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Post by wakefieldstokie on Apr 13, 2021 19:19:46 GMT
In terms of results it's not true to say the cracks are getting bigger. Lambert had 2 wins in 15 games, win rate of 13.3% Rowett had 9 wins in 29 games, a win rate of 31.0% Jones had 6 wins in 38 games, a win rate of 15.8% O'Neill has 31 wins in 79 games, a win rate of 39.2% In that sense Michael O'Neill has delivered a massive improvement and the club is therefore in a better position this season. Interested to see MON’s stars for the last 20 games?
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Post by iglugluk on Apr 13, 2021 19:22:13 GMT
And at some point we might have to win more than 3 games in a row. 3 in a row would be a start..how long now?
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Post by iglugluk on Apr 13, 2021 19:36:17 GMT
In terms of results it's not true to say the cracks are getting bigger. Lambert had 2 wins in 15 games, win rate of 13.3% Rowett had 9 wins in 29 games, a win rate of 31.0% Jones had 6 wins in 38 games, a win rate of 15.8% O'Neill has 31 wins in 79 games, a win rate of 39.2% In that sense Michael O'Neill has delivered a massive improvement and the club is therefore in a better position this season. Interested to see MON’s stars for the last 20 games? A question often asked when seeing his overall win % Asked for a good reason.. Momentum matters and anyone who says it doesn't is ignoring an uncomfortable truth. The reason the MoN 'out' posters are worried is that the writing on the wall was there to see the season before Hughes and the owners engineered a 'complacency relegation' and yet all the naysayers said simplistic things like '10th place ffs' and 'stop wetting your knickers' etc. Ever since December our form has been gash and that's a long old decline. Whether MoN can halt the decline we will see next season, unless he leaves first. But make no mistake a decline is occurring and hints of dressing room problems and important employees suddenly leaving out of the blue don't inspire confidence. If, and its definitely an if, Campbell returns to his best ( if at all! ) and Doughty turns out to be an inspired signing then maybe something can happen but it's pretty worrying right now and anyone who thinks it isn't are exhibiting over confidence in what currently appears to be our broken Club. Hopefully we wont have to read another Trouserdog missive about a 'reset in Div1' being what the club needs.
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Post by geoff321 on Apr 13, 2021 19:51:28 GMT
In terms of results it's not true to say the cracks are getting bigger. Lambert had 2 wins in 15 games, win rate of 13.3% Rowett had 9 wins in 29 games, a win rate of 31.0% Jones had 6 wins in 38 games, a win rate of 15.8% O'Neill has 31 wins in 79 games, a win rate of 39.2% In that sense Michael O'Neill has delivered a massive improvement and the club is therefore in a better position this season. Interested to see MON’s stars for the last 20 games? Results were poor in the last months of Hughes, poor under Lambert, slightly better under Rowett, just awful under Jones.
O'Neill comes in and we get a new manager bounce which often happens. Then the really hard work starts to try and continue the improvement and yes there are ups and downs this season which is only to be expected.
A manager cannot wave a wand and turn a relegation team into a promotion one, it takes time and careful planning and hard work, we should see this season as a start in the return to better times.
No one can guarantee anything in football but the green shoots of recovery may well be in place, to change the manager at this point would be madness.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2021 20:05:28 GMT
And at some point we might have to win more than 3 games in a row. 3 in a row would be a start..how long now? It's just a weird fix. Three games won in a row won't help us much if we then lose the next six. There's always some stat which can be held against a team. For years it was 'when was the last we scored more than two goals', now it's 'when was the last time we won more than two in a row'. I guarantee you once we do, some other ditzy stat will come up.
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Post by tosh on Apr 13, 2021 20:06:30 GMT
In terms of results it's not true to say the cracks are getting bigger. Lambert had 2 wins in 15 games, win rate of 13.3% Rowett had 9 wins in 29 games, a win rate of 31.0% Jones had 6 wins in 38 games, a win rate of 15.8% O'Neill has 31 wins in 79 games, a win rate of 39.2% In that sense Michael O'Neill has delivered a massive improvement and the club is therefore in a better position this season. Interested to see MON’s stars for the last 20 games? Absolutely right. We started off well under MON but are at the moment seem to be in constant decline. MON - 1st part season 2019/20 over 31 games -45% win ratio MON - 2020/21 season up to now. - 41 games - 31% win ratio But over last 20 games this season -25% win ratio The “massive improvement” looks like it has turned into a steady decline. 21 points in the last 20 games is normally relegation form. Fortunately we were a bit better over the previous 21 games.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2021 20:07:54 GMT
3 in a row would be a start..how long now? It's just a weird fix. Three games won in a row won't help us much if we then lose the next six. There's always some stat which can be held against a team. For years it was 'when was the last we scored more than two goals', now it's 'when was the last time we won more than two in a row'. I guarantee you once we do, some other ditzy stat will come up. When was the last time you knocked one out at a game?
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Post by geoff321 on Apr 13, 2021 20:11:04 GMT
Interested to see MON’s stars for the last 20 games? A question often asked when seeing his overall win % Asked for a good reason.. Momentum matters and anyone who says it doesn't is ignoring an uncomfortable truth. The reason the MoN 'out' posters are worried is that the writing on the wall was there to see the season before Hughes and the owners engineered a 'complacency relegation' and yet all the naysayers said simplistic things like '10th place ffs' and 'stop wetting your knickers' etc. Ever since December our form has been gash and that's a long old decline. Whether MoN can halt the decline we will see next season, unless he leaves first. But make no mistake a decline is occurring and hints of dressing room problems and important employees suddenly leaving out of the blue don't inspire confidence. If, and its definitely an if, Campbell returns to his best ( if at all! ) and Doughty turns out to be an inspired signing then maybe something can happen but it's pretty worrying right now and anyone who thinks it isn't are exhibiting over confidence in what currently appears to be our broken Club. Hopefully we wont have to read another Trouserdog missive about a 'reset in Div1' being what the club needs. I don't think the club is broken at all, I think it's just experiencing a difficult period and is trying hard to get back to where we were a few years ago.
We've been out of the PL for a couple of seasons, many clubs have been out for decades, some have never been in the PL.
We need to avoid panic and be patient and see what O'Neill can deliver next season.
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Post by iglugluk on Apr 13, 2021 20:14:35 GMT
A question often asked when seeing his overall win % Asked for a good reason.. Momentum matters and anyone who says it doesn't is ignoring an uncomfortable truth. The reason the MoN 'out' posters are worried is that the writing on the wall was there to see the season before Hughes and the owners engineered a 'complacency relegation' and yet all the naysayers said simplistic things like '10th place ffs' and 'stop wetting your knickers' etc. Ever since December our form has been gash and that's a long old decline. Whether MoN can halt the decline we will see next season, unless he leaves first. But make no mistake a decline is occurring and hints of dressing room problems and important employees suddenly leaving out of the blue don't inspire confidence. If, and its definitely an if, Campbell returns to his best ( if at all! ) and Doughty turns out to be an inspired signing then maybe something can happen but it's pretty worrying right now and anyone who thinks it isn't are exhibiting over confidence in what currently appears to be our broken Club. Hopefully we wont have to read another Trouserdog missive about a 'reset in Div1' being what the club needs. I don't think the club is broken at all, I think it's just experiencing a difficult period and is trying hard to get back to where we were a few years ago. We've been out of the PL for a couple of seasons, many clubs have been out for decades, some have never been in the PL. We need to avoid panic and be patient and see what O'Neill can deliver next season.
I half agree. I am still concerned about the last 5 months, though, and whether that's a strong signifier of a decline that infects next season.
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Post by Sfance on Apr 13, 2021 20:15:15 GMT
I'm more and more convinced that the reason the players turned it around when MON first arrived is that they were so relieved to be out from under Mad Nath. They've since settled back down to their old energy/skill level. There is no reason at all to suppose he's going to be able to gin them back up to the level he had them playing at before. It's not in him to be able to do that.
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Post by tosh on Apr 13, 2021 20:22:51 GMT
I don't think the club is broken at all, I think it's just experiencing a difficult period and is trying hard to get back to where we were a few years ago. We've been out of the PL for a couple of seasons, many clubs have been out for decades, some have never been in the PL. We need to avoid panic and be patient and see what O'Neill can deliver next season.
I half agree. I am still concerned about the last 5 months, though, and whether that's a strong signifier of a decline that infects next season. I think you have good cause to be concerned. - see my stats four posts above this one. - 21 points from the last 20 games.
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Post by geoff321 on Apr 13, 2021 20:31:29 GMT
I half agree. I am still concerned about the last 5 months, though, and whether that's a strong signifier of a decline that infects next season. I think you have good cause to be concerned. - see my stats four posts above this one. - 21 points from the last 20 games. All managers have poor spells, even the great ones in the PL and they are with the elite clubs.
O'Neill took over a struggling club in decline facing possible relegation, there is unlikely to be a quick fix to these problems.
Overall he has delivered mid table and saftey, not bottom six and threat of relegation, that is the improvement .
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Post by wilcopotter on Apr 13, 2021 20:41:17 GMT
Well I think the cracks need to be investigated further. Assuming we can rule out structural settlement we are left with either subsidence or heave. Are the gutters and drains clear. Is there a possible collapsed drain. Are there trees nearby which have recently been chopped down? What is the age of the property? What foundations was it built on, raft or strip? Is it timber framed? Can we be certain of the buildings structural integrity? Have lintels been removed by a keen DIYer without knowledge of the purpose of them? Are supporting walls fit for purpose. All would need to be considered before repair or replace could even be considered. Correct you wouldn’t want to go piling in without knowing what your doing.
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Post by kustokie on Apr 13, 2021 20:59:56 GMT
That’s certainly true but it doesn’t help team morale. Charlie’s Adam’s miss was another example of how a single event can have very negative longer-term consequences. Yes but on whom. Pros don't let single events influence them. There'd be many more suicides and depressions if they did. I disagree.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2021 21:04:31 GMT
I'm more and more convinced that the reason the players turned it around when MON first arrived is that they were so relieved to be out from under Mad Nath. They've since settled back down to their old energy/skill level. There is no reason at all to suppose he's going to be able to gin them back up to the level he had them playing at before. It's not in him to be able to do that. He had them playing at a level that is not in him to get them playing...???
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Post by pottersrule on Apr 13, 2021 21:04:56 GMT
The cracks have been clearly evident for years, the issue is we continuously employ a poor decorator who we ask to polish a fat stinking turd by filling in the massive cracks, paint over the problem and paying whatever he quotes. Obviously the cracks reappear but we never get to the root cause and rinse and repeat and no questions asked, we then carry on regardless dispose of the previous decorator then employ another decorator and his shoddy employees arrive and we ask them to carry out the same exercise, absolutely pathetic. I know of several tradesmen who despite the riches on offer won’t work for Denise Coates due to her well over the top standards but seemingly the other family members don’t give a flying ...... Why does the decorators standard of workmanship improve when he leaves Stoke?
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Post by tosh on Apr 13, 2021 21:16:00 GMT
I think you have good cause to be concerned. - see my stats four posts above this one. - 21 points from the last 20 games. All managers have poor spells, even the great ones in the PL and they are with the elite clubs. O'Neill took over a struggling club in decline facing possible relegation, there is unlikely to be a quick fix to these problems. Overall he has delivered mid table and saftey, not bottom six and threat of relegation, that is the improvement .
Fair enough but relegation form over the last twenty matches and a whiff of trouble in the camp is certainly a bit worrying.
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Post by Sfance on Apr 13, 2021 21:35:39 GMT
I'm more and more convinced that the reason the players turned it around when MON first arrived is that they were so relieved to be out from under Mad Nath. They've since settled back down to their old energy/skill level. There is no reason at all to suppose he's going to be able to gin them back up to the level he had them playing at before. It's not in him to be able to do that. He had them playing at a level that is not in him to get them playing...??? You’re missing my point. It wasn’t him that got them playing better in the first place. They decided to play better themselves because they were so chuffed that Mad Nate had left. Now that relief is long since dissipated. Mad Nate is all forgotten about. So they’ve stopped stretching themselves. They’re in “why should we bother mode?” And MON doesn’t know how to get them back to playing the way they did when he first came. It’s all over for him.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2021 23:17:37 GMT
He had them playing at a level that is not in him to get them playing...??? You’re missing my point. It wasn’t him that got them playing better in the first place. They decided to play better themselves because they were so chuffed that Mad Nate had left. Now that relief is long since dissipated. Mad Nate is all forgotten about. So they’ve stopped stretching themselves. They’re in “why should we bother mode?” And MON doesn’t know how to get them back to playing the way they did when he first came. It’s all over for him. There's just one thing completely wrong with your theory. The team that was then is not the team that is now. Like many managers MON doesn't believe in his own success so he starts dismantling the team and/or the tactical style that brought him so much success. Moreover he's not really happy till he has his own team. Subsequently he's started bringing in a number of new players, not stars as most would, but players that seemingly only He believes in. Not many Stokies can see the benefits of having TOB, knob, and Jacob Brown in the team, yet the more they fail the more MON believes. Players like Souttar and Collins he will probably also claim as keys to his team, and they were not or only sporadically in the team last year. Injuries have also robbed him of much of the team that was. They've made sporadic appearances before gettin injured again. The only stretching they're involved with is warming up becauses they no longer are able to much more than that. There's probably some truth in what you say in the name of James McClean. Having been a maimed figure all his career, he suddenly became the golden boy in ST4. That's not really a role that he knows how to be in, so he's gone back to his immaturity and bites the hand that feeds him. Another player hovering on immature ways Nick Powell plays very well when he's on the mood, which is not every week, but there's no pattern that fits your system, because if he did fit it, he would play less gladly all the time, and thaat is not the case.
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Post by skip on Apr 13, 2021 23:22:01 GMT
Remember in Dr Who when there was a big crack in Amy Pond's bedroom wall? That fucker spanned whole parallel universes and time itself. Is the Stoke crack that big?
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Post by kustokie on Apr 13, 2021 23:26:51 GMT
That’s my biggest worry too. Being under contract does not really mean that much because if the club gets a big enough offer they have an obligation to take it to the board. I don’t believe another club can approach the players directly; however, they all have agents to act on their behalf. Premier league teams can easily buy out the remainder of their contracts, as well as giving them a big signing bonus and a big pay raise. All the contracts really do is increase what another club has to pay. That’s why teams extend the contracts of their most valued players. They’ll end up with a very disgruntled player if they refuse to consider an offer from another club. It'sd just irrational fear. Niether one of those mentioned have mentioned that they want away if so and so doesn't happen. They believe in the club. Too bad so many socalled supporters don't support. Not wanting away doesn’t mean they can’t be enticed by a better team, in a better league with more money. The most common reason highly compensated employees leave is lack of appreciation not how much they are paid. The fact they can make more more money in a less toxic environment is just icing on the cake.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2021 3:59:37 GMT
It'sd just irrational fear. Niether one of those mentioned have mentioned that they want away if so and so doesn't happen. They believe in the club. Too bad so many socalled supporters don't support. Not wanting away doesn’t mean they can’t be enticed by a better team, in a better league with more money. The most common reason highly compensated employees leave is lack of appreciation not how much they are paid. The fact they can make more more money in a less toxic environment is just icing on the cake. We could be top of the league amd they could still be "enticed" by a better team. You can't control that. You have to be pleased for them, because they have served us well. All you can do is hope we get a financially rewatding deal with plenty of add ons, and that they join a great club and not Burnley or Watford, who are only marginally better than us.
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Post by questionable on Apr 14, 2021 5:36:58 GMT
The cracks have been clearly evident for years, the issue is we continuously employ a poor decorator who we ask to polish a fat stinking turd by filling in the massive cracks, paint over the problem and paying whatever he quotes. Obviously the cracks reappear but we never get to the root cause and rinse and repeat and no questions asked, we then carry on regardless dispose of the previous decorator then employ another decorator and his shoddy employees arrive and we ask them to carry out the same exercise, absolutely pathetic. I know of several tradesmen who despite the riches on offer won’t work for Denise Coates due to her well over the top standards but seemingly the other family members don’t give a flying ...... Why does the decorators standard of workmanship improve when he leaves Stoke? Not as many cracks to fill or a customer who knows it’s not as simple as papering over cracks and gets the root problems sorted properly beforehand.
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Post by wakefieldstokie on Apr 14, 2021 8:06:12 GMT
Interested to see MON’s stars for the last 20 games? Results were poor in the last months of Hughes, poor under Lambert, slightly better under Rowett, just awful under Jones. O'Neill comes in and we get a new manager bounce which often happens. Then the really hard work starts to try and continue the improvement and yes there are ups and downs this season which is only to be expected. A manager cannot wave a wand and turn a relegation team into a promotion one, it takes time and careful planning and hard work, we should see this season as a start in the return to better times.
No one can guarantee anything in football but the green shoots of recovery may well be in place, to change the manager at this point would be madness.
No but it does happen, see Barnsley
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Post by Roy Cropper on Apr 14, 2021 9:51:47 GMT
Results were poor in the last months of Hughes, poor under Lambert, slightly better under Rowett, just awful under Jones. O'Neill comes in and we get a new manager bounce which often happens. Then the really hard work starts to try and continue the improvement and yes there are ups and downs this season which is only to be expected. A manager cannot wave a wand and turn a relegation team into a promotion one, it takes time and careful planning and hard work, we should see this season as a start in the return to better times.
No one can guarantee anything in football but the green shoots of recovery may well be in place, to change the manager at this point would be madness.
No but it does happen, see Barnsley And Leicester won the Premier League in their second season after promotion - it doesn't mean that it's a realistic target for everybody else.
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Post by thehoof on Apr 14, 2021 12:26:54 GMT
No but it does happen, see Barnsley And Leicester won the Premier League in their second season after promotion - it doesn't mean that it's a realistic target for everybody else. And have managed to threaten a place in the Champions league every season but one since-if it’s not realistic how have they managed it? Good back room set up? Good management- promotion of young players or purchase of decent young players rather than lumbering has beens!
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Post by Roy Cropper on Apr 14, 2021 12:50:44 GMT
And Leicester won the Premier League in their second season after promotion - it doesn't mean that it's a realistic target for everybody else. And have managed to threaten a place in the Champions league every season but one since-if it’s not realistic how have they managed it? Good back room set up? Good management- promotion of young players or purchase of decent young players rather than lumbering has beens! It's isn't realistic to enter the lottery and expect to win - that doesn't mean it isn't possible. Constantly comparing Stoke to clubs in completely different circumstances isn't helpful, we need to set our own targets and judge against those. Last season we were an ants shaft away from League 1 and MON came in and steadied the ship. We were pushing for the playoffs this season until some key injuries; nobody can argue the second half of the season hasn't been disappointing, but I'm amazed so many people think hiring our 6th manager in 3 years is the answer to our problems.
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Post by thehoof on Apr 14, 2021 13:37:29 GMT
And have managed to threaten a place in the Champions league every season but one since-if it’s not realistic how have they managed it? Good back room set up? Good management- promotion of young players or purchase of decent young players rather than lumbering has beens! It's isn't realistic to enter the lottery and expect to win - that doesn't mean it isn't possible. Constantly comparing Stoke to clubs in completely different circumstances isn't helpful, we need to set our own targets and judge against those. Last season we were an ants shaft away from League 1 and MON came in and steadied the ship. We were pushing for the playoffs this season until some key injuries; nobody can argue the second half of the season hasn't been disappointing, but I'm amazed so many people think hiring our 6th manager in 3 years is the answer to our problems. Rubbish Roy- who were in the better position? Stoke City with 8 years of Premiership experience, or a team that had one year in which they nearly got relegated- similar crowd potential , similar funding ability- one clearly has a better thought process than the other. MO’n did indeed steady the ship- but if you listen to his comments, doesn’t it strike you that he’s had enough- the people who he picks ( his own words) haven’t got the desire to go to the next level, and the youngsters again his words “are not good enough”. That’s a real blue print to fill you full of optimism. He inherited a crap situation due to our mismanagement of the last 4 seasons, and stabilisation is probably all we are capable of- something resembling attractive football would make the pill easier to take.
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Post by thevoid on Apr 14, 2021 16:30:42 GMT
Remember in Dr Who when there was a big crack in Amy Pond's bedroom wall? That fucker spanned whole parallel universes and time itself. Is the Stoke crack that big? Not seen that one but do you think if you blinked, Vokes would move quicker?
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Post by skip on Apr 14, 2021 17:31:41 GMT
Remember in Dr Who when there was a big crack in Amy Pond's bedroom wall? That fucker spanned whole parallel universes and time itself. Is the Stoke crack that big? Not seen that one but do you think if you blinked, Vokes would move quicker? There is now way that Vokes could out manoeuvre the Weeping Angels.
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