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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jun 4, 2021 10:34:31 GMT
What is obvious from this thread though is how nice it is to see good healthy debate without the thread turning into abuse and wild accusations. Long may it continue. Must admit when I started this thread I was a bit dubious as to how it would be received, but as you say, how refreshing to have a healthy debate with interesting comments and ideas coming in from all sides. For me, I don't like to hear the booing and come the start of the season, when hopefully all can attend, I think the situation will only deteriorate and cause friction which nobody wants to endure so perhaps taking the knee should be ended. That said, the Kick it Out campaign must really up it's game and build on the foundations that the BLM movement has built. There's been some really welcoming idea's already put forward on this thread alone so let's hope for a good outcome. Definitely. We all need to learn to make our points without descending into abuse. Totally counter productive and most significantly teaches our kids absolutely nothing. There is always common ground if we are prepared to try hard enough instead of retreating to our various echo chambers.
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Post by thevoid on Jun 4, 2021 12:10:24 GMT
“BLM” is a genius name really considering it’s a political movement with some clear policies. So if you strongly disagree with the idea of defunding police etc, and then it becomes “oh so you DON’T believe BLM then huh!?”. It’s very cynical and deliberate. Do Black Lives Matter? Obviously...find me someone who doesn’t agree with that statement in a vacuum. Fuck BLM the political movement though. (Interestingly I can’t type Black Lives Matter without my iPhone auto capitalising) Exactly, they were very savvy in picking that name for the reasons you said- criticise an organisation with such a name and you're racist by default. I'm sure the fact that their full mission statement wasn't released until after the crowdfunding money rolled in was purely coincidental too.... They've also expressed their solidarity with Palestine which, while this may seem a just cause to many, recent pro-Palestinian feeling has seen a spike in anti-Semitism in the UK. As such, it stands to reason that there are better social justice movements that Sky/the FA can align themselves with, such as Kick It Out. After all, inclusivity is one of the key watchwords of the day, is it not?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 4, 2021 13:43:13 GMT
I think part of the trouble is that some people ( often white) will NEVER be satisfied unless there is division.....which is NOT the same as saying that racism doesn't exist, or doesn't matter because it doesn't affect me. Perhaps we need to ask what kind of society ( in the uk) are we trying to achieve and how do we get there. Personally I prefer the ML king approach ( and I do know that there were also race riots) ....in his " I have a dream " speech he talks about his black children holding hands with little white children......that vision seems to me to be missing from the recent wave of protests and in fact seems to be unacceptable.....therexseems to be a need for division and guilt.....perhaps forgiveness and love are needed. It needs to cut both ways though. Hard to see a huge take up for'forgiveness' when black footballers are still getting dozens of racist messages on social media, and if we're going to talk about 'forgiveness and love' then there equally has to be an effort on both sides to understand the other's position - part of which would be listening to the players themselves and what their interpretation of the message is, rather than just sticking fingers in ears and screaming something something Marxists. Well, it depends what you mean by effort. I think most people, and particularly working class people just get on with their lives, are not overtly racist nor political and the UK as a whole is generally tolerant. There is enough to do with coping with everyday issues....Which doesn't mean that I am not aware of institutional or " unaware racism". I think the current " campaign" is divisive, and gives current white British people little way forward without " guilt" and the next generation will be the same. And this is not to underestimate, devalue racism and its impact. You mention Marxism, I think those who think they are on the current left NEED victims and have lost sight of current humanity and are actually doing little to bring communities together and in fact are doing the opposite...if " no justice, no peace" is the mantra, fair enough.....I just think it is badly letting people down. As some have said constantly bringing the issue at the start of football matches is counterproductive and entrenches division....that is NOT the same as saying " ignore racism/ don't see it and it will self evidently go away"
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 4, 2021 14:08:57 GMT
It needs to cut both ways though. Hard to see a huge take up for'forgiveness' when black footballers are still getting dozens of racist messages on social media, and if we're going to talk about 'forgiveness and love' then there equally has to be an effort on both sides to understand the other's position - part of which would be listening to the players themselves and what their interpretation of the message is, rather than just sticking fingers in ears and screaming something something Marxists. Well, it depends what you mean by effort. I think most people, and particularly working class people just get on with their lives, are not overtly racist nor political and the UK as a whole is generally tolerant. There is enough to cope with coping with everyday issues.Which doesn't mean that I am not aware of institutional or " unaware racism. I think the current " campaign" is divisive, and gives current white British people little way forward without " guilt" and the next generation will be the same. And this is not to underestimate, devalue racism and its impact. You mention Marxism, I think those who think they are on the current left NEED victims and have lost sight of current humanity and are actually doing little to bring communities together and on fact doing the opposite...if " no justice, no peace" is the mantra, fair enough.....I just think it is badly letting people down. As some have said constantly bringing the issue at the start of football matches is counterproductive and entrenched division....that is NOT the same as saying " ignore racism/ don't see it and it will self evidently go away" But again you're ignoring the players themselves and their experiences and feelings regarding it. Should they not be considered, is their humanity not worth taking into account as well as the white British people you mention?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 4, 2021 14:19:31 GMT
Well, it depends what you mean by effort. I think most people, and particularly working class people just get on with their lives, are not overtly racist nor political and the UK as a whole is generally tolerant. There is enough to cope with coping with everyday issues. Which doesn't mean that I am not aware of institutional or " unaware racism. I think the current " campaign" is divisive, and gives current white British people little way forward without " guilt" and the next generation will be the same. And this is not to underestimate, devalue racism and its impact. You mention Marxism, I think those who think they are on the current left NEED victims and have lost sight of current humanity and are actually doing little to bring communities together and on fact doing the opposite...if " no justice, no peace" is the mantra, fair enough.....I just think it is badly letting people down. As some have said constantly bringing the issue at the start of football matches is counterproductive and entrenched division....that is NOT the same as saying " ignore racism/ don't see it and it will self evidently go away" But again you're ignoring the players themselves and their experiences and feelings regarding it. Should they not be considered, is their humanity not worth taking into account as well as the white British people you mention? I don't think I am ignoring them at all. Taking the knee or not doesn't equate to recognising a person's humanity....that is part of the problem... " conform, take the knee, if you don't you are not one of us, you are one of them...a racist".... I think that is how it is interpreted ...and I think the cultural meanings and origins of "taking the knee" have been discussed..... I think it has a completely different context and history in the UK compared to the USA... I think Starmer will come to regret his office photograph of him " submitting" It is wider than the current players/ the fans are just as important at football matches and football is a global platform. I think it is counterproductive, divisive and not necessarily the best policy if we genuinely want to achieve change, simply because I don't think it is a good idea to bring politics at the forefront of football/relaxation/leisure pursuits/sport. anyway I don't mind disagreeing with you on this, we'll see how it pans out.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 4, 2021 14:54:03 GMT
But again you're ignoring the players themselves and their experiences and feelings regarding it. Should they not be considered, is their humanity not worth taking into account as well as the white British people you mention? I don't think I am ignoring them at all. Taking the knee or not doesn't equate to recognising a person's humanity....that is part of the problem... " conform, take the knee, if you don't you are not one of us, you are one of them...a racist".... I think that is how it is interpreted ...and I think the cultural meanings and origins of "taking the knee" have been discussed..... I think it has a completely different context and history in the UK compared to the USA... I think Starmer will come to regret his office photograph of him " submitting" It is wider than the current players/ the fans are just as important at football matches and football is a global platform. I think it is counterproductive, divisive and not necessarily the best policy if we genuinely want to achieve change, simply because I don't think it is a good idea to bring politics at the forefront of football/relaxation/leisure pursuits/sport. anyway I don't mind disagreeing with you on this, we'll see how it pans out. With respect mate, you're not. You're projecting an assumed stance rather than what a number have actually said, using actual words, that it's about, which is a show of support for racial equality and against racism. No more, no less.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 4, 2021 15:34:02 GMT
I don't think I am ignoring them at all. Taking the knee or not doesn't equate to recognising a person's humanity....that is part of the problem... " conform, take the knee, if you don't you are not one of us, you are one of them...a racist".... I think that is how it is interpreted ...and I think the cultural meanings and origins of "taking the knee" have been discussed..... I think it has a completely different context and history in the UK compared to the USA... I think Starmer will come to regret his office photograph of him " submitting" It is wider than the current players/ the fans are just as important at football matches and football is a global platform. I think it is counterproductive, divisive and not necessarily the best policy if we genuinely want to achieve change, simply because I don't think it is a good idea to bring politics at the forefront of football/relaxation/leisure pursuits/sport. anyway I don't mind disagreeing with you on this, we'll see how it pans out. With respect mate, you're not. You're projecting an assumed stance rather than what a number have actually said, using actual words, that it's about, which is a show of support for racial equality and against racism. No more, no less. I don't really understand your point Toxic. But I don't think you need to nor should be expected to take the knee to show support for racial equality. You can support racial equality without taking the knee. You can also oppose taking the knee on the basis that it is associated with wider political movements, it is political and because you might believe that politics should be kept out of sport...and because you might believe that it is actually more divisive than positive....which is what I do believe. But with respect, I respect your different opinion
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 4, 2021 16:03:17 GMT
With respect mate, you're not. You're projecting an assumed stance rather than what a number have actually said, using actual words, that it's about, which is a show of support for racial equality and against racism. No more, no less. I don't really understand your point Toxic. But I don't think you need to nor should be expected to take the knee to show support for racial equality. You can support racial equality without taking the knee. You can also oppose taking the knee on the basis that it is associated with wider political movements, it is political and because you might believe that politics should be kept out of sport...and because you might believe that it is actually more divisive than positive....which is what I do believe. But with respect, I respect your different opinion So the players who DO want to take the knee and have said as much, and who have said that their gesture is merely a display of solidarity against racism, nothing to do with Marxism or the wider goals of the BLM organisation, they should just pipe down, should they?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 4, 2021 16:30:39 GMT
I don't really understand your point Toxic. But I don't think you need to nor should be expected to take the knee to show support for racial equality. You can support racial equality without taking the knee. You can also oppose taking the knee on the basis that it is associated with wider political movements, it is political and because you might believe that politics should be kept out of sport...and because you might believe that it is actually more divisive than positive....which is what I do believe. But with respect, I respect your different opinion So the players who DO want to take the knee and have said as much, and who have said that their gesture is merely a display of solidarity against racism, nothing to do with Marxism or the wider goals of the BLM organisation, they should just pipe down, should they? I've already given my opinion. I don't think the gesture has a place in football. I think it is divisive. I think it is political. I think it is open to different interpretations and misinterpretation. I think some people are coerced into conforming...it is difficult to go against the crowd on a particular issue when clearly " black lives do matter" You use the words "pipe down"....I don't think it should have a part in sport....if that amounts to the same thing , yes . I can't be any clearer.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 4, 2021 16:42:01 GMT
So the players who DO want to take the knee and have said as much, and who have said that their gesture is merely a display of solidarity against racism, nothing to do with Marxism or the wider goals of the BLM organisation, they should just pipe down, should they? I've already given my opinion. I don't think the gesture has a place in football. I think it is divisive. I think it is political. I think it is open to different interpretations and misinterpretation. I think some people are coerced into conforming...it is difficult to go against the crowd on a particular issue when clearly " black lives do matter" You use the words "pipe down"....I don't think it should have a part in sport....if that amounts to the same thing , yes . I can't be any clearer. But the are players who have publicly stated what the gesture means to them, so clearly, they haven’t been coerced. This sounds an awful lot like a white bloke telling black people how they should and shouldn’t show solidarity against racism. Happy to get rid of anything from football that means different things to different people and could be construed as political though, including the national anthem and the poppy stuff.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jun 4, 2021 16:45:32 GMT
I've already given my opinion. I don't think the gesture has a place in football. I think it is divisive. I think it is political. I think it is open to different interpretations and misinterpretation. I think some people are coerced into conforming...it is difficult to go against the crowd on a particular issue when clearly " black lives do matter" You use the words "pipe down"....I don't think it should have a part in sport....if that amounts to the same thing , yes . I can't be any clearer. But the are players who have publicly stated what the gesture means to them, so clearly, they haven’t been coerced. This sounds an awful lot like a white bloke telling black people how they should and shouldn’t show solidarity against racism. Happy to get rid of anything from football that means different things to different people and could be construed as political though, including the national anthem and the poppy stuff. The poppy stuff🙄
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 4, 2021 16:48:31 GMT
But the are players who have publicly stated what the gesture means to them, so clearly, they haven’t been coerced. This sounds an awful lot like a white bloke telling black people how they should and shouldn’t show solidarity against racism. Happy to get rid of anything from football that means different things to different people and could be construed as political though, including the national anthem and the poppy stuff. The poppy stuff🙄 Go on...
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jun 4, 2021 16:48:43 GMT
I don't really understand your point Toxic. But I don't think you need to nor should be expected to take the knee to show support for racial equality. You can support racial equality without taking the knee. You can also oppose taking the knee on the basis that it is associated with wider political movements, it is political and because you might believe that politics should be kept out of sport...and because you might believe that it is actually more divisive than positive....which is what I do believe. But with respect, I respect your different opinion So the players who DO want to take the knee and have said as much, and who have said that their gesture is merely a display of solidarity against racism, nothing to do with Marxism or the wider goals of the BLM organisation, they should just pipe down, should they? Here's another way of looking at it, what relevance are the following to Stoke City FC; George Floyd Colin Kaepernik Violence of American Police Segregation The American Civil Rights Movement A political organisation named BLM disguised as a race relations outfit Critical race theory Dismantling Capitalism Disruption of the nuclear family And finally in recognition of all the above points, taking a knee? In my opinion no relevance whatsoever. So I fully understand those who are a bit frustrated having to watch their players taking a knee before every match. It's all political and your average fan just wants to go to the game and watch their team play. And lets face it depending who you support that in itself is stressful enough for a satdee afternoon. All of this began as a divisive issue and it has continually got worse. It needs binning off now.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 4, 2021 16:52:54 GMT
So the players who DO want to take the knee and have said as much, and who have said that their gesture is merely a display of solidarity against racism, nothing to do with Marxism or the wider goals of the BLM organisation, they should just pipe down, should they? Here's another way of looking at it, what relevance are the following to Stoke City FC; George Floyd Colin Kaepernik Violence of American Police Segregation The American Civil Rights Movement A political organisation named BLM disguised as a race relations outfit Critical race theory Dismantling Capitalism Disruption of the nuclear family And finally in recognition of all the above points, taking a knee? In my opinion no relevance whatsoever. So I fully understand those who are a bit frustrated having to watch their players taking a knee before every match. It's all political and your average fan just wants to go to the game and watch their team play. And lets face it depending who you support that in itself is stressful enough for a satdee afternoon. All of this began as a divisive issue and it has continually got worse. It needs binning off now. Again mate... The players themselves, the ones who have enthused about it publicly, the ones who have said they’re hurt by the booing, they aren’t taking a knee for anything other than a show of solidarity. That is the thing that I think is that these point being wilfully ignored because it’s inconvenient.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 4, 2021 16:56:43 GMT
I've already given my opinion. I don't think the gesture has a place in football. I think it is divisive. I think it is political. I think it is open to different interpretations and misinterpretation. I think some people are coerced into conforming...it is difficult to go against the crowd on a particular issue when clearly " black lives do matter" You use the words "pipe down"....I don't think it should have a part in sport....if that amounts to the same thing , yes . I can't be any clearer. But the are players who have publicly stated what the gesture means to them, so clearly, they haven’t been coerced. This sounds an awful lot like a white bloke telling black people how they should and shouldn’t show solidarity against racism. Happy to get rid of anything from football that means different things to different people and could be construed as political though, including the national anthem and the poppy stuff. As I say, we will have to disagree. Some Black people are against taking the knee. I expected your second paragraph. For me poppy day and the National anthem are and have been accepted as part of our nationhood, bringing the nation together. I'm a bit of a pragmatist...I don't think it is useful for the country now to beat itself up over poppy day/ white poppies...I think up until very recently it is clearly understood by the vast majority of the nation to be about remembrance of those who have sacrificed their lives for our freedom. Accepted by all major political persuasions until recently. I don't think we , or at least, I, want any more issues about our identity....just some common understanding and togetherness.....some of course some will come along and say that the national anthem excludes some, harks back to Colonialism etc....I don't think most see it like that( I've no objections if the actual anthem is changed though).
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Post by PotterLog on Jun 4, 2021 16:58:45 GMT
I've already given my opinion. I don't think the gesture has a place in football. I think it is divisive. I think it is political. I think it is open to different interpretations and misinterpretation. I think some people are coerced into conforming...it is difficult to go against the crowd on a particular issue when clearly " black lives do matter" You use the words "pipe down"....I don't think it should have a part in sport....if that amounts to the same thing , yes . I can't be any clearer. But the are players who have publicly stated what the gesture means to them, so clearly, they haven’t been coerced. This sounds an awful lot like a white bloke telling black people how they should and shouldn’t show solidarity against racism. Happy to get rid of anything from football that means different things to different people and could be construed as political though, including the national anthem and the poppy stuff. It's a symbolic act that carries connotations and assumptions about society, and, by extension, the individuals in the crowd bearing witness to it. The fact that individual players have stated what it means to them is a fair enough point, and their motivations for doing it should be viewed charitably, but it's not going to take away the broader associations and implications of the act itself, which is what people justifiably object to.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jun 4, 2021 16:59:02 GMT
Here's another way of looking at it, what relevance are the following to Stoke City FC; George Floyd Colin Kaepernik Violence of American Police Segregation The American Civil Rights Movement A political organisation named BLM disguised as a race relations outfit Critical race theory Dismantling Capitalism Disruption of the nuclear family And finally in recognition of all the above points, taking a knee? In my opinion no relevance whatsoever. So I fully understand those who are a bit frustrated having to watch their players taking a knee before every match. It's all political and your average fan just wants to go to the game and watch their team play. And lets face it depending who you support that in itself is stressful enough for a satdee afternoon. All of this began as a divisive issue and it has continually got worse. It needs binning off now. Again mate... The players themselves, the ones who have enthused about it publicly, the ones who have said they’re hurt by the booing, they aren’t taking a knee for anything other than a show of solidarity. That is the thing that I think is that these point being wilfully ignored because it’s inconvenient. It is not being ignored. What is being ignored is how this all started on the wrong foot with the allegiance with an overtly political organisation that many people savvy enough had serious objections too. The narrative may well have been quietly changed over 15 months but the fact remains the association with BLM was political and wrong. To change the narrative and now claim those who object to it must somehow be racist is despicable and yet again is divisive. To use modern parlance lets do something inclusive that we can all support like use Kick It Out. I don't recall there ever being any opposition to that organisation.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 4, 2021 16:59:24 GMT
But the are players who have publicly stated what the gesture means to them, so clearly, they haven’t been coerced. This sounds an awful lot like a white bloke telling black people how they should and shouldn’t show solidarity against racism. Happy to get rid of anything from football that means different things to different people and could be construed as political though, including the national anthem and the poppy stuff. As I say, we will have to disagree. Some Black people are against taking the knee. I expected your second paragraph. For me poppy day and the National anthem are and have been accepted as part of our nationhood, bringing the nation together. I'm a bit of a pragmatist...I don't think itbis useful for the country now to beat itself up over poppy day/ white poppies...I think up until very recently it is clearly understood by the vast majority of the nation to be about remembrance of those who have sacrificed their lives for our freedom. Accepted by all major political persuasions until recently. I don't think we , or at least, I, want any more issues about our identity....just some common understanding and togetherness.....send of course some will come along and say that the national anthem excludes some, harks back to Colonialism etc....I don't think most see it like that( I've no objections if the actual anthem is changed though). That’s how it’s perceived by you though. Maybe have a crack at empathy, try and understand those who see it differently?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 4, 2021 17:02:21 GMT
As I say, we will have to disagree. Some Black people are against taking the knee. I expected your second paragraph. For me poppy day and the National anthem are and have been accepted as part of our nationhood, bringing the nation together. I'm a bit of a pragmatist...I don't think itbis useful for the country now to beat itself up over poppy day/ white poppies...I think up until very recently it is clearly understood by the vast majority of the nation to be about remembrance of those who have sacrificed their lives for our freedom. Accepted by all major political persuasions until recently. I don't think we , or at least, I, want any more issues about our identity....just some common understanding and togetherness.....send of course some will come along and say that the national anthem excludes some, harks back to Colonialism etc....I don't think most see it like that( I've no objections if the actual anthem is changed though). That’s how it’s perceived by you though. Maybe have a crack at empathy, try and understand those who see it differently? I'll have a go if you will
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 4, 2021 17:03:46 GMT
Again mate... The players themselves, the ones who have enthused about it publicly, the ones who have said they’re hurt by the booing, they aren’t taking a knee for anything other than a show of solidarity. That is the thing that I think is that these point being wilfully ignored because it’s inconvenient. It is not being ignored. What is being ignored is how this all started on the wrong foot with the allegiance with an overtly political organisation that many people savvy enough had serious objections too. The narrative may well have been quietly changed over 15 months but the fact remains the association with BLM was political and wrong. To change the narrative and now claim those who object to it must somehow be racist is despicable and yet again is divisive. To use modern parlance lets do something inclusive that we can all support like use Kick It Out. I don't recall there ever being any opposition to that organisation. What you’re saying is that nuance isn’t possible. That people are incapable of grasping that because it originated as one thing it can’t be adopted and adapted as another. I don’t agree. People should be able to do that and it’s not a matter of not being able, it’s a matter of being unwilling. The Marxist stuff is a convenient cloud to hide behind. If people wanted to understand, they could. To not agree is one thing, to boo another. To decide 10 seconds’ mild inconvenience at having to see a few blokes kneeling outweighs players’ experiences of racism is pretty poor form, in my opinion.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 4, 2021 17:08:21 GMT
That’s how it’s perceived by you though. Maybe have a crack at empathy, try and understand those who see it differently? I'll have a go if you will I have done. I can see both sides. I always wear a poppy, my grandad fought in the war. I also think maybe there are better ways of paying respects than emblazoning poppies absolutely everywhere like some kind of weird military Christmas and would have no problem whatsoever if it was taken out of football, something it has little to do with in 2021. I can see why people take issue with the BLM movement. I just see the value or need to boo and find it very unfair and disrespectful to those players who do want to show solidarity and take a stand against racism. Maybe not everyone who boos is a racist, but they sure seem to have a bigger problem with those against it than those who perpetrate it.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 4, 2021 17:11:48 GMT
I'll have a go if you will I have done. I can see both sides. I always wear a poppy, my grandad fought in the war. I also think maybe there are better ways of paying respects than emblazoning poppies absolutely everywhere like some kind of weird military Christmas and would have no problem whatsoever if it was taken out of football, something it has little to do with in 2021. I can see why people take issue with the BLM movement. I just see the value or need to boo and find it very unfair and disrespectful to those players who do want to show solidarity and take a stand against racism. Maybe not everyone who boos is a racist, but they sure seem to have a bigger problem with those against it than those who perpetrate it. I also believe that I have done so. I don't particularly want to judge the booers or the non booers, or judge anyone....but your last statement does in fact hint at the divisive nature of the symbolic act..."maybe not everyone who boos is a racist"....
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jun 4, 2021 17:12:07 GMT
It is not being ignored. What is being ignored is how this all started on the wrong foot with the allegiance with an overtly political organisation that many people savvy enough had serious objections too. The narrative may well have been quietly changed over 15 months but the fact remains the association with BLM was political and wrong. To change the narrative and now claim those who object to it must somehow be racist is despicable and yet again is divisive. To use modern parlance lets do something inclusive that we can all support like use Kick It Out. I don't recall there ever being any opposition to that organisation. What you’re saying is that nuance isn’t possible. That people are incapable of grasping that because it originated as one thing it can’t be adopted and adapted as another. I don’t agree. People should be able to do that and it’s not a matter of not being able, it’s a matter of being unwilling. The Marxist stuff is a convenient cloud to hide behind. If people wanted to understand, they could. To not agree is one thing, to boo another. To decide 10 seconds’ mild inconvenience at having to see a few blokes kneeling outweighs players’ experiences of racism is pretty poor form, in my opinion. Fair enough we disagree. But do we have to disagree with binning this off because it is evidently divisive and using something non divisive like Kick It Out and coming up with our own British ideas instead of importing American group think and knee bending? Or would you rather flog a divisive dead horse and keep the argument going? Keeping the argument going does wonders for the coffers of BLM don't you know.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 4, 2021 17:16:31 GMT
What you’re saying is that nuance isn’t possible. That people are incapable of grasping that because it originated as one thing it can’t be adopted and adapted as another. I don’t agree. People should be able to do that and it’s not a matter of not being able, it’s a matter of being unwilling. The Marxist stuff is a convenient cloud to hide behind. If people wanted to understand, they could. To not agree is one thing, to boo another. To decide 10 seconds’ mild inconvenience at having to see a few blokes kneeling outweighs players’ experiences of racism is pretty poor form, in my opinion. Fair enough we disagree. But do we have to disagree with binning this off because it is evidently divisive and using something non divisive like Kick It Out and coming up with our own British ideas instead of importing American group think and knee bending? Or would you rather flog a divisive dead horse and keep the argument going? Keeping the argument going does wonders for the coffers of BLM don't you know. I don’t think it’s really for us to say if it stays or goes. If Kick It Out initiated an anti-gesture pre-match that wasn’t associated with BLM, do you think it wouldn’t be booed?
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jun 4, 2021 17:18:05 GMT
Fair enough we disagree. But do we have to disagree with binning this off because it is evidently divisive and using something non divisive like Kick It Out and coming up with our own British ideas instead of importing American group think and knee bending? Or would you rather flog a divisive dead horse and keep the argument going? Keeping the argument going does wonders for the coffers of BLM don't you know. I don’t think it’s really for us to say if it stays or goes. If Kick It Out initiated an anti-gesture pre-match that wasn’t associated with BLM, do you think it wouldn’t be booed? Undoubtedly
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Post by PotterLog on Jun 4, 2021 17:18:54 GMT
Fair enough we disagree. But do we have to disagree with binning this off because it is evidently divisive and using something non divisive like Kick It Out and coming up with our own British ideas instead of importing American group think and knee bending? Or would you rather flog a divisive dead horse and keep the argument going? Keeping the argument going does wonders for the coffers of BLM don't you know. I don’t think it’s really for us to say if it stays or goes. If Kick It Out initiated an anti-gesture pre-match that wasn’t associated with BLM, do you think it wouldn’t be booed? Is that a serious question? Kick It Out have been constantly doing highly visible gestures against racism in the game for about twenty years and there's never been so much as a peep of opposition. There's a reason for that.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 4, 2021 17:21:33 GMT
I don’t think it’s really for us to say if it stays or goes. If Kick It Out initiated an anti-gesture pre-match that wasn’t associated with BLM, do you think it wouldn’t be booed? Undoubtedly I think we’d have the exact same arguments and the exact same outcome. It would be seen as ‘political’ and there would be booing.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jun 4, 2021 17:23:20 GMT
What was it Tyler was saying before every game when players took the knee a while back? “It’s not a choice, it’s a mandate”. Not the best way to encourage fans to support the cause.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jun 4, 2021 17:23:59 GMT
Fair enough we disagree. But do we have to disagree with binning this off because it is evidently divisive and using something non divisive like Kick It Out and coming up with our own British ideas instead of importing American group think and knee bending? Or would you rather flog a divisive dead horse and keep the argument going? Keeping the argument going does wonders for the coffers of BLM don't you know. I don’t think it’s really for us to say if it stays or goes. If Kick It Out initiated an anti-gesture pre-match that wasn’t associated with BLM, do you think it wouldn’t be booed? I think it is for "us" to say whether it stays or goes, or it should be in a functioning democratic country. Otherwise we are having things forced upon us. I think if Kick It Out came up with some genuine gestures or means of people showing support for an anti racism message it would be welcomed by a majority. The danger of this BLM instigated knee bending is the longer it goes on the more the real racists will fuel racist issues and potentially drag more idiots in which risks future movements working This is why I am keen for KIO to act quick and take the issue forward in an inclusive way that the majority can support.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jun 4, 2021 17:24:07 GMT
I think we’d have the exact same arguments and the exact same outcome. It would be seen as ‘political’ and there would be booing. Codswallop, it’s been proven for years.
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