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Post by followyoudown on Dec 20, 2020 11:56:48 GMT
Small amount isn't it about £11m a season just how much is you public sector pension On a more serious point this season and the last will surely mean most clubs are facing FFP problems, some will be struggling to stay in existence yet owners are being prevented and penalised from investing in their clubs seems a bit crazy..... Yes, I think (certainly I hope) that FFP will be further adjusted by the end of this season and stay that way for a decent interval after we start to get over Covid. If it isn't, then the casualties are going to be huge - many through no fault of their own. Yes if O'Neill hadn't kept us up we'd be really struggling, Sunderland must be in a hell of a hole 25,000+ each home game lost yet still paying wages in line with that.....
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Post by march4 on Dec 20, 2020 11:57:28 GMT
Was thinking about ffp and the possible massive injection new owners of Derby could put in. Could Denise sell the club to another company owned by John Coates allowing us to start spending again. We are owned by a family whose wealth continues to rocket upwards. If only this stupid FFP allowed them to spend their money.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Dec 20, 2020 11:58:30 GMT
However in our case I don’t think the football club ever owned the ground so we were never in a position to sell it. My understanding is the ground is owned by Stoke City Holdings Ltd a separate company to the Football Club (albeit the major shareholder) and the major shareholder of Stoke City Holdings is bet365. I think SCH owned the ground since they bought out the City Council’s interest in the mid 2000’s. So even if they could (under FFP rules) the sale of the ground to anyone wouldn’t benefit the club simply the owners ie bet365 and ultimately the Coates family. I think. Yes I believe thats true the main reason is I think bet365 didn't own 100% of Stoke City so if they put the ground into the football club they would effectively have given away part of the ground for nothing. The other thing on Derby its a one time trick and in the end leaves them a little worse off each year as they have to pay a commercial rent each year to justify the sale price otherwise the EFL would not accept it. [/quote bet365 own about 99% of Stoke City. There are a few VERY SMALL shareholders left over from the old days before the Icelanders bought the majority share of the club. 99% ownership means that bet365 can behave as if they owned 100% - there is no way any other shareholders can influence their decisions.
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Post by magwitch on Dec 20, 2020 11:59:07 GMT
Those who think that Brexit has nothing to do with politics are somewhat naive in my opinion. It is about a clash of cultures, as is the clash between the tories and the largely labour leaning trade unions, and similar OFFICIAL bodies like the EFL. FFP is an attempt to impose a level playing field on the Football League, and where does that sort of thinking come from ?
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Post by march4 on Dec 20, 2020 12:01:30 GMT
Those who think that Brexit has nothing to do with politics are somewhat naive in my opinion. It is about a clash of cultures, as is the clash between the tories and the largely labour leaning trade unions, and similar OFFICIAL bodies like the EFL. FPP is an attempt to impose a level playing field on the Football League, and where does that sort of thinking come from ? It stops Stoke signing Messi, Ronaldo and Suarez. Our owners could afford that from the loose change down the back of the sofa and yet the stupid FFP rules would deny Championship supporters from seeing these three play.
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Post by sportsman on Dec 20, 2020 12:03:40 GMT
Those who think that Brexit has nothing to do with politics are somewhat naive in my opinion. It is about a clash of cultures, as is the clash between the tories and the largely labour leaning trade unions, and similar OFFICIAL bodies like the EFL. FFP is an attempt to impose a level playing field on the Football League, and where does that sort of thinking come from ? You mean a bit like all over the years when uefa have done and tried everything to stop the Premier league and its clubs from even daring to do well in Europe against thr likes of Barcelona and Real Madrid
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Post by followyoudown on Dec 20, 2020 12:31:44 GMT
Yes I believe thats true the main reason is I think bet365 didn't own 100% of Stoke City so if they put the ground into the football club they would effectively have given away part of the ground for nothing. The other thing on Derby its a one time trick and in the end leaves them a little worse off each year as they have to pay a commercial rent each year to justify the sale price otherwise the EFL would not accept it. [/quote bet365 own about 99% of Stoke City. There are a few VERY SMALL shareholders left over from the old days before the Icelanders bought the majority share of the club. 99% ownership means that bet365 can behave as if they owned 100% - there is no way any other shareholders can influence their decisions. Please note my careful use of didn't not don't the ground was bought in 2006 from memory, at that stage I think Phil Rawlins still owned a significant minority share and there may have been others, the ground cost £6m Phil at one point had a 10% share, if the ground had been put into the football club his shares would have been worth more as they had a new £6m asset he had paid nothing for which is I think why they put the ground into a separate 100% bet 365 owned company.
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Post by onefatcopper on Dec 20, 2020 12:34:42 GMT
The potential new Derby owners will only be able to invest if they get promoted so I don’t get the question🤔 Apparently their are several Middle Eastern companies who have suddenly expressed a wish to sponsor Derby so FFP won't be an issue I'm told. A Saudi royal prince had prolonged talks to purchase NUFC, but when a history of the abuse of human rights involving the Prince came to light he soon pulled the plug, so nothing is ever cut and dry.
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Post by walton corner on Dec 20, 2020 12:34:47 GMT
She will once Peter passes away ...she will do it straight after the funeral ....hopefully years away though
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Post by somersetstokie on Dec 20, 2020 12:59:40 GMT
Do we know much about Denise? I've never met her. You actually make her sound like an arrogant self centred Cow.
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Post by tosh on Dec 20, 2020 13:48:49 GMT
She will once Peter passes away ...she will do it straight after the funeral ....hopefully years away though That’s an alarmist prediction ... her brother and her husband are Stoke fans ...are you related to Professor Whitty?
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Post by onefatcopper on Dec 20, 2020 14:38:23 GMT
She will once Peter passes away ...she will do it straight after the funeral ....hopefully years away though That’s an alarmist prediction ... her brother and her husband are Stoke fans ...are you related to Professor Whitty? First and foremost she’s a business woman who is indulging her Daddy’s hobby, the business woman may come into the play after the sad passing of her father. Stoke City is a small part of the Bet365 empire, and unfortunately it’s about the only part that is haemorrhaging money with little prospect of any return. And so Stoke city has the sword of Damocles hanging above it, will Denise continue to fund the club in her fathers memory, in a trust to the Stoke on Trent community, or will she decide that the club is just a financial millstone around Bet365s neck and pull the plug ?
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Post by danceswithclams on Dec 20, 2020 16:16:13 GMT
Those who think that Brexit has nothing to do with politics are somewhat naive in my opinion. It is about a clash of cultures, as is the clash between the tories and the largely labour leaning trade unions, and similar OFFICIAL bodies like the EFL. FFP is an attempt to impose a level playing field on the Football League, and where does that sort of thinking come from ? Fuck me 🙄
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Dec 20, 2020 16:30:03 GMT
Those who think that Brexit has nothing to do with politics are somewhat naive in my opinion. It is about a clash of cultures, as is the clash between the tories and the largely labour leaning trade unions, and similar OFFICIAL bodies like the EFL. FFP is an attempt to impose a level playing field on the Football League, and where does that sort of thinking come from ? Fuck me 🙄 Not tonight Josephine.
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Post by followyoudown on Dec 20, 2020 16:30:15 GMT
Changes to FFP altbough I read it twice and still don't completely understand it......
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Post by followyoudown on Dec 20, 2020 16:36:13 GMT
That’s an alarmist prediction ... her brother and her husband are Stoke fans ...are you related to Professor Whitty? First and foremost she’s a business woman who is indulging her Daddy’s hobby, the business woman may come into the play after the sad passing of her father. Stoke City is a small part of the Bet365 empire, and unfortunately it’s about the only part that is haemorrhaging money with little prospect of any return. And so Stoke city has the sword of Damocles hanging above it, will Denise continue to fund the club in her fathers memory, in a trust to the Stoke on Trent community, or will she decide that the club is just a financial millstone around Bet365s neck and pull the plug ? You don't make money running a football club, you make money selling one to get the money back they would need to be trying to sell a premier league club.
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Post by kustokie on Dec 20, 2020 16:38:57 GMT
Those who think that Brexit has nothing to do with politics are somewhat naive in my opinion. It is about a clash of cultures, as is the clash between the tories and the largely labour leaning trade unions, and similar OFFICIAL bodies like the EFL. FPP is an attempt to impose a level playing field on the Football League, and where does that sort of thinking come from ? It stops Stoke signing Messi, Ronaldo and Suarez. Our owners could afford that from the loose change down the back of the sofa and yet the stupid FFP rules would deny Championship supporters from seeing these three play. The FFP rules are intended to level the playing field(no pun intended) by preventing rich owners pumping unlimited amounts cash into the club. However, it does not prevent owners and sponsors playing outrageous amounts of money for advertising and sponsorship.
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Post by onefatcopper on Dec 20, 2020 18:03:58 GMT
First and foremost she’s a business woman who is indulging her Daddy’s hobby, the business woman may come into the play after the sad passing of her father. Stoke City is a small part of the Bet365 empire, and unfortunately it’s about the only part that is haemorrhaging money with little prospect of any return. And so Stoke city has the sword of Damocles hanging above it, will Denise continue to fund the club in her fathers memory, in a trust to the Stoke on Trent community, or will she decide that the club is just a financial millstone around Bet365s neck and pull the plug ? You don't make money running a football club, you make money selling one to get the money back they would need to be trying to sell a premier league club. Even with Premier League status Stoke City would not be a attractive purchase for any multi billionaires looking to buy a football club. We are hamstrung by the outstanding loans owed to Bet365, would Bet365 be willing to write off these loans or even a percentage to encourage a sale ? Then there’s the price of the club (stadium,academy & players) the cost of rebuilding the playing staff to enable us to be competitive, and all of a sudden those zeroes are spinning ! After a decade of premier league football and all benefits that come with it what was the reward ? In that decade we made a small profit once !
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Post by santy on Dec 20, 2020 18:50:18 GMT
The original decision was a form of protection against any slip ups/oversights or issues in the future as such. Having the stadium & training ground separate from the club means whatever happens with one wouldn't immediately impact the other in terms of financial liabilities. So if the club had massively overspent and taken out third party loans they couldn't get ownership of the stadium.
On the flip side, if say the ground was damaged in some way and the insurance wasn't covering it due to some oversight, the club are only tenants and so there wouldn't be financial obligations on the club to put it right such as through say selling off their best players.
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Post by onefatcopper on Dec 20, 2020 19:51:14 GMT
The original decision was a form of protection against any slip ups/oversights or issues in the future as such. Having the stadium & training ground separate from the club means whatever happens with one wouldn't immediately impact the other in terms of financial liabilities. So if the club had massively overspent and taken out third party loans they couldn't get ownership of the stadium. On the flip side, if say the ground was damaged in some way and the insurance wasn't covering it due to some oversight, the club are only tenants and so there wouldn't be financial obligations on the club to put it right such as through say selling off their best players. That’s a very clever way for the sporting aspect (Stoke City FC) to have limited liability on properties owned by Stoke Holdings, but how would this entice a buyer if Bet365(Denise) decided to sell the club ? Would it be just the sporting aspect & assets (players) or the whole package e.g Stoke City FC, players, Stadium & Clayton woods ?
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Post by cr4zyd4ve on Dec 20, 2020 20:01:45 GMT
That’s an alarmist prediction ... her brother and her husband are Stoke fans ...are you related to Professor Whitty? First and foremost she’s a business woman who is indulging her Daddy’s hobby, the business woman may come into the play after the sad passing of her father. Stoke City is a small part of the Bet365 empire, and unfortunately it’s about the only part that is haemorrhaging money with little prospect of any return. And so Stoke city has the sword of Damocles hanging above it, will Denise continue to fund the club in her fathers memory, in a trust to the Stoke on Trent community, or will she decide that the club is just a financial millstone around Bet365s neck and pull the plug ? I am of the firm belief it is the latter. I do not think that she has any time for the football club at all. The only person who would sway her is her brother and I think he would have to make one hell of a convincing argument!!
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Post by somersetstokie on Dec 20, 2020 20:40:33 GMT
Surely he'd just take her down the pub for a chat!
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Post by longdistancekiddie on Dec 20, 2020 21:05:01 GMT
Shit bin
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Post by AlliG on Dec 20, 2020 21:06:19 GMT
It stops Stoke signing Messi, Ronaldo and Suarez. Our owners could afford that from the loose change down the back of the sofa and yet the stupid FFP rules would deny Championship supporters from seeing these three play. The FFP rules are intended to level the playing field(no pun intended) by preventing rich owners pumping unlimited amounts cash into the club. However, it does not prevent owners and sponsors playing outrageous amounts of money for advertising and sponsorship.Actually, they do exactly that. Bet365 could not agree a £100m a year shirt sponsorship deal with Stoke. Any deals agreed by the owners have to at least appear to be economically realistic.
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Post by pushon on Dec 20, 2020 21:12:43 GMT
Perhaps more important is the question. What happens when she decides to cash in on Bet365?
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Post by bingbang on Dec 20, 2020 21:18:19 GMT
Why shit bin perfectly good question
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Post by nottsover60 on Dec 20, 2020 21:21:26 GMT
The FFP rules are intended to level the playing field(no pun intended) by preventing rich owners pumping unlimited amounts cash into the club. However, it does not prevent owners and sponsors playing outrageous amounts of money for advertising and sponsorship.Actually, they do exactly that. Bet365 could not agree a £100m a year shirt sponsorship deal with Stoke. Any deals agreed by the owners have to at least appear to be economically realistic. As bet 365 are owners of the club they couldn't however if a third party were willing to pay that amount in shirt sponsorship there would be no problem. Hence Derby's confidence that they will have plenty of money to spend without breaking FFP once the take over goes through. Mind you it does seem to be taking a very long time as they got approval at least a month ago and I was told everything was agreed just waiting for the money to arrive. Could it all fall to pieces?
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Dec 20, 2020 21:23:43 GMT
The original decision was a form of protection against any slip ups/oversights or issues in the future as such. Having the stadium & training ground separate from the club means whatever happens with one wouldn't immediately impact the other in terms of financial liabilities. So if the club had massively overspent and taken out third party loans they couldn't get ownership of the stadium. On the flip side, if say the ground was damaged in some way and the insurance wasn't covering it due to some oversight, the club are only tenants and so there wouldn't be financial obligations on the club to put it right such as through say selling off their best players. That’s a very clever way for the sporting aspect (Stoke City FC) to have limited liability on properties owned by Stoke Holdings, but how would this entice a buyer if Bet365(Denise) decided to sell the club ? Would it be just the sporting aspect & assets (players) or the whole package e.g Stoke City FC, players, Stadium & Clayton woods ? I'd presume that bet365 would probably try to sell the club and the stadium to the same buyer. After all the stadium is worth more to a football club than it is to anyone else. As development land it isn't hugely valuable given that there would be a massive demoition job before it could be redeveloped for any other use. Assuming any buyer of the club also bought the stadium, it would then be up to them as to how (or if) they divided the ownership of their purchase.
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Post by heworksardtho on Dec 20, 2020 21:24:51 GMT
So FFP is to stop any team breaking into the top 6 of the prem
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Post by bagnallboothen on Dec 20, 2020 21:28:22 GMT
That’s a very clever way for the sporting aspect (Stoke City FC) to have limited liability on properties owned by Stoke Holdings, but how would this entice a buyer if Bet365(Denise) decided to sell the club ? Would it be just the sporting aspect & assets (players) or the whole package e.g Stoke City FC, players, Stadium & Clayton woods ? I'd presume that bet365 would probably try to sell the club and the stadium to the same buyer. After all the stadium is worth more to a football club than it is to anyone else. As development land it isn't hugely valuable given that there would be a massive demoition job before it could be redeveloped for any other use. Assuming any buyer of the club also bought the stadium, it would then be up to them as to how (or if) they divided the ownership of their purchase. Why has everyone ignored the fact John Coates is a major share holder at bet365 and could afford the club without Denise?
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