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Post by bingbang on Dec 20, 2020 9:41:19 GMT
Was thinking about ffp and the possible massive injection new owners of Derby could put in.
Could Denise sell the club to another company owned by John Coates allowing us to start spending again.
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Post by mattythestokie on Dec 20, 2020 9:42:48 GMT
You could have Man City’s owners here and we wouldn’t be allowed spend money due to ffp.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Dec 20, 2020 9:43:27 GMT
The potential new Derby owners will only be able to invest if they get promoted so I don’t get the question🤔
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Post by bingbang on Dec 20, 2020 9:45:05 GMT
Don’t really understand how ffp works to be honest as much as I have tried.
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Post by franklin on Dec 20, 2020 9:45:44 GMT
She could yes.
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Post by J-Roar on Dec 20, 2020 9:51:47 GMT
Don’t really understand how ffp works to be honest as much as I have tried. If you spunk all your parachute money on shit managers, shit players and dish out contracts to extend wasters you are fucked. I think that's how it works. |
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Dec 20, 2020 9:51:55 GMT
If she owned it in the first place. |
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Post by crapslinger on Dec 20, 2020 9:54:23 GMT
Don’t really understand how ffp works to be honest as much as I have tried. If you spunk all your parachute money on shit managers, shit players and dish out contracts to extend wasters you are fucked. I think that's how it works. Nothing wrong with the process  |
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Dec 20, 2020 9:56:52 GMT
She (i.e bet365) could certainly sell the club - but the new owners would be under the same FFP constraints as bet365 are. FFP relates to the losses incurred BY THE CLUB over a number of seasons AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THE OWNERS HAVE. Put simply, bet365 could easily fund Stokes losses since relegation but they (and any other owner) are not allowed to avoid FFP by funding the losses. Income EARNED by the club counts towards eliminating losses for FFP purposes - donations by the owner (above a small amount) don't help FFP at all. |
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Post by franklin on Dec 20, 2020 9:57:05 GMT
If she owned it in the first place. I'm pretty sure she does if push came to shove but your right. |
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Post by franklin on Dec 20, 2020 9:58:37 GMT
She could certainly sell the club - but the new owners would be under the same FFP constraints as bet365 are. FFP relates to the losses incurred by THE CLUB over a number of seasons AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THE OWNERS HAVE. Put simply, bet365 could easily fund Stokes losses since relegation but they (and any other owner) are not allowed to avoid FFP by funding the losses. Income EARNED by the club counts towards eliminating losses for FFP purposes - donations by the owner (above a small amount) don't help FFP at all. Oh I know i was answering the OP's simple question. Could she sell? the answer is yes. |
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Dec 20, 2020 10:02:46 GMT
She could certainly sell the club - but the new owners would be under the same FFP constraints as bet365 are. FFP relates to the losses incurred by THE CLUB over a number of seasons AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THE OWNERS HAVE. Put simply, bet365 could easily fund Stokes losses since relegation but they (and any other owner) are not allowed to avoid FFP by funding the losses. Income EARNED by the club counts towards eliminating losses for FFP purposes - donations by the owner (above a small amount) don't help FFP at all. Oh I know i was answering the OP's simple question. Could she sell? the answer is yes. I know. If we were all in a pub I would be looking at the OP (not at you) whilst I was speaking! |
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Post by robwahlmann on Dec 20, 2020 10:10:03 GMT
I really hope we will be owned by the current owners for years to come!  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2020 10:13:08 GMT
I really hope we will be owned by the current owners for years to come! We're blessed, a more competent Chief Exec would be very welcome but let's hold onto these owners. |
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Post by followyoudown on Dec 20, 2020 10:15:34 GMT
She (i.e bet365) could certainly sell the club - but the new owners would be under the same FFP constraints as bet365 are. FFP relates to the losses incurred BY THE CLUB over a number of seasons AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THE OWNERS HAVE. Put simply, bet365 could easily fund Stokes losses since relegation but they (and any other owner) are not allowed to avoid FFP by funding the losses. Income EARNED by the club counts towards eliminating losses for FFP purposes - donations by the owner (above a small amount) don't help FFP at all. Small amount isn't it about £11m a season just how much is you public sector pension  On a more serious point this season and the last will surely mean most clubs are facing FFP problems, some will be struggling to stay in existence yet owners are being prevented and penalised from investing in their clubs seems a bit crazy..... |
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Post by franklin on Dec 20, 2020 10:19:09 GMT
Oh I know i was answering the OP's simple question. Could she sell? the answer is yes. I know. If we were all in a pub I would be looking at the OP (not at you) whilst I was speaking! Well the next time I'm in the Albert in Bowness on that lovely sun deck out back you can ignore me again 😆 |
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Post by magwitch on Dec 20, 2020 10:19:16 GMT
Was thinking about ffp and the possible massive injection new owners of Derby could put in. Could Denise sell the club to another company owned by John Coates allowing us to start spending again. My understanding Of the Derby case was that the club sold their stadium to the owner, then won a court case against the EFL, thus increasing the money available for investment. Stoke could do a similar thing if the club owned the Bet365 Stadium. Stoke City moved to the Britania Stadium in 1997 when Bet365 did not exist, so if they no longer own the stadium, Bet365 must have bought it at some stage, so they have already done this and presumably wasted the money on the likes of Wimmer, Imbula, Berahino and others. The many mistakes of the Stoke Board are now coming back to bite them, if this analysis is correct. Ironic that most of the Board are Bet365 men. |
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Dec 20, 2020 10:22:16 GMT
She (i.e bet365) could certainly sell the club - but the new owners would be under the same FFP constraints as bet365 are. FFP relates to the losses incurred BY THE CLUB over a number of seasons AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THE OWNERS HAVE. Put simply, bet365 could easily fund Stokes losses since relegation but they (and any other owner) are not allowed to avoid FFP by funding the losses. Income EARNED by the club counts towards eliminating losses for FFP purposes - donations by the owner (above a small amount) don't help FFP at all. Small amount isn't it about £11m a season just how much is you public sector pension On a more serious point this season and the last will surely mean most clubs are facing FFP problems, some will be struggling to stay in existence yet owners are being prevented and penalised from investing in their clubs seems a bit crazy..... Yes, I think (certainly I hope) that FFP will be further adjusted by the end of this season and stay that way for a decent interval after we start to get over Covid. If it isn't, then the casualties are going to be huge - many through no fault of their own.  |
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Dec 20, 2020 10:50:38 GMT
Was thinking about ffp and the possible massive injection new owners of Derby could put in. Could Denise sell the club to another company owned by John Coates allowing us to start spending again. My understanding Of the Derby case was that the club sold their stadium to the owner, then won a court case against the EFL, thus increasing the money available for investment. Stoke could do a similar thing if the club owned the Bet365 Stadium. Stoke City moved to the Britania Stadium in 1997 when Bet365 did not exist, so if they no longer own the stadium, Bet365 must have bought it at some stage, so they have already done this and presumably wasted the money on the likes of Wimmer, Imbula, Berahino and others. The many mistakes of the Stoke Board are now coming back to bite them, if this analysis is correct. Ironic that most of the Board are Bet365 men. However in our case I don’t think the football club ever owned the ground so we were never in a position to sell it. My understanding is the ground is owned by Stoke City Holdings Ltd a separate company to the Football Club (albeit the major shareholder) and the major shareholder of Stoke City Holdings is bet365. I think SCH owned the ground since they bought out the City Council’s interest in the mid 2000’s. So even if they could (under FFP rules) the sale of the ground to anyone wouldn’t benefit the club simply the owners ie bet365 and ultimately the Coates family. I think. |
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Post by magwitch on Dec 20, 2020 10:54:18 GMT
The EFL are an official body with a public sector mentality. I believe it is strongly influenced by the thinking behind the EU. Hopefully the UK can put the EU behind us after December 31st and go back to our traditional ways. For once I agree with Teflon Tony about his disagreement with FFP, but I notice that no-one posed the question about what he is actually doing about it. Unfortunately Uncle Peter was all in favour of it before Denise started making her millions.
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Post by lordb on Dec 20, 2020 10:58:46 GMT
The EFL are an official body with a public sector mentality. I believe it is strongly influenced by the thinking behind the EU. Hopefully the UK can put the EU behind us after December 31st and go back to our traditional ways. For once I agree with Teflon Tony about his disagreement with FFP, but I notice that no-one posed the question about what he is actually doing about it. Unfortunately Uncle Peter was all in favour of it before Denise started making her millions. The EFL is a trade body, Brexit has no relevance in this. |
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Post by moon on Dec 20, 2020 11:12:54 GMT
One way around it might be to buy another club, and for that club to buy all of the players we don't want at inflated fees, but in reality that's never going to happen.
Summary from wikipedia:
"Only a club's outgoings in transfers, employee benefits (including wages), amortisation of transfers, finance costs and dividends will be counted over income from gate receipts, TV revenue, advertising, merchandising, disposal of tangible fixed assets, finance, sales of players and prize money. Any money spent on infrastructure, training facilities or youth development will not be included.[51] The legislation currently allows for eight separate punishments to be taken against clubs transgressing the rules, based in order of severity: Reprimand / Warning, fines, points deduction, withholding of Revenue from a UEFA competition, Prohibition to register new players for UEFA competitions, Restrictions on how many players a club can register for UEFA competitions, Disqualification from a competition in progress and Exclusion from future competitions"
Money spent on youth development and training facilities is not included in FFP so perhaps the best long term strategy is to invest in the academy and make it one of the best in the country, to develop decent youth players who we can turn into first team regulars or sell at a profit, not that it's going to be that easy - but I'd love us to go in that direction as opposed to the way we've been mostly been investing (or wasting money) over the past 5-10 years.
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Post by nottsover60 on Dec 20, 2020 11:16:01 GMT
The potential new Derby owners will only be able to invest if they get promoted so I don’t get the question🤔 Apparently their are several Middle Eastern companies who have suddenly expressed a wish to sponsor Derby so FFP won't be an issue I'm told. |
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Dec 20, 2020 11:17:11 GMT
The potential new Derby owners will only be able to invest if they get promoted so I don’t get the question🤔 Apparently their are several Middle Eastern companies who have suddenly expressed a wish to sponsor Derby so FFP won't be an issue I'm told. So that doesn’t affect FFP then? |
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Post by sportsman on Dec 20, 2020 11:18:39 GMT
I really wish a club or loads of clubs would take a stand against ffp.
Boycott, down tools, anything.
Bloody sick of it.
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Post by nottsover60 on Dec 20, 2020 11:25:53 GMT
Apparently their are several Middle Eastern companies who have suddenly expressed a wish to sponsor Derby so FFP won't be an issue I'm told. So that doesn’t affect FFP then? No it counts as earnings which can be offset against spending. I have some inside contacts at Derby and know they are not worried about FFP because the new owners will bring lots of investment into the club. Bet365 can't increase sponsorship because they are the owners of the club but I'm told they could be a bit more creative in looking at ways round it. I think the Coates family have a high fair play attitude though and don't like bending the rules even if they don't like them. I say fair dos to them as it is far more sustainable in the long run than having lots of sponsorship which might suddenly dry up when the owners decide to sell. |
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Post by crowey on Dec 20, 2020 11:31:03 GMT
I really wish a club or loads of clubs would take a stand against ffp. Boycott, down tools, anything. Bloody sick of it. .... all it does is keep the big boys’ snouts in the trough |
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Post by northernstokie on Dec 20, 2020 11:38:05 GMT
They need to relax FFP for a year or 2 so owners can save there clubs. So many must be close to going bankrupt with no fans. It would be a huge loss to see clubs disappear because of FFP
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Post by Linx on Dec 20, 2020 11:41:29 GMT
The EFL are an official body with a public sector mentality. I believe it is strongly influenced by the thinking behind the EU. Hopefully the UK can put the EU behind us after December 31st and go back to our traditional ways. For once I agree with Teflon Tony about his disagreement with FFP, but I notice that no-one posed the question about what he is actually doing about it. Unfortunately Uncle Peter was all in favour of it before Denise started making her millions. That’s quite a trick to lever a Brexit angle into this! Completely irrelevant, of course, but will be relevant to everybody’s lives next year. Good luck with everything you wished for. |
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Post by followyoudown on Dec 20, 2020 11:53:34 GMT
My understanding Of the Derby case was that the club sold their stadium to the owner, then won a court case against the EFL, thus increasing the money available for investment. Stoke could do a similar thing if the club owned the Bet365 Stadium. Stoke City moved to the Britania Stadium in 1997 when Bet365 did not exist, so if they no longer own the stadium, Bet365 must have bought it at some stage, so they have already done this and presumably wasted the money on the likes of Wimmer, Imbula, Berahino and others. The many mistakes of the Stoke Board are now coming back to bite them, if this analysis is correct. Ironic that most of the Board are Bet365 men. However in our case I don’t think the football club ever owned the ground so we were never in a position to sell it. My understanding is the ground is owned by Stoke City Holdings Ltd a separate company to the Football Club (albeit the major shareholder) and the major shareholder of Stoke City Holdings is bet365. I think SCH owned the ground since they bought out the City Council’s interest in the mid 2000’s. So even if they could (under FFP rules) the sale of the ground to anyone wouldn’t benefit the club simply the owners ie bet365 and ultimately the Coates family. I think. Yes I believe thats true the main reason is I think bet365 didn't own 100% of Stoke City so if they put the ground into the football club they would effectively have given away part of the ground for nothing. The other thing on Derby its a one time trick and in the end leaves them a little worse off each year as they have to pay a commercial rent each year to justify the sale price otherwise the EFL would not accept it. |
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