minutes later he left the field on a stretcher after another terrible tackle committed by him (he'd torn his cruciate ligaments). He was never the same player again. Knowing Gascoigne as he did, can you question Venables for allowing him to vet into such a state of anxiety? I know the buck stops with Paul but surely his manager could've picked it and acted on it. I think he was and always will be a bloody idiot. You can't blame managers, he surrounded himself by similar types and hangers on. Had moments of brilliance but better remembered for his antics at times.
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Post by hyaduck on Dec 8, 2021 4:00:51 GMT
Knowing Gascoigne as he did, can you question Venables for allowing him to vet into such a state of anxiety? I know the buck stops with Paul but surely his manager could've picked it and acted on it. I think he was and always will be a bloody idiot. You can't blame managers, he surrounded himself by similar types and hangers on. Had moments of brilliance but better remembered for his antics at times. Yes you can blame managers, they should of fucked him off, probably would of taught him a lesson.
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Post by JoeinOz on Dec 8, 2021 4:38:12 GMT
Knowing Gascoigne as he did, can you question Venables for allowing him to vet into such a state of anxiety? I know the buck stops with Paul but surely his manager could've picked it and acted on it. I think he was and always will be a bloody idiot. You can't blame managers, he surrounded himself by similar types and hangers on. Had moments of brilliance but better remembered for his antics at times. I'm not blaming managers for Gascoigne's ongoing chaos. But in the case of the 1991 FA Cup Final Venables should've been more aware of his mindset
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Post by hyaduck on Dec 8, 2021 9:23:39 GMT
None of them could manage his antics. They let him get away with embarrassing the clubs he played for off the pitch. You could hardly call him a roll model could you!! To be honest, I couldn't care less about role models. Would you rather have Hudson or Dean Whitehead playing for you? Never heard of any antics from Deano so I assume you'd go for him? I know who I'd rather go out on the pull with and it wouldn't be Whitehead!! Every other player in the 70s liked a bevy and played up. Gascoigne was/is an absolute tool as well as a pisshead who was a complete embarrassment to his country off the field. Burping down a microphone and telling a reporter to fuckoff is class as pretty cool to you I guess? I love a bevy and believe me no angel, so not ashamed or embarrassed about the odd pisshead, but he was a complete bellend!!
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