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Post by scfc75 on May 26, 2021 7:04:17 GMT
It was a mistake to try and take us higher?? Typical fucking “Little old Stoke” attitude! One thing that I really liked about Hughes when he arrived was that instead of Pulis’ “we have to manage expectations”, Hughes had the balls to raise our expectations and proved that you don’t have to play shit football to get results! What were your expectations for the club in the EPL? Consistent Title challengers, Champions league entrants, Top six placings, Regular FA cup finalists etc How would you manage supporter expectations - V - realistic continual progress/EPL status? Would you prefer EPL or EFL status? Don't hold back It’s not one or the other though, is it? You’re suggesting you either suck it up in the mid to lower reaches of the premier league, or if you try to ‘push on’ you’ll get relegated. That’s nonsense. Wolves, West Ham, Leicester, Burnley and Southampton have all spent recent years in the Championship (or lower) and at least one of them have finished 7th or higher in each of the last 7 seasons. Doing it consistently is incredibly difficult but does that mean nobody should try? Should every other club outside the top 6 just do the bare minimum to limp to 40pts, then be thankful to just be there?
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Post by senojbor on May 26, 2021 8:29:30 GMT
If we can learn anything about the clubs fall from grace it's the fact that the people in charge were too slow act when things when started to go wrong. It never was the fault of any manager it was the awful decisions made by the club. But anyway it's no good looking back. With the finances that 'should' be available we shouldn't be outdone by the Barnsleys or Brentfords of this league. It's not good enough.
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Post by owdestokie2 on May 26, 2021 12:14:25 GMT
What were your expectations for the club in the EPL? Consistent Title challengers, Champions league entrants, Top six placings, Regular FA cup finalists etc How would you manage supporter expectations - V - realistic continual progress/EPL status? Would you prefer EPL or EFL status? Don't hold back It’s not one or the other though, is it? You’re suggesting you either suck it up in the mid to lower reaches of the premier league, or if you try to ‘push on’ you’ll get relegated. That’s nonsense. Wolves, West Ham, Leicester, Burnley and Southampton have all spent recent years in the Championship (or lower) and at least one of them have finished 7th or higher in each of the last 7 seasons. Doing it consistently is incredibly difficult but does that mean nobody should try? Should every other club outside the top 6 just do the bare minimum to limp to 40pts, then be thankful to just be there? Why not answer the specific questions asked? The inference of your comments reflect upon Pulis’s reign. If I’m wrong I sincerely apologise. The 40 points stance by Pulis was no more than a public statement in relation to a calculated “minimum” target of points to retain EPL status. There are clear differences between the terms target and ambition.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 26, 2021 12:44:14 GMT
It’s not one or the other though, is it? You’re suggesting you either suck it up in the mid to lower reaches of the premier league, or if you try to ‘push on’ you’ll get relegated. That’s nonsense. Wolves, West Ham, Leicester, Burnley and Southampton have all spent recent years in the Championship (or lower) and at least one of them have finished 7th or higher in each of the last 7 seasons. Doing it consistently is incredibly difficult but does that mean nobody should try? Should every other club outside the top 6 just do the bare minimum to limp to 40pts, then be thankful to just be there? Why not answer the specific questions asked? The inference of your comments reflect upon Pulis’s reign. If I’m wrong I sincerely apologise. The 40 points stance by Pulis was no more than a public statement in relation to a calculated “minimum” target of points to retain EPL status. There are clear differences between the terms target and ambition. So what were your expectations? And what expectations did the fans have that in your view were not realistic?
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Post by owdestokie2 on May 26, 2021 18:58:26 GMT
Why not answer the specific questions asked? The inference of your comments reflect upon Pulis’s reign. If I’m wrong I sincerely apologise. The 40 points stance by Pulis was no more than a public statement in relation to a calculated “minimum” target of points to retain EPL status. There are clear differences between the terms target and ambition. So what were your expectations? And what expectations did the fans have that in your view were not realistic? My Expectations? Like a lot of friends and season ticket holders for many years (2, 3 and 4 decades) our realistic expectations (hopes) were; EPL status, An opportunity of watching world class footballers live at the Brit. Not restricted to MOTD Having the potential to give the big guns a bloody nose on a wet and windy night in November With luck have decent cup runs with the potential of a visit to Wembley Apologies for lacking in ambition Also being disliked by the media gave us a kick
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Post by generationex on May 26, 2021 19:01:04 GMT
I don’t know about Owd but my expectation in 2009 was immediate relegation.
The fact we achieved that hardest of goals - stability in the premier league - makes the bitterness attached to our collapse worse.
I hope our catastrophe was not driven by the owners seeking to manage populist dreams. Ultimately it doesn’t matter what you say you want to do but what you actually do. Signing the biggest collection of losers in football history was the outcome. We still don’t know why that happened.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 26, 2021 19:08:17 GMT
I don’t know about Owd but my expectation in 2009 was immediate relegation. The fact we achieved that hardest of goals - stability in the premier league - makes the bitterness attached to our collapse worse. I hope our catastrophe was not driven by the owners seeking to manage populist dreams. Ultimately it doesn’t matter what you say you want to do but what you actually do. Signing the biggest collection of losers in football history was the outcome. We still don’t know why that happened. Again, what do you mean by ‘populist dreams’? What, specifically?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 26, 2021 19:10:19 GMT
So what were your expectations? And what expectations did the fans have that in your view were not realistic? My Expectations? Like a lot of friends and season ticket holders for many years (2, 3 and 4 decades) our realistic expectations (hopes) were; EPL status, An opportunity of watching world class footballers live at the Brit. Not restricted to MOTD Having the potential to give the big guns a bloody nose on a wet and windy night in November With luck have decent cup runs with the potential of a visit to Wembley Apologies for lacking in ambition Also being disliked by the media gave us a kick Right, and so how do those expectations differ from those unrealistic ones you perceive other supporters had? I’m not sure at all what your argument is Owde?
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Post by generationex on May 27, 2021 21:45:51 GMT
I don’t know about Owd but my expectation in 2009 was immediate relegation. The fact we achieved that hardest of goals - stability in the premier league - makes the bitterness attached to our collapse worse. I hope our catastrophe was not driven by the owners seeking to manage populist dreams. Ultimately it doesn’t matter what you say you want to do but what you actually do. Signing the biggest collection of losers in football history was the outcome. We still don’t know why that happened. Again, what do you mean by ‘populist dreams’? What, specifically? The idea that we should spend more, more names, more ‘ambition’, the trite ‘we’re little old Stoke’ rhetoric. The idea that if we just dream bigger we can achieve more. Life’s not that simple. The signing of Jesé was a great example. The fact that the relegation team was packed with Champions League semi-finalists is an example too. The problem for small clubs is that those sort of players are here for the wrong reason, usually their own interests. Our Turkish collection is an example. In truth Shaq and Arnie only worked because their short term interests collided with ours for a short time. I think Bojan could have been different. Fans like those sort of signings I know, but that’s why fans are not professional football managers. John Coates is a fan (thank God) but those 5 year contracts were to appease a fan base rather than a decision based on sound judgement. With clubs like Stoke the players that work best are the ones that buy in to the area or are born of the city. The real legends - Matthews, Banks, Smith, Conroy, Shawcross, Fuller, etc. All supporters want ‘ambition’ but watch the Wolves implosion if they fail to get the basics right (hopefully!)
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 27, 2021 22:04:59 GMT
Again, what do you mean by ‘populist dreams’? What, specifically? The idea that we should spend more, more names, more ‘ambition’, the trite ‘we’re little old Stoke’ rhetoric. The idea that if we just dream bigger we can achieve more. Life’s not that simple. The signing of Jesé was a great example. The fact that the relegation team was packed with Champions League semi-finalists is an example too. The problem for small clubs is that those sort of players are here for the wrong reason, usually their own interests. Our Turkish collection is an example. In truth Shaq and Arnie only worked because their short term interests collided with ours for a short time. I think Bojan could have been different. Fans like those sort of signings I know, but that’s why fans are not professional football managers. John Coates is a fan (thank God) but those 5 year contracts were to appease a fan base rather than a decision based on sound judgement. With clubs like Stoke the players that work best are the ones that buy in to the area or are born of the city. The real legends - Matthews, Banks, Smith, Conroy, Shawcross, Fuller, etc. All supporters want ‘ambition’ but watch the Wolves implosion if they fail to get the basics right (hopefully!) I don’t think that’s what happened was it? Weren’t Arnie, Bojan and Shaq to an extent just like European dogs’ home jobs, only one of whom was expensive? Jese was another that didn’t work out. The same thing happened under Pulis, there were plenty of sticker book ‘names’ like Owen and Gudjohnsen that didn’t work and there were ones that did. Equally in the first few Hughes seasons we spent very little and had one of the lower wage budgets in the league and yet improved our league position. Our downfall didn’t come from overreaching or getting ideas above our station, it came from purely from bad recruitment, recruiting the wrong players in the wrong areas and neglecting other areas.
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Post by generationex on May 27, 2021 22:36:03 GMT
I don’t think it’s about ‘ideas above our station’ I think it’s about the importance of the clubs judgement to gauge motivation/genuine interest.
Shak was always likely to be a good player that was vain enough to want to play and put himself in the window. The same with Arnie, although he had more obvious character defects which reflected the price.
I always felt only Bojan was a genuine MH ‘dogs home’ signing which I think would have paid dividends but for his injury which couldn’t be predicted.
I agree Pulis tried to appease some of the support with names, although I wonder whether Owen had a wider marketing motivation lead by Bet 365.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 28, 2021 5:16:27 GMT
I don’t think it’s about ‘ideas above our station’ I think it’s about the importance of the clubs judgement to gauge motivation/genuine interest. Shak was always likely to be a good player that was vain enough to want to play and put himself in the window. The same with Arnie, although he had more obvious character defects which reflected the price. I always felt only Bojan was a genuine MH ‘dogs home’ signing which I think would have paid dividends but for his injury which couldn’t be predicted. I agree Pulis tried to appease some of the support with names, although I wonder whether Owen had a wider marketing motivation lead by Bet 365. Arnie was pretty much the definition of a Dogs’ Home signing - player who’d seemed destined for big things at one time but whose career was heading in the wrong direction and was thus picked up for peanuts. I don’t think signing those players was anything to do with appeasing the support. Nobody was clamouring for superstar names at that time. Pulis did it (I think) because he’d been a lower league manager all his career and wanted to say he’d worked with big names - he’d tried to sign Bellamy in the binary season and signed Berger, Tuncay, Woodgate, Gudjohnsen etc even though he didn’t really know what to do with them. Owen was an extension of that, if he’d been forced to sign him he’d have made sure we knew about it, like he did with Triggy and Ziggy and with his games on deadline day over Shea’s work permit. Hughes I think also had a bit of a hard on for bringing ‘names’ to smaller clubs but seemed to fundamentally misunderstand the value of character to the fabric of those sides. In other words, both did it because they could.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on May 28, 2021 11:37:15 GMT
My two penneth.
Bielsa's done a fantastic job at Leeds, just as TP and MH did at Stoke.
MH delivered the best football I've seen at Stoke in over 50 years, and that includes the red & white tinted memories of my childhood 70s heroes.
The first half against Manchester City in 2015(?) was spell binding, breath taking football. Bojan and Shaqiri were drifting past the best the Premier League had to offer. Marko brilliant too breaking in to a centre forward position from the left. The best I've ever seen a Stoke side play.
I would have kept Hughes. (But with 20/20 hindsight, left the recruitment to somebody else) A big clear the air or re-bonding trip after the Cov debacle. He would have kept us up I'm sure. It may have only put off the inevitable. He would have gone at the end of that season and we've messed up 3 replacements since.
Don't post so much these days, but for what it's worth, I have high hopes for MON. It might take a year or two to get rid of some, but with our academy bearing fruit, the future looks bright.
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Post by Gods on May 28, 2021 12:59:38 GMT
My two penneth. Bielsa's done a fantastic job at Leeds, just as TP and MH did at Stoke. MH delivered the best football I've seen at Stoke in over 50 years, and that includes the red & white tinted memories of my childhood 70s heroes. The first half against Manchester City in 2015(?) was spell binding, breath taking football. Bojan and Shaqiri were drifting past the best the Premier League had to offer. Marko brilliant too breaking in to a centre forward position from the left. The best I've ever seen a Stoke side play. I would have kept Hughes. (But with 20/20 hindsight, left the recruitment to somebody else) A big clear the air or re-bonding trip after the Cov debacle. He would have kept us up I'm sure. It may have only put off the inevitable. He would have gone at the end of that season and we've messed up 3 replacements since. Don't post so much these days, but for what it's worth, I have high hopes for MON. It might take a year or two to get rid of some, but with our academy bearing fruit, the future looks bright. Excellent post, this is about where I'm at too.
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Post by TrentValePotter96 on May 28, 2021 15:40:24 GMT
The problem is we need as a fanbase to be more ambitious and not see ourselves as 'plucky little old Stoke'.
We have spent more than half of our league history in the top flight yet some are grateful that we aren't in the fourth tier. Maybe that's what 23 years of hurt does to people.
Hughes started well and ended dreadfully I believe this to day our relegation was completely unnecessary. We threw it away through dreadful recruitment, a lack of ability or willingness to make key decisions, Tony Scholes, and some slightly.old fashioned views about the game.
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masne
Academy Starlet
Posts: 103
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Post by masne on May 28, 2021 20:17:30 GMT
Essentially, the board bottled it and failed to reinvest at a critical time. We could have been Leicester. Shame
M
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Post by hardcastle on May 29, 2021 10:32:26 GMT
My two penneth. Bielsa's done a fantastic job at Leeds, just as TP and MH did at Stoke. MH delivered the best football I've seen at Stoke in over 50 years, and that includes the red & white tinted memories of my childhood 70s heroes. The first half against Manchester City in 2015(?) was spell binding, breath taking football. Bojan and Shaqiri were drifting past the best the Premier League had to offer. Marko brilliant too breaking in to a centre forward position from the left. The best I've ever seen a Stoke side play. I would have kept Hughes. (But with 20/20 hindsight, left the recruitment to somebody else) A big clear the air or re-bonding trip after the Cov debacle. He would have kept us up I'm sure. It may have only put off the inevitable. He would have gone at the end of that season and we've messed up 3 replacements since. Don't post so much these days, but for what it's worth, I have high hopes for MON. It might take a year or two to get rid of some, but with our academy bearing fruit, the future looks bright. I'd agree with every sentence of that Okey.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2021 13:20:25 GMT
Essentially, the board bottled it and failed to reinvest at a critical time. We could have been Leicester. Shame M The board didn't bottle it ...we invested but with the grace of hindsight,poorly. Leicester are a complete one off, plenty of clubs can say the same. Finishing in the top half is more of an achievement than many give credit for. We have never historically been regular top half material , far from it
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Post by mtrstudent on May 29, 2021 15:11:15 GMT
So reading the end of season reviews Bielsa seems to be pretty much everyone's 'star of the season for having engineered a 9th place finish for the once mighty Leeds United. Mark 'Sparky' Hughes rattled off 3 of the f*ckers in a row for the once not quite so mighty Potters and yet was hounded out of town 18 months after the third one and is regarded my many as at best a figure of fun and at worst public enemy #1. While accepting it all went wrong under a tsunami of crazy signings it must now be possible to give the taciturn Welshman some credit for what he did here, mustn't it? I mean we were pretty good for some time under his stewardship, actually better than pretty good, not far off as good as you can be without going super-sized. I feel he benefitted a lot from the foundation TP had created, but LMH didn't understand what kind of characters that were needed to keep a club like Stoke up. His 3 first seasons were amazing, but then he decided to throw too many of the right characters off the boat at the same time and the result was inevitable. He brought some fantastic players to Stoke though during his reign, but a lot of shit too, and at our best we really could beat anybody in the league. Unfortunately he couldn't see the signals before it was too late. Hughes could take a spine of steel and bolt on some flair parts, then get both bits working together and I'm forever grateful for that. He failed utterly at rebuilding the spine but the gamble was worth it IMO. That's why he deserves less acclaim than Bielsa, who has managed to build a spine that works 'ard with enough quality to be fun to watch. It's annoying that everyone spaffs themselves over him and Leeds, but what he's done is incredible.
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Post by oslostokie1 on May 29, 2021 21:24:47 GMT
I feel he benefitted a lot from the foundation TP had created, but LMH didn't understand what kind of characters that were needed to keep a club like Stoke up. His 3 first seasons were amazing, but then he decided to throw too many of the right characters off the boat at the same time and the result was inevitable. He brought some fantastic players to Stoke though during his reign, but a lot of shit too, and at our best we really could beat anybody in the league. Unfortunately he couldn't see the signals before it was too late. Hughes could take a spine of steel and bolt on some flair parts, then get both bits working together and I'm forever grateful for that. He failed utterly at rebuilding the spine but the gamble was worth it IMO. That's why he deserves less acclaim than Bielsa, who has managed to build a spine that works 'ard with enough quality to be fun to watch. It's annoying that everyone spaffs themselves over him and Leeds, but what he's done is incredible. So Bielsa deserves more acclaim for doing it once than Hughes did for doing it 3x? How can that make any sense at all? Let’s see where Leeds and Bielsa are in 2025 first shall we
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Post by mtrstudent on May 29, 2021 23:06:46 GMT
Hughes could take a spine of steel and bolt on some flair parts, then get both bits working together and I'm forever grateful for that. He failed utterly at rebuilding the spine but the gamble was worth it IMO. That's why he deserves less acclaim than Bielsa, who has managed to build a spine that works 'ard with enough quality to be fun to watch. It's annoying that everyone spaffs themselves over him and Leeds, but what he's done is incredible. So Bielsa deserves more acclaim for doing it once than Hughes did for doing it 3x? How can that make any sense at all? Let’s see where Leeds and Bielsa are in 2025 first shall we Sure, let's wait and see. Bielsa basically put this whole team together in his image. Hughes built skillfully on Pulis' framework. Those are different levels of difficulty IMO so I'm more impressed by Bielsa's achievement.
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