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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Oct 23, 2021 20:23:20 GMT
Until recently we were right up there in terms of most chances created in the division. I think you lose that if you ditch the system because I think we’ve built a squad with wing backs instead of full backs. I think you still have the same problems in midfield as well ie we don’t have a DM. You can’t play Sawyers as one of the deeper two. Allen and Thompson share the load of a DM so I think you have to play both, play Powell as one of your front two and have Vrancic or Sawyers as the most advanced of the midfield three. I don't agree that you can't play Sawyers as a deep midfielder, I think that's his best position. Great joke.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 23, 2021 21:22:21 GMT
Until recently we were right up there in terms of most chances created in the division. I think you lose that if you ditch the system because I think we’ve built a squad with wing backs instead of full backs. I think you still have the same problems in midfield as well ie we don’t have a DM. You can’t play Sawyers as one of the deeper two. Allen and Thompson share the load of a DM so I think you have to play both, play Powell as one of your front two and have Vrancic or Sawyers as the most advanced of the midfield three. I don't agree that you can't play Sawyers as a deep midfielder, I think that's his best position. So who’s going to do the tackling and the off the ball work that he won’t do?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2021 21:23:20 GMT
Ditch Joe Allen. He's fucking useless and a drain on our club.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 23, 2021 21:23:55 GMT
Allen, Thompson and Vrancic is what I’d go for mate. I'd have Sawyers in there instead of Allen. The pair of them can be equally wasteful with their passing. Allen has the edge in terms of tackling (though that's not saying much) but Sawyers has the edge in terms of moving the ball forward and creativity so that's why I'd opt for him. But in the deeper role you need discipline and some defensive capabilities first and foremost. Especially since we don’t have a player in the squad who’s a specialist at that. We’ve got creativity in other areas.
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Post by matelot1996 on Oct 23, 2021 21:32:29 GMT
this 3 at the back with wing backs shit. Guardiola and Klopp won't entertain it but maybe MON is more progressive?? When you have Wilmot pushing forward and invariably passing to the opposition and Chester constantly exposed and incapable you have big problems. We were exposed and “Found Out” over these last 3 games. It will be a long hard season if MON persists with this line up and system.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 23, 2021 21:35:31 GMT
this 3 at the back with wing backs shit. Guardiola and Klopp won't entertain it but maybe MON is more progressive?? When you have Wilmot pushing forward and invariably passing to the opposition and Chester constantly exposed and incapable you have big problems. We were exposed and “Found Out” over these last 3 games. It will be a long hard season if MON persists with this line up and system. What system would you play?
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Post by matelot1996 on Oct 23, 2021 21:47:43 GMT
When you have Wilmot pushing forward and invariably passing to the opposition and Chester constantly exposed and incapable you have big problems. We were exposed and “Found Out” over these last 3 games. It will be a long hard season if MON persists with this line up and system. What system would you play? Not one that exposes our weak as piss defensive inadequacies. Souter was doing the work of 3 men today. If he insists on playing Chester then it has to be 4 at the back. The rest depends on who is fit. At the moment you can’t count on Powell, Campbell or Fletcher to play full time. It’s a sorry situation.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 23, 2021 21:48:21 GMT
What system would you play? Not one that exposes our weak as piss defensive inadequacies. Souter was doing the work of 3 men today. If he insists on playing Chester then it has to be 4 at the back. The rest depends on who is fit. At the moment you can’t count on Powell, Campbell or Fletcher to play full time. It’s a sorry situation. So again, what would your team be?
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Post by greystokie on Oct 23, 2021 21:48:24 GMT
I'd have Sawyers in there instead of Allen. The pair of them can be equally wasteful with their passing. Allen has the edge in terms of tackling (though that's not saying much) but Sawyers has the edge in terms of moving the ball forward and creativity so that's why I'd opt for him. But in the deeper role you need discipline and some defensive capabilities first and foremost. Especially since we don’t have a player in the squad who’s a specialist at that. We’ve got creativity in other areas. Oh, it's not ideal, by any stretch. It's just that I really don't think Joe Allen contributes very much at all. He seldom shows the discipline required for the defensive position and most of the time he's deadweight and his tackling is usually very poor. I just think that, overall, we gain a bit more advantage by the inclusion of Sawyers. With the players we have I think the main ingredient is Thomson. He's not brilliant in the dm role but he's the best we've got and I can't fathom why he gets excluded. I think the conclusion to be drawn from the whole of this thread is that the midfield players we have, in any combination, don't provide what we really need. Whether that can be sorted in the January window remains to be seen - personally, I don't think we'll be able to sign the player with the defensive qualities that are necessary.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 23, 2021 21:53:00 GMT
But in the deeper role you need discipline and some defensive capabilities first and foremost. Especially since we don’t have a player in the squad who’s a specialist at that. We’ve got creativity in other areas. Oh, it's not ideal, by any stretch. It's just that I really don't think Joe Allen contributes very much at all. He seldom shows the discipline required for the defensive position and most of the time he's deadweight and his tackling is usually very poor. I just think that, overall, we gain a bit more advantage by the inclusion of Sawyers. With the players we have I think the main ingredient is Thomson. He's not brilliant in the dm role but he's the best we've got and I can't fathom why he gets excluded. I think the conclusion to be drawn from the whole of this thread is that the midfield players we have, in any combination, don't provide what we really need. Whether that can be sorted in the January window remains to be seen - personally, I don't think we'll be able to sign the player with the defensive qualities that are necessary. If you drop Allen, as average as he is, you have the same problem though - you’ve got one player relied on to do all of the dirty work on midfield. You just can’t play Sawyers in that deeper role because he won’t do any of that.
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Post by march4 on Oct 23, 2021 21:56:30 GMT
this 3 at the back with wing backs shit. Guardiola and Klopp won't entertain it but maybe MON is more progressive?? When you have Wilmot pushing forward and invariably passing to the opposition and Chester constantly exposed and incapable you have big problems. We were exposed and “Found Out” over these last 3 games. It will be a long hard season if MON persists with this line up and system. I am getting less impressed with Wilmot with every passing game.
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Post by matelot1996 on Oct 23, 2021 21:59:43 GMT
When you have Wilmot pushing forward and invariably passing to the opposition and Chester constantly exposed and incapable you have big problems. We were exposed and “Found Out” over these last 3 games. It will be a long hard season if MON persists with this line up and system. What system would you play? Not one that exposes our weak as piss defensive inadequacies. Souttar was doing the work of 3 men today. If he insists on playing Chester then it has to be 4 at the back. You cannot play 3 at the back with Chester in the line up, he has no cover which he desperately needs. The rest depends on who is fit. At the moment you can’t count on Powell, Campbell or Fletcher to play full time. The midfield is a car crash. It’s a sorry situation. I don’t envy the manager.
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Post by kustokie on Oct 23, 2021 22:01:17 GMT
Doesn’t matter what formation we play if don’t do the basics, such as playing to the whistle and not ball-watching.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Oct 23, 2021 22:03:37 GMT
Until recently we were right up there in terms of most chances created in the division. I think you lose that if you ditch the system because I think we’ve built a squad with wing backs instead of full backs. I think you still have the same problems in midfield as well ie we don’t have a DM. You can’t play Sawyers as one of the deeper two. Allen and Thompson share the load of a DM so I think you have to play both, play Powell as one of your front two and have Vrancic or Sawyers as the most advanced of the midfield three. I don't agree that you can't play Sawyers as a deep midfielder, I think that's his best position. You’re a nutcase!
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Post by prestwichpotter on Oct 23, 2021 22:04:33 GMT
Go back to Ostigard, Souttar, Wilmott. It’s not perfect they’re young and will make mistakes but it’s a work in progress.
I think Tymon needs a rest, Doughty’s illness has come at a shit time……
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Oct 23, 2021 22:06:04 GMT
Go back to Ostigard, Souttar, Wilmott. It’s not perfect they’re young and will make mistakes but it’s a work in progress. I think Tymon needs a rest, Doughty’s illness has come at a shit time…… Agree with all that
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 23, 2021 22:07:13 GMT
O’Neill said last week that he plays this system because Smith and Tymon are better wing backs than full backs so I’d suggest we may be persisting with it for a while yet. Sounds like sense to me. Tymon looked very, very poor when we played him at full back previously. Was it Vs Brighton or something where he back-passed to their forward?
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Post by greystokie on Oct 23, 2021 22:09:16 GMT
Oh, it's not ideal, by any stretch. It's just that I really don't think Joe Allen contributes very much at all. He seldom shows the discipline required for the defensive position and most of the time he's deadweight and his tackling is usually very poor. I just think that, overall, we gain a bit more advantage by the inclusion of Sawyers. With the players we have I think the main ingredient is Thomson. He's not brilliant in the dm role but he's the best we've got and I can't fathom why he gets excluded. I think the conclusion to be drawn from the whole of this thread is that the midfield players we have, in any combination, don't provide what we really need. Whether that can be sorted in the January window remains to be seen - personally, I don't think we'll be able to sign the player with the defensive qualities that are necessary. If you drop Allen, as average as he is, you have the same problem though - you’ve got one player relied on to do all of the dirty work on midfield. You just can’t play Sawyers in that deeper role because he won’t do any of that. I totally see your point. I don't think the inclusion of Sawyers stiffens us up defensively, at all, it just gives us a bit more edge going forward. For me, if you put Allen in there we get a marginal improvement defensively but the overall gain is less. If we had Powell available and playing more like a midfield playmaker than as a striker then I might accept Allen in there but we lose much of Powell's creativity when he's shoehorned into the more advanced role - or if he drops deap then we've got Brown playing as the lone striker which is far from ideal. Either way it's a crap midfield that needs the injection of some new blood.
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Post by Gary Hackett on Oct 23, 2021 22:10:00 GMT
We don't have the players to go 4231.
Once Campbell and Fox are fit we could go 433 I suppose.
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 23, 2021 22:12:15 GMT
Oh, it's not ideal, by any stretch. It's just that I really don't think Joe Allen contributes very much at all. He seldom shows the discipline required for the defensive position and most of the time he's deadweight and his tackling is usually very poor. I just think that, overall, we gain a bit more advantage by the inclusion of Sawyers. With the players we have I think the main ingredient is Thomson. He's not brilliant in the dm role but he's the best we've got and I can't fathom why he gets excluded. I think the conclusion to be drawn from the whole of this thread is that the midfield players we have, in any combination, don't provide what we really need. Whether that can be sorted in the January window remains to be seen - personally, I don't think we'll be able to sign the player with the defensive qualities that are necessary. If you drop Allen, as average as he is, you have the same problem though - you’ve got one player relied on to do all of the dirty work on midfield. You just can’t play Sawyers in that deeper role because he won’t do any of that. The same conclusion as the last three games. Thompson-Allen-Vrancic/Sawyers is the best hope. Alternatives for CDM would only be what... Tymon or Wilmot?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 23, 2021 22:14:21 GMT
If you drop Allen, as average as he is, you have the same problem though - you’ve got one player relied on to do all of the dirty work on midfield. You just can’t play Sawyers in that deeper role because he won’t do any of that. I totally see your point. I don't think the inclusion of Sawyers stiffens us up defensively, at all, it just gives us a bit more edge going forward. For me, if you put Allen in there we get a marginal improvement defensively but the overall gain is less. If we had Powell available and playing more like a midfield playmaker than as a striker then I might accept Allen in there but we lose much of Powell's creativity when he's shoehorned into the more advanced role - or if he drops deap then we've got Brown playing as the lone striker which is far from ideal. Either way it's a crap midfield that needs the injection of some new blood. I don’t think it works like that in practice, if you look at our actual performances. Having an extra creative player in there doesn’t necessarily make you more creative if the balance isn’t right. Against West Brom we created a sackful of chances with Allen and Thompson taking care of the defensive stuff and freeing up Powell and Vrancic at the other end. Sawyers can pick a pass but we lose the middle with only one midfielder able/willing to track runs or recover the ball.
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Post by numpty40 on Oct 23, 2021 22:25:55 GMT
If you drop Allen, as average as he is, you have the same problem though - you’ve got one player relied on to do all of the dirty work on midfield. You just can’t play Sawyers in that deeper role because he won’t do any of that. I totally see your point. I don't think the inclusion of Sawyers stiffens us up defensively, at all, it just gives us a bit more edge going forward. For me, if you put Allen in there we get a marginal improvement defensively but the overall gain is less. If we had Powell available and playing more like a midfield playmaker than as a striker then I might accept Allen in there but we lose much of Powell's creativity when he's shoehorned into the more advanced role - or if he drops deap then we've got Brown playing as the lone striker which is far from ideal. Either way it's a crap midfield that needs the injection of some new blood. I think most championship sides would take a crap midfield choice of Allen, Thompson, Vrancic, Powell, Sawyers, Clucas.
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Post by hyaduck on Oct 24, 2021 6:37:53 GMT
Can we please ditch this manager. Pronto!
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Post by greystokie on Oct 24, 2021 8:05:47 GMT
I totally see your point. I don't think the inclusion of Sawyers stiffens us up defensively, at all, it just gives us a bit more edge going forward. For me, if you put Allen in there we get a marginal improvement defensively but the overall gain is less. If we had Powell available and playing more like a midfield playmaker than as a striker then I might accept Allen in there but we lose much of Powell's creativity when he's shoehorned into the more advanced role - or if he drops deap then we've got Brown playing as the lone striker which is far from ideal. Either way it's a crap midfield that needs the injection of some new blood. I think most championship sides would take a crap midfield choice of Allen, Thompson, Vrancic, Powell, Sawyers, Clucas. Perhaps they would but that doesn't disguise the fact that any combination of those players you could choose isn't good enough to stop the opposition cutting through us on a regular basis.
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Post by stokemark on Oct 24, 2021 8:17:52 GMT
If Smith had played yesterday we would have won that
Wilmot at right wingback was a disaster and I have no idea what MON was thinking given we had Duhaney on the bench. Both their goals game down that side and Wilmott failed to put a single decent ball into the front two.
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Post by potterburt on Oct 24, 2021 8:23:56 GMT
If Smith had played yesterday we would have won that Wilmot at right wingback was a disaster and I have no idea what MON was thinking given we had Duhaney on the bench. Both their goals game down that side and Wilmott failed to put a single decent ball into the front two. I think Wilmot looked pretty good as a cb stand in wingback. Not a disaster at all. From the off they pushed their wingers and full backs right up to not give either our WB any space to play, teams have recognised that where we start plays and that it’s a threat. I don’t think we could play Duhaney as he wasn’t in the named squad, he could only be brought into the bench as emergency once we’d chosen replacement from the bench.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Oct 24, 2021 8:24:11 GMT
Was hat combination would you have in there Rob? Allen, Thompson and Vrancic is what I’d go for mate. 2 out of those 3 can't pass wind let alone a football
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Post by gingerninja on Oct 24, 2021 8:35:15 GMT
It's weird how after a string of a few poor results expectations change. Suddenly matches against, Cardiff, Blackpool and Luton go from an easy run, into wholly tougher propositions. Hopefully Stoke fans will not suddenly expect 9 points from 9, they are all going to require much more solid performances than the last 3.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 24, 2021 8:38:09 GMT
Allen, Thompson and Vrancic is what I’d go for mate. 2 out of those 3 can't pass wind let alone a football Thompson’s passing has improved. All we need them to do is keep it simple and be disciplined. They don’t need to spray it 15 yards.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 24, 2021 8:39:05 GMT
If Smith had played yesterday we would have won that Wilmot at right wingback was a disaster and I have no idea what MON was thinking given we had Duhaney on the bench. Both their goals game down that side and Wilmott failed to put a single decent ball into the front two. I think Wilmot looked pretty good as a cb stand in wingback. Not a disaster at all. From the off they pushed their wingers and full backs right up to not give either our WB any space to play, teams have recognised that where we start plays and that it’s a threat. I don’t think we could play Duhaney as he wasn’t in the named squad, he could only be brought into the bench as emergency once we’d chosen replacement from the bench. Why wasn’t Duhaney on the bench in the first place?
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